Orlando attack - terrorism suspected

[goldandblue]

How many attacks happened that were not "radical Islamic attacks?"

Several. My post was in regards to your idiotic statement about the attacks happening because of Trump. Please see the originally bolded comment in my initial reply. In typical Liberal fashion though, you disregard the facts presented to you and try to steer the conversation in support of your ideals down the next closest rabbit hole.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

Don't be dense. They don't murder infidels because we call them mean names. They murder infidels because their prophet tells them to. The problem with Islamic mass murders is not that they're mass murders who happen to be Islamic. The problem is that Islam is the source of their murderous motivation.

Obama doesn't use the term "radical islamic terrorism" like the republicans like to point out because it legitimizes groups like ISIS and validates their narrative. This directly results in American military and civilian deaths. He chooses to value the lives of Americans over placating grandstanding republicans.

 

[wizards8507]

Obama doesn't use the term "radical islamic terrorism" like the republicans like to point out because it legitimizes groups like ISIS and validates their narrative. This directly results in American military and civilian deaths. He chooses to value the lives of Americans over placating grandstanding republicans.

Absolutely false. Obama calling them ISIL instead of ISIS validates them far more than using the term "Islamic terrorism."

 

[NorthDakota]

Obama doesn't use the term "radical islamic terrorism" like the republicans like to point out because it legitimizes groups like ISIS and validates their narrative. This directly results in American military and civilian deaths. He chooses to value the lives of Americans over placating grandstanding republicans.

Pretty sure they've already been legitimized....

 

[GoIrish41]

Don't be dense. They don't murder infidels because we call them mean names. They murder infidels because their prophet tells them to. The problem with Islamic mass murders is not that they're mass murders who happen to be Islamic. The problem is that Islam is the source of their murderous motivation.

I would think that if this was the case, far more Muslim attacks would be happening in this country. There are, what, 3 million Muslims living in the United States and only a small handfull of attacks. Since you have it all figured out, what is the source of all the murders that are not committed by Muslims? This is obviously the far bigger problem.

 

[wizards8507]

Since you have it all figured out, what is the source of all the murders that are not committed by Muslims? This is obviously the far bigger problem.

What is "fatherlessness in the inner cities, Alex"?

But I suspect you don't like that answer, either.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

What is "fatherlessness in the inner cities, Alex"?

But I suspect you don't like that answer, either.

How Bill O Reily of you to make a comment like that...

 

[wizards8507]

How Bill O Reily of you to make a comment like that...

Bill O'Reilly is a fucking idiot. He loves him some gun control.

The number of inner city kids with a father in the home is something like 20%. Broken families are not the way to build sustainable communities and responsible citizens.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Agreed.

Name on list = can't fly, but can own a gun. Makes zero sense and every one knows it's because the NRA owns these guys.

I got in to a FB argument yesterday with a guy that claimed it was more difficult to get the weapon used in the Orlando attack than it was to aquire anything used in Oklahoma City or on 9/11. Including a hijacked plane..........

(don't laugh it's honestly the first time I've ventured down the FB argument path and I'd like to throat punch people who normally do it)

 

[NorthDakota]

I got in to a FB argument yesterday with a guy that claimed it was more difficult to get the weapon used in the Orlando attack than it was to aquire anything used in Oklahoma City or on 9/11. Including a hijacked plane..........

(don't laugh it's honestly the first time I've ventured down the FB argument path and I'd like to throat punch people who normally do it)

Dont do it again.

 

[wizards8507]

I'm no gun control advocate, but I don't think anyone on a watch list should be allowed to purchase a firearm. I also think that, if they try to purchase one and are denied because they are on a watch list, the government should be required to disclose their presence on that list, and reasoning why they are there. Then the individual can fight their name being there, if there is a reasonable explanation that the government is unaware of.

Except that people on the watch list haven't been given a TRIAL. What you're suggesting is as big a violation of the Fifth Amendment as the Second.

"No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

It's a strange world we're living in when the liberals are the ones demanding a totalitarian state. Liberals used to like free speech and due process of law. As a matter of fact, the ACLU has filed lawsuits against the very idea of a No Fly List all together.

https://www.aclu.org/news/court-rules-no-fly-list-process-unconstitutional-and-must-be-reformed

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I got in to a FB argument yesterday with a guy that claimed it was more difficult to get the weapon used in the Orlando attack than it was to aquire anything used in Oklahoma City or on 9/11. Including a hijacked plane..........

(don't laugh it's honestly the first time I've ventured down the FB argument path and I'd like to throat punch people who normally do it)

Dont do it again.

Yea I did the FB argument thing once before. It was fun because I made the two guys I was arguing look like idiots, but at the same time, I realized how unbelievably uninformed some people are and it's pointless getting into debates with them on FB.

That's why I love this site. Generally, despite differences of opinion, most people are educated enough on their topics to have rational discussion. It's more thoughtful debate than pissing matches (most days).

 

[BobbyMac]

 

[NorthDakota]

Except that people on the watch list haven't been given a TRIAL. What you're suggesting is as big a violation of the Fifth Amendment as the Second.

"No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

It's a strange world we're living in when the liberals are the ones demanding a totalitarian state. Liberals used to like free speech and due process of law. As a matter of fact, the ACLU has filed lawsuits against the very idea of a No Fly List all together.

https://www.aclu.org/news/court-rules-no-fly-list-process-unconstitutional-and-must-be-reformed

Is it really though?

 

[ACamp1900]

Bill O'Reilly is a fucking idiot. He loves him some gun control.

The number of inner city kids with a father in the home is something like 20%. Broken families are not the way to build sustainable communities and responsible citizens.

Insanity, no one needs a man anymore. Continue digging your own hole with your completely out-dated, bigoted, hate filled, and completely logical statements.

 

[GoIrish41]

What is "fatherlessness in the inner cities, Alex"?

But I suspect you don't like that answer, either.

I don't disagree with the answer ... so why not stop locking up fathers for smoking weed and breaking up families, thereby making them fatherless. Why aren't we providing a legitimate path for young inner city youth to escape poverty -- like better educational opportunities, fairness in law enforcement and the legal system, jobs programs, healthcare, decent housing, and not demonizing people for the hole we have put them in through our own indifference? Because people of a particular side of the political isle don't want to do the things that could make a difference because they are "sick of paying for these bottom feeders" (paraphrasing).

Instead, they'd rather shift focus on a tiny fraction of the country, ignoring that the problem of violence isn't isolated in the hood. They want to double down on alienation and isolation of people of Arabic decent and Islamic faith, as if it is some new problem that we should fear most. It's not new. It's one thing to continuously bitch about a problem, its quite another to work to solve it. Isolation, denigration, bigotry, ignorance, apathy and pointing fingers isn't working. Maybe the politics of separation isn't the answer. Maybe inclusion is a better way forward. But you don't want to hear about anything like that. Muslims are evil and violent and dangerous and driven by Western hate... that's what you've got? Pass.

 

[phork]

You need to look up the word conflate. You are an ill informed child spreading unsolicited, self manufactured propaganda. Run along to your designated safe place.

So I'll add you to the list of people not participating in a great debate since you have brought zero substance to this thread.

It's also been 3.5 years since Sandy Hook....

So 330 is acceptable in your mind? Noted.

Did you read the page? It is legal for them to sell you a kit that you MUST MODIFY ILLEGALLY OF YOUR OWN VOLITION SO THAT YOU BECOME THE MANUFACTURER of the full auto weapon....thereby making it illegal. I'm not sure where the disconnect here is. You keep pushing the goal post of your 'feelings-based' opinion on this matter when presented with facts. I have no interest in debating an opinion like that since you did not arrive at it using logic and reason, and are by definition, unwilling to change it.

In summary: Already illegal so the correct course of action is enforcement.

And did you read the page? It takes 30 seconds and needle nose pliers to make it full auto. They even tell you how to do it. So while yes, technically their kit does not make it full auto they provide the avenue in which you can finish the race. Guns should be unmodifiable.

Someone bent on killing a large number of people isn't even going to think about a knife.

Happens in China regularly.

Knife-wielding attackers kill 29 at China train station - CNN.com
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

Do you think some nut job that is intent on killing a large number of people is worried about a law? They are going to modify the weapon regardless. The only people a law like this would affect would be the law abiding citizen that never even thought of modifying their weapon in the first place.

The point is to not make it readily available for them to do. Its bad enough you can buy a gun like an AR15 in under 10 minutes but then modify it to full auto in less than a minute.

He says:



But after 5 seconds of this...

He'd be wishing the perp had chosen this instead.

Not really. A crowd of people could subdue a knife wielding perp faster than a perp with a gun.

Do you care to elaborate on your idiotic point or are you just trolling and not contributing to the overall discussion.

They can't form proper thoughts so this is the drivel they throw out and think they've proven their point. I am all about intelligent debate and for the most part this has been faciniating. But then you get stuff like that, or the "you aren't American your opinion doesnt matter" hogwash.

Background checks already include criminal and mental health history, dishonorable military discharge, immigration status, pending criminal indictments and drug use/history. What additional checks can be added?

I don't know but I shouldn't be able to walk off the street and walk out of a gun shop with any gun in 7 minutes.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Except that people on the watch list haven't been given a TRIAL. What you're suggesting is as big a violation of the Fifth Amendment as the Second.

"No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

It's a strange world we're living in when the liberals are the ones demanding a totalitarian state. Liberals used to like free speech and due process of law. As a matter of fact, the ACLU has filed lawsuits against the very idea of a No Fly List all together.

https://www.aclu.org/news/court-rules-no-fly-list-process-unconstitutional-and-must-be-reformed

Create legislature that suspends firearm ownership until said trial has completed doesn't sound like a violation to me. It sounds like fair compromise. It takes ten minutes to buy a gun. All I'm saying is why can't there be a 4-week waiting period to allow for a legitimate psych eval, background check, and "trial" if needed for Watch Listers? If you make it through all the checks, great, here's your gun. If not, sorry, no soup for you.

 

[GoIrish41]

Except that people on the watch list haven't been given a TRIAL. What you're suggesting is as big a violation of the Fifth Amendment as the Second.

"No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

It's a strange world we're living in when the liberals are the ones demanding a totalitarian state. Liberals used to like free speech and due process of law. As a matter of fact, the ACLU has filed lawsuits against the very idea of a No Fly List all together.

https://www.aclu.org/news/court-rules-no-fly-list-process-unconstitutional-and-must-be-reformed

And neither are all the Muslims you are suggesting are all part of some evil plot to destroy Western civilization.

 

[NorthDakota]

Create legislature that suspends firearm ownership until said trial has completed doesn't sound like a violation to me. It sounds like fair compromise. It takes ten minutes to buy a gun. All I'm saying is why can't there be a 4-week waiting period to allow for a legitimate psych eval, background check, and "trial" if needed for Watch Listers? If you make it through all the checks, great, here's your gun. If not, sorry, no soup for you.

I don't think there ever is a trial....is there?

 

[Irish#1]

Coincidently, both of the mass shootings at the hands of Mulsims have happened since Trump -

I've always respected your opinion (regardless of how wrong you usually are. lol), but to lay this at the feet of Trump is silly. You can do better than that.

 

[wizards8507]

I don't disagree with the answer ... so why not stop locking up fathers for smoking weed and breaking up families, thereby making them fatherless.

This is a big myth on how these things are prosecuted in practice. I'll start by saying I agree with you that marijuana should be legal. I actually think all recreational drugs should be legal. However, nobody actually goes to prison for smoking a joint in their back yard. They go to prison because they're dealers or gang members but the cops can't prove it, so they use the posession laws as a lesser charge. It's cheaper and easier to prosecute.

Further, prison is a relatively small contributor to fatherlessness. Most of these kids are born to single mothers and the father is never in the picture. The image you want to portray of happy little families being broken up because dad smoked a joint at a barbecue is bullshit.

Why aren't we providing a legitimate path for young inner city youth to escape poverty -- like better educational opportunities, fairness in law enforcement and the legal system, jobs programs, healthcare, decent housing, and not demonizing people for the hole we have put them in through our own indifference?

Graduate high school, work, and get married before you have kids and you won't be poor. The Left has made marriage optional through the welfare state taking the role of provider and making fathers unnecessary. The Left is also working very hard to make sure that no inner city kid ever gets an entry-level job again through the Fight for 15. So the Left is actively making the problem worse and you want to lecture me about the Right's lack of solutions.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I don't think there ever is a trial....is there?

Investigation. Idk. Wizard wants a fair trial. I'm just giving in to that thought process and trying to find compromise. He wants to abide by the Constitution (which is important, I'm not suggesting otherwise), but I want to keep guns out of the hands of psychopaths and potential terrorists. Why our government can't find compromise is maddening.

 

[NorthDakota]

Investigation. Idk. Wizard wants a fair trial. I'm just giving in to that thought process and trying to find compromise. He wants to abide by the Constitution (which is important, I'm not suggesting otherwise), but I want to keep guns out of the hands of psychopaths and potential terrorists. Why our government can't find compromise is maddening.

I want a trial as well.

 

[wizards8507]

Create legislature that suspends firearm ownership until said trial has completed doesn't sound like a violation to me. It sounds like fair compromise. It takes ten minutes to buy a gun. All I'm saying is why can't there be a 4-week waiting period to allow for a legitimate psych eval, background check, and "trial" if needed for Watch Listers? If you make it through all the checks, great, here's your gun. If not, sorry, no soup for you.

Think of how expensive that is. I already laid out earlier in this thread that it would cost me $400 to get through the existing paperwork to purchase and transport a handgun in the state of Connecticut. Without passing a law banning firearms, they've effectively eliminated my second Amendment right. These fees are the legislative equivalent of poll taxes.

By the way, the NRA absolutely loves all these regulations, and they're dirty liars when they claim they don't. A big part of these fees are mandatory pistol training courses run by... the NRA. So yup, the NRA and the state of Connecticut are colluding to fuck over law-abiding citizens of Connecticut.

 

[GoIrish41]

I've always respected your opinion (regardless of how wrong you usually are. lol), but to lay this at the feet of Trump is silly. You can do better than that.

I'm not laying it at the feet of Trump. I'm saying that when people are more openly bigoted, anger is going to increase, and so are the instances in which people act on that anger. Its not Trump's fault. It's the fault of the people committing the crimes, but why push people to their boiling point? It makes no sense. Several posters in the political threads have talked about how they are encountering ignorant, racist people openly saying racist things to minorities is happening more frequently than they can remember it happening in the past.

 

[Irish#1]

Happens in China regularly.

Knife-wielding attackers kill 29 at China train station - CNN.com
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre





Not really. A crowd of people could subdue a knife wielding perp faster than a perp with a gun.

Kind of contradicting yourself there.

 

[GoIrish41]

This is a big myth on how these things are prosecuted in practice. I'll start by saying I agree with you that marijuana should be legal. I actually think all recreational drugs should be legal. However, nobody actually goes to prison for smoking a joint in their back yard. They go to prison because they're dealers or gang members but the cops can't prove it, so they use the posession laws as a lesser charge. It's cheaper and easier to prosecute.

Further, prison is a relatively small contributor to fatherlessness. Most of these kids are born to single mothers and the father is never in the picture. The image you want to portray of happy little families being broken up because dad smoked a joint at a barbecue is bullshit.


Graduate high school, work, and get married before you have kids and you won't be poor. The Left has made marriage optional through the welfare state taking the role of provider and making fathers unnecessary. The Left is also working very hard to make sure that no inner city kid ever gets an entry-level job again through the Fight for 15. So the Left is actively making the problem worse and you want to lecture me about the Right's lack of solutions.

Sometimes I read your posts and believe that you have never met a black person, certainly not one who grew up in the inner city, or an American Muslim. Your view of how things are in this country is clearly a sheltered one.

 

[wizards8507]

Sometimes I read your posts and believe that you have never met a black person, certainly not one who grew up in the inner city, or an American Muslim. Your view of how things are in this country is clearly a sheltered one.

My view of how things are in this country is based on principle and statistics. Principles and statistics don't change because "my black friend Steve is a kewl dude."

Also, I never brought up race. Not once.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Think of how expensive that is. I already laid out earlier in this thread that it would cost me $400 to get through the existing paperwork to purchase and transport a handgun in the state of Connecticut. Without passing a law banning firearms, they've effectively eliminated my second Amendment right. These fees are the legislative equivalent of poll taxes.

By the way, the NRA absolutely loves all these regulations, and they're dirty liars when they claim they don't. A big part of these fees are mandatory pistol training courses run by... the NRA. So yup, the NRA and the state of Connecticut are colluding to fuck over law-abiding citizens of Connecticut.

I don't care about how much it costs you to buy a gun. I care about the victims and their families. Truly. I don't have a problem with guns. I have a problem with how easily people who shouldn't have guns, get them.