Police State USA

[kmoose]

The problem is that it isn't about teaching your child, when someone pulls a gun your instincts kick in. I will give you an example.

I worked for a long time in bank management, where you are taught to comply with demands. If someone robs the branch it is pounded into your head over and over to comply, comply, comply (unless they try to take you out of the branch then do whatever the fuck you need to do to have them leave you there). I had a friend who worked in banking for 30 years and was on vacation when she went into a convenience store and when she came out she found a large man (6'3" 250+) breaking into her car and going through her suitcase, instead of responding to her training (which would have been let them have it and call the police from inside the store), she went up to him and said hey that is my stuff, leave it alone. He pulled out a gun and got into his car and drove off. See the thing is you can tell people over and over how to respond in these situations but the truth is that you don't know how people will respond when it happens. While we should teach our children to be respectful we should also hold our police offices to high standards which is to not shoot people in the back when they run away especially if they are not dangerous criminals and if they want to shoot people in the back when they aren't a threat then they are the problem not the person running away. Sorry.

I don't discount your point about instincts, but instincts can be trained out. Elite military units like Seals do it all of the time. Now you can't put your kid through BUDS, but you can consistently reinforce the right way to do things. It is instinct to run from a charging bear, but that doesn't mean that we aren't inundated with the message to not look like prey by turning tail and running.

I also agree about holding officers to higher standards. I have said, repeatedly, that I think we (the people) should be demanding to know more about their training, so that we can understand whether or not something needs to change. But you can't give a carpenter nothing but a box of screwdrivers and staples, and then fire him for not framing the house.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Hyperbole, and conflation are the life blood of this thread.

Someone excused the incident in McKinney based upon PTSD and anxiety symptoms of the police officer that drew his weapon. I don't know. I find it ironic as I see this thread as an outlet for some good people, overstressed by their daily lives, taking recreation by re-packaging their same old prejudices, and using them to club other stressed-out individuals, with their own, different prejudices, over the head!

Relax.

Their are as many good points here as their are good people commenting on this thread!

Remember, if this were a perfect world, we wouldn't even need police, in the first place.

But it isn't.

Of course we should teach our kids to comply with legal orders, and to protect themselves, and insulate themselves from attack, and the best way is to extract themselves from dangerous situations, and limit their risky behavior.

But, hell, what fun is that?

Many good points and perspective have been shared. Kudos to Graham and all of you who risk your lives and psyches daily for others!

The only things I have found objectionable is the same "bigoted black versus white, behavior and mannerisms, etc., that inevitably is brought up by those caught in the '60's. (1860's!)

And the idea that the perspectives are different, old versus young, because somehow, life works as a process changing everything in the same way for everyone. It does not. Some people actually become more actualized, and less cynical as they mature. And that is what we are really talking about here, maturing versus growing old and dying.

The difference in that process, in this thread, fear. Simply. Nothing else.

 

[GoIrish41]

Disagreeing with someone else is not trolling. So please stop using hyperbole to try to attack my character.

Why is it that you always seem to be in an argument with someone in every thread? You mischaracterise people's statements and attack them based on your version of what they "said". Even when multiple people pointed out to you that you were mistaken, you kept pushing your version of my comments about "running away" neglecting to include the part about "as soon as there is an opportunity to do so." You act as if I would advice we my children to tell the cop to fuck off and run away in the middle of a confrontation. You know that is not what I was saying but you kept arguing anyway ... You did not ask for clarification, you assumed the meaning you wanted and attacked me based on that. You are the very definition of a troll -- a contrarian for the sake of continuing the argument. Every non football thread you post in ends with an argument with you at the center of it. Your character is what your character is and it can be seen in many threads. This is not a one-time misunderstanding. It is who you are (or at least who you portray yourself to be). I personally do not think you believe 90 percent of the things you say. It is all about arguing with you.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Really got each others goats, don't you?

 

[kmoose]

Why is it that you always seem to be in an argument with someone in every thread? You mischaracterise people's statements and attack them based on your version of what they "said". Even when multiple people pointed out to you that you were mistaken, you kept pushing your version of my comments about "running away" neglecting to include the part about "as soon as there is an opportunity to do so." You act as if I would advice we my children to tell the cop to fuck offend run away in the middle of a confrontation. You know that is not what I was saying but you kept arguing anyway ... You did not ask for clarification, you assumed the meaning you wanted and attacked me based on that. You are the very definition of a troll -- a contrarian for the sake of continuing the argument. Every non football thread you post in ends with an argument with you at the center of it. Your character is what your character is and it can be seen in many threads. This is not a one-time misunderstanding. It is who you are (or at least who you portray yourself to be). I personally do not think you believe 90 percent of the things you say. It is all about arguing with you.

Because I believe in my convictions, and don't back down from them unless someone can logically convince me otherwise. I don't have a problem with others not sharing my views, but that doesn't mean that I won't openly disagree with them. Your words were

If, for example, my son was one of the boys who that cop shoved to the ground at the pool party I would tell them to follow the instructions. When he pulled the gun out, i would hope that they would get up and sprint in the other direction as soon as they could, no matter what his orders were.

.. "no matter what his orders were" is the portion that I disagree with, and that is all I said.......... it would be stupid to teach your kid to put himself in a position where he is running from a cop who has a weapon drawn, and your instructions to him are to keep running, even if he threatens to shoot you if you don't stop.

If other people have a problem with that, then that's their issue. You have a lot of arguments in the same threads......... so I guess you are a troll, too.

 

[GoIrish41]

Because I believe in my convictions, and don't back down from them unless someone can logically convince me otherwise. I don't have a problem with others not sharing my views, but that doesn't mean that I won't openly disagree with them. Your words were



.. "no matter what his orders were" is the portion that I disagree with, and that is all I said.......... it would be stupid to teach your kid to put himself in a position where he is running from a cop who has a weapon drawn, and your instructions to him are to keep running, even if he threatens to shoot you if you don't stop.

If other people have a problem with that, then that's their issue. You have a lot of arguments in the same threads......... so I guess you are a troll, too.

That cop threw a young man to the ground and then chased another hardened criminal hundreds of yards away--all while acting like a unstable jackass. When he was off to oppress that girl, that would have been the time to get out of Dodge. When he pulled his gun out that just confirmed how unstable he was being. Look at the video. The one kidd who was coming to the girl's aid set a land speed record when he took off when Rambo pulled his gun. Notice he did not get shot in the back. You adding words to amplify what I was saying to fit your argument is stupid. Anyone so inclined can go back and read what I actually said. The cops instructions were to get on the ground and stay there. When he took off to chase someone else, I would have taken my leave -- just as I am about to do with you. People who are acting like asses just because they can do not deserve our attention.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Because I believe in my convictions, and don't back down from them unless someone can logically convince me otherwise. I don't have a problem with others not sharing my views, but that doesn't mean that I won't openly disagree with them. Your words were



.. "no matter what his orders were" is the portion that I disagree with, and that is all I said.......... it would be stupid to teach your kid to put himself in a position where he is running from a cop who has a weapon drawn, and your instructions to him are to keep running, even if he threatens to shoot you if you don't stop.

If other people have a problem with that, then that's their issue. You have a lot of arguments in the same threads......... so I guess you are a troll, too.

As a cop is one of the countries most dangerous cities; telling your kid to run when a cop draws his gun on you is a very bad idea. Tell your kid to remain calm and listen. move slowly. I am not familiar with the community where the pool party fiasco went down but in my city a frighteningly enormous percentage of gun violence and homicides are committed by kids that fall in the 14-17 range. Kids just dont think. I am not a patrolman and i usually respond to the more serious crimes;but I do put kids on the ground real fast. It looks a little too harsh but trust me, it is necessary, if not only for the sole reason of getting control of the situation. Now, running around with your gun out like that is a tactical screwup and really dangerous. I couldnt tell if his finger was on the trigger but still...if you have to run...holster up and move. What if you have to go hands on with someone and they jump out at you, you arent going to get your shot off and probably will get your gun taken. Not to mentioned what if the cop fell and his finger wrapped around the trigger and sent a round down range into a crowd of ppl. Bad decision in my opinion. Hes lucky it ended the way it did.

 

[GoIrish41]

As a cop is one of the countries most dangerous cities; telling your kid to run when a cop draws his gun on you is a very bad idea. Tell your kid to remain calm and listen. move slowly. I am not familiar with the community where the pool party fiasco went down but in my city a frighteningly enormous percentage of gun violence and homicides are committed by kids that fall in the 14-17 range. Kids just dont think. I am not a patrolman and i usually respond to the more serious crimes;but I do put kids on the ground real fast. It looks a little too harsh but trust me, it is necessary, if not only for the sole reason of getting control of the situation. Now, running around with your gun out like that is a tactical screwup and really dangerous. I couldnt tell if his finger was on the trigger but still...if you have to run...holster up and move. What if you have to go hands on with someone and they jump out at you, you arent going to get your shot off and probably will get your gun taken. Not to mentioned what if the cop fell and his finger wrapped around the trigger and sent a round down range into a crowd of ppl. Bad decision in my opinion. Hes lucky it ended the way it did.

That is not what I said. He did not pull the gun on the kid I was talking about. The cop was pretty far away from the kids he put on the ground by the curb. I was suggesting that that kid should have disregarded the orders to stay put because the cop was acting irrationally. When he pulled his gun out there was a real chance that someone was going to get hurt. If that boy was my son, I would advise him to get out of harm's way. The cop was the problem and the danger in this situation.

 

[kmoose]

That cop threw a young man to the ground and then chased another hardened criminal hundreds of yards away--all while acting like a unstable jackass. When he was off to oppress that girl, that would have been the time to get out of Dodge. When he pulled his gun out that just confirmed how unstable he was being. Look at the video. The one kidd who was coming to the girl's aid set a land speed record when he took off when Rambo pulled his gun. Notice he did not get shot in the back. You adding words to amplify what I was saying to fit your argument is stupid. Anyone so inclined can go back and read what I actually said. The cops instructions were to get on the ground and stay there. When he took off to chase someone else, I would have taken my leave -- just as I am about to do with you. People who are acting like asses just because they can do not deserve our attention.

I didn't add "words to amplify what I was saying to fit your argument". I used an example to illustrate why I thought that your advice was bad advice, and to present a situation where it obviously would put your kid in great danger. But think about this: From the cop's perspective; all he was doing was trying to get the situation under control. He told a group of kids to sit down and stay there. The intent(presumably) is not to show the kids what a dick he can be, but to manage people so that he can conduct interviews and find out what was going on without everyone shouting over one another. A pretty reasonable request, if you act me. When you sit there and backtalk him or run from him, don't you think he might look at you like YOU are the one being an ass?

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Ive skimmed through the thread pages and i think I can lend a valuable point of view because of my position and how I like to carry myself. I treat people with respect. I try to talk to people and try to avoid yelling at people; I dont think its very wise to talk down to people, especially people youre supposed to be serving and the people you need to be successesful. A good cop has a pulse on his community. I dont talk to people about just cop-community stuff; i ask them how they are doing? Do you play sports? If I see kids throwing a football...ill jump in and throw a few passes. I'm lucky because most of the cops I work with do the same and were well liked. I have ppl sneaking me their # and asking me to call them so they can tell me about crimes but that they dont like dealing with most cops bc theyre assholes.

I am also calm and relaxed even in the most stressful situation. People feed off that. If you are an asshole or an anxious mess; people will see that and react to it.

Tbh...the best way to mend the relationship between police and community is forcing new cops to volunteer in the community for a year as a requirement for employment so they get to know the people theyre serving, especially when the cop is coming from a total different background.

 

[GoIrish41]

your instructions to him are to keep running, even if he threatens to shoot you if you don't stop.

If other people have a problem with that, then that's their issue. You have a lot of arguments in the same threads......... so I guess you are a troll, too.

I did not say this yet you said that I did. You added that part to try to discredit what I actually did say. And it was not an honest mistake. You do this all the time. Period.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

That is not what I said. He did not pull the gun on the kid I was talking about. The cop was pretty far away from the kids he put on the ground by the curb. I was suggesting that that kid should have disregarded the orders to stay put because the cop was acting irrationally. When he pulled his gun out there was a real chance that someone was going to get hurt. If that boy was my son, I would advise him to get out of harm's way. The cop was the problem and the danger in this situation.

Most cops arent out of control and unhinged as that cop seemed to be. You tell a kid to run if youre scared of the cop or the way hes acting, the kid is just going to run everytime he sees a cop. %99.99999 of the time the cop is in control and not a liability. Now, picture this, your son is hanging out with a bunch of kids after the 9th grade dance. One kid who usually never hangs out with your sons group of friend decides to punch the lady at the local convenience store and take her money. The kids all run. One cop gets the call and hes a few blocks away. The call comes into the dispatcher a little off (which happens all the time). The dispatcher relays that there was an armed robbery (meaning theres a gun). The cops sees 7-8 kids running down the street. He stops them, alone on a dark road, catching 5 of them. The cop believes one of the kids could have a gun. His guns out and hes nervous and ordering the kids on the ground. One kid is mouthy saying screw the cops and being belligerently uncooperative. Cop is nervous because he cant properly search all 5 kids alone and is waiting for backup. Not to mentioned only has two pairs of handcuffs. Your son is scared to death because hes a good kid and has never been in trouble in his life. He remembers you telling him its okay to run from cops. Your son gets up, stutters in a jerky motion with his hand going to his waist bc hes so nervous, the cop panics and shoots your son. That is a clean shoot. Cop would not be in any trouble because of the details.

You guys have to remember. When a cop responds to a crime, especially a serious one, all he knows is that someone has a gun, someone just stabbed someone, someone just robbed someone...etc. He doesnt know the person in anyway but that. Its not a cut and dry job that many of you, i hate to say it- monday morning quarterbacks, believe it to be. Bad things happen to cops. A few weeks ago I stopped someone who looked like a fugitive I was looking for. The guy wouldnt stop when I was calling him. I approached him from the side and kept myself bladed as I talked to him with my hand on my gun. My partner came up from behind and just patted the guy down. His hand was wrapped around a .22 in his right pocket. If I were more squared to him, he couldve shot me before I could even react. Hindsight, I shouldve ran up and grabbed his arms out of his pockets and put him on the ground fast.

 

[kmoose]

I did not say this yet you said that I did. You added that part to try to discredit what I actually did say. And it was not an honest mistake. You do this all the time. Period.

I simply used it as an example. What you said that was that you would instruct him to run, no matter what the cop's orders were. So it is not dishonest to use the example of a cop telling him to stop or he will shoot. His order would be "stop or I will shoot'. You already conceded that you would tell him to run, no matter what the cop's orders were. Is it an extreme example? Yes. But it is NOT dishonest, no matter how much you bitch about it.

 

[GoIrish41]

Most cops arent out of control and unhinged as that cop seemed to be. You tell a kid to run if youre scared of the cop or the way hes acting, the kid is just going to run everytime he sees a cop. %99.99999 of the time the cop is in control and not a liability. Now, picture this, your son is hanging out with a bunch of kids after the 9th grade dance. One kid who usually never hangs out with your sons group of friend decides to punch the lady at the local convenience store and take her money. The kids all run. One cop gets the call and hes a few blocks away. The call comes into the dispatcher a little off (which happens all the time). The dispatcher relays that there was an armed robbery (meaning theres a gun). The cops sees 7-8 kids running down the street. He stops them, alone on a dark road, catching 5 of them. The cop believes one of the kids could have a gun. His guns out and hes nervous and ordering the kids on the ground. One kid is mouthy saying screw the cops and being belligerently uncooperative. Cop is nervous because he cant properly search all 5 kids alone and is waiting for backup. Not to mentioned only has two pairs of handcuffs. Your son is scared to death because hes a good kid and has never been in trouble in his life. He remembers you telling him its okay to run from cops. Your son gets up, stutters in a jerky motion with his hand going to his waist bc hes so nervous, the cop panics and shoots your son. That is a clean shoot. Cop would not be in any trouble because of the details.

You guys have to remember. When a cop responds to a crime, especially a serious one, all he knows is that someone has a gun, someone just stabbed someone, someone just robbed someone...etc. He doesnt know the person in anyway but that. Its not a cut and dry job that many of you, i hate to say it- monday morning quarterbacks, believe it to be. Bad things happen to cops. A few weeks ago I stopped someone who looked like a fugitive I was looking for. The guy wouldnt stop when I was calling him. I approached him from the side and kept myself bladed as I talked to him with my hand on my gun. My partner came up from behind and just patted the guy down. His hand was wrapped around a .22 in his right pocket. If I were more squared to him, he couldve shot me before I could even react. Hindsight, I shouldve ran up and grabbed his arms out of his pockets and put him on the ground fast.

In your scenario my son would not have run when the other kid hit the woman. He did nothing wrong. Further he would have waited for the cops and told him what happened and who did it. I am not giving blanket permission to run from cops. If that is how you are reading what I am saying, I should have been clearer. The whole point is to stay out of actual danger, whether it is from a cop or anybody else.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

In your scenario my son would not have run when the other kid hit the woman. He did nothing wrong. Further he would have waited for the cops and told him what happened and who did it. I am not giving blanket permission to run from cops. If that is how you are reading what I am saying, I should have been clearer. The whole point is to stay out of actual danger, whether it is from a cop or anybody else.

I understand what you mean. I am not trying to be argumentative. But I have been in situations where there are honor students and all around good kids making one bad decision for the first time whether it be over peer pressure, or bad luck. And i actually believe that there are situations where a good kid can make one grave mistake and end up in a terrible situation. I really dont want anything to happen to your son; so, as a cop, I am just offering my advice. Good kids panic. A good kid could be in shock that a kid in his group just robbed someone and run bc theyre scared of being in trouble. In fact, it more probable than the kid just staying put after the lady got assaulted. Telling your kid to lay on the ground flat with his arms out and stay still is the best way to avoid any kind of danger from the cop.

 

[GoIrish41]

You say there is no post that talks about the kid I was talking about, and then you quote that post as evidence. "If, for example, my son was one of the kids who was shoved to the ground at the pool party ... " it is like you do not even read what people say.

 

[kmoose]

You say there is no post that talks about the kid I was talking about, and then you quote that post as evidence. "If, for example, my son was one of the kids who was shoved to the ground at the pool party ... "

Mea Culpa. However, it was pretty obvious that you were insinuating that there was a discussion going on about a particular kid, and you were only offering your opinion of what you hoped your kid(s) would do, in that particular case.

 

[JughedJones]

Kmoose:

This is how you spend your weekends? Defending aggro cops on a football message board?

Welp... keep up the good fight?

 

[dshans]

Welp... keep up the good fight?

Right or wrong, it is what it is and it ain't what it ain't.

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Over and out ...

 

[Circa]

This.. a song to listen to while transpiring through this mess. All depth of reality aside. Conspire


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[kmoose]

Kmoose:

This is how you spend your weekends? Defending aggro cops on a football message board?

Welp... keep up the good fight?

1. I've said, over and over and over and over and over again, that I thought the cop's behavior was wrong. I can understand how he felt threatened enough to pull his firearm, but that is about the only thing that I can find that I think wasn't overboard.

2. What do you care about me, or what I do? I'm a terrible person, remember?

No, he believes it.

I wouldn't be so put off if I thought he was just trolling.

He's a terrible person.

 

[Circa]

1. I've said, over and over and over and over and over again, that I thought the cop's behavior was wrong. I can understand how he felt threatened enough to pull his firearm, but that is about the only thing that I can find that I think wasn't overboard.

2. What do you care about me, or what I do? I'm a terrible person, remember?

Hey bud. I love ya just because your a Notre Dame fan.

 

[connor_in]

FOP releases findings from &apos;after action review&apos; of Baltimore police riot response - Baltimore Sun

 

[NDgradstudent]

Will Obama be attending Kevin Sutherland's funeral? Will the DOJ be investigating the MPD's incompetence?

Don't bet on it.

 

[BGIF]

Another Black Man Dies In Police Custody

Another Black Man Dies In Police Custody

Man Dies After Getting Pepper Sprayed By Police

Man dies after getting pepper sprayed by police - CNN.com


Police responded to a call about a man with a gun.

There was an outstanding warrant for eluding police.

Black suspect fled into woods pursued by 6 cops, 3 white, 1 black, 1 Asian, 1 ?.

Cops subdued him with pepper spray, O.C.

Suspect collapsed walking out of woods. Cops provided CPR and called for medical help. The man was pronounced dead at the hospital.

Assistant police chief say there is both dash and body camera videos which will be released following investigation.

 

[Irish2155]

Killed by pepper spray?

 

[BGIF]

Killed by pepper spray?

In another article I read on this incident it was noted that Pepper spray, O.C., can contribute to a heart attack as a possible side effect.

 

[Irish2155]

OK...

I'm sure running from the cops doesn't help your heart attack chances either.

Maybe they should have used their pixy dust?

 

[BGIF]

Pepper spray and tear gas - Medic Wiki

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), exposure to riot control agents causes:

Eyes: excessive tearing, burning, blurred vision, redness
Nose: runny nose, burning, swelling
Mouth: burning, irritation, difficulty swallowing, drooling
Lungs: chest tightness, coughing, choking sensation, noisy breathing (wheezing), shortness of breath
Skin: burns, rash
Other: nausea and vomiting

 

[Irish2155]

Pepper spray and tear gas - Medic Wiki

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), exposure to riot control agents causes:

Eyes: excessive tearing, burning, blurred vision, redness
Nose: runny nose, burning, swelling
Mouth: burning, irritation, difficulty swallowing, drooling
Lungs: chest tightness, coughing, choking sensation, noisy breathing (wheezing), shortness of breath
Skin: burns, rash
Other: nausea and vomiting

Yeah, so what? Should he have put a bullet in him?

What would you suggest the cops do in this situation?