Police State USA

[Irish#1]

Yeah I think that this incident -- again -- underscores one of the major issues with policing in the United States. It's almost unthinkable that in other peer countries that cops called to a domestic dispute would end up shooting someone 7 times in the back for trying to get into their car. In front of their children, no less.

Police in the United States go through less training than in many other countries, and I think that routinely rears its ugly head when incidents like this occur. There is no scenario where with 3 officers and 1 unarmed person that properly trained officers should not have been able to subdue him without the need to shoot him repeatedly in the back.

Agree. The answer isn't get rid of the police. Its make the police better.

Better training no doubt. I'm also a proponent for improving the hiring process with better psychological evaluations and continue those on a regular basis once on the force.

 

[Legacy]

The guy may have been paralyzed. That's too bad.

Better training. He hasn't had use of deadly force training annually with scenarios and going over the manual.

This is an isolated incident.

Psych exam? Really? You think he has a mental disorder? A rage problem? Racist? Afraid? Which one of those keeps this cop off the street.

States need to make it easier to pull a cop's license, to hold them accountable, to create real oversight boards while eliminating internal reviews, to let State's AGs determine if a crime was committed.

Get rid of police unions if they are detrimental to the safety of the citizens they are supposed to serve. Be loud and clear. The alternative is getting unthinkable.

In a link I previously posted, James Comey said to a law enforcement group in 2015:

With the death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, the death of Eric Garner in Staten Island, the ongoing protests throughout the country, and the assassinations of NYPD Officers Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos, we are at a crossroads. As a society, we can choose to live our everyday lives, raising our families and going to work, hoping that someone, somewhere, will do something to ease the tension—to smooth over the conflict. We can roll up our car windows, turn up the radio and drive around these problems, or we can choose to have an open and honest discussion about what our relationship is today—what it should be, what it could be, and what it needs to be—if we took more time to better understand one another.

Serious debates are taking place about how law enforcement personnel relate to the communities they serve, about the appropriate use of force, and about real and perceived biases, both within and outside of law enforcement. These are important debates. Every American should feel free to express an informed opinion—to protest peacefully, to convey frustration and even anger in a constructive way. That’s what makes our democracy great. Those conversations—as bumpy and uncomfortable as they can be—help us understand different perspectives, and better serve our communities. Of course, these are only conversations in the true sense of that word if we are willing not only to talk, but to listen, too.

In the words of Dr. King, “We must learn to live together as brothers or we will all perish together as fools.”

We all have work to do—hard work, challenging work—and it will take time. We all need to talk and we all need to listen, not just about easy things, but about hard things, too. Relationships are hard. Relationships require work. So let’s begin that work. It is time to start seeing one another for who and what we really are. Peace, security, and understanding are worth the effort.

 

[drayer54]

Remember the controversial Judge Walker?

Judge Justin Walker, soon to be on the D.C. Court of Appeals, rules against granting qualified immunity in a police misconduct case. This judge's opinions are a joy to read.
https://reason.com/2020/08/24/qualified-immunity-strip-search-muffin-mom-kentucky/

 

[Legacy]

Decertification

Decertification

We found 85,000 cops who’ve been investigated for misconduct. Now you can read their records.
In 2019, USA TODAY led a national effort to publish disciplinary records for police officers. George Floyd's death has renewed calls for transparency (USA Today)

Obtained from thousands of state agencies, prosecutors, police departments and sheriffs, the records detail at least 200,000 incidents of alleged misconduct, much of it previously unreported. The records obtained include more than 110,000 internal affairs investigations by hundreds of individual departments and more than 30,000 officers who were decertified by 44 state oversight agencies.

Among the findings:

- Most misconduct involves routine infractions, but the records reveal tens of thousands of cases of serious misconduct and abuse. They include 22,924 investigations of officers using excessive force, 3,145 allegations of rape, child molestation and other sexual misconduct and 2,307 cases of domestic violence by officers.

- Dishonesty is a frequent problem. The records document at least 2,227 instances of perjury, tampering with evidence or witnesses or falsifying reports. There were 418 reports of officers obstructing investigations, most often when they or someone they knew were targets.

- Less than 10% of officers in most police forces get investigated for misconduct. Yet some officers are consistently under investigation. Nearly 2,500 have been investigated on 10 or more charges. Twenty faced 100 or more allegations yet kept their badge for years.

The level of oversight varies widely from state to state. Georgia and Florida decertified thousands of police officers for everything from crimes to questions about their fitness to serve; other states banned almost none.

USA Today has made their database public:
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/n...untability-records-ever-assembled/2299127002/

Wisconsin started this in 2017. The way it works:

The Wisconsin Department of Justice requires law enforcement agencies to report when officers resign amid an internal investigation, quit in lieu of termination or are fired for cause.
The Justice Department will warn agencies about the officers should they seek employment elsewhere, according to Christopher Domagalski, chairman of the state Law Enforcement Standards Board, which oversees training and certification of police officers in the state.

They have a searchable database of those officers who've had their license pulled.

 

[Legacy]

From http://www.aele.org/revocation-slu.html

The most common state legislative and administrative approach for addressing police misconduct, which is largely unknown to scholars and the public even though it has been adopted by forty-three states, involves revocation of the officer�s state certificate or license n4 that is issued upon successful completion of state-mandated training. As opposed to termination of employment by a local department, which does not prevent the officer from being rehired by a different department, revocation of the certificate prevents the officer from continuing to serve in law enforcement in the state. n5 A state agency, typically called a Peace Officer Standards and Training Commission (POST), n6 has the authority to hold hearings and impose sanctions against [*543] police officers n7 that have engaged in serious misconduct as defined in the statute or regulation. Known as revocation, n8 decertification n9 or cancellation, n10 [*544] this practice has the advantage of insuring that officers cannot continue to practice their profession in the state by suspending or removing state certification. It treats the police profession like any other - if minimum standards of performance are not met, the person loses the privilege of continuing in the profession. n11 Although the focus of this article is on misconduct in the course of the officer�s official duties, grounds for revocation encompass a wide range of activities, including off-duty misconduct. As is true for other professions, a sanction short of revocation is often provided. Florida, for example, provides for revocation, suspension or placement on probationary status for up to two years, retraining and issuance of a reprimand. n12 Except in the case of so-called constitutional officers who hold elective offices, such as sheriffs or constables, revocation applies to everyone - from patrolman to chief. And as discussed below, many state POSTs have jurisdiction over these elected officials. n13�

 

[yankeehater]

I have. But interesting focus by you nonetheless. I suppose you think Floyd's death was just unfortunate use of police procedure and that the shooting of Jacob Blake merits administrative leave until he is cleared internally. Was Blake a suspect for some crime? Or just there to help defuse the situation and pick up his kids? The police don't have body cams there.

Somehow and someway we need to break the cycle.

Rinse and repeat.

Comment on the issue(s) if you wish.

Legacy, I am not sure how much research you do before posting, but you seem to be either intentionally or not be devoid of facts. Yes, Jacob Blake was a suspect for multiple felonies. They did not stumble on him by chance and he was armed with a knife at the time of being shot. The most recent 911 call was because he threatened multiple people with a gun. The police did a felony stop and tried unsuccessfully to apprehend him with non lethal force. With knife in hand, he returned to his driver side door and looked to be reaching for something. There are multiple videos you can view and not just the edited 7-8 second original. You can hear the police ordering him to drop the knife as he walks back around the car to open the door.

Also someone pointed out about the police shooting Blake with his kids in the car. Yes, that is tragic, but I am sure that doesn't always stop people from committing crimes.

 

[yankeehater]

It is amazing how most people react without knowing the facts. 75% of the posts in the last 24 hours have already been proven false.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Legacy, I am not sure how much research you do before posting, but you seem to be either intentionally or not be devoid of facts. Yes, Jacob Blake was a suspect for multiple felonies. They did not stumble on him by chance and he was armed with a knife at the time of being shot. The most recent 911 call was because he threatened multiple people with a gun. The police did a felony stop and tried unsuccessfully to apprehend him with non lethal force. With knife in hand, he returned to his driver side door and looked to be reaching for something. There are multiple videos you can view and not just the edited 7-8 second original. You can hear the police ordering him to drop the knife as he walks back around the car to open the door.

Also someone pointed out about the police shooting Blake with his kids in the car. Yes, that is tragic, but I am sure that doesn't always stop people from committing crimes.

From what I've read, he also told police he had a gun in the car.

 

[SonofOahu]

From what I've read, he also told police he had a gun in the car.

Yeah, but what was the context of any of these facts? Was he taking the knife away from the fight? Was he telling the cops he had a gun to alert them to the fact that he was a black, licensed gun owner? That dude in Minnesota told the cops he was licensed to carry and that he had a gun, yet he was still shot.

I haven't followed this story, so I have no idea what the context to any of this is.

 

[Legacy]

Legacy, I am not sure how much research you do before posting, but you seem to be either intentionally or not be devoid of facts. Yes, Jacob Blake was a suspect for multiple felonies. They did not stumble on him by chance and he was armed with a knife at the time of being shot. The most recent 911 call was because he threatened multiple people with a gun. The police did a felony stop and tried unsuccessfully to apprehend him with non lethal force. With knife in hand, he returned to his driver side door and looked to be reaching for something. There are multiple videos you can view and not just the edited 7-8 second original. You can hear the police ordering him to drop the knife as he walks back around the car to open the door.

Also someone pointed out about the police shooting Blake with his kids in the car. Yes, that is tragic, but I am sure that doesn't always stop people from committing crimes.

I do my research. I do not appreciate either being called dishonest nor that I am a liar as well as your implications. So post that information with your source that was available to me when I posted. I do see that Don Jr passed along Andy Ngo's "research", which I shall put in italics until verified. My first post was 8/24/20 at 5 pm.

After the original post, my posts on the 25th were on issues our society face with Comey's quotes and information on decertification and its use.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Yeah, but what was the context of any of these facts? Was he taking the knife away from the fight? Was he telling the cops he had a gun to alert them to the fact that he was a black, licensed gun owner? That dude in Minnesota told the cops he was licensed to carry and that he had a gun, yet he was still shot.

I haven't followed this story, so I have no idea what the context to any of this is.

My understanding from what I've read and seen of the entire video is that the cops were there due to a domestic violence issue, he had a history of violence and assault, he threatened the cops with the knife, refused to comply with orders to put the knife down and deescalate the situation, told them he had a gun in the car in the context of "I'm gonna get it and shoot you" with it, and reached into his car while threatening to get his gun and shoot them. The guy in Minneapolis a year or so ago who got shot in his car appeared to do what he was supposed to do IIRC and the cop messed up.

 

[TorontoGold]

My understanding from what I've read and seen of the entire video is that the cops were there due to a domestic violence issue, he had a history of violence and assault, he threatened the cops with the knife, refused to comply with orders to put the knife down and deescalate the situation, told them he had a gun in the car in the context of "I'm gonna get it and shoot you" with it, and reached into his car while threatening to get his gun and shoot them. The guy in Minneapolis a year or so ago who got shot in his car appeared to do what he was supposed to do IIRC and the cop messed up.

Do you mind posting the source? Everything I've read suggests the opposite and that he was getting in his car because the police were taking care of the situation. Anyways, would like to get more perspective.

 

[Irish#1]

The most recent 911 call was because he threatened multiple people with a gun. The police did a felony stop and tried unsuccessfully to apprehend him with non lethal force. With knife in hand, he returned to his driver side door and looked to be reaching for something. You can hear the police ordering him to drop the knife as he walks back around the car to open the door.

Yeah, but what was the context of any of these facts? Was he taking the knife away from the fight? Was he telling the cops he had a gun to alert them to the fact that he was a black, licensed gun owner? That dude in Minnesota told the cops he was licensed to carry and that he had a gun, yet he was still shot.

I haven't followed this either, but here's where things get iffy. You're the police and ask him to obey. He disobeys and walks to his car. You as the police are already starting to get a sense that he is escalating the situation and something bad may be about to happen. Then he starts to reach into his car. Are you comfortable and confident enough to believe that if he pulls out a gun and starts to shoot that you won't be in danger and you can fire before he does? I have no idea how I would react and it's hard for anyone not in that position to know how they would react. The human element is a big component of these situations and even with the same training you may react a little or a lot different from the other police on the scene. We want to blame the police and this doesn't underscore the tragedy of the incident, but if he obeys the laws and the police, his kids don't witness what they did. I am all for "better policing" and there are many incidents where the police are wrong and need to be held accountable, but we need to stop making criminals look like martyrs.

 

[IrishLax]

Legacy, I am not sure how much research you do before posting, but you seem to be either intentionally or not be devoid of facts. Yes, Jacob Blake was a suspect for multiple felonies. They did not stumble on him by chance and he was armed with a knife at the time of being shot. The most recent 911 call was because he threatened multiple people with a gun. The police did a felony stop and tried unsuccessfully to apprehend him with non lethal force. With knife in hand, he returned to his driver side door and looked to be reaching for something. There are multiple videos you can view and not just the edited 7-8 second original. You can hear the police ordering him to drop the knife as he walks back around the car to open the door.

Also someone pointed out about the police shooting Blake with his kids in the car. Yes, that is tragic, but I am sure that doesn't always stop people from committing crimes.

I would caution against taking any version of the story at face value right now. Cops lie all the time to protect themselves, we recently saw this with Toronto Raptors' president... where the cop and his supervisor pushed a bullshit narrative that was only undone by the presence of a body camera, and it took a year for vindication despite all the resources at this disposal.

There is an object in his hand in the video, besides that fact most everything else is conjecture except for the fact that he got shot 7 times in his back in front of his kids. Hopefully he gets to tell his side of the story, and then we also get the side of the story from the cops, and it can all play out in court. Most reports indicate that he was not the cause of the initial domestic call but rather came later to break it up or grab his kid, and was thereafter stopped by the cops.

There is also no doubt that he resisted arrest. It's also shown in another video (that none of us can vouch for telling the complete story or being accurate) that he initially complies with instructions, before later starting to resist after the first cop gets physical while he's on the ground.

What do none of the cops have here? Body cameras. Would clean up a lot of the uncertainty very quickly.

 

[dublinirish]

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1298548095920164866.html

 

[ab2cmiller]

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1298548095920164866.html

Looks like shooter was a nut case. In each of the shootings, it looks like he shot his gun because he probably felt his life was in danger. Difficult video to watch.

 

[Legacy]

'hater, whatcha got for me about my disregard, ignorance or intentionally ignoring facts that were available to me ?

Again, my first post was 8/24/20 at 6 pm CST.

 

[dublinirish]

Looks like shooter was a nut case. In each of the shootings, it looks like he shot his gun because he probably felt his life was in danger. Difficult video to watch.

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2020/08/26/kenosha-shooting-kyle-rittenhouse-arrested-antioch-fugitive/

He managed to make it home to his house in Illinois before cops came calling for him today. Bizarre

 

[calvegas04]

Looks like shooter was a nut case. In each of the shootings, it looks like he shot his gun because he probably felt his life was in danger. Difficult video to watch.

Yeah no doubt he would have been beat to hell if they had their was with him.

 

[NEIIrish]

Looks like shooter was a nut case. In each of the shootings, it looks like he shot his gun because he probably felt his life was in danger. Difficult video to watch.

The first shooting he was being chased across a parking lot and it looks like the first "victim" threw a molotov at him but it didnt explode. Then the first "victim" kept charging him and it looks like he might have cornered the shooter up against the cars and the shooter fired. Onlookers then rushed in to give medical attention to the "victim" and the shooter was nearby on the phone trying to call someone. Somebody in the crowd yelled to get his ass and the shooter took off running down the street. The shooter looked to get tripped up and a bunch of people approached it looks like someone kicked him while he was on the ground and another man tried to hit him with a skateboard and that person was shot. The last guy came in with a handgun and looked like he lunged at the shooter and got most of his elbow and bicep blown off.

 

[drayer54]

Looks like shooter was a nut case. In each of the shootings, it looks like he shot his gun because he probably felt his life was in danger. Difficult video to watch.

He looked like a dumbass 17-year-old who was excited, anxious, and way too immature to be there. He probably had good intentions, but where the hell are his parents and why didn't someone recognize he needed to be pulled back?

It looks like one of the dead lobbed a Molotov his way, a foot pursuit took place, and then the kid tripped, "victim1" jumped on him and caught a bullet (self-defense?) and then another gentleman is right there and likely bad intentions but puts his hands up with a gun in hands and catches a bullet in the arm (not really self-defense IMHO) and the other one was right there and caught one in the chest ( didn't really look like self-defense).

No sane person should voluntarily walk into this mess. I saw the Facebook groups inviting militia types out yesterday and knew nothing good would come from it. I'm not sure this is going to hang as murder one. Considering he is a minor and that this does not appear to be pre-meditated, I expect this to lower to some less severe charge.

Shame for the dead and that this young man didn't have someone responsible to pull him away.

 

[drayer54]

The first shooting he was being chased across a parking lot and it looks like the first "victim" threw a molotov at him but it didnt explode. Then the first "victim" kept charging him and it looks like he might have cornered the shooter up against the cars and the shooter fired. Onlookers then rushed in to give medical attention to the "victim" and the shooter was nearby on the phone trying to call someone. Somebody in the crowd yelled to get his ass and the shooter took off running down the street. The shooter looked to get tripped up and a bunch of people approached it looks like someone kicked him while he was on the ground and another man tried to hit him with a skateboard and that person was shot. The last guy came in with a handgun and looked like he lunged at the shooter and got most of his elbow and bicep blown off.

It looked like the last guy threw his hands up. I don't see how they justified the charges.

 

[NDRock]

I'm not up to speed on gun laws there but why was a 17 year old allowed to walk around armed with the cops not intervening? I would have thought he would need to be 18.

 

[Legacy]

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2020/08/26/kenosha-shooting-kyle-rittenhouse-arrested-antioch-fugitive/

He managed to make it home to his house in Illinois before cops came calling for him today. Bizarre

The heavily-armed, para-military group who coordinated with police in NM - the Civiil Guard - and who've similarly showed up at protests throughout the state have been sued by the DA and had their FB account taken down. Their response was to "muster", calls for volunteers and communicate where training sites were across the state.

FB has taken down 980 groups, 520 Pages and 160 ads from Facebook Wednesday, and restricted more than 1,400 Instagram hashtags. They do attract the crazies like this kid.

The face-off between one of them and the black militia NFAC and Louisville is concerning as well as to have the cops in Albuquerque radio to all units that the armed individuals on the buildings above the protest marches were "friendlies".

The DA, Raul Torrez, says the group still has the right to assemble, and still has the right to own guns and open carry in New Mexico but they don't have the right to act as police describing them as an "unlicensed and unlawful militia group."

https://www.kob.com/albuquerque-news/district-attorney-files-lawsuit-against-nm-civil-guard/5790971/

 

[NEIIrish]

It looked like the last guy threw his hands up. I don't see how they justified the charges.

He did at first but then lunged like he was trying to take the gun from the kid.

 

[Legacy]

https://milwaukee-criminal-lawyer.com/castle-doctrine-vs-stand-your-ground/

 

[drayer54]

https://milwaukee-criminal-lawyer.com/castle-doctrine-vs-stand-your-ground/

I’m sure the defense team will argue self-defense. They’ll show him running from the attacker (one of them was clearly an attacker) to escape and that man leaping towards him. It’ll get tricker with the second two victims. SYG and self-defense aren’t the same thing. Look at George Zimmerman for example. Zimmerman was a self-defense case. This one will be similar.

I suspect when it goes before the jury, it will be a lesser charge.

 

[NEIIrish]

I’m sure the defense team will argue self-defense. They’ll show him running from the attacker (one of them was clearly an attacker) to escape and that man leaping towards him. It’ll get tricker with the second two victims. SYG and self-defense aren’t the same thing. Look at George Zimmerman for example. Zimmerman was a self-defense case. This one will be similar.

I suspect when it goes before the jury, it will be a lesser charge.

Shouldn’t be any harder to prove self defense on the other two as well. Video clearly shows mob chasing and attacking him after he retreated and fell to the ground.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Shouldn’t be any harder to prove self defense on the other two as well. Video clearly shows mob chasing and attacking him after he retreated and fell to the ground.

You are supposed to take your beating by the mob.

 

[drayer54]

Shouldn’t be any harder to prove self defense on the other two as well. Video clearly shows mob chasing and attacking him after he retreated and fell to the ground.

I suspect this will be the case. There’s plenty of footage for the trial to re-hash this.