Obamacare

Black Irish

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I just brought that up because of its significance; using deficit reduction to diminish debt. That is power. And if you remember Republicans and Democrats worked together on it, and a Democratic president held to his guns about a tax increase for the wealthiest among us.

I am so tired of the "newer generation of combative name calling Republicans" and "the liars at Fox News" hijacking the national economic conversation.

I just showed you how there is a difference between lowering taxes and mortgaging the future, and constructive financial policy.

I could use names like some of you do. I could call the people in parenthesis above pap smears or lying pussies, but what good would that do?

Here on this site we just had a man who probably has the highest income of any of us talk about how he is actually taking responsibility (like ACamp and Kissme outlined) and putting hundreds of thousands of his own dollars where his mouth is! Anybody who doesn't get it I don't know what it will take!

First off, can you give an example of a Fox News story that was blatantly and categorically false to back up calling them "liars."

Secondly, don't ask for a civil and non-partisan discourse when you proceed to basically accuse right-leaning and/or Republican people of being combative name callers who are apparently uninformed (they get all their news from the liars at Fox, remember).

Thirdly, "using deficit reduction to reduce debt" didn't keep the national debt from being over $1 trillion higher when Clinton left office. That reduction was more a one time confluence of events that gave Dems something to brag about for the next 15 years. It was helped along by creative accounting (remember what I mentioned about using Social Security tax revenue earlier?).
 

Bluto

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First off, can you give an example of a Fox News story that was blatantly and categorically false to back up calling them "liars."

During the Wisconsin protests that took place in February of last year Fox ran footage of "violent protesters" that showed people wearing t-shirts and with palm trees in the background as pointed out by Stephen Colbert

Fox news lies about Wisconsin protests - YouTube

Outfoxing Fox: Bill O'Reilly Caught Using Fake Video To Smear Wisconsin Protesters - YouTube
 
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ACamp1900

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Do me a favor and quickly google' (insert news corp name)caught lying' and you'll find many examples for every one.... There's a reason for that

Also many studies have been done and to my knowledge most find the same thing, but the famous Harvard study is the most damaging.... Fox is found to be biased... But to be the least biased of the bunch... Again just google search it...

Point is they are all full of **** but you're beating up fox because you disagree with their slant, just like those on the other side run to fox because they disagree with everyone else's slant... It doesn't make anyone right or wrong... Just be smart enough to shift through it all... What is weak though is everyone trying to downplay opposing opinions just because someone else watches fox or msnbc... or who the hell cares what else...

Also, just search for angry Wisconsin protesters and it'll bring up hundreds of interesting articles and vids.... Again slanted from both sides... The truth??? Whichever makes your side look better obviously... ;)


All and all.... It means absolutely nothing...... Like much of this thread



I swear I'm gonna just stop checking in...lol
 
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Bluto

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Hey don't kill the messenger. He asked for an example of a blatant lie from
Fox. Showing protesters in t-shirts and palm trees in the background and saying it's Wisconsin in the dead of winter is a great example of lying.

Anybow, I don't watch Fox or MSNBC. I don't think either do much "reporting".

Some publications I read regularly include The Economist, The Nation, The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal. I also listen to the BBC and NPR. The series Frontline is pretty great too. Call me old fashioned but I still read books as well. So there you have it.
 
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Bogtrotter07

Guest
How can you tell a politician is lying? His or her lips are moving. I didn't express that as a partisan statement.

Fox is different. This isn't about anyones point of view or politics.

In February 2003, a Florida Court of Appeals unanimously agreed with an assertion by FOX News that there is no rule against distorting or falsifying the news in the United States.

11. The Media Can Legally Lie | Project Censored

As a political consultant, Fox News President Roger Ailes specialized in dividing voters along racial, ethnic, and religious lines. While working for the George H.W. Bush campaign, he told a reporter, "The only question is whether we depict Willie Horton with a knife in his hand or without it," and produced the divisive "Revolving Door."

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2011/10/07/the-post-truth-network-turns-15/181675

What is the difference between a politician and a network news reporter? A politician knows when he is lying.

My general problem is with any US network news source. My specific problem is with anything owned worldwide by Rupert Murdock. I don't give a shiit about his politics, he is an absolutely corrupt human being, not my words, those of two major government bodies that have conduted inquiries.

Here is a little dated piece that catches my fancy. I remember I saw it when it first aired and thought it was the best expression of my incredulity of the liberty politicians take with my rights:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aFQFB5YpDZE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

First off, can you give an example of a Fox News story that was blatantly and categorically false to back up calling them "liars."

Secondly, don't ask for a civil and non-partisan discourse when you proceed to basically accuse right-leaning and/or Republican people of being combative name callers who are apparently uninformed (they get all their news from the liars at Fox, remember).

Thirdly, "using deficit reduction to reduce debt" didn't keep the national debt from being over $1 trillion higher when Clinton left office. That reduction was more a one time confluence of events that gave Dems something to brag about for the next 15 years. It was helped along by creative accounting (remember what I mentioned about using Social Security tax revenue earlier?).

One is taken care of; two is about specific members of the Republican Party, or the Tea Party that I will continue to refer to that was as it is objectively their defining characteristic. Three, I overstated my case. But once again, Clinton finished paying for Reagan policies, including S&L, (part 1) star wars, military build up, and the most drastic deficit spending ever. It passed right through the First Bush administration, (cause of death) right into the Clinton admin. If you want to say this was in part supported by a bunch of pussified Democrats that went along with a Republican President, I am fine with that. See my joke about politicians above.
 
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BobD

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Back in the day when there were three TV channels, it was enough just to report the news. Today with something like 500 channels, most have felt the need to add sensationalism.

A talking head in professional clothing and makeup with a teleprompter feeding them crap written by half-wits. Hey, the ingredients for politicians and reporters is very similiar.

Its not so much about the subject anymore, as it is about how to get you to watch it.
 
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ClausentoTate

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Also many studies have been done and to my knowledge most find the same thing, but the famous Harvard study is the most damaging.... Fox is found to be biased... But to be the least biased of the bunch... Again just google search it...

I have heard this study was done only between the hours of 12-4 or something like that. You know, when everyone watches.
 

RDU Irish

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During the Wisconsin protests that took place in February of last year Fox ran footage of "violent protesters" that showed people wearing t-shirts and with palm trees in the background as pointed out by Stephen Colbert

Fox news lies about Wisconsin protests - YouTube

Outfoxing Fox: Bill O'Reilly Caught Using Fake Video To Smear Wisconsin Protesters - YouTube

This is funny because there was plenty of real footage plenty damning of the protesters (many of whom were from Illinois) if they wouldn't have been too lazy to call up their Wisconsin affiliates.

Lots of money spent cleaning up Madison. One acquaintance reporter for a Milwaukee staion commented on how bad the capital building smelled after the protesters had been there for a few days. Freaking disgusting. Not aware of the evil Tea Party rallies ever leaving a mark like that. Anyone I have talked to says the people are civil and leave the location cleaner than when they got there. Just sayin'.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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This has degenerated into a low power name calling match. Bring it back up Fox cannot broadcast news in Canada, why? It is true about Fox; they have a hidden agenda above all others. The others are just inane. About truth in the media; 50 years ago, everybody knew the truth about Jack Kennedy, and everyone refused to report it. So most of this conversation is irrelevant. People lie. What I was trying to speak against, was not one member of Irish Envy, but against that vocal minority of politicians and media, that have almost crushed any semblance of a national debate, not a name calling match, which is what we have, (see, this site mirrored it.)

We just have little time to get past what we are bogged down in. And the same old status quo that has been working for centuries to keep us bogged down is drowning us all. It is time to realize we are all in this together, mend a few fences, and make it a win-win for as many as we can. We have to remember what binds us all together, rather than what separates us; survival.

I also would like to apologize for my error yesterday. I spoke in a way which made my words when interpreted by any person, made it sound like during the Clinton Administration the national debt was lower after they left office, that when they entered. That is not true, the idea is preposterous. Not as preposterous as much of what was floated, but something that embarrasses me deeply. I am sorry.
 

Bluto

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This is funny because there was plenty of real footage plenty damning of the protesters (many of whom were from Illinois) if they wouldn't have been too lazy to call up their Wisconsin affiliates.

Lots of money spent cleaning up Madison. One acquaintance reporter for a Milwaukee staion commented on how bad the capital building smelled after the protesters had been there for a few days. Freaking disgusting. Not aware of the evil Tea Party rallies ever leaving a mark like that. Anyone I have talked to says the people are civil and leave the location cleaner than when they got there. Just sayin'.

Fair enough. The Occupy protesters left a bunch of trash in Ernie Smith plaza in Oakland as well. So the question to then ask is why did Fox decide to go with the footage they did? I doubt it was a case of them being lazy. It is pretty clear to me that Fox is focused on presenting a specific line of propaganda. A big part of this is the channel engaging in ad hominem attacks in an attempt to discredit others and or to reinforce the message they are trying to present. I think that is the issue as Bogtrooter has pointed out.

Now if one wants to talk about Tea Party rallies I have seen plenty footage of racists b.s, usually directed at the current President at those. So in conclusion based on our in-depth analysis the left is a bunch of trashy commies and the right a bunch of fear mongering racists.
 

NankerPhelge

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This comes from the evil, biased, lying Fox News. But, it is written by Judge Napolitano, a former New Jersey Superior Court judge, and a Notre Dame graduate. Oh, the torture of finding one of your own blindly hammering away as a paid propagandist for a nut-ball, right-wing conspiratorial organization. Anyway, here is what our Notre Dame educated brother has to say (probably has just had his mind warped by Fox News):

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street, If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat.
If you get too cold, I'll tax the heat,
If you take a walk, I’ll tax your feet.
-- The Beatles in “The Taxman”

Of the 17 lawyers who have served as chief justice of the United States, John Marshall -- the fourth chief justice -- has come to be known as the "Great Chief Justice." The folks who have given him that title are the progressives who have largely written the history we are taught in government schools. They revere him because he is the intellectual progenitor of federal power. Marshall's opinions over a 34-year period during the nation's infancy -- expanding federal power at the expense of personal freedom and the sovereignty of the states -- set a pattern for federal control of our lives and actually invited Congress to regulate areas of human behavior nowhere mentioned in the Constitution. He was Thomas Jefferson’s cousin, but they rarely spoke. No chief justice in history has so pronouncedly and creatively offered the feds power on a platter as he.

Now he has a rival.

No one can know the true motivations for the idiosyncratic rationale in the health care decision written by Marshall's current successor, John Roberts. Often five member majorities on the court are fragile, and bizarre compromises are necessary in order to keep a five-member majority from becoming a four-member minority. Perhaps Chief Justice Roberts really means what he wrote -- that congressional power to tax is without constitutional limit -- and his opinion is a faithful reflection of that view, without a political or legal or intra-court agenda. But that view finds no support in the Constitution or our history. It even contradicts the most famous of Marshall's big government aphorisms: The power to tax is the power to destroy.

The reasoning underlying the 5 to 4 majority opinion is the court’s unprecedented pronouncement that Congress' power to tax is unlimited. The majority held that the extraction of thousands of dollars per year by the IRS from individuals who do not have health insurance is not a fine, not a punishment, not a payment for government-provided health insurance, not a shared responsibility -- all of which the statute says it is -- but rather is an inducement in the form of a tax. The majority likened this tax to the federal taxes on tobacco and gasoline, which, it held, are imposed not only to generate revenue but also to discourage smoking and driving. The statute is more than 2,400 pages in length, and it establishes the federal micromanagement of about 16 percent of the national economy. And the court justified it constitutionally by calling it a tax.

A 7 to 2 majority (which excluded two of the progressive justices who joined the chief in rewriting tax law and included the four dissenting justices who would have invalidated the entire statute as beyond the constitutional power of Congress) held that while Congress can regulate commerce, it cannot compel one to engage in commerce. The same majority ruled that Congress cannot force the states to expand Medicaid by establishing state insurance exchanges. It held that the congressional command to establish the exchanges combined with the congressional threat to withhold all Medicaid funds -- not just those involved with the exchanges -- for failure to establish them would be so harmful to the financial stability of state governments as to be tantamount to an assault on state sovereignty. This leaves the exchanges in limbo, and it is the first judicial recognition that state sovereignty is apparently at the tender mercies of the financial largesse of Congress.

The logic in the majority opinion is the jurisprudential equivalent of passing a camel through the eye of a needle. The logic is so tortured, unexpected and unprecedented that even the law's most fervent supporters did not make or anticipate the court's argument in its support. Under the Constitution, a tax must originate in the House (which this law did not), and it must be applied for doing something (like earning income or purchasing tobacco or fuel), not for doing nothing. In all the history of the court, it never has held that a penalty imposed for violating a federal law was really a tax. And it never has converted linguistically the congressional finding of penalty into the judicial declaration of tax, absent finding subterfuge on the part of congressional draftsmanship.

I wonder whether the chief justice realizes what he and the progressive wing of the court have done to our freedom. If the feds can tax us for not doing as they have commanded, and if that which is commanded need not be grounded in the Constitution, then there is no constitutional limit to their power, and the ruling that the power to regulate commerce does not encompass the power to compel commerce is mere sophistry.

Even The Beatles understood this.


Read more: A vast new federal power | Fox News
 
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Bogtrotter07

Guest
This comes from the evil, biased, lying Fox News. But, it is written by Judge Napolitano, a former New Jersey Superior Court judge, and a Notre Dame graduate. Oh, the torture of finding one of your own blindly hammering away as a paid propagandist for a nut-ball, right-wing conspiratorial organization. Anyway, here is what our Notre Dame educated brother has to say (probably has just had his mind warped by Fox News):

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street, If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat.
If you get too cold, I'll tax the heat,
If you take a walk, I’ll tax your feet.
-- The Beatles in “The Taxman”

Of the 17 lawyers who have served as chief justice of the United States, John Marshall -- the fourth chief justice -- has come to be known as the "Great Chief Justice." The folks who have given him that title are the progressives who have largely written the history we are taught in government schools. They revere him because he is the intellectual progenitor of federal power. Marshall's opinions over a 34-year period during the nation's infancy -- expanding federal power at the expense of personal freedom and the sovereignty of the states -- set a pattern for federal control of our lives and actually invited Congress to regulate areas of human behavior nowhere mentioned in the Constitution. He was Thomas Jefferson’s cousin, but they rarely spoke. No chief justice in history has so pronouncedly and creatively offered the feds power on a platter as he.

Now he has a rival.

No one can know the true motivations for the idiosyncratic rationale in the health care decision written by Marshall's current successor, John Roberts. Often five member majorities on the court are fragile, and bizarre compromises are necessary in order to keep a five-member majority from becoming a four-member minority. Perhaps Chief Justice Roberts really means what he wrote -- that congressional power to tax is without constitutional limit -- and his opinion is a faithful reflection of that view, without a political or legal or intra-court agenda. But that view finds no support in the Constitution or our history. It even contradicts the most famous of Marshall's big government aphorisms: The power to tax is the power to destroy.

The reasoning underlying the 5 to 4 majority opinion is the court’s unprecedented pronouncement that Congress' power to tax is unlimited. The majority held that the extraction of thousands of dollars per year by the IRS from individuals who do not have health insurance is not a fine, not a punishment, not a payment for government-provided health insurance, not a shared responsibility -- all of which the statute says it is -- but rather is an inducement in the form of a tax. The majority likened this tax to the federal taxes on tobacco and gasoline, which, it held, are imposed not only to generate revenue but also to discourage smoking and driving. The statute is more than 2,400 pages in length, and it establishes the federal micromanagement of about 16 percent of the national economy. And the court justified it constitutionally by calling it a tax.

A 7 to 2 majority (which excluded two of the progressive justices who joined the chief in rewriting tax law and included the four dissenting justices who would have invalidated the entire statute as beyond the constitutional power of Congress) held that while Congress can regulate commerce, it cannot compel one to engage in commerce. The same majority ruled that Congress cannot force the states to expand Medicaid by establishing state insurance exchanges. It held that the congressional command to establish the exchanges combined with the congressional threat to withhold all Medicaid funds -- not just those involved with the exchanges -- for failure to establish them would be so harmful to the financial stability of state governments as to be tantamount to an assault on state sovereignty. This leaves the exchanges in limbo, and it is the first judicial recognition that state sovereignty is apparently at the tender mercies of the financial largesse of Congress.

The logic in the majority opinion is the jurisprudential equivalent of passing a camel through the eye of a needle. The logic is so tortured, unexpected and unprecedented that even the law's most fervent supporters did not make or anticipate the court's argument in its support. Under the Constitution, a tax must originate in the House (which this law did not), and it must be applied for doing something (like earning income or purchasing tobacco or fuel), not for doing nothing. In all the history of the court, it never has held that a penalty imposed for violating a federal law was really a tax. And it never has converted linguistically the congressional finding of penalty into the judicial declaration of tax, absent finding subterfuge on the part of congressional draftsmanship.

I wonder whether the chief justice realizes what he and the progressive wing of the court have done to our freedom. If the feds can tax us for not doing as they have commanded, and if that which is commanded need not be grounded in the Constitution, then there is no constitutional limit to their power, and the ruling that the power to regulate commerce does not encompass the power to compel commerce is mere sophistry.

Even The Beatles understood this.


Read more: A vast new federal power | Fox News

He really doesn't understand the biblical analogy or parable does he?
 

jakerbluegold

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I've got news for everybody here. I work in the Cardiac Cath Lab, in a hospital. We already pay for those without health insurance, and have for a long time. When someone comes into the ER in dire straits, they aren't turned away. This is even when they aren't physically ill, but are in turn a drug seeking free-rider. I've personally worked on hundreds of people without health insurance THAT WOULD HAVE OTHERWISE DIED!

Now don't get me wrong, I don't believe this plan is perfect, in fact, it's far from it. I do believe that everyone deserves affordable health care though, especially when it come to children.

The fact that 9.8% of children in our country under the age of 18 are without insurance is unacceptable. This is even after government programs built to aid these people. And yes, I have a link.
Number of people without health insurance in U.S. climbs - Sep. 13, 2011
 

Black Irish

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I probably shouldn't respond because I got some good news today and have been getting sloshed in a celebratory manner. But here goes.

I plan to look at the evidence offered that Fox News is "Lying.: I have always accepted that Fox has a right-leaning slant on their news coverage, just as other networks have a left-leaning slant. That doesn't mean they are wrong ( and even if you lie sometimes that doesn't mean you are always wrong). Fox ain't perfect, and I never thought they were, but are they any worse than any other infotainment news channel?

-Please stop posting footage of Jon Stewart. He's a disingenuous clown who cherry picks and happens to be right sometimes but runs from a real fight when it isn't on his terms.

-I don't think the real problem is Fox News versus MSNBC or Democrat versus GOP it is really us. We can complain about dishonest politicians all we want but the real problem is working and middle class citizens who will not budge off their "rights" (e.g. Social Security checks, mortgage deductions) for the greater good. We are cynical, selfish, and have an entitlement complex, both liberal and conservative. Stop expecting the government to do everything for you and start doing for yourself and each other. That's why I give to charity and volunteer, because I believe that charitably-minded citizens can do more good than a behemoth federal government that is sucking us dry to give us stuff to keep us fat, dumb, and happy.

Happy 4th and remember that liberty is a responsibility, not a right.
 

Rizzophil

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-I don't think the real problem is Fox News versus MSNBC or Democrat versus GOP it is really us. We can complain about dishonest politicians all we want but the real problem is working and middle class citizens who will not budge off their "rights" (e.g. Social Security checks, mortgage deductions) for the greater good. We are cynical, selfish, and have an entitlement complex, both liberal and conservative. Stop expecting the government to do everything for you and start doing for yourself and each other. That's why I give to charity and volunteer, because I believe that charitably-minded citizens can do more good than a behemoth federal government that is sucking us dry to give us stuff to keep us fat, dumb, and happy.

Happy 4th and remember that liberty is a responsibility, not a right.

I think this is the best post of the whole thread. We have seen the enemy...and it is us.
 

phgreek

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Well, the door has been slammed open... I just can't wait for all the 'evil' and 'hilter' attacks coming from the left when a conservative gov. one day uses this 'tax' garbage as a means to force upon the whole of the American people a strictly right wing ideology...

I'm not saying I support anything, but I'll be expecting much more talk of succession coming from certain state legislatures...

...me too. to the specific topic at hand...the tax issue, and its impact on Where people live is going to be an issue. States rejecting additional funding, I believe forces people to leave...not a fan of impacting populations/demographics with a "policy"...this is setting up for a political and physical divide that leads to the very issues you reference...not good.
 
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Bogtrotter07

Guest
I probably shouldn't respond because I got some good news today and have been getting sloshed in a celebratory manner. But here goes.

I plan to look at the evidence offered that Fox News is "Lying.: I have always accepted that Fox has a right-leaning slant on their news coverage, just as other networks have a left-leaning slant. That doesn't mean they are wrong ( and even if you lie sometimes that doesn't mean you are always wrong). Fox ain't perfect, and I never thought they were, but are they any worse than any other infotainment news channel?

-Please stop posting footage of Jon Stewart. He's a disingenuous clown who cherry picks and happens to be right sometimes but runs from a real fight when it isn't on his terms.

-I don't think the real problem is Fox News versus MSNBC or Democrat versus GOP it is really us. We can complain about dishonest politicians all we want but the real problem is working and middle class citizens who will not budge off their "rights" (e.g. Social Security checks, mortgage deductions) for the greater good. We are cynical, selfish, and have an entitlement complex, both liberal and conservative. Stop expecting the government to do everything for you and start doing for yourself and each other. That's why I give to charity and volunteer, because I believe that charitably-minded citizens can do more good than a behemoth federal government that is sucking us dry to give us stuff to keep us fat, dumb, and happy.

Happy 4th and remember that liberty is a responsibility, not a right

I wasn't going to respond to this thread but it's the Fourth of July, midweek, and you dropped this post, so what the hell!

I am pretty sure liberty is a right.

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —
"

Yup, it is one of three "certain unalienable Rights"; right between Life and the pursuit of Happiness. So it isn't a duty; that was a little cliché popularized by the Tea Party.

You see this is one of my most serious problems with the Tea Party and other numb-minded individuals that want to blather such hogwash. What that neat little cliché becomes is an instrument for judgment. Right, so if this group isn't expressing their liberty "correctly," we can point out the errors of their ways. In other words it is a racist’s best tool in perpetrating the wrongs of negative stereotypes on a group, while remaining dignified in their self-righteous false patriotism.

I have had African-Americans, Hispanics, Asiatic, and Caucasians give their lives so I might live; there is no difference. There is only difference in perception.

You go on with the problem isn't Fox versus msNBC, ad nauseum; then you interject, " -Please stop posting footage of Jon Stewart. He's a disingenuous clown who cherry picks . . .

You have just invalidated your entire post; you have exposed the core of your hypocricy, and that of the whole conservative and Tea party movement. That someone like Jon Stewart can invalidate your call to accept everyone for who they are. That is some mojo! And you should think twice about making conciliatory statements if you can't accept a half-Jewish, half-Catholic comedian from Jersey.

The call to responsibility, judgement of which of these people are at fault, and how we must all be more responsible and not rely on the government, has echoed off the walls of many an anal cavity, muffled and resplendent in its "head up the @ss illogic." The whole point of government is so we have something to depend on to allow us to pursue our unalienable rights. Do you think I want to have to landmine my yard and set up armed watch at night? He11 no! I am more than willing to depend on the local police. They do a fine job. Taking it one step further, tell your stories to the Tennessee family who didn't have the cash to pay their tax surcharge, so the fire department watched as their house burned down, and sprayed water on the neighbors wood pile to insure it didn't burn.

Tips for future intelligent conversation:

Your ideology is always on display when you say "Democrat" versus "Democratic" as in "GOP versus the Democratic Party."

Some of us don't label ourselves; but you do. That kind of sets the tone of the post, and really limits the possible outcomes.

Most people don't look at these issues in such simple or black and white terms: "That's why I give to charity and volunteer, because I believe that charitably-minded citizens can do more good than a behemoth federal government that is sucking us dry to give us stuff to keep us fat, dumb, and happy." What you see as a negative, most people I know see as one of the most wonderful attributes of our democracy, (maintained responsibly). And our Federal government can be the engine. We have the ability, if we accept it, of making the world a better place and raising up whole peoples, to assist their pursuit of these certain unalienable Rights.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Irish
-I don't think the real problem is Fox News versus MSNBC or Democrat versus GOP it is really us. We can complain about dishonest politicians all we want but the real problem is working and middle class citizens who will not budge off their "rights" (e.g. Social Security checks, mortgage deductions) for the greater good. We are cynical, selfish, and have an entitlement complex, both liberal and conservative. Stop expecting the government to do everything for you and start doing for yourself and each other. That's why I give to charity and volunteer, because I believe that charitably-minded citizens can do more good than a behemoth federal government that is sucking us dry to give us stuff to keep us fat, dumb, and happy.

Happy 4th and remember that liberty is a responsibility, not a right.
I think this is the best post of the whole thread. We have seen the enemy...and it is us.

I bet you do.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Happy Fourth of July.
 
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RDU Irish

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I did not realize the Judge was an ND grad. Him and Stossel are beat up frequently (Stossel more than Judge N) by the conservative COMMENTATORS on Fox for their Libertarian views. Hannity and O'Reilly can't comprehend that right wing social engineering is just as dangerous as left wing social engineering. More and more I find myself leaning Libertarian and I appreciate that Fox at least gives air time to these guys. Stossel may overdo the Socratic method but he does make great points.



I submit the following chicken versus egg conundrum: in the good ole days families and communities were more responsible for their young, old and infirm. Before the days of Social Security and Medicare people and communities worked together and were more tightly knit than today. Why have we moved largely away from this? Life expectancy continues to grow thus increasing the elderly population. Welfare and Social Security (including SSDI) make it easier to say it is someone elses problem rather than help your neighbor or family member.

So do government programs create this societal change or do they spring up in response to the societal change?
 

ND NYC

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All this back and forth banter reminds me of the sign one of the Tea Party guys was holding up during the summer that Obamacare was being discussed at all the town halls, it read:

"Keep your Socialist hands off my Medicare"

pretty much tells us all we need to know about an "informed electorate"
 

connor_in

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This comes from the evil, biased, lying Fox News. But, it is written by Judge Napolitano, a former New Jersey Superior Court judge, and a Notre Dame graduate. Oh, the torture of finding one of your own blindly hammering away as a paid propagandist for a nut-ball, right-wing conspiratorial organization. Anyway, here is what our Notre Dame educated brother has to say (probably has just had his mind warped by Fox News):

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street, If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat.
If you get too cold, I'll tax the heat,
If you take a walk, I’ll tax your feet.
-- The Beatles in “The Taxman”

Of the 17 lawyers who have served as chief justice of the United States, John Marshall -- the fourth chief justice -- has come to be known as the "Great Chief Justice." The folks who have given him that title are the progressives who have largely written the history we are taught in government schools. They revere him because he is the intellectual progenitor of federal power. Marshall's opinions over a 34-year period during the nation's infancy -- expanding federal power at the expense of personal freedom and the sovereignty of the states -- set a pattern for federal control of our lives and actually invited Congress to regulate areas of human behavior nowhere mentioned in the Constitution. He was Thomas Jefferson’s cousin, but they rarely spoke. No chief justice in history has so pronouncedly and creatively offered the feds power on a platter as he.

Now he has a rival.

No one can know the true motivations for the idiosyncratic rationale in the health care decision written by Marshall's current successor, John Roberts. Often five member majorities on the court are fragile, and bizarre compromises are necessary in order to keep a five-member majority from becoming a four-member minority. Perhaps Chief Justice Roberts really means what he wrote -- that congressional power to tax is without constitutional limit -- and his opinion is a faithful reflection of that view, without a political or legal or intra-court agenda. But that view finds no support in the Constitution or our history. It even contradicts the most famous of Marshall's big government aphorisms: The power to tax is the power to destroy.

The reasoning underlying the 5 to 4 majority opinion is the court’s unprecedented pronouncement that Congress' power to tax is unlimited. The majority held that the extraction of thousands of dollars per year by the IRS from individuals who do not have health insurance is not a fine, not a punishment, not a payment for government-provided health insurance, not a shared responsibility -- all of which the statute says it is -- but rather is an inducement in the form of a tax. The majority likened this tax to the federal taxes on tobacco and gasoline, which, it held, are imposed not only to generate revenue but also to discourage smoking and driving. The statute is more than 2,400 pages in length, and it establishes the federal micromanagement of about 16 percent of the national economy. And the court justified it constitutionally by calling it a tax.

A 7 to 2 majority (which excluded two of the progressive justices who joined the chief in rewriting tax law and included the four dissenting justices who would have invalidated the entire statute as beyond the constitutional power of Congress) held that while Congress can regulate commerce, it cannot compel one to engage in commerce. The same majority ruled that Congress cannot force the states to expand Medicaid by establishing state insurance exchanges. It held that the congressional command to establish the exchanges combined with the congressional threat to withhold all Medicaid funds -- not just those involved with the exchanges -- for failure to establish them would be so harmful to the financial stability of state governments as to be tantamount to an assault on state sovereignty. This leaves the exchanges in limbo, and it is the first judicial recognition that state sovereignty is apparently at the tender mercies of the financial largesse of Congress.

The logic in the majority opinion is the jurisprudential equivalent of passing a camel through the eye of a needle. The logic is so tortured, unexpected and unprecedented that even the law's most fervent supporters did not make or anticipate the court's argument in its support. Under the Constitution, a tax must originate in the House (which this law did not), and it must be applied for doing something (like earning income or purchasing tobacco or fuel), not for doing nothing. In all the history of the court, it never has held that a penalty imposed for violating a federal law was really a tax. And it never has converted linguistically the congressional finding of penalty into the judicial declaration of tax, absent finding subterfuge on the part of congressional draftsmanship.

I wonder whether the chief justice realizes what he and the progressive wing of the court have done to our freedom. If the feds can tax us for not doing as they have commanded, and if that which is commanded need not be grounded in the Constitution, then there is no constitutional limit to their power, and the ruling that the power to regulate commerce does not encompass the power to compel commerce is mere sophistry.

Even The Beatles understood this.


Read more: A vast new federal power | Fox News

One quick question...did Chief Justice Roberts invalidate the entire case based on the point that a tax cannot be ajudicated until such time that it is actively in force and levied? This is a point of contention I have heard brought up and why the side arguing against the mandate basically stipulated to the fact that the mandate did not constitute a tax. If it was a tax then their entire case went away as we need to wait to 2014 when the taxes go into effect before a case brought and judgement rendered.

Also, if the answer is that it is not invalidated, because the ruling is what determined it was a tax, not the case itself, THEN does that mean once the taxes go into effect in 2014, it could technically be brought up again but argued on its tax basis? I ask this because it was my understanding (and I could be way wrong as the body of the opinions are not the easiest thing to digest for an economics guy) that the four who joined Roberts in declaring ACA contitutional found it met the commerce clause standard and disagreed with Roberts on the tax, whereas the four who found against the mandate also did so under the commerce clause. I thought this was the basis of those who were upset that ACA stood, were trying to find a silver lining by saying that the court had a majority that agreed in the limitation of the commerce clause, thus restraining Congress somewhat as they seem to claim time and again power unto themselves using unlimited application of the commerce clause.

This is not a D vs R post...but a pure and simple question on the haziness of what exactly came out of this
 

ND NYC

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aint it great how we have so many supreme court and constitutional scholars all of sudden in this country?
 

phgreek

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I submit the following chicken versus egg conundrum: in the good ole days families and communities were more responsible for their young, old and infirm. Before the days of Social Security and Medicare people and communities worked together and were more tightly knit than today. Why have we moved largely away from this? Life expectancy continues to grow thus increasing the elderly population. Welfare and Social Security (including SSDI) make it easier to say it is someone elses problem rather than help your neighbor or family member.

So do government programs create this societal change or do they spring up in response to the societal change?

I have been cogitating on this very issue off and on for some time now. Obviously familial or community "care" has been replaced...but you still see the instinct when the economy tanks...but for the most part we are a " Gov. take care of me" society. Did we cause that by our very nature, or did these programs make our instincts to aid vestigaes of what they once were...I think its our nature. Most people fight their greedy, covetous, and fearful nature all day, every day.

LOOOONG before anyone would take liberty for granted and look for government to do more, there were those who warned against providing such aid. So I think even in the formative days of this nation our nature was known, and its potential impact understood. Even when shown examples of failure, and when warned by those who were willing to die for the formation of this nation, we persisted, and still do today. What you call societal change is greed, avarice, and fear in policy. Its us. All that was required is the role of pandering politician, and here we are!

I still contend those who fought and died for the formation of this Nation would be none too pleased with where we've taken it...much of their soreness would be related to the expansion of the federal government, and its failure to do the basic things they established it to do. As I said, some even spoke of the entitlement issue albeit not by that name. They hoped we'd understand their words, and always value liberty over all else. We don't.
 

NDFan4Life

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Sorry for bringing up a dead thread, but I need to vent.

My Mom had a stroke a few months ago. She's been in a healthcare facility in Illinois for therapy, but is very unhappy. My wife and I talked her into coming to live with us until she's able to get back out on her own. My wife's contacted over 25 doctors in our area to set her up with a primary physician. Every single one of them are not willing to take on a new patient on Medicare. Some of the doctors said that they haven't been getting paid from Medicare. I have no idea why, and am becoming extremely frustrated. I don't want to go tell my Mom that we can't bring her out here. That would just crush her. I'm at my wit's end here. We're continuing to call doctors, but things are not looking good. Does anyone have any suggestions on what we can do? Any assistance is greatly appreciated.
 

phgreek

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Sorry for bringing up a dead thread, but I need to vent.

My Mom had a stroke a few months ago. She's been in a healthcare facility in Illinois for therapy, but is very unhappy. My wife and I talked her into coming to live with us until she's able to get back out on her own. My wife's contacted over 25 doctors in our area to set her up with a primary physician. Every single one of them are not willing to take on a new patient on Medicare. Some of the doctors said that they haven't been getting paid from Medicare. I have no idea why, and am becoming extremely frustrated. I don't want to go tell my Mom that we can't bring her out here. That would just crush her. I'm at my wit's end here. We're continuing to call doctors, but things are not looking good. Does anyone have any suggestions on what we can do? Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

sorry to hear about this. Look in local papers and such for new Dr.s announcing their practice...they are your best bet because they are neither cynical about medicare, nor "booked". That is all I got...I wish I could help you with something better
 

NDFan4Life

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sorry to hear about this. Look in local papers and such for new Dr.s announcing their practice...they are your best bet because they are neither cynical about medicare, nor "booked". That is all I got...I wish I could help you with something better

Thanks for the suggestion. We'll try that.

This is just so wrong. My Mom's paid into Medicare all of her working life, and this is how she's treated? It's so unfair.
 

phgreek

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Thanks for the suggestion. We'll try that.

This is just so wrong. My Mom's paid into Medicare all of her working life, and this is how she's treated? It's so unfair.


BTW...See if you can find your Mom a new internal medicine DR. GPs are NOT the same animal they were 20-30 years ago...take what you can get but keep looking for internal medicine doc. WAY better outcome for your mom I think.

And yea, this totally sucks your mom did her part and bought INSURANCE...and can't use the benefit...WHY is That?
 

NDFan4Life

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BTW...See if you can find your Mom a new internal medicine DR. GPs are NOT the same animal they were 20-30 years ago...take what you can get but keep looking for internal medicine doc. WAY better outcome for your mom I think.

And yea, this totally sucks your mom did her part and bought INSURANCE...and can't use the benefit...WHY is That?

I talked to my wife a few mintues ago, and she said we may have a chance with one doctor here. The problem is that they want an entire list of medications my Mom's on. It'll be next to impossible to get that because of privacy concerns. I suppose we could call and ask her, but she's 77 and the stroke did quite a number on her memory.

I'm not blaming this entirely on Obamacare, but all of the politicians say they care about the seniors. Nothing but lip service, IMO.
 

phgreek

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I talked to my wife a few mintues ago, and she said we may have a chance with one doctor here. The problem is that they want an entire list of medications my Mom's on. It'll be next to impossible to get that because of privacy concerns. I suppose we could call and ask her, but she's 77 and the stroke did quite a number on her memory.

I'm not blaming this entirely on Obamacare, but all of the politicians say they care about the seniors. Nothing but lip service, IMO.

obamacare is a knee jerk to what was already happening...agreed. Medicare was impacted by years of "changing" through political pandering and government operational mismanagement...even fraud.

Sometimes lists are available if she was in a private system, and used it exclusively. Paper to get you access can happen pretty quickly I think...can she sign something? Next best thing is to describe all the conditions for which she was taking medicine...maybe they'll take that for starters???
 
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