PJ Fleck

[Irish Insanity]

Sign me up for the annual 10 win seasons with a playoff birth every couple years and sprinkle a championship in there too. IF we hit that 10 win mark this year that'll be 4 of the last 5. But I can't forget about that 4 win 2016. He's still only averaging 9 wins per year. He's not a bad coach, hell he's a great coach. I just don't think he's an elite one. And I don't think he can bring us a championship. And our record in big games supports that.

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[NDRock]

You are going to be very disappointed then. I think Holtz was one of the greatest ever at ND and he would have only qualified 4 times in his 11 years (if we make it next year that would be 3 of 11 for BK counting the 2012 NC). Holtz has 5 double 10+ win seasons and if we win out this will be BK’s 5th. I also think it is much harder now for ND with the current landscape in college football. I am not saying BK is as good as Holtz, just listing the stats for comparison on how good BK is doing. I am fine having double digit wins every year with a CFP slot every 3-4 years. Makes the season fun and exciting. I just can’t take getting hammered...that needs to stop. BTW only 4 teams have had multiple CFP appearances. To expect it every year just isn’t realistic for a non-football factory.

Could be wrong but I think Lou would have qualified in '88, '89, and '93. Finished 5th twice. Ara would have qualified in '64, '66, and '73. I do find it interesting when people say we should be in the playoffs every few years when two of our greatest wouldn't have done it.

 

[irishff1014]

You are going to be very disappointed then. I think Holtz was one of the greatest ever at ND and he would have only qualified 4 times in his 11 years (if we make it next year that would be 3 of 11 for BK counting the 2012 NC). Holtz has 5 double 10+ win seasons and if we win out this will be BK’s 5th. I also think it is much harder now for ND with the current landscape in college football. I am not saying BK is as good as Holtz, just listing the stats for comparison on how good BK is doing. I am fine having double digit wins every year with a CFP slot every 3-4 years. Makes the season fun and exciting. I just can’t take getting hammered...that needs to stop. BTW only 4 teams have had multiple CFP appearances. To expect it every year just isn’t realistic for a non-football factory.

A lot of truth to this post and the facts back it up. Sometimes the all or nothing gets the best of us. We I played the multiple sports I did when always said second is the first loser and man our coaches hated that.

Now older and if I was a coach I wouldn’t be ok with the team saying that.

 

[Wingman Ray]

You are going to be very disappointed then. I think Holtz was one of the greatest ever at ND and he would have only qualified 4 times in his 11 years (if we make it next year that would be 3 of 11 for BK counting the 2012 NC). Holtz has 5 double 10+ win seasons and if we win out this will be BK’s 5th. I also think it is much harder now for ND with the current landscape in college football. I am not saying BK is as good as Holtz, just listing the stats for comparison on how good BK is doing. I am fine having double digit wins every year with a CFP slot every 3-4 years. Makes the season fun and exciting. I just can’t take getting hammered...that needs to stop. BTW only 4 teams have had multiple CFP appearances. To expect it every year just isn’t realistic for a non-football factory.

This.

If you are going to be a ND fan, you have to live with the fact that your team wont be the best of the best most years. ND is just not built for that with its academic requirements, population and location. If ND sacrificed any of those things, it wouldnt be the ND you love. It would just be a smaller OSU.

Honestly, can you please give me one team in CFB that remotely plays as tough a schedule year in, year out as ND? No one in the SEC nor B10 does. Despite Sabans crying that no one wants to play Bama but D2 teams, Bama's schedule has become laughable and honestly, a real crime to its season ticket holders that spend a lot of money every year. OSU hasnt played a difficult schedule in so long it is just expected.

Imagine this year if ND didnt play GA, one of the toughest teams in the country the last ten years? It would be sitting one loss and discussion of being in the playoffs. Take out Michigan, who for the life of me, I cannot fathom why ND agreed to play those pricks again after getting out of the contract. Michigan does nothing for ND. It insults and insults them and the hand is so skewed towards Mich with B10 refs that it isnt fair. ND is the bigger name now so I see zero reason to play them. Play a Texas or Florida or Baylor or UCLA instead.

 

[Rogue219]

Rumors have been ND is high on his list. One of the top posters here said Fleck is all about ND via Fleck's BFF.

I can just repeat the words of two very uber connected alums that Fleck's a no go.

Not at all surprised by any of this.

 

[Rogue219]

Neither. Just an ND fan who's happy to have one of the few coaches nationally who can average 10+ wins a season in South Bend now, and I'm not willing to show him the door for anyone who's not an obvious upgrade. I'd say I was pretty ambivalent about Fleck coming into this season, but I'm trending anti- in light of all the unmerited adulation he's receiving around here.

He seems to do pretty well with building a program. He's Midwest based. If he's Catholic he's pretty much a green wet dream for this fan base.

I'm not ready to get rid of Kelly if he goes 10-2. He has a chance to do that. I just think the guy is burned out. I could be wrong.

No doubt his career trajectory is pointed up right now. But his resume is objectively inferior to Kelly's during his 2nd year at Cinci. Kelly took over a "dog meat" CMU team in 2004 and had won the MAC by year 3.

Kelly took a longer path, yes. He came up through different times. The game has changed. Society changed. Notre Dame probably hasn't, and if they have, they've changed minimally at best. Guys move up fast now. Take what you can get when you can get it.

No doubt he's going to jump to a better job in 2021. But his only accomplishment at Minnesota thus far is knocking off a hugely over-rated PSU team after playing one of the softest schedules in the Power 5. Let's see him win the B1G West and look competitive in the conference title game before we continue salivating over Fleck.

Again, he seems to get things moving where they otherwise have not moved previously. You take a program to a 9-0 record for the first time in 115 years, I think you're doing something right. Schedule might be soft but they made it before he was hired and they haven't been 9-0 since the turn of the previous century.

Glad to hear that. If Kelly wants out, Fleck probably becomes a more realistic option. But you don't fire someone like Kelly (or Richt at Georgia) for a Fleck. You hold onto those guys until you've got a sure-fire upgrade, like John Harbaugh, Bob Stoops, Urban Meyer, etc.

I have to go back and see if I said anything about firing Kelly. I know others have, but I need to check my posts. I'm merely talking about Fleck since the thread is called.... PJ Fleck. I don't think anyone needs to be fired now or ever. I think there should be a gauging of interest, even if through back channels. That's it. Not an uncommon practice in sports when it comes to jobs.

Fleck was on the short-list when ND formed a search committee to look into replacing Kelly after 2016. So contact has already been made, and we've already vetted him. I'm sure we could have him if we wanted.

Even if this is true, that was three years ago. He's probably a different person now than he was then, perhaps in many ways for the better.

It's not completely irrelevant, but the recent discussion here about the importance of moral character in our head coaches had much more to do with Urban Meyer than Fleck. If Kelly hits the eject button and ND decides that Fleck is the best candidate available, I'd fully expect him to get the offer. But as I mentioned above, Kelly choosing to leave is a very different set of circumstances than arguing that ND fire him for Fleck.

This all centers on my belief that Kelly is just worn down to me, or at least worn down looking. Maybe stepping down for his own sake might be a good thing. I don't see that happening, and I still believe if they beat BC they'll finish 10-2 with a shot at 11-2. Hard to fire someone based on those results. It isn't an easy job.

Michigan triggered a lot of this. Completely understand why some are freaking out. I have questions too, but I'm not setting the house on fire because some water got in the basement.

As for moral character, we're talking about a profession full of what I'd call undesirables. They already have their high academic standards, but if they're looking for altar boys in a profession full of smokers in the boys room, it's going to make it that much harder for them if they choose to nitpick. Catholics have confession for a reason I thought.

I think the program is in the best shape it's been in for years. I just worry about the shape of the man running it.

Thank you for the discussion.

 

[Irish#1]

Unrelated to Fleck and more on BK. Has he taken us as far as he can? He made the change with BVG that paid immediate dividends. We were in the playoffs just last year. He tried upgrading the offense and given the rumblings, I expect BK will not stay with Long like he did with BVG and we'll have a new OC next year. Recruiting has been getting better as well. I'm seeing continuous improvement. We'd all like to see that big immediate leap, but given the standards BK has to work within, that's not going to happen. I will say we're on our way.

 

[ThePiombino]

Unrelated to Fleck and more on BK. Has he taken us as far as he can? He made the change with BVG that paid immediate dividends. We were in the playoffs just last year. He tried upgrading the offense and given the rumblings, I expect BK will not stay with Long like he did with BVG and we'll have a new OC next year. Recruiting has been getting better as well. I'm seeing continuous improvement. We'd all like to see that big immediate leap, but given the standards BK has to work within, that's not going to happen. I will say we're on our way.

I tend to agree with this, but it's 100% dependent on making a move at OC

 

[Rogue219]

Unrelated to Fleck and more on BK. Has he taken us as far as he can? He made the change with BVG that paid immediate dividends. We were in the playoffs just last year. He tried upgrading the offense and given the rumblings, I expect BK will not stay with Long like he did with BVG and we'll have a new OC next year. Recruiting has been getting better as well. I'm seeing continuous improvement. We'd all like to see that big immediate leap, but given the standards BK has to work within, that's not going to happen. I will say we're on our way.

I think he cost himself time and wins by hiring guys from his Grand Valley Rolodex. Van Gorder was a massive miss of a hire. I know that's his boy, but that set the program back. He managed to recover very well by hiring Long and Elko, and getting Lea as part of the Elko deal.

People want Long's head now. I don't know that I'd fire him. I wasn't a fan of the Jeff Quinn hire for the reasons I've just listed. It felt like a good ol' boy hire ala BVG. Again, JQ and the OL are taking some heat. Have to wait and see. It takes a pretty bold CEO to fire guys like this. Long and Quinn's units are not performing worse than BVG's defense was at the time he was let go.

If he's going to be around ND any further, he has to extend his reach when he goes to hire assistant coaches. Especially coordinators. He's established himself as an HC and has the ND brand behind him now. He should be able to attract talent that hasn't worked with him at previous stops.

I feel like he's narrowed the recruiting field by choice.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

Unrelated to Fleck and more on BK. Has he taken us as far as he can? He made the change with BVG that paid immediate dividends. We were in the playoffs just last year. He tried upgrading the offense and given the rumblings, I expect BK will not stay with Long like he did with BVG and we'll have a new OC next year. Recruiting has been getting better as well. I'm seeing continuous improvement. We'd all like to see that big immediate leap, but given the standards BK has to work within, that's not going to happen. I will say we're on our way.

It's all for not anyways, BK isn't getting canned unless they somehow lose out down the stretch...so, yeah BK isn't getting fired. The real question is could a guy like Fleck come in and develop and lead young players better than Kelly, I believe the answer to be yes. BK doesn't have an ounce of that fire that he did when he got here, ND has beat him down, and understandably so.

Like someone else mentioned up above tho, rolling in consecutive 10 win seasons seemed to have spiked recruiting, the 20/21 classes are the beginnings of championship material. Also, if he switches OC's this offseason then I could see them having success. I just really need to see Kelly go toe to toe with an equal or better coach on the big stage for me to believe that he can be the guy...and it may not even be all BK, it may be the 1-17 against Top 5 opponents since 2000, but the 0-5 under BK doesn't help anything. Maybe we're as far as we can go under his tutelage, maybe he has one more gear. Either way, we're gonna find out these last couple of years on his contract.

 

[Free Manera]

I think he cost himself time and wins by hiring guys from his Grand Valley Rolodex. Van Gorder was a massive miss of a hire. I know that's his boy, but that set the program back. He managed to recover very well by hiring Long and Elko, and getting Lea as part of the Elko deal.

People want Long's head now. I don't know that I'd fire him. I wasn't a fan of the Jeff Quinn hire for the reasons I've just listed. It felt like a good ol' boy hire ala BVG. Again, JQ and the OL are taking some heat. Have to wait and see. It takes a pretty bold CEO to fire guys like this. Long and Quinn's units are not performing worse than BVG's defense was at the time he was let go.

If he's going to be around ND any further, he has to extend his reach when he goes to hire assistant coaches. Especially coordinators. He's established himself as an HC and has the ND brand behind him now. He should be able to attract talent that hasn't worked with him at previous stops.

I feel like he's narrowed the recruiting field by choice.

This might sound ND Nationy but can't ND hire a coordinator from a big program for once? Just pony up and steal a guy away from a Power 5 team, like Ohio State has done to ND in the past.

I don't know that I would part with Long yet, but if he walks to take a head job in the offseason, go for someone like Mike Yurcich, Marcus Arroyo, or Jeff Scott (he is co-coordinator at Clemson so being primary is a step up). Someone that faces good coaches and talented defenses on a weekly basis, and still has success.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

This might sound ND Nationy but can't ND hire a coordinator from a big program for once? Just pony up and steal a guy away from a Power 5 team, like Ohio State has done to ND in the past.

I don't know that I would part with Long yet, but if he walks to take a head job in the offseason, go for someone like Mike Yurcich, Marcus Arroyo, or Jeff Scott (he is co-coordinator at Clemson so being primary is a step up). Someone that faces good coaches and talented defenses on a weekly basis, and still has success.

It's really hard to discern where the line is, like whether it's a product of poor offensive scheming and playcalling on Long's part, or whether it's Book having seemingly regressed and being the 3* guy that he is, with expectant 3* limitations.

 

[dad4aa]

I know they have gone after some big time coordinators in the past but we’re turned down. No clue What the reason was but they have tried. Hopefully the next time they will succeed.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

I know they have gone after some big time coordinators in the past but we’re turned down. No clue What the reason was but they have tried. Hopefully the next time they will succeed.

Hasn't it normally been that they weren't willing to pay what some of the other upper echelon programs were?

 

[dad4aa]

Hasn't it normally been that they weren't willing to pay what some of the other upper echelon programs were?

In the past yes. I know they offered a great deal to Elko who just used it to negotiate more. IIRC he would have been in the top 5 highest paid. Not sure what we are paying Lea but I’m pretty sure they will outbid anyone who comes looking.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

In the past yes. I know they offered a great deal to Elko who just used it to negotiate more. IIRC he would have been in the top 5 highest paid. Not sure what we are paying Lea but I’m pretty sure they will outbid anyone who comes looking.

Well, they can probably get PJ Fleck to come in as OC, or at least WR coach.

 

[Blazers46]

Brian Kelly ascended the ranks. Big winner at Grand Valley State University. Move to Central Michigan University and win some more. Move to Cincinnati and a big winner. Move on to Notre Dame. Kelly, like Fleck, was successful at every stop.

Kelly has improved Notre Dame and deserves credit for doing that, but he has not taken ND to an elite level. There is no reason to think that PJ Fleck can take Notre Dame to an elite level either. Does anyone really believe PJ Fleck is ready to coach and recruit at the same level as Urban, Saban, and Dabo after one successful year at Minnesota?

Sure. I think Fleck going 9-0 in just one season at Minnesota and beating #4 Penn State is probably just as, if not more, impressive than Brian Kelly at Cinci beating over-rated top 25 Big East schools here and there.

Furthermore, why isn't Minn in the top 4? Undefeated and just beat the #4 team in the country....

**I will add. For all Brian Kelly did at Cinci he was 1-2 in bowl games and the biggest win was the Papa Johns Bowl against Southern Miss....

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

Sure. I think Fleck going 9-0 in just one season at Minnesota and beating #4 Penn State is probably just as, if not more, impressive than Brian Kelly at Cinci beating over-rated top 25 Big East schools here and there.

Furthermore, why isn't Minn in the top 4? Undefeated and just beat the #4 team in the country....

This is his 3rd year at Minnesota, but yes it's very impressive.

 

[Blazers46]

[QUOTE=Blazers46;2140136]Sure. I think Fleck going 9-0 in just one season at Minnesota and beating #4 Penn State is probably just as, if not more, impressive than Brian Kelly at Cinci beating over-rated top 25 Big East schools here and there.

Furthermore, why isn't Minn in the top 4? Undefeated and just beat the #4 team in the country....

This is his 3rd year at Minnesota[/QUOTE]

Probably could have written it better. What I am saying is Flecks season this year (this one season) trumps Kelly's 3 years at Cinci beating on Big East teams.

 

[Rogue219]

This might sound ND Nationy but can't ND hire a coordinator from a big program for once? Just pony up and steal a guy away from a Power 5 team, like Ohio State has done to ND in the past.

I don't know that I would part with Long yet, but if he walks to take a head job in the offseason, go for someone like Mike Yurcich, Marcus Arroyo, or Jeff Scott (he is co-coordinator at Clemson so being primary is a step up). Someone that faces good coaches and talented defenses on a weekly basis, and still has success.

I don't care where the guy comes from. He's got to be good and be a good recruiter. LSU went out of the box for their OC. Good early returns so far.

Take KC Chiefs QB coach Mike Kafka, for example. He's in the Andy Reid offense right now as an NFL assistant. Pretty young guy. Born in Chicago, went to Chicago St. Rita, attended Northwestern. Probably wants to work his way up the ladder.

That checks a lot of boxes for ND on paper in terms of a fit. He might not be at Ohio State, Clemson or Alabama but hitting on a hire like this could put ND right at the front with them if they get a guy who can put up points and develop talent.

I want somebody GOOD. Someone innovative that will drive results and not be stuck in 2005. You don't need a search firm to find this person either. Act like an athletic administration should and do the work to find someone. Smaller schools do this and then lose their guys to bigger schools. ND is never going to splash money at Urban Meyer or a high priced play caller, but they can attract plenty of good candidates. They're out there.

 

[ThePiombino]

Sure. I think Fleck going 9-0 in just one season at Minnesota and beating #4 Penn State is probably just as, if not more, impressive than Brian Kelly at Cinci beating over-rated top 25 Big East schools here and there.

Furthermore, why isn't Minn in the top 4? Undefeated and just beat the #4 team in the country....

**I will add. For all Brian Kelly did at Cinci he was 1-2 in bowl games and the biggest win was the Papa Johns Bowl against Southern Miss....

You shouldn't have, because it's wrong. He was 2-1 at Cinci in bowl games. He coached the 2006 International Bowl victory over Western Michigan, but did not coach the 2010 Sugar Bowl against Florida. You are correct about the Papa Johns Bowl.

 

[Blazers46]

You shouldn't have, because it's wrong. He was 2-1 at Cinci in bowl games. He coached the 2006 International Bowl victory over Western Michigan, but did not coach the 2010 Sugar Bowl against Florida. You are correct about the Papa Johns Bowl.

Yeah, I am wrong. Still Flecks season this year is better than anything Kelly accomplished at Cinci all years combined.

 

[BabyIrish]

Unrelated to Fleck and more on BK. Has he taken us as far as he can? He made the change with BVG that paid immediate dividends. We were in the playoffs just last year. He tried upgrading the offense and given the rumblings, I expect BK will not stay with Long like he did with BVG and we'll have a new OC next year. Recruiting has been getting better as well. I'm seeing continuous improvement. We'd all like to see that big immediate leap, but given the standards BK has to work within, that's not going to happen. I will say we're on our way.

I personally think Kelly has what it takes to win a championship. You could argue we were the second best team last year. The players we have coming in on offense could put us over the top and if we could get an elite OC, I think it can and will be done under Kelly.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

I don't care where the guy comes from. He's got to be good and be a good recruiter. LSU went out of the box for their OC. Good early returns so far.

Take KC Chiefs QB coach Mike Kafka, for example. He's in the Andy Reid offense right now as an NFL assistant. Pretty young guy. Born in Chicago, went to Chicago St. Rita, attended Northwestern. Probably wants to work his way up the ladder.

That checks a lot of boxes for ND on paper in terms of a fit. He might not be at Ohio State, Clemson or Alabama but hitting on a hire like this could put ND right at the front with them if they get a guy who can put up points and develop talent.

I want somebody GOOD. Someone innovative that will drive results and not be stuck in 2005. You don't need a search firm to find this person either. Act like an athletic administration should and do the work to find someone. Smaller schools do this and then lose their guys to bigger schools. ND is never going to splash money at Urban Meyer or a high priced play caller, but they can attract plenty of good candidates. They're out there.

Man, this right here.

BK isn't going anywhere, at least not til he leaves for another gig, or retires. So, get a better OC. That transformation that LSU made this year is remarkable, and it wasn't gradual, it instantly changed. I mean, Joe Burrow appears to be an incredible quarterback...but is he? What about Jalen Hurts, all of the sudden in Oklahoma's system he's a Heisman candidate, looking like Lamar Jackson's brother. Maybe the disfunct stemming from the QB situation has been more systemic than personnel?

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Yeah, I am wrong. Still Flecks season this year is better than anything Kelly accomplished at Cinci all years combined.

Just using Sagarin because I'm not sure what else was around then and we want to avoid the bias of "overrated Big East teams," Kelly's 2009 Cincinnati team ended the year ranked 8th and played the 44th toughest schedule. Right now Sagarin has Minnesota as the 18th best team against the 70th best schedule.

I suppose the argument for Fleck is that his team beat Sagarin's currently #6 Penn State team whereas the best team BK's Cincinnati beat ended the year at #16 (Pittsburgh). I realize the most common current complaint against BK is losing the biggest games [I don't disagree] but I think people are overvaluing Minnesota at the moment based on a shiny record and one (huge) win.

They have @Iowa, @Northwestern, and Wisconsin remaining. They may also get OSU in the conference title game. I think the next month or so is going to tell us a lot about the quality of Minnesota.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

They have @Iowa, @Northwestern, and Wisconsin remaining. They may also get OSU in the conference title game. I think the next month or so is going to tell us a lot about the quality of Minnesota.

Couldn't agree more, I'm excited to see how he handles the next month or so.

As far as the appeal of Fleck, for me anyways, it isn't so much resume based as it is the charisma and inspiration he seems to employ. It legit reminds of Dabo Swinney, a guy that kids would give their absolute all for. What happened against Michigan, not just the score, but the seeming lack of fire and nobody playing with any purpose, you could just tell the fire was completely extinguished. I believe with a coach like Fleck, or Swinney, that wouldn't happen, they're like a 5* General ushering their troops into battle, keeping morale sky high, imploring feelings of invincibility. I want that.

 

[NDdomer2]

so much conjecture in this thread

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

so much conjecture in this forum...everywhere.

FIFY

 

[irishnd31]

so much conjecture in this thread

Reps for using, "conjecture" in a thread.

 

[ulukinatme]

Just using Sagarin because I'm not sure what else was around then and we want to avoid the bias of "overrated Big East teams," Kelly's 2009 Cincinnati team ended the year ranked 8th and played the 44th toughest schedule. Right now Sagarin has Minnesota as the 18th best team against the 70th best schedule.

I suppose the argument for Fleck is that his team beat Sagarin's currently #6 Penn State team whereas the best team BK's Cincinnati beat ended the year at #16 (Pittsburgh). I realize the most common current complaint against BK is losing the biggest games [I don't disagree] but I think people are overvaluing Minnesota at the moment based on a shiny record and one (huge) win.

They have @Iowa, @Northwestern, and Wisconsin remaining. They may also get OSU in the conference title game. I think the next month or so is going to tell us a lot about the quality of Minnesota.

Well said. Fleck is a good coach, but it's hard to really gauge where Minnesota is at because they really have one big win and that's it. If Fleck is at least competitive in November and can show he can consistently put together a good season next year as well, I would be on board with bringing him in once Kelly is done. Right now there just isn't enough data to confirm if he's a flash in the pan or not.