Police State USA

goldandblue

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Bogs,

Explain one thing to me... What is the difference in the successful black man and the unsuccessful.
 

Ndaccountant

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Actually, I think you need a break.

Such a gross misinterpretation of my post, indicates rest and relaxation should be first on your schedule.

No, I am not making a comparison of the times! What a quaint thing to do! What I am trying to do is make a commentary on human behavior, (irrespective of the time and place.)

Like this : Here is an experiment that anyone with a bit of imagination can do, even if making up for a deficit in intelligence.

Picture yourself still as a white man. Only now there are many more black men than whites. And they have been in control for centuries. And more whites than blacks are in the ranks of the poverty locked and uneducated. Yesterday you couldn't apply for the minimum wage job that was your ticket out, because you didn't have the bus fare to get to the job location and apply. And that is the beginning of the problem. Chances are your reading and writing is a fraction of what your black counterparts is. Wouldn't you jump at the chance to put on a black face and separate yourself from the other poor whites? And wouldn't your desperation be the limit to how far you would go?



I think this is as contrary to everything I have ever said as possible. If I didn't know you better Moose, I would say you were being a bit disingenuous. If it is a misunderstanding, then I think my point is that there is no easy answer. That the kind of transcendent thinking and action required to solve a problem like this once and for all requires a shift in human behavior. And unfortunately, genocide is not a shift in human behavior!

Postscript : In looking back at the sum total of recent posts, this thread has become all about defending positions, sometimes indefensible. And that would be a behavioral trait I would think need be changed first. So without anything new to add to this case, (so as to avoid conflation with another case, or illogic derived from swaying far enough off topic, I will stop posting until someone adds something new. As I see it many posters points still stand, and the reactionary element hasn't even scored. I learned a lot from some of you, thanks for the info. Others, that want to keep doing the same things over again, expecting the results to turn out differently, good luck!

Just a thought to consider.

I think there are racists all around the country and it impacts every race and nationality. It sucks, but it's still there. Acknowledging that, I still pose this questions.......Are the things people point towards today and decry as systemic racism really a result of racism, or is it more of a result of classism?
 

kmoose

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What I am trying to do is make a commentary on human behavior, (irrespective of the time and place.)

When it comes to social unrest you cannot set aside time and place, because time and place provide context. Even without it, though, the analogy to Jews working with the Nazis is completely baseless. Jews who informed on other Jews knew damn well that they were marking their "kind" for death. Not a rough ride in a paddy wagon (a name born out of racism toward the Irish), but death. And they did so only to save their own lives. Not even on the same plane as a black Baltimore police officer violating the civil rights of a fellow black man.

I think this is as contrary to everything I have ever said as possible. If I didn't know you better Moose, I would say you were being a bit disingenuous. If it is a misunderstanding, then I think my point is that there is no easy answer. That the kind of transcendent thinking and action required to solve a problem like this once and for all requires a shift in human behavior. And unfortunately, genocide is not a shift in human behavior!

I never even insinuated that you suggested genocide. I said that it appeared that some people thought that things would be perfect, if the racist white men were not around. But I did notice that you did not answer the question.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Bogs,

Explain one thing to me... What is the difference in the successful black man and the unsuccessful.

There are two things; the success (and all that it entails), and that it is success in your (or others) eyes.

When it comes to social unrest you cannot set aside time and place, because time and place provide context. Even without it, though, the analogy to Jews working with the Nazis is completely baseless. Jews who informed on other Jews knew damn well that they were marking their "kind" for death. Not a rough ride in a paddy wagon (a name born out of racism toward the Irish), but death. And they did so only to save their own lives. Not even on the same plane as a black Baltimore police officer violating the civil rights of a fellow black man.

Are you sure it isn't? Speaking of Ireland, the whole of Irish history is full of stories of mass murder for superficially racial, and religious reasons. But underneath it, the true basis for murder was class lines.

Someone who lives white looks at murder one way; someone who is young and black in East St. Louis, Chicago, and many other large cities looks at it as a reality. Someone can look up the stats, but I think my uncle had a better chance at D-Day in the first wave than a young African-American does growing up in the inter-city of our major population centers today.

I never even insinuated that you suggested genocide. I said that it appeared that some people thought that things would be perfect, if the racist white men were not around. But I did notice that you did not answer the question.

Sorry if I misunderstood you. Then, you remind me of a joke me auld Irish attorney used to tell : What is five-hundred lawyers at the bottom of Lake Erie? . . . A pretty good start!

I don't wish anyone ill. And I don't mean to judge. But it should be pretty clear for anyone with any intelligence that we have exhausted every hate based solution, and then some, so I have to agree with you, it is time for bigots to change!

Just a thought to consider.

I think there are racists all around the country and it impacts every race and nationality. It sucks, but it's still there. Acknowledging that, I still pose this questions.......Are the things people point towards today and decry as systemic racism really a result of racism, or is it more of a result of classism?

You know the answer. This site is a perfect example of it. You don't need to go any further than Jerry Tillery's thread. This spring the whole fan base fell in love with him, after a tumultious time as a committed recruit before his early enrollment. Why? All the people can talk about Les Miles and the media, his parents statements, etc. Until the bulk of the fan base had a chance to discover his quality of character, and where he fit in "socially", as upwardly mobile, (with a bullet!), he could not be accepted. Every time the media reported anything that could sound flaky, immature, or foolish, he was branded by multiple posters! But as soon as he got here, he revealed himself as being on "this side" of the class divide, and he was okay.


Just a thought to consider.

I think there are racists all around the country and it impacts every race and nationality. It sucks, but it's still there. Acknowledging that, I still pose this questions.......Are the things people point towards today and decry as systemic racism really a result of racism, or is it more of a result of classism?

To take your point a step further, racist white Americans do not have a problem with successful African Americans if A) They can see that the person worked hard to achieve their success; and B) They don't make white people look foolish.

You can look all the way across the American landscape. African Americans are pretty well respected by everyone these days. Unless they are too threatening, either by behavior or position. That is why some act like they are best friends with Obama, and they hurl the most outrageous non-truths about, related to him. I have been to a lot of games at Notre Dame, and I have never seen anyone disrespect David Robinson.

And to take it another step further (your point); even if it starts off as race, it ends up as class, because there is redistribution, and compromise (based upon the untruth of the principles behind the racism.) In other words, for a society to prosper, it has to continue to become more efficient. So if principles of racism were true, no African Americans could contribute meaningfully in our society. But it isn't true. Not only do you have guys like David Robinson, you have guys like Neil deGrasse Tyson, Colin Powel, Satchel Paige, Martin Luther King Jr., etc,. etc. So to progress, on the other hand, our society needs to pass on the guys that can contribute. Period.

My original mention of the Kapos was just half of the story; so the Nazi's couldn't live without certain industry, which couldn't live without other industries including banking and finance. That is why you have General Motors plants in Luxembourg, within meters of the front, not having a window broken, or shrub disturbed! The same industrialists that were fronting the money for the war, and reaping the tremendous profits, had to force FDR and Marshall to suppress any knowledge of the death camps for three years until the war was over! At some point all humans turn on their own (if not kin) neighbors and friends to promote their own survival! That is just the way it is!
 
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goldandblue

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There are two things; the success (and all that it entails), and that it is success in your (or others) eyes.

You can't help it can you?

From the Merriam Webster.

b : favorable or desired outcome; also : the attainment of wealth, favor, or eminence
 
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Bogtrotter07

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You can't help it can you?

From the Merriam Webster.

b : favorable or desired outcome; also : the attainment of wealth, favor, or eminence

What do you need me for if you have your own dictionary and can read? I though you wanted me to explain the conundrum you were attempting to describe. I actually did it throughout the rest of my post. Because again, it isn't just simpleshit. If it were, a guy like Bill Cosby's reputation would be untarnished.
 

pkt77242

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Just a thought to consider.

I think there are racists all around the country and it impacts every race and nationality. It sucks, but it's still there. Acknowledging that, I still pose this questions.......Are the things people point towards today and decry as systemic racism really a result of racism, or is it more of a result of classism?

I think it is both. I agree that classism is a part of it, but I think that a poor black person generally gets treated worse then a poor white person though both do get the short end of the stick.
 

goldandblue

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What do you need me for if you have your own dictionary and can read?

It was you who questioned or assumed I may have an alternate meaning of success.

I though you wanted me to explain the conundrum you were attempting to describe. I actually did it throughout the rest of my post.

I asked a simple question using 12 words. You actually did not respond to anything regarding my original question.

Because again, it isn't just simpleshit. If it were, a guy like Bill Cosby's reputation would be untarnished.

Are you referencing Bill Cosby in regards to the sexual assault allegations? I would like to have a better understanding of what you mean by this statement.
 

Bluto

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Just a thought to consider.

I think there are racists all around the country and it impacts every race and nationality. It sucks, but it's still there. Acknowledging that, I still pose this questions.......Are the things people point towards today and decry as systemic racism really a result of racism, or is it more of a result of classism?

Both and the the two are not mutually exclusive.
 

irishff1014

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Our worthless president sends reps from the white house to a troubled young mans funeral that is know to have a drug problem

Mean while a cop get killed on duty and no mention of it and i haven't been able to find that any rep was sent to his funeral.

Another reason why Obama is a joke. Lets keep supporting the criminals good job you failure.
 

IrishSteelhead

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Our worthless president sends reps from the white house to a troubled young mans funeral that is know to have a drug problem

Mean while a cop get killed on duty and no mention of it and i haven't been able to find that any rep was sent to his funeral.

Another reason why Obama is a joke. Lets keep supporting the criminals good job you failure.


To quote Clint Eastwood from Heartbreak Ridge: "Hold onto this boy, I think war's just been declared..."
 

kmoose

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Our worthless president sends reps from the white house to a troubled young mans funeral that is know to have a drug problem

Mean while a cop get killed on duty and no mention of it and i haven't been able to find that any rep was sent to his funeral.

Another reason why Obama is a joke. Lets keep supporting the criminals good job you failure.

I didn't vote for the guy either time, nor do I like him very much.......... but he IS the President. We should, at the very least, show some respect for the office.
 

Bluto

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» Race, Politics and Lies » Commentary -- GOPUSA

Race, Politics and Lies

Among the many painful ironies in the current racial turmoil is that communities scattered across the country were disrupted by riots and looting because of the demonstrable lie that Michael Brown was shot in the back by a white policeman in Missouri -- but there was not nearly as much turmoil created by the demonstrable fact that a fleeing black man was shot dead by a white policeman in South Carolina.

Totally ignored was the fact that a black policeman in Alabama fatally shot an unarmed white teenager, and was cleared of any charges, at about the same time that a white policeman was cleared of charges in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown.

In a world where the truth means so little, and headstrong preconceptions seem to be all that matter, what hope is there for rational words or rational behavior, much less mutual understanding across racial lines?

When the recorded fatal shooting of a fleeing man in South Carolina brought instant condemnation by whites and blacks alike, and by the most conservative as well as the most liberal commentators, that moment of mutual understanding was very fleeting, as if mutual understanding were something to be avoided, as a threat to a vision of "us against them" that was more popular.

That vision is nowhere more clearly expressed than in attempts to automatically depict whatever social problems exist in ghetto communities as being caused by the sins or negligence of whites, whether racism in general or a "legacy of slavery" in particular. Like most emotionally powerful visions, it is seldom, if ever, subjected to the test of evidence.

The "legacy of slavery" argument is not just an excuse for inexcusable behavior in the ghettos. In a larger sense, it is an evasion of responsibility for the disastrous consequences of the prevailing social vision of our times, and the political policies based on that vision, over the past half century.

Anyone who is serious about evidence need only compare black communities as they evolved in the first 100 years after slavery with black communities as they evolved in the first 50 years after the explosive growth of the welfare state, beginning in the 1960s.

You would be hard-pressed to find as many ghetto riots prior to the 1960s as we have seen just in the past year, much less in the 50 years since a wave of such riots swept across the country in 1965.

We are told that such riots are a result of black poverty and white racism. But in fact -- for those who still have some respect for facts -- black poverty was far worse, and white racism was far worse, prior to 1960. But violent crime within black ghettos was far less.

Murder rates among black males were going down -- repeat, DOWN -- during the much lamented 1950s, while it went up after the much celebrated 1960s, reaching levels more than double what they had been before. Most black children were raised in two-parent families prior to the 1960s. But today the great majority of black children are raised in one-parent families.

Such trends are not unique to blacks, nor even to the United States. The welfare state has led to remarkably similar trends among the white underclass in England over the same period. Just read "Life at the Bottom," by Theodore Dalrymple, a British physician who worked in a hospital in a white slum neighborhood.

You cannot take any people, of any color, and exempt them from the requirements of civilization -- including work, behavioral standards, personal responsibility and all the other basic things that the clever intelligentsia disdain -- without ruinous consequences to them and to society at large.

Non-judgmental subsidies of counterproductive lifestyles are treating people as if they were livestock, to be fed and tended by others in a welfare state -- and yet expecting them to develop as human beings have developed when facing the challenges of life themselves.

One key fact that keeps getting ignored is that the poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits every year since 1994. Behavior matters and facts matter, more than the prevailing social visions or political empires built on those visions.

This is the biggest bullshit post. What is going on today is not the result of "slavery" per se, it is the result of hundreds of years of strategic, systemic and instutionalized racism that has served to crush the black community and black families. The "great society" efforts in this country to correct and or address this imbalance lasted a good 5-10 years before they began to be completely scaled backed and systematically dismantled. Is it a shocker that they failed in that they were so half hearted and so short lived? White America as a whole has done pretty much zip when it comes to accepting and standing accountable for what was and continues to be done to African Americans all the while reaping the benefits of an unbalanced society as far as competition for resources goes. It's quite sad and pathetic.
 
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Bishop2b5

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This is the biggest bullshit post. What is going on today is not the result of "slavery" per se, it is the result of hundreds of years of strategic, systemic and instutionalized racism that has served to crush the black community and black families. The "great society" efforts in this country to correct and or address this imbalance lasted a good 5-10 years before they began to be completely scaled backed and systematically dismantled. Is it a shocker that they failed in that they were so half hearted and so short lived? White America as a whole has done pretty much zip when it comes to accepting and standing accountable for what was and continues to be done to African Americans all the while reaping the benefits of an unbalanced society as far as competition for resources goes. It's quite sad and pathetic.

I know you don't realize it and don't understand why, but you're the problem in all this. What you see as the solution is what actually caused and is perpetuating the problem.
 

Bluto

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I know you don't realize it and don't understand why, but you're the problem in all this. What you see as the solution is what actually caused and is perpetuating the problem.

Hey thanks. As the father of kid who is part black that is the most dismissive, piece of shit insult I can imagine and just serves to reinforce how arrogant and clueless you are. That type of dimissive and arrogant attitude (embodied by your post) along with the complete failure of white America to own up to what it has done and continues to do and address the issue is "the problem". Frankly, one of the reasons I root for ND is that as an institution it has and continues to make a concious effort to be part of the solution. I realize you probably don't understand how you're part of the problem. Roll Tide. Lol.
 
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Bishop2b5

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Hey thanks. As the father of kid who is part black that is the most dismissive, piece of shit insult I can imagine and just serves to reinforce how arrogant and clueless you are. That type of dimissive and arrogant attitude (embodied by your post) along with the complete failure of white America to own up to what it has done and continues to do and address the issue is "the problem". Frankly, one of the reasons I root for ND is that as an institution it is making a concious effort to be part of the solution. I realize you probably don't understand how you're part of the problem. Roll Tide. Lol.

Your rebuttal of my assertion consists of nothing more than name calling and insults. I believe that constitutes ample evidence that you've lost the battle of ideas.

If you'd like further proof of how you're wrong and the cause of the problem instead of the solution, look at the results. Your approach has hardly raised anyone out of poverty (and in fact has permanently enslaved many to it), while my approach has helped millions upon millions of poor Whites, Blacks, and immigrants to this country escape poverty and achieve success.

Do you really want to help your son avoid ever being poor? Stop teaching him victimology and that any failures he will experience in life are someone else's fault. Teach him to be responsible for his own actions and their consequences, good or bad, and that his success or failure is totally up to him. In other words, teach him to be a responsible man and not a helpless victim.
 

JughedJones

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Your rebuttal of my assertion consists of nothing more than name calling and insults. I believe that constitutes ample evidence that you've lost the battle of ideas.

If you'd like further proof of how you're wrong and the cause of the problem instead of the solution, look at the results. Your approach has hardly raised anyone out of poverty (and in fact has permanently enslaved many to it), while my approach has helped millions upon millions of poor Whites, Blacks, and immigrants to this country escape poverty and achieve success.

Do you really want to help your son avoid ever being poor? Stop teaching him victimology and that any failures he will experience in life are someone else's fault. Teach him to be responsible for his own actions and their consequences, good or bad, and that his success or failure is totally up to him. In other words, teach him to be a responsible man and not a helpless victim.


Did you really just assume that there's two ways to raise a child: Your way or hapless "victomology"? (as an aside, I don't think you understand what that word means.)

How about you stay in your lane? You can discuss whether or not you agree with the idea of institutionalized racism, (which is always good for a laugh,) but you don't get to tell someone how to raise their kid.

In short: Get bent.
 

Bluto

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Your rebuttal of my assertion consists of nothing more than name calling and insults. I believe that constitutes ample evidence that you've lost the battle of ideas.

If you'd like further proof of how you're wrong and the cause of the problem instead of the solution, look at the results. Your approach has hardly raised anyone out of poverty (and in fact has permanently enslaved many to it), while my approach has helped millions upon millions of poor Whites, Blacks, and immigrants to this country escape poverty and achieve success.

Do you really want to help your son avoid ever being poor? Stop teaching him victimology and that any failures he will experience in life are someone else's fault. Teach him to be responsible for his own actions and their consequences, good or bad, and that his success or failure is totally up to him. In other words, teach him to be a responsible man and not a helpless victim.

He's doing just fine thanks. He said he wanted to go to Stanford the other day and he's on track to do just that either academically or athletically if he so chooses. Tore it up at the gun range awhile back too #sigsauer. Roll Tide. Lol.
 
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Bishop2b5

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Did you really just assume that there's two ways to raise a child: Your way or hapless "victomology"? (as an aside, I don't think you understand what that word means.)

How about you stay in your lane? You can discuss whether or not you agree with the idea of institutionalized racism, (which is always good for a laugh,) but you don't get to tell someone how to raise their kid.

In short: Get bent.

He brought his child into the conversation, not me. I just gave him some good and proven advice about how to raise a successful, responsible child instead of a victim who blamed others for everything. If you disagree with my advice, feel free to rebut it with facts instead of feeble attempts to insult me. Otherwise, you might as well just say, "Uhh, well, I'm out of ideas and this is all I can think of to say."

BTW, everyone in this forum knows what victimology means; we've all seen Law & Order and Criminal Minds. Everyone here also knows how I was using it and what was meant by it.
 
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Bishop2b5

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He's doing just fine thanks. He said he wanted to go to Stanford the other day and he's on track to do just that either academically or athletically if he so chooses. Tore it up at the gun range awhile back too #sigsauer. Roll Tide. Lol.

Congratulations to him then. I hope he succeeds.
 

JughedJones

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He brought his child into the conversation, not me. I just gave him some good and proven advice about how to raise a successful, responsible child instead of a victim who blamed others for everything. If you disagree with my advice, feel free to rebut it with facts instead of feeble attempts to insult me. Otherwise, you might as well just say, "Uhh, well, I'm out of ideas and this is all I can think of to say."


Yeah. Good thing too. Sounds like he was really struggling until you generously imparted your wisdom.



BTW: For someone so hung up on personal responsibility, you sure are good at playing the victim. "He brought up his kids first, that gives me the right to passive-aggressively demean him and complain that he's trying to insult me."

Nice.
 
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IrishinSyria

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I was getting ready to post this. No out rage of this?????????????

Warren Strain, a spokesman for the Mississippi Department of Public Safety, said Marvin Banks, 29, and Joanie Calloway, 22, were each charged with two counts of capital murder. Banks was also charged with one count of being a felon in possession of a firearm and with grand theft for fleeing in the police cruiser after the shooting, Strain said.

It's tragic. But I don't see what there is to be outraged over. The people responsible were arrested and charged with murder. The system is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. I understand that nuance is not always the easiest thing to grasp, but there's a big difference between when people can kill with impunity because they are protected by the system and when people kill despite the fact that the system will punish them for it.

edit: but, oh yeah, checkmate libs!
 

kmoose

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It's tragic. But I don't see what there is to be outraged over. The people responsible were arrested and charged with murder. The system is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. I understand that nuance is not always the easiest thing to grasp, but there's a big difference between when people can kill with impunity because they are protected by the system and when people kill despite the fact that the system will punish them for it.

edit: but, oh yeah, checkmate libs!

In the case of Walter Scott, in North Charleston, SC; The officer who shot Walter Scott was arrested and charged with murder before Scott was even buried. But there was SIGNIFICANT outrage there, despite "the system doing exactly what it is supposed to do". So why the difference? One of the officers shot in Mississippi, Liquori Tate, was a 24 year old black man. He's yet another young black man gone too early. Do black lives only matter when they are taken by white police officers?
 

IrishinSyria

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In the case of Walter Scott, in North Charleston, SC; The officer who shot Walter Scott was arrested and charged with murder before Scott was even buried. But there was SIGNIFICANT outrage there, despite "the system doing exactly what it is supposed to do". So why the difference? One of the officers shot in Mississippi, Liquori Tate, was a 24 year old black man. He's yet another young black man gone too early. Do black lives only matter when they are taken by white police officers?

The Walter Scott murder was different because a) it was filmed b) there was evidence that the officer and his partner were going to try to cover up what really happened and c) it was a police officer murdering someone in cold blood. If you really don't understand why society should hold police officers to a higher standard than common criminals, I don't really know what to say to you.

If you're trying to argue that the black community doesn't care about black crime, I'd suggest not advertising your ignorance.

Beyond the data, there’s the anecdotal evidence. And in short, it’s easy to find examples of marches and demonstrations against crime. In the last four years, blacks have held community protests against violence in Chicago; New York; Newark, New Jersey; Pittsburgh; Saginaw, Michigan; and Gary, Indiana. Indeed, there’s a whole catalog of movies, albums, and sermons from a generation of directors, musicians, and religious leaders, each urging peace and order. You may not have noticed black protests against crime and violence, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t happened. Black Americans—like everyone else—are concerned with what happens in their communities, and at a certain point, pundits who insist otherwise are either lying or willfully ignorant.

All violent crime is terrible and tragic. But the existence of one type of crime should not negate our outrage over another type of crime, especially when that second type is carried out by the very officers paid and armed by the state to enforce the peace. Certainly, policing is a dangerous job, and that should inform how we react to police violence, but that doesn't justify violence in all cases. Really, I doubt that you or IrishFF disagree with this.
 
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irishff1014

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In the case of Walter Scott, in North Charleston, SC; The officer who shot Walter Scott was arrested and charged with murder before Scott was even buried. But there was SIGNIFICANT outrage there, despite "the system doing exactly what it is supposed to do". So why the difference? One of the officers shot in Mississippi, Liquori Tate, was a 24 year old black man. He's yet another young black man gone too early. Do black lives only matter when they are taken by white police officers?


You say things I am thinking but in a way less blunt way.
 
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