Police State USA

irishff1014

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As it has been noted already, Bubba personally never saw it.

And Irishff, shouldn't you just be glad that it ended up NOT being a hate crime directed towards Bubba? This isn't like they covered up the FBI findings. There was apparently reason enough to report it and have it taken seriously by NASCAR, and instead of just waiting to hear it out, the whole driver pool and their teams essentially came out and said, if that's the case, we do not stand for it. They also reported it to authorities instead of just brushing it off or doing an "internal" investigation of some sort which should probably be commended as well even if it ended up being bogus. (This is how we handle suspected sexual assault and rape cases nowadays...if there is ANY hint that it is happening, you report it immediately to authorities.)

This should be seen as a win, win. Drivers and their teams showed solidarity against racism being a perceived part of their sport, and luckily, no hate crime actually occurred.

Absolutely i am glad that this wasn't a hate crime. It would have been bad for everyone if it was. But make no mistake this isn't a win win situation. Did LeBron come out and apologize? Nope! I say they meaning Bubba, The Petty family, Nascar and the media made this into a situation that it wasn't. They used this as a publicity stunt. In the state of affairs this country is in anyone would push a racist agenda for attention.

Every garage door i have ever seen that didn't have an electric motor has rope with a piece of plastic on it so it can go between your fingers and you can pull the door down or a loop tied in it so you can stick you finger in the hole and pull it down.
 

irishff1014

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I agree in general, but not a total win IMO. That team member should have went to the owner or crew chief first. Instead of anyone going public, all concerned and involved parties should have gotten together to determine if this was a legitimate threat. They would have found that pull rope had been tied that way for quite a while. A lot of needless racial tension could have been avoided.


Yes this 100000000%
 

Bishop2b5

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I'm no Nascar fan and to be honest, I'd never heard of Bubba before this week. I'm glad he finally issued a walk-back statement, but this never should've gone down the path it did. Given all that's going on right now, that was akin to yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theatre.
 

Legacy

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Imagine if the Minneapolis Police Oversight Board had had the power to kick off the "bad apples", reforms with teeth, the worst police were kicked off the force, and George Floyd's murder never happened.

THE LONG BATTLE FOR CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT OF THE POLICE
In Tulsa, Oklahoma, where Black residents are three times as likely as whites to have police officers use force against them, Tiffany Crutcher is on a mission to get civilian oversight.

More than 140 such review bodies are operating nationwide, but the influence they have varies considerably — many don’t have much. An oversight proposal supported by Tulsa’s mayor last year struck advocates and some city council members as too weak. Crutcher — whose brother was outside his stalled SUV in 2016 when a Tulsa police officer shot and killed him — wants a review agency with enough authority to prompt change.

The weekend after George Floyd died gasping for air under an officer’s knee in Minneapolis, hundreds joined Crutcher in a march toward Tulsa Mayor G.T. Bynum’s house. The following Monday, she and other advocates met with Bynum and his police chief and extracted a promise: The city, which says its collective bargaining agreement with the police union stands in the way of stronger oversight, will attempt to negotiate for that authority in arbitration.

As people protesting police brutality nationwide push for broad reforms, strong civilian oversight is one of the demands. But it’s hard to get. The story for more than 70 years has been a struggle between community advocates working to enact it and police trying to block or defang it, with elected officials choosing sides. State laws often serve as stumbling blocks. And year after year, officers keep killing unarmed people like Crutcher’s twin brother Terence, many of them Black men.

The mere presence of an oversight body is no cure-all: Minneapolis has three. Richard Rosenthal, who ran oversight entities in two U.S. cities and one Canadian province, said keys to success include wide-ranging access to police information, paid staff to dig in, a mandate to look at systemic issues as well as individual complaints and political support for recommendations.

“Avoid doing it on the cheap,” he said. If elected officials create an office that meets the bare minimum to look like oversight, “in the end, it’s not going to have the impact.”

Communities keep trying: Roughly a dozen oversight entities were started in the last year or two, according to the National Association for Civilian Oversight of Law Enforcement. The group has been inundated with calls in recent days from people who want to create or strengthen local oversight.

“I can’t emphasize enough that we want community oversight with real power,” said Crutcher, who put her work at her Alabama physical therapy clinic on hold to focus on Tulsa police reform. “The fact is, this keeps happening over and over again without consequence. Nobody is held accountable.”

A QUESTION OF POWER
The first civilian police review board dates back to the 1940s. But many early examples of community involvement in policing, including in the 1960s, “were really PR efforts,” said Samuel Walker, emeritus professor of criminal justice at the University of Nebraska at Omaha.

“Police chiefs would create these community advisory committees,” he said. “They were always people he picked.”

In 2000, despite renewed efforts to make citizen review meaningful, the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights concluded that the system as a whole remained weak. Most review boards could do no more than make recommendations, the commission said, and few had subpoena power to extract records and ensure witness testimony. Efforts to strengthen these bodies were often met by stiff resistance from police.

A good deal of what that report described 20 years ago remains true today. Half the panelists on the Minneapolis Office of Police Conduct Review, for instance, are police officers — a structure that replaced an all-civilian office in 2012 with the hope that it would improve relations between the community and its police.
The new body has upheld less than 19 percent of the roughly 2,000 complaints they considered from 2013 through 2019, according to statistics provided by the city. Nearly all involved relatively minor infractions that were handled with “coaching,” Andrew Hawkins, chief of staff for the Minneapolis Department of Human Rights, said in an email.

Just 39 complaints over those seven years led to formal discipline. And most of those weren’t ones filed by the public, said Dave Bicking, a board member of the Twin Cities watchdog group Communities United Against Police Brutality.

“Officers treat this whole process as a joke, literally, to the point where we heard many, many stories from people who have been involved in something and say to the officer, ‘I’m going to file a complaint against you,’ and the officer laughs at them,” Bicking said. (cont)

The worst of them are no better than thugs.
 
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Irish YJ

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Imagine if the Minneapolis Police Oversight Board had had the power to kick off the "bad apples", reforms with teeth, the worst police were kicked off the force, and George Floyd's murder never happened.

THE LONG BATTLE FOR CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT OF THE POLICE

The worst of them are no better than thugs.

As to the bolded, wouldn't you first have to imagine why a city government who have been Dem for the last 40+ years, hasn't made this happen? Why is the failure not the Mayor's, who have appointed all those PCs?
 

Legacy

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The concept that real accountability for excessive use of force that murders civiliains should not be tough to grasp. Police union contracts and PD departments who shelter the thugs and provide them with a way of getting back on the force despite oversight through arbitration generate community distrust and hate. Some on this board will read the article and comment on the issues.
 

ACamp1900

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It’s the same dynamic in a lot of fields, education for one. Hell, when I worked produce in college the assistant manager was caught setting up drug networks through the store to customers and couldn’t be fired... I’ll let you figure out the common factor in each field.
 

Legacy

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It’s the same dynamic in a lot of fields, education for one. Hell, when I worked produce in college the assistant manager was caught setting up drug networks through the store to customers and couldn’t be fired... I’ll let you figure out the common factor in each field.

I disagree. There is no accountability, no pay-for-performance, no appropriate discipline as reviewed in depth by Oversight Boards. In education, you violate standards, you are fired. It's on your record for future employers. Where else are you given a badge and a gun and commit murder? Look for the differences. The only possible recourse many cities are faced with are to bring charges.

Or to disband the police force as Christie and Camden did..

Where would we be if citizens were not taking videos?
 
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Irish YJ

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The concept that real accountability for excessive use of force that murders civiliains should not be tough to grasp. Police union contracts and PD departments who shelter the thugs and provide them with a way of getting back on the force despite oversight through arbitration generate community distrust and hate. Some on this board will read the article and comment on the issues.

I read the article. The problem is, it's an emotional piece (co-published by far left Mother Jones) void of basic info required to have serious conversation. Basic info like police contact frequency, and the % of issues based on contact volume is key to understanding the depth of issues. Also, zero context and breakdown is given on complaint numbers.

But again, you fail to acknowledge and address that fact that the majority of the issues we've had, and the majority of consent decrees the last 10 years, have been in cities that have been under overwhelmingly long term Dem control.

Sorry, I don't bite on the emotional pieces. Give me an article that goes beyond the emotion and isn't afraid to talk stats (not just cherry picked superficial stuff that suits the writers narrative) and discuss the uncomfortable topics that are almost always excluded from these types of articles.

BTW, I'm all for serious reform, clipping the nuts off the unions, etc.. As I posted though previously, that's hard to do when 2/3rds of the city council and the DA are all taking money from the unions (like in LA). We have a politics problem as much as we have a police problem, but nobody wants to have that conversation.
 

Irish YJ

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I disagree. There is no accountability, no pay-for-performance, no appropriate discipline as reviewed in depth by Oversight Boards. In education, you violate standards, you are fired. It's on your record for future employers. Where else are you given a badge and a gun and commit murder? Look for the differences. The only possible recourse many cities are faced with are to bring charges.

Or to disband the police force as Christie and Camden did..

Where would we be if citizens were not taking videos?

The problem is, the standards for teachers are weak as hell. What is their goal? Their goal is to educate. Do they get fired when a certain % of their kids don't do well, or don't pass standardized testing? No. You can be a warm body with horrible test scores and never get fired.

And don't forget, tests are racist!
 

IrishLion

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The garage pull rope that was tied like a noose and found in Bubba Wallace’s garage stall at Talladega on Sunday. This photo is from NASCAR. <a href="https://t.co/d8lac4S6m5">pic.twitter.com/d8lac4S6m5</a></p>— Jordan Bianchi (@Jordan_Bianchi) <a href="https://twitter.com/Jordan_Bianchi/status/1276189033803153411?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 25, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

IrishLion

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NASCAR president Steve Phelps says NASCAR conducted a "thorough sweep of all 29 tracks where they race, and 1684 garage stalls, they found only 11 total ropes that had a pulldown rope tied in a knot, and just one noose: The one in Bubba Wallace garage."</p>— Marty Smith (@MartySmithESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/MartySmithESPN/status/1276194402302640129?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 25, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

IrishLion

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So, not QUITE the same as yelling fire in a crowded theater...
 

IrishLion

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What I'm curious about is who was assigned the garage during the races prior to Wallace. We know it was there as early as Oct19 IIRC.

It was tied that way during the weekend of the race there in ‘19. Likely not targeting Bubba or anyone. Probably just some dudes sitting around bored and one guy started tying a knot and another guy said “I can do a noose” or something like that.

I feel bad for Bubba, because the usual suspects are on twitter telling everyone how that’s a standard fishing knot, as if the everyday person wouldn’t see that as a noose, and they’re a lefty snowflake if they think it’s a noose, so on and so forth.

Just glad it wasn’t directed at Bubba as a threat or poor joke or message or anything like that. And if the FBI zeroed in on the team that was there in October, I hope some poor bastard doesn’t lose his job over tying a (weird) knot into a rope.
 

Luckylucci

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Some by residents and business owners for abandonment...

And also by one of the ones shot, because the police didn't/couldn't respond.

Just saw that. Good for them. Some of those stories are unreal.
 

Irish YJ

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Just saw that. Good for them. Some of those stories are unreal.

I think we'll hear more come out as well. There were some reports earlier, but many, were simply afraid to talk on camera.

I'm all for peaceful protests. Looting, arson, vandalizing, occupied zones, etc.. I'll never agree with. One of gov's core function is safety, and if they're not providing it, they should be sued. Seattle's mayor totally failed the people.
 

Irish#1

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I disagree. There is no accountability, no pay-for-performance, no appropriate discipline as reviewed in depth by Oversight Boards. In education, you violate standards, you are fired. It's on your record for future employers. Where else are you given a badge and a gun and commit murder? Look for the differences. The only possible recourse many cities are faced with are to bring charges.

Or to disband the police force as Christie and Camden did..

Where would we be if citizens were not taking videos?

Funny you complaining about unions when unions have pretty much been a tool of the Democrats for ages. I would bet it's easier to fire a policeman than it is a UAW worker.

BTW...... Call it what you want, but Camden didn't really disband their police force, they simply restructured and reformed.
 

Irishize

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Funny you complaining about unions when unions have pretty much been a tool of the Democrats for ages. I would bet it's easier to fire a policeman than it is a UAW worker.

BTW...... Call it what you want, but Camden didn't really disband their police force, they simply restructured and reformed.

Good point. I’ve read where Derek Chauvin was a registered Democrat. The MPD Union is aligned w/ Dem Party as most unions are almost always in lockstep w/ Dems (especially public sector unions). The Mayor is a Democrat & the Governor is a Democrat.
 

Irishize

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It was tied that way during the weekend of the race there in ‘19. Likely not targeting Bubba or anyone. Probably just some dudes sitting around bored and one guy started tying a knot and another guy said “I can do a noose” or something like that.

I feel bad for Bubba, because the usual suspects are on twitter telling everyone how that’s a standard fishing knot, as if the everyday person wouldn’t see that as a noose, and they’re a lefty snowflake if they think it’s a noose, so on and so forth.

Just glad it wasn’t directed at Bubba as a threat or poor joke or message or anything like that. And if the FBI zeroed in on the team that was there in October, I hope some poor bastard doesn’t lose his job over tying a (weird) knot into a rope.

I agree Bubba Wallace was an innocent bystander but wish that NASCAR et al would’ve waited for FBI to complete their investigation in light of all the racial tension in America. I wonder if this was even noticed by anyone last year (other than who ever was involved in fashioning the rope that way). So it was just a horrible coincidence that Wallace’s team was assigned to that particular garage?
 

Irish YJ

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wonder how long this will last.

Minneapolis neighborhood that vowed not to call police in wake of Floyd death is already being tested by 300-strong homeless encampment
https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapo...progressive-sworn-off-police-911-george-floyd

A predominately white, progressive Minneapolis neighborhood that pledged not to call the police in the wake of the death of George Floyd is now dealing with a 300-strong homeless encampment in a local park, according to reports.

Traffic has reportedly increased in the neighborhood around Powderhorn Park, as drug dealers seek to meet their clientele displaced during the civil unrest, rioting and looting following Floyd’s death at the end of May. At least one person overdosed inside the park and was brought out by an ambulance. Prostitution has also been reported in the area.

Residents though have agreed to “check their privilege” and “protect people of color” by not involving law enforcement to report instances of property damage, according to the New York Times.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The homeless have taken over Powderhorn Park in south Minneapolis. In response, the City Park Board approved this behavior in all city parks. <a href="https://t.co/unt3xkANLm">pic.twitter.com/unt3xkANLm</a></p>— Kyle Hooten (@KyleHooten2) <a href="https://twitter.com/KyleHooten2/status/1273849334212317184?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 19, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

Irish YJ

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Good point. I’ve read where Derek Chauvin was a registered Democrat. The MPD Union is aligned w/ Dem Party as most unions are almost always in lockstep w/ Dems (especially public sector unions). The Mayor is a Democrat & the Governor is a Democrat.

I'd be very surprised if the unions hadn't sent millions to local Dem gov campaigns. Like I posted on LA, the LAPD's union was funding 2/3rds of the city council, and had given over a million to the DA.

Like I said to Legacy, this is as much or more a politics problem as it is a police problem.
 

Irish#1

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wonder how long this will last.

Minneapolis neighborhood that vowed not to call police in wake of Floyd death is already being tested by 300-strong homeless encampment
https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapo...progressive-sworn-off-police-911-george-floyd



<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The homeless have taken over Powderhorn Park in south Minneapolis. In response, the City Park Board approved this behavior in all city parks. <a href="https://t.co/unt3xkANLm">pic.twitter.com/unt3xkANLm</a></p>— Kyle Hooten (@KyleHooten2) <a href="https://twitter.com/KyleHooten2/status/1273849334212317184?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 19, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Well bless their hearts for being that caring. The for sale signs will eventually go up and they'll complain about how the market value of their home has plummeted.
 

Legacy

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Good point. I’ve read where Derek Chauvin was a registered Democrat. The MPD Union is aligned w/ Dem Party as most unions are almost always in lockstep w/ Dems (especially public sector unions). The Mayor is a Democrat & the Governor is a Democrat.

Do some posters here really think that it is a Dem-Rep division that prevents real accountability? That if Dems wanted to they would fire all the police who are committing crimes? And the reason they don't is that they are in "lockstep" with the PD? Is a Dem DA or AG that brings charges against an officer that commits a crime looks at their politics?

This makes absolutely no sense. I don't usually reply to spin, but this just boggles the mind.
 

snoopdog

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Do some posters here really think that it is a Dem-Rep division that prevents real accountability? That if Dems wanted to they would fire all the police who are committing crimes? And the reason they don't is that they are in "lockstep" with the PD? Is a Dem DA or AG that brings charges against an officer that commits a crime looks at their politics?

This makes absolutely no sense. I don't usually reply to spin, but this just boggles the mind.

I think the Chauvun Video was so powerful that the Democrats and their press (CNN) saw it as a great opportunity to pin police brutality on Trump and jumped at the chance. The Chauvin video is an aberration of what policing is about, but suddenly the narrative is, the Chauvin murder is what Policing in the USA is....oh and BTW it's all Trump's fault.

I think people with smartphones and mandatory body Cam's and Mic's on police officer's is the only way to true accountability to policing globally.
 

Irishize

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Do some posters here really think that it is a Dem-Rep division that prevents real accountability? That if Dems wanted to they would fire all the police who are committing crimes? And the reason they don't is that they are in "lockstep" with the PD? Is a Dem DA or AG that brings charges against an officer that commits a crime looks at their politics?

This makes absolutely no sense. I don't usually reply to spin, but this just boggles the mind.

That’s why I don’t reply to most of your posts on this subject. You’re doing mental gymnastics to make a mountain out of a mole hill but then when someone suggests those in charge (which happened to be Democratically controlled from top to bottom) are responsible, you cry “spin”?

Former POTUS candidate Klobuchar declined to prosecute the same defendant (Chauvin). To her defense, she moved on by the time she left for another position but the Grand Jury still elected not to prosecute. However, some read that more of a cop out as the case dragged on and she could lame duck it. It seems pretty clear that they have been lax as a city b/c their party has had control for so long, they know they’re not at risk of losing power. Doing the same thing generation after generation yet expecting different results is insanity. You can call it spin but you’re not going to attract as many takers to that line of thinking other than the hyper-partisan.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/amy-klobuchar-previously-declined-to-prosecute-cop/
 
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Bishop2b5

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Do some posters here really think that it is a Dem-Rep division that prevents real accountability? That if Dems wanted to they would fire all the police who are committing crimes? And the reason they don't is that they are in "lockstep" with the PD? Is a Dem DA or AG that brings charges against an officer that commits a crime looks at their politics?

This makes absolutely no sense. I don't usually reply to spin, but this just boggles the mind.

What we believe - and KNOW - is that the cities where most of these problems occur are overwhelmingly controlled by Dems, and have been for decades. The mayors, council members, school boards, police chiefs, and etc. are Dems. You complain that they can't fire bad cops due to the police unions, but it's Dem politicians who've protected the police unions in exchange for campaign contributions. That's what we mean by being in lockstep. Your party has controlled those cities for decades. You've allowed the unions to protect the bad cops. The majority of those Dem run cities are corrupt as hell. Now you complain about the results. Here's how the rest of us feel about it: you made your bed... go lie in it. At least be honest enough and have enough character to admit it, then MAYBE you can start fixing the disasters you created.
 

Irishize

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What we believe - and KNOW - is that the cities where most of these problems occur are overwhelmingly controlled by Dems, and have been for decades. The mayors, council members, school boards, police chiefs, and etc. are Dems. You complain that they can't fire bad cops due to the police unions, but it's Dem politicians who've protected the police unions in exchange for campaign contributions. That's what we mean by being in lockstep. Your party has controlled those cities for decades. You've allowed the unions to protect the bad cops. The majority of those Dem run cities are corrupt as hell. Now you complain about the results. Here's how the rest of us feel about it: you made your bed... go lie in it. At least be honest enough and have enough character to admit it, then MAYBE you can start fixing the disasters you created.

Spot on my friend. Even FDR wanted against private sector unions for obvious reasons.

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...yees/fdr-warned-us-about-public-sector-unions

You can’t have it both ways Legacy.
 
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