Police State USA

Irish#1

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This story?

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/...ce/6225702002/

I read a few articles on this one. My instinct is to believe the police (edit: not so sure things were pretty sketchy on their part as I read more) but it doesn't seem like they proved the victim shot first, hence the protests and lawsuit?

That's it. They didn't just shoot him without provocation. IIRC a grand jury found there was no cause to indict the officer. If you're the police and someone raises a gun, do you wait to see if they hit you before firing? Why run and put yourself in that position?
 

NorthDakota

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Biden has now suggested he has a horse in the verdict. Idk what its like being in the jury, or if there is any risk of that getting to the jury, but this shit isn't good for anyone.

Minneapolis paper published profiles on the jurors, gave some background on each of them. I'm not sure how much of that is public information but it seems pretty f'ing bad to describe a juror as being a young mixed-race girl from northern Minnesota whose uncle in a Brainerd cop.

^ Brainerd is not a big town. Like 15k. It is not outlandish to think someone could figure out who the girl is.
 

RDU Irish

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You quite literally just spelled out the definition of victim blaming. Here's the deal:

If police are in a situation where they're being fired upon or someone is attacking them with a deadly weapon, and those police respond with deadly force, virtually no one complains about police misconduct and everyone rallies around law enforcement.

In your comment you highlighted 6 areas to blame victims:

1) Criminal behavior
2) Resisting arrest
3) Attempting to flee
4) Fighting with police
5) Obey lawful commands
6) Brandishing weapons

Numbers 1, 2, 3, and 5 almost never require excessive force, and certainly not deadly force. There's more gray area in number 4 and even more in number 6. Lumping in 1, 2, 3, and 5 as justification for a shooting is exactly part of the problem with police. For most of the country understanding this problem is elementary to American justice.

The problem with the Victim Blaming crowd is that when there are accusations of police misconduct there's a reflex to act like law enforcement are always in situations where excessive/deadly force is necessary--and when that runs counter to the facts as we're seeing clearly with Adam Toledo--the next step is to blame the victim even further to a more personal degree (he was a gang member, dealt drugs, used drugs, had a record, where were the parents, etc) and other tropes with racist origins to excuse police misconduct.

Just in the last 2 pages of this thread on Toledo's shooting we have such comments as:

"But his nickname was Lil' Homicide."
"Mother was not mothering."
"Gangbanger."
"Sympathy goes to the officer."
"Not all heroes wear capes."
"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
"Would've been killed by another gang member anyway."

Zero moderate voices in this thread are saying these things. It's exclusively right-wing posters. It makes you wonder why? If right-wingers wanted to stick to the defense that Chicago is dangerous and it was a difficult situation with Toledo dropping the gun at the last second, that's acceptable. But, they're taken it even further with the vilification of the victim. Again, why?

In many of these cases, the more personal the victim blaming gets the greater the relationship between police misconduct. In the year 2021, if you see a white person using the term "gangbanger" in regards to an incident it's a dead give away where their motivation is w/r/t police and shootings. Americans with empathy don't need to say these things if the facts of the case line up in favor of the police.

If anyone made those above comments and they worked for Notre Dame, they'd likely be fired (oh no cancel culture!).

And yet, the handful of posters who made them will complain about the media going overboard and that it's the media's fault that they're bringing race into it to stoke the fire when in reality you can't find a more politicizing event than excessive victim blaming after shootings. Thick irony. Police reform will continue to be impossible when such a large bloc of voters think victim blaming is okay (even encouraged, especially within police themselves) and that less victim blaming means those against it are the greatest victims of all.

The dead 7 year old in the McDs drive through is a VICTIM - keep granting sainthood to criminals though. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes is the story of pretty much every BLM martyr while the dead kids at McDs are ignored..
 

RDU Irish

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Given all that, shooting rates per police encounter in the US are higher in suburbs and rural areas than in cities. Which means even if you accept that places like Chicago, etc. are beyond saving in their current format, there are a lot of other police involved shootings that have nothing to do with policing dangerous crime/gang infested cities.

I never saw that story and I thought NY Post was a garbage tabloid rag that got banned from Twitter?
 

GowerND11

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The dead 7 year old in the McDs drive through is a VICTIM - keep granting sainthood to criminals though. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes is the story of pretty much every BLM martyr while the dead kids at McDs are ignored..

I see you still don't understand what some of these guys are saying...
 

TorontoGold

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The dead 7 year old in the McDs drive through is a VICTIM - keep granting sainthood to criminals though. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes is the story of pretty much every BLM martyr while the dead kids at McDs are ignored..

Communist rag CNN has a story https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/19/us/chicago-shooting-7-year-old/index.html

Would you like to share your sympathies for the dead child, or is it purely just a prop to distract for a 13 year old kid being killed? Some reports are saying it's gang related, if the father was in a gang, then yolo who cares stupid prize. Right?
 
N

ND88

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The dead 7 year old in the McDs drive through is a VICTIM - keep granting sainthood to criminals though. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes is the story of pretty much every BLM martyr while the dead kids at McDs are ignored..

The ignorance level of this comment is ... well, what’s the point of explaining? Seriously, there isn’t a point. You’re gonna see and justify the way you want to see and justify. This is America.
 

drayer54

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I'm confused as to why we're comparing Toledo and the drive-thru tragedy?
 

RDU Irish

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Sorry... last update here as it just sucks but it seems more and more like it was an accident that occured in the house and the 14 yo did it but tried to make it look like my cousins fault so they are charging him with manslaughter and tampering with crime scene. :(

Just a shitty situation all around. Prayers to you and your family Cack.
 

RDU Irish

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I'm confused as to why we're comparing Toledo and the drive-thru tragedy?

Just trying to define the term "victim" - which is apparently horrible and offensive to most. I will concede the 13 year old was a victim of negligent parenting and cultural rot. Who TF is putting a hand gun in the hands of a 13 y/o at 3 AM? Put that community on trial, not the cop. Our society will never get serious about removing both of those children from dangerous home environments.
 

RDU Irish

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The ignorance level of this comment is ... well, what’s the point of explaining? Seriously, there isn’t a point. You’re gonna see and justify the way you want to see and justify. This is America.

Right back at ya. Sorry so many have chugged the BLM kool-aid and don't see it for the race baiting sham that it is. March on some dangerous shithole after a kid gets killed by gang-banger cross fire for just once and I will consider an ounce of respect for the "movement".

I don't like or trust cops - so I should engage in behavior that increases my likelihood of interacting with them? I am all for better methods of swifter, fairer, more cost effective ways of implementing our "justice" system.

Lax makes some great points in here that are rooted in granting too much power with cost prohibitive recourse to law enforcement. Power corrupts and the system protects their own. At the point and time you find yourself in court, you have already lost - whether it is the local po-po or the FBI that put you there. If you don't have money you are F-ed. If you have money (or know the right folks) you can get away with murder.
 

ab2cmiller

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Evidently Joe wanted to ensure riots in case Maxine Waters attempts were not enough.

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/GeoffRBennett/status/1384543335164137472[/TWEET]
 

Irish#1

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I suspect there will be some rioting regardless of the decision. If guilty, not guilty enough if that makes sense. Let's pray for peace.
 

drayer54

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House Democrats support violence and jury intimidation- [TWEET]https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1384606859345211394?s=20[/TWEET]
 

Cackalacky2.0

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Guilty all accounts
Second-degree murder — unintentional is defined as causing death without intent to do so, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense. The maximum sentence for second-degree murder is 40 years.

Third-degree murder is causing death to an individual by "perpetrating an act imminently dangerous to others and evidencing a depraved mind without regard for human life," but without the intent to cause death. It carries a maximum sentence of 25 years.

Second-degree manslaughter is causing the death of another by "culpable negligence, creating an unreasonable risk" in which the defendant "consciously takes the risk of causing death or great bodily harm to another individual." It carries a maximum sentence of 10 years.
 
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tussin

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Guilty all accounts
Second-degree murder — unintentional is defined as causing death without intent to do so, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense. The maximum sentence for second-degree murder is 40 years.

Third-degree murder is causing death to an individual by "perpetrating an act imminently dangerous to others and evidencing a depraved mind without regard for human life," but without the intent to cause death. It carries a maximum sentence of 25 years.

Second-degree manslaughter is causing the death of another by "culpable negligence, creating an unreasonable risk" in which the defendant "consciously takes the risk of causing death or great bodily harm to another individual." It carries a maximum sentence of 10 years.

I’m certainly no lawyer, but this is a surprising outcome to me if considering the evidence only. I felt that the second degree murder charge would be very difficult to prove and don’t understand how the third-degree charge can be charged by definition. The manslaughter charge was a toss-up leaning towards convict.

You have to think that the societal context of the outcome led to some Minneapolis-native jurors to vote guilty on all three.
 

Cackalacky2.0

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A bunch of horns are going off in my area, a lot of people are taking this in. This is a very white area FWIW.

Yeah IDK about celebrating but watching that video and coming away with a personal assessment of anything less than straight up murder is interesting. Especially watching th edefense throw the kitchen sink at causes other than the obvious nature of his demise.
 

Cackalacky2.0

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I’m certainly no lawyer, but this is a surprising outcome to me if considering the evidence only. I felt that the second degree murder charge would be very difficult to prove and don’t understand how the third-degree charge can be charged by definition. The manslaughter charge was a toss-up leaning towards convict.

You have to think that the societal context of the outcome led to some Minneapolis-native jurors to vote guilty on all three.

Not a lawyer either obviously but i tried to put myself in there as a juror and I think I could see all of those having been met. I think if you can show Count 1 then count 3 follows. Count 2 for sure just by using his knee on his neck and refusing anyone to check on him, contra to police training etc...Negligence (unintention or not) leading to death.
 

drayer54

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Not surprised. That was a brief deliberation and the jurors knew what was on the line.

Hopefully, the community remains intact tonight. Wouldn't be shocked if the outside influences come up in an appeals process, but doubt it goes anywhere significant. Curious how the sentencing will be. If it's like any other criminal in America, it will likely be light and he'll be out in no time.
 

drayer54

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[TWEET]https://twitter.com/Phil_Lewis_/status/1384624260698812416?s=20[/TWEET]

Endorsing Maxine's incitement of violence clearly had her in a good mood. Missed opportunity for wearing the kente cloth again.
 
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