Oversigning Recruits

[phork]

In the SEC math is more like fuzzy logic. Approximations are used extensively.

 

[ALLGATOR]

In the SEC math is more like fuzzy logic. Approximations are used extensively.

this guy gets it

 

[connor_in]

Math break: 30 is >, = , < , 36?

Circle the correct answer.

Don't know how to circle online so how is this ^

I learned the Chris the greedy duck method...Chris always wanted the larger amount so his mouth was always open to the larger number...in this case, Chris would eat the 36.


Do I pass?

 

[ALLGATOR]

while we are on the subject of oversigning when does ND decide if a kid gets a 5th year or not?

 

[chicago51]

If we take all oversigned athletes from all the schools in the SEC we would have enough over a 4 year period to make another team.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

while we are on the subject of oversigning when does ND decide if a kid gets a 5th year or not?

Strangely enough, the players have to apply, with a program acceptance in hand. In otherwords, they have to get into grad school and apply to the university for use of that extra year. The admission is viewed on an academic basis first. Then the coach is consulted. This used to be an entirely academic decision, back in the dark ages, because in the past players that the coaches would have loved to have back were not considered because of their academic standings. I could name one or two, but I wouldn't.

Again, not like anything anyone from any other school has experienced.

(P.S. I remember the row last year. There has not been a change on the university's side, but on the coaches and players side from what I have heard. Players know what is expected from them [and much earlier] and the football staff emphasizes providing assistance as if it were part of the normal recruiting process.)

 

[ALLGATOR]

Strangely enough, the players have to apply, with a program acceptance in hand. In otherwords, they have to get into grad school and apply to the university for use of that extra year. The admission is viewed on an academic basis first. Then the coach is consulted. This used to be an entirely academic decision, back in the dark ages, because in the past players that the coaches would have loved to have back were not considered because of their academic standings. I could name one or two, but I wouldn't.

Again, not like anything anyone from any other school has experienced.

So if Kelly says no they have to go? What time of the year is all of this done typically?

 

[IrishLax]

So if Kelly says no they have to go? What time of the year is all of this done typically?

After the end of the season, obviously. All prospective 5th year students have to apply to a full time graduate program and have graduated in 4 years to even be eligible for a 5th year.

Notre Dame does not redshirt in the traditional sense.

 

[IrishLax]

They have 9 EE's

So they're currently sitting at 27 kids for this class and actively looking to add more. That is textbook oversigning.

 

[Son of Kenmare]

I see a Saturday Night Live skit hear.

Queue prospective commit sitting on stage in his (Insert SEC Team here) hat ready to sign his letter of intent. Just as his pen hits the paper, (SEC Coach) comes from under the table and snatches the LOI and runs. As the player sits there with jaw dropped, SEC coach comes back for the hat.

 

[chicago51]

TAMU has oversigned worse than I do on NCAA 13.

Who doesn't oversign in NCAA dynasties lol. I got 13 now but in my last NCAA 12 dysnasty I actually tried not to oversign and the computer oversigned for me.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I don't know the whole thing. I know how it used to be back in the day. I think if you don't have implicit support from the staff, the process doesn't get started.

I think it is ironic that people crowed that Michael Floyd was Kelly's best and six star recruit. Because I believe from what I heard, Kelly was a true believer that most linemen needed five years. And if he didn't have a dependable back end, his red-shirting (sic) would go for naught. Who would want to play for a school where you only got three years?

I think the process was totally skewed toward the academic side. So in his politically complementary fashion, Kelly brought application and response under the wing of the staff, just like he fought for a decent training table.

 

[Walter White]

So if Kelly says no they have to go? What time of the year is all of this done typically?

Yes they apply, then have to get through admissions, then Kelly gets to pick.

Normally within the next two months I believe.

 

[ALLGATOR]

Yes they apply, then have to get through admissions, then Kelly gets to pick.

Normally within the next two months I believe.

so ND could sign a class that would have them on pace to be over the 85 scholarship limit if the seniors wanted to stay for a 5th year?

 

[Ndaccountant]

so ND could sign a class that would have them on pace to be over the 85 scholarship limit if the seniors wanted to stay for a 5th year?

I see what you are trying to do, but that really doesn't apply here since all 5th years everywhere are treated the same in this regard. I have never seen a 5th year player that wasn't asked to come back on any team.

 

[Walter White]

so ND could sign a class that would have them on pace to be over the 85 scholarship limit if the seniors wanted to stay for a 5th year?

No, the 5th year guys are not guaranteed and a lot of times they already have jobs lined up and chose not to come back even if they've been asked to. They announce the 5th years after national signing day to match up the numbers.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Dayne Crist.

 

[Ironman8]

so ND could sign a class that would have them on pace to be over the 85 scholarship limit if the seniors wanted to stay for a 5th year?

No because no 5th year players are considered part of the team until they are both asked back and accepted into the program. All the graduating players are more or less off the roster until they are accepted back.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

so ND could sign a class that would have them on pace to be over the 85 scholarship limit if the seniors wanted to stay for a 5th year?

No. Because nobody is counted as a fifth year until after signing day. Not even a Michael Floyd.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLGATOR
so ND could sign a class that would have them on pace to be over the 85 scholarship limit if the seniors wanted to stay for a 5th year?

No because no 5th year players are considered part of the team until they are both asked back and accepted into the program. All the graduating players are more or less off the roster until they are accepted back.
__________________
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLGATOR
so ND could sign a class that would have them on pace to be over the 85 scholarship limit if the seniors wanted to stay for a 5th year?

No. Because nobody is counted as a fifth year until after signing day. Not even a Michael Floyd.
__________________
"I feel that I am the only one in the stands that understands, clearly, that I have no real idea what's going on out there.” Dave Casper

Wow! Brilliant minds really do think alike, huh, Ironman?

 

[NOLAIrish]

so ND could sign a class that would have them on pace to be over the 85 scholarship limit if the seniors wanted to stay for a 5th year?

Even if you could -- which other posters above me have disputed -- the practice would completely avoid the ethical concerns raised by oversigning.

Notre Dame has provided the student with the education he was promised and 4 years worth of opportunity to compete for playing time on its football team. That's exactly what they signed up for. Unlike the reaction to oversigning, which is to hide players with grayshirts, to force medicals on healthy players, to pull scholarships, to lean on players to transfer, etc. It's not simply that a school has oversigned that's the issue, it's what results from the oversigning that we find problematic.

And if you think this 5th year thing is a secret, you've never visited Notre Dame as a prospective student. Admissions makes it clear as crystal that they expect everyone at Notre Dame be through the program and out making their worldly contribution within 4 years.

 

[IrishLax]

so ND could sign a class that would have them on pace to be over the 85 scholarship limit if the seniors wanted to stay for a 5th year?

Yeah see I already addressed this about 10 posts ago quite succinctly....

"All prospective 5th year students have to apply to a full time graduate program and have graduated in 4 years to even be eligible for a 5th year.

Notre Dame does not redshirt in the traditional sense."

Just another case of trollface here playing intentionally stupid.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Yeah see I already addressed this about 10 posts ago quite succinctly....

"All prospective 5th year students have to apply to a full time graduate program and have graduated in 4 years to even be eligible for a 5th year.

Notre Dame does not redshirt in the traditional sense."

Just another case of trollface here playing intentionally stupid.

I agree with you completely and succinctly! On every point.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Do they have 11 EEs? And even if they did they couldn't count them all against last year's class.

I think there's some confusion or misunderstanding about EE's. Some seem to think they must count against the previous year's recruiting class. They don't. An EE isn't counted any differently than a recruit who signs on NSD. They're just players who finished HS early, enrolled at your school in January and started attending classes a few weeks before NSD. They count towards your upcoming class for that year exactly the same as the kids who are still in HS, don't sign until NSD, and don't begin classes until the following summer or fall.

The school can go ahead and award them the scholarship so they can enroll in January, start attending classes, and participate in workouts. Per NCAA rules, once the school pays for them to enroll and the kid attends his first class, it's tantamount to him signing. He's committed to the school exactly the same as if he'd already signed, and the school has committed one of it's 25 scholarships to him.

 

[chubler]

Just doing some thinking on gameday, maybe my brain is being influenced by ESPN constantly hyping Bama's O-line which apparently is better than most NFL lines...

Is it possible that Bama and LSU are simply forced to "oversign" due to the amount of talent they lose as juniors to the NFL?

I hope not...

 

[Bishop2b5]

Just doing some thinking on gameday, maybe my brain is being influenced by ESPN constantly hyping Bama's O-line which apparently is better than most NFL lines...

Is it possible that Bama and LSU are simply forced to "oversign" due to the amount of talent they lose as juniors to the NFL?

I hope not...

We've had quite a few juniors leave early for the NFL the past few years - an average of about 3 per year. It doesn't allow us to oversign, since we can still only bring in a maximum of 25 new recruits per year, but it does free up some space on the roster and helps keep us from having to undersign in a class to stay below 85.

 

[Ndaccountant]

We've had quite a few juniors leave early for the NFL the past few years - an average of about 3 per year. It doesn't allow us to oversign, since we can still only bring in a maximum of 25 new recruits per year, but it does free up some space on the roster and helps keep us from having to undersign in a class to stay below 85.

What juniors have left besides Clausen, Tate, Rudolph and Walker? I would say there have been a few that have left, as seniors, with a potential 5th year but I can't remember that many juniors leaving.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

What juniors have left besides Clausen, Tate, Rudolph and Walker? I would say there have been a few that have left, as seniors, with a potential 5th year but I can't remember that many juniors leaving.

Pssst. The we he is referring to is Bama!

 

[chubler]

ok i decided to man up and actually check it out myself.
According to wikipedia's page listing alabama players drafted into the nfl (wouldnt be surprised if i missed something):

After the 2011 season, bama lost 2 juniors to the draft: Trent Richardson and Dre Kirkpatrick.

After the 2010 season, bama lost 3 juniors to the draft: Mark Ingram, Julio Jones, and Marcell Dareus.

After the 2009 season, bama lost 2 juniors to the draft: Kareem Jackson and Rolando McClain.

After the 2008 season, bama lost 2 juniors to the draft: Glen Coffee and Andre Smith.

That should match up with the 2009-2012 recruiting classes, no?

per rivals team rankings listings:
in 2009, bama had 27 recruits.
in 2010, they had 26.
in 2011, 22.
in 2012, 26.

Thats a total of 101 over the last 4 years.
101 -2 -3 -2 -2 gives us a running total of 92.

as of february 7th, 2011, which stays within the time frame im using, according to this article (Nick Saban Tries and Fails To Defend Oversigning at Alabama | The Big Lead)
saban had given out 12 medical harships (for comparison, jim tressel of ohio state fame gave out 4. Ever.)

so, 92-12= 80?

to further muddy the waters, a quick google search found me a this link (AndrewJBone: RT @ChaseGoodbread: Tidesports subscribers - 13 active Alabama transfers: Where are they now and how did they fare? We tracked 'em down ...)

to a premium article tracking 13 active alabama transfers (they must have transfered out of bama with the timeframe i'm tracking to be active as of dec. 17 2012).
that takes our total from 80 to...

67???

is nick saban using his black magic to conjure players, or where are they coming from?? ideas/elaboration on this very crude analysis? i feel like im missing something.

 

[BGIF]

I think there's some confusion or misunderstanding about EE's. Some seem to think they must count against the previous year's recruiting class. They don't. An EE isn't counted any differently than a recruit who signs on NSD. They're just players who finished HS early, enrolled at your school in January and started attending classes a few weeks before NSD. They count towards your upcoming class for that year exactly the same as the kids who are still in HS, don't sign until NSD, and don't begin classes until the following summer or fall.

The school can go ahead and award them the scholarship so they can enroll in January, start attending classes, and participate in workouts. Per NCAA rules, once the school pays for them to enroll and the kid attends his first class, it's tantamount to him signing. He's committed to the school exactly the same as if he'd already signed, and the school has committed one of it's 25 scholarships to him.

Please provide an NCAA rule cite for your opinion above. It doesn't agree with the current NCAA Rules on Counters.

An FBS Early Entrance in January 2012 that graduated in Dec 2012 could count against the 2012 academic year if space is available (25/85) OR against the incoming class arriving next August for the Fall Semester of 2013 if space is available (25/85). There is an option but the individual still is a counter against a Year Total and the Team Total.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D113.pdf

15.5.6.3 Initial Counters—Football (Also see Bylaw 15.02.3.1).
15.5.6.3.1 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering in Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters in the fall term and receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) during the first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that year in football. Therefore, such aid shall not be awarded if the institution has reached its limit on the number of initial counters prior to the award of institutional financial
aid to the student-athlete. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
216
15.5.6.3.2 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering After Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters after the first term of the academic year and immediately receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) shall be an initial counter for either the current academic year (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or the next academic year. The student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total
counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.3 Recruited Student-Athlete, Aid Received After First Year. [FBS/FCS] A recruited student-athlete (per Bylaw 15.02.8) (including a student-athlete who was not a qualifier) who first receives athletically related financial aid after the student-athlete’s first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that academic year in which the aid is first received, if such aid is received during the fall term. However, such a student-athlete who first receives athletically related financial aid in the second or third term of an academic year may be considered an initial counter during the academic year in which aid was first received or the next academic year. In either case, the student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/3/06,
1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.5 Midyear Replacement. [FBS/FCS] A counter who graduates at midyear or who graduates during the previous academic year (including summer) may be replaced by an initial counter, who shall be counted against the initial limit either for the year in which the aid is awarded (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or for the following academic year, or by a student-athlete who was an initial counter in a previous academic year and is returning to the institution after time spent on active duty in the armed services or on an official religious mission. In bowl subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year to the maximum number of overall counters (85 total counters). In championship subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year that equals the maximum number of overall equivalencies or overall counters.
(Revised: 4/20/99 effective 8/1/99, 6/8/99, 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01, 8/2/05, 12/15/06, 1/14/08 effective 8/1/08,
4/2/10, 1/15/11)