Police State USA

[TorontoGold]

When you call it a pandemic lockdown it really doesn't do justice to the destruction and impact of millions of peoples lives, families, and future. Especially, when looking in hindsight, a lot of the lockdown policies across the country were statistically unnecessary to be continued for months on end. Both issues deserve protest. Both issues are/were results of serious mishandling of issues by government officials that led to . When it comes down to the individual, millions of individuals, whose lives were being slowly destructed because of arbitrary rules...that deserves protest. There's no caveat to the right to protest that identifies issues by their perceived seriousness, thats what the right to protest is, the right of an individual to air out their grievances.

And the protests were allowed to happen for both issues. Its the media's response thats frusturating...the crowd that wanted to get back to work was identified as being recklessly spreading the plague with no regard for public health. That narrative dropped for these current protests...completely. Its not even an issue. And, on top of that, many of the political elite and media personalities who demanded that we stayed locked up for the public good did NOT themselves follow those rules, even when they were actually infected. The you follow these rules while we do what we want is what I think really got under a lot of people skin.

Reps - This a good post. I think you're 100% correct that it's incredibly frustrating that there is a certain tone deafness that a lot of the political elite have ex. Nancy Pelosi showing off her freezer while there's huge lineups for food around the country. Like if you're going to tell people to stay in at least show some solidarity with them. I think that's why many on the true left (I say true left, because there's some that say they're on the left but just do that so they can sound progressive) really want her out.

I just think it's doing a disservice to the BLM movement to bring up the lockdown protests at the same time. While valid to complain about the media hypocrisy and political elite, I don't necessarily think it's the time to do it. That's just my personal take and who knows when the "actual right time" is.

 

[Wild Bill]

Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti is cutting $150Mish from police budgets. BLM says it's not enough...

BLM are the real libertarians.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Reps - This a good post. I think you're 100% correct that it's incredibly frustrating that there is a certain tone deafness that a lot of the political elite have ex. Nancy Pelosi showing off her freezer while there's huge lineups for food around the country. Like if you're going to tell people to stay in at least show some solidarity with them. I think that's why many on the true left (I say true left, because there's some that say they're on the left but just do that so they can sound progressive) really want her out.

I just think it's doing a disservice to the BLM movement to bring up the lockdown protests at the same time. While valid to complain about the media hypocrisy and political elite, I don't necessarily think it's the time to do it. That's just my personal take and who knows when the "actual right time" is.

Understandable. You're perfectly entitled to have your opinion that you believe is in best interest to you and your family. But remember, there are also millions of people who are not racist, work everyday, invest their lives in their dreams/business' and low-wage/medium-wage workers that don't have the cushion to withstand not being allowed to work. The lockdown has had drastic negative consequences on their individual lives as well as their communities lives, and that includes workers that are of different races. For those individuals, it may not be PC, but it is certainly not unreasonable for them to want to protest because the consequences of the lockdowns have a much more drastic affect on their lives than the BLM cause.

Thats the problem I have with progressives and the left. The identity politics. The me vs. you. My cause vs your cause. It positions AMERICANS against eachother. There is absolutely no reason that BOTH protests cant be justified albeit for different reasons and possess seriousness/validity for each individual differently depending how it impacts their lives. Each group has justification to protest and the protests should not be pitted against each other in some sort of competition. BLM protestors should support the back to work protestors. back to work protestors should support BLM protestors. Media/politicians should support both not engage in a political power play. The only way these issues get resolved is when all of America works together. The only way it fails is through the tribalism of identify politics. Its a zero sum game assuring mutual destruction.

haha end rant

 

[Irish YJ]

BLM are the real libertarians.

There's so many types of libertarians these days I can't keep count anymore. Which one are you talking about lol

 

[TorontoGold]

Understandable. You're perfectly entitled to have your opinion that you believe is in best interest to you and your family. But remember, there are also millions of people who are not racist, work everyday, invest their lives in their dreams/business' and low-wage/medium-wage workers that don't have the cushion to withstand not being allowed to work. The lockdown has had drastic negative consequences on their individual lives as well as their communities lives, and that includes workers that are of different races. For those individuals, it may not be PC, but it is certainly not unreasonable for them to want to protest because the consequences of the lockdowns have a much more drastic affect on their lives than the BLM cause.

Thats the problem I have with progressives and the left. The identity politics. The me vs. you. My cause vs your cause. It positions AMERICANS against eachother. There is absolutely no reason that BOTH protests cant be justified albeit for different reasons and possess seriousness/validity for each individual differently depending how it impacts their lives. Each group has justification to protest and the protests should not be pitted against each other in some sort of competition. BLM protestors should support the back to work protestors. back to work protestors should support BLM protestors. Media/politicians should support both not engage in a political power play. The only way these issues get resolved is when all of America works together. The only way it fails is through the tribalism of identify politics. Its a zero sum game assuring mutual destruction.

haha end rant

lol amen man, agree completely with you. That's exactly the issue with what I find with some on the Left, not every issue is worth going to war over because eventually the real ones (BLM) get unfairly pushed aside. Pick your damn battles.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti is cutting $150Mish from police budgets. BLM says it's not enough...

Very counterproductive. Study after study have shown that when incidents like this happen and cities scale back the police presence in minority and poor neighborhoods, the crime rate in those neighborhoods soars... at the expense of the law-abiding majority of people who live in them. This is what happens when you make policy decisions based on emotions and who screams the loudest.

 

[Irish YJ]

Very counterproductive. Study after study have shown that when incidents like this happen and cities scale back the police presence in minority and poor neighborhoods, the crime rate in those neighborhoods soars... at the expense of the law-abiding majority of people who live in them. This is what happens when you make policy decisions based on emotions and who screams the loudest.

Yup, this was discussed a few days ago. Whenever something like this happens, policing is reduced, and violence/crime rises in communities post incident. It's circular....

 

[Bluto]

Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti is cutting $150Mish from police budgets. BLM says it's not enough...

In the overall scheme of things 150 million is a drop in the bucket. I mean Jeff Bezos is on his way to becoming a trillionare. Anyhow, reducing police budgets drastically isn’t a bad idea provided society invests in a social structure that would help reduce the drivers for crime in the first place. That is the core argument being made by the “defund the police” crowd.

Seems like a better long term solution to me as opposed to maintaining the status quo.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Yup, this was discussed a few days ago. Whenever something like this happens, policing is reduced, and violence/crime rises in communities post incident. It's circular....

And whos affected the most? Poor minorities that are terrified to let their kids go outside to play and dont have the resources to move...

 

[Irish YJ]

In the overall scheme of things 150 million is a drop in the bucket. I mean Jeff Bezos is on his way to becoming a trillionare. Anyhow, reducing police budgets drastically isn’t a bad idea provided society invests in a social structure that would help reduce the drivers for crime in the first place. That is the core argument being made by the “defund the police” crowd.

Seems like a better long term solution to me as opposed to maintaining the status quo.

It's around 10ish% of their budget, so not a drop in the bucket.

It's an emotional argument right now, not a logical one. Stats clearly show crime and violence rise when policing is reduced. Some of the "peace brigade" recommendations are just off the hook stupid. It should not be funding competition. If there's a worthwhile social program that should be funded, then vote on that. Don't make it X vs Y due to the emotion of the situation.

Hell, move some funding from CA's train to nowhere to some social programs.

 

[Irishize]

There's a fundamental difference between protesting systemic racism or police reform, and protesting a pandemic lockdown. If take out Antifa and the guys with Confederate flags from both sides, the core issues are really apples to oranges.

Sorry I didn’t clarify as I wrongly assumed the tweet thread would be self-explanatory. It’s not being against either protests. Don’t you see the inconsistency of scolding people for asking to attend a funeral of a loved on, accompanying a family member to a chemo visit, celebrating a life event, or fully opening a business to the public in order to avoid bankruptcy. Now imagine those folks seeing thousands flocking the streets w/ nary a word about adversely affecting the entire country w/ an extended lockdown. Either we are sheltering in place/lockdown or we are not. Zero consistency.

 

[TorontoGold]

Sorry I didn’t clarify as I wrongly assumed the tweet thread would be self-explanatory. It’s not being against either protests. Don’t you see the inconsistency of scolding people for asking to attend a funeral of a loved on, accompanying a family member to a chemo visit, celebrating a life event, or fully opening a business to the public in order to avoid bankruptcy. Now imagine those folks seeing thousands flocking the streets w/ nary a word about adversely affecting the entire country w/ an extended lockdown. Either we are sheltering in place/lockdown or we are not. Zero consistency.

Right, but be mad at the Media or the politicians for being inconsistent. Taking out your anger on the BLM supporters is brain dead. It's doing what your (not actually you) accusing the other side of doing (only your cause matters and not theirs).

Ton's of guidance out there that people should be self isolating after attending a protest. Also, the bolded is patently false, each state has lifted restrictions and are moving towards a safe (to be debated in the COVID thread) reopening for their own situation. If the protestors don't self isolate after attending a demonstration, then yeah that's pretty stupid.

 

[Bishop2b5]

In the overall scheme of things 150 million is a drop in the bucket. I mean Jeff Bezos is on his way to becoming a trillionare. Anyhow, reducing police budgets drastically isn’t a bad idea provided society invests in a social structure that would help reduce the drivers for crime in the first place. That is the core argument being made by the “defund the police” crowd.

Seems like a better long term solution to me as opposed to maintaining the status quo.

And yet every time and place this approach has been used, crime and violence go up. This is an unrealistic Utopian fantasy until behavior changes on BOTH sides, not just one.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

In the overall scheme of things 150 million is a drop in the bucket. I mean Jeff Bezos is on his way to becoming a trillionare. Anyhow, reducing police budgets drastically isn’t a bad idea provided society invests in a social structure that would help reduce the drivers for crime in the first place. That is the core argument being made by the “defund the police” crowd.

Seems like a better long term solution to me as opposed to maintaining the status quo.

Totally agree...if the funds are placed in a program/position that actually goes to helping people. Two problems. First, politicians absolutely will not admit that their program, especially programs for low income constituents are failures, theyll spin the failures and double down them demanding more funding is the remedy. A lot of the social programs that were put in place with the best intentions contribute to the mess we have in our innercities. There needs to be acceptance that some of these programs are failures and should be replealed/replaced. Second, the amount of corruption/croney capitalism that comes with massive investments in innercities is sickening. Flat out stealing, inflated union contracts, useless positions-for-friends, and massive spending on "feel good projects" really limit how much money actually gets to people that need it.

I dont remember if it was this site or elsewhere, but someone posted a great article on the thievery that happens in innercities by gov and gov officials/contractors.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Are they asking to defund the police temporarily as a financial motivator for the police to make systematic changes? Once "satisfactory" changes have been made they can be financially restored? Or they are asking them to be defunded so the evil police won't be as prevalent in the community?

 

[Bishop2b5]

Are they asking to defund the police temporarily as a financial motivator for the police to make systematic changes? Once "satisfactory" changes have been made they can be financially restored? Or they are asking them to be defunded so the evil police won't be as prevalent in the community?

Pretty sure it's the latter.

 

[irishff1014]

Very counterproductive. Study after study have shown that when incidents like this happen and cities scale back the police presence in minority and poor neighborhoods, the crime rate in those neighborhoods soars... at the expense of the law-abiding majority of people who live in them. This is what happens when you make policy decisions based on emotions and who screams the loudest.

No matter how hard you try you can't fix stupid.

 

[NDRock]

Very counterproductive. Study after study have shown that when incidents like this happen and cities scale back the police presence in minority and poor neighborhoods, the crime rate in those neighborhoods soars... at the expense of the law-abiding majority of people who live in them. This is what happens when you make policy decisions based on emotions and who screams the loudest.

It’s what happens when politicians worry more about getting re-elected. Sometimes you do what’s best for your community, even if it’s against what the majority (Or loudest voices) wants.

 

[Irishize]

Right, but be mad at the Media or the politicians for being inconsistent. Taking out your anger on the BLM supporters is brain dead. It's doing what your (not actually you) accusing the other side of doing (only your cause matters and not theirs).

Ton's of guidance out there that people should be self isolating after attending a protest. Also, the bolded is patently false, each state has lifted restrictions and are moving towards a safe (to be debated in the COVID thread) reopening for their own situation. If the protestors don't self isolate after attending a demonstration, then yeah that's pretty stupid.

Agreed & I didn’t read it as a screed against BLM it was more towards the nanny state & the media scolding Americans for gatherings. And the bolded was my ironic point (Sarcasm wasn’t directed at you). We were scolded for weeks now about going out & we see what’s happened the past week. Honest question: do you really believe that every protester is going to self-isolate? Those large gatherings (just like Lake of the Ozarks or the Spring Break kids) are probably more dangerous b/c of the sheer volume of people infecting each other.

 

[Irish YJ]

Are they asking to defund the police temporarily as a financial motivator for the police to make systematic changes? Once "satisfactory" changes have been made they can be financially restored? Or they are asking them to be defunded so the evil police won't be as prevalent in the community?

It's not temporary. After reading a few articles on the topic, it's actually not a new idea. What is interesting, is the US is already behind most Euro countries in terms of police per capita. And there's pretty clear studies showing the impact of pulling back policing....

I'd be more interested in defunding world policing.

 

[Irish YJ]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">“Let us welcome, with respect, the mayor of New York City, Bill de Blasio.”<br><br>Crowd answers with loud boos at Brooklyn vigil for George Floyd. <a href="https://t.co/sRjzb8ejYu">https://t.co/sRjzb8ejYu</a> <a href="https://t.co/nrNbNBa4Rl">pic.twitter.com/nrNbNBa4Rl</a></p>— Dan Linden (@DanLinden) <a href="https://twitter.com/DanLinden/status/1268607776135274497?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 4, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[NDRock]

It's not temporary. After reading a few articles on the topic, it's actually not a new idea. What is interesting, is the US is already behind most Euro countries in terms of police per capita. And there's pretty clear studies showing the impact of pulling back policing....

I'd be more interested in defunding world policing.

Just a quick Wiki look and we seem to be in the middle of European countries. Not sure how that breaks down though or how our rural population figures in. Would be interesting as far as the big cities go.

 

[Irish YJ]

Just a quick Wiki look and we seem to be in the middle of European countries. Not sure how that breaks down though or how our rural population figures in. Would be interesting as far as the big cities go.

We're definitely on the lower end. I've listed most Euros and other countries of note.

per 100,000

Russia 623
Spain 533
Greece 503
Hong Kong 483
Mexico 464
Italy 456
Portugal 445
Germany 381
Israel 345
France 340
Belgium 333
Scotland 318
Austria 314
USA 298
Netherlands 295
Ireland 265
England and Wales 211
The Nordics are all lower

US Cites with the highest per capita (top 5)
DC - 680
St. Louis 585
Baltimore 534
Birmingham 525
ATL 495

 

[NDRock]

We're definitely on the lower end. I've listed most Euros and other countries of note.

per 100,000

Russia 623
Spain 533
Greece 503
Hong Kong 483
Mexico 464
Italy 456
Portugal 445
Germany 381
Israel 345
France 340
Belgium 333
Scotland 318
Austria 314
USA 298
Netherlands 295
Ireland 265
England and Wales 211
The Nordics are all lower

US Cites with the highest per capita (top 5)
DC - 680
St. Louis 585
Baltimore 534
Birmingham 525
ATL 495

Nice, that's some MSM type list. Add Mexico but leave out Canada (188). Put in Hong Kong but leave out Japan (234) or China (143). Israel is on but Jordan (256) is off. List England on Wales on the same line, leave off Switzerland (210) and just lump all five Nordic countries on the same line. Your boy Jim Acosta would be proud.

On a serious note, it is interesting to see how our major cities compare to other Western major cities. I'm sure way more goes into than just numbers though. Wonder how policing strategies are different by nation.

 

[Irish YJ]

Nice, that's some MSM type list. Add Mexico but leave out Canada (188). Put in Hong Kong but leave out Japan (234) or China (143). Israel is on but Jordan (256) is off. List England on Wales on the same line, leave off Switzerland (210) and just lump all five Nordic countries on the same line. Your boy Jim Acosta would be proud.

On a serious note, it is interesting to see how our major cities compare to other Western major cities. I'm sure way more goes into than just numbers though. Wonder how policing strategies are different by nation.

The conversation was vs Euros. The closes comps in terms of gov, culture, pop density, etc are Spain, Italy, UK, France, Ireland, etc.. England and Wales stats were lumped in on the list published (NI and Scotland were separated, not sure they didn't have a simply "UK stat"), so not sure what you mean. Are we closer to Israel or Jordan culture wise lol... Jordan has Sharia law... so... China also uses their army to police, and has about 100 different "enforcement" agencies.

The Nordics are very different cultures and settings. Canada pop density is crazy low. CA and Australia are like 10 or less per mile.

 

[Irish YJ]

So, 40+ years of Liberal Mayors, and the two latest Police Chiefs were minorities.

But....

Jeremiah Ellison, Minnesota AG Keith Ellison's son: 'We are going to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department'

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/je...s-son-dismantle-minneapolis-police-department

 

[Circa]

So, 40+ years of Liberal Mayors, and the two latest Police Chiefs were minorities.

But....

Jeremiah Ellison, Minnesota AG Keith Ellison's son: 'We are going to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department'

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/je...s-son-dismantle-minneapolis-police-department

I couldnn't possibly argue. Are you still watching the opinionated networks?

That Is a serious question.





If some of us figure out the facts of the matter, we will be ok. Stop watching the mainstream.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

So, 40+ years of Liberal Mayors, and the two latest Police Chiefs were minorities.

But....

Jeremiah Ellison, Minnesota AG Keith Ellison's son: 'We are going to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department'

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/je...s-son-dismantle-minneapolis-police-department

How people actually elect far left loons like this is beyond me. What can't anyone just pick a middle of the road candidate that uses common sense.

 

[NDRock]

The conversation was vs Euros. The closes comps in terms of gov, culture, pop density, etc are Spain, Italy, UK, France, Ireland, etc.. England and Wales stats were lumped in on the list published (NI and Scotland were separated, not sure they didn't have a simply "UK stat"), so not sure what you mean. Are we closer to Israel or Jordan culture wise lol... Jordan has Sharia law... so... China also uses their army to police, and has about 100 different "enforcement" agencies.

The Nordics are very different cultures and settings. Canada pop density is crazy low. CA and Australia are like 10 or less per mile.

Which was why I wondered why you included Mexico, Hong Kong, Israel, and Russia (partially correct)

 

[Irish YJ]

I couldnn't possibly argue. Are you still watching the opinionated networks?

That Is a serious question.


If some of us figure out the facts of the matter, we will be ok. Stop watching the mainstream.

I try to watch all the networks and read all the sites... and form my own opinion. It's important to understand the narratives that people are attempting to sell.