ND's Talking Heads ... The good, bad & ugly

[IrishTusker]

Nobody that is a decision maker cares, at all, who the better team was, or who deserved it more. The ACC was getting a team in due to their partnership with ESPN and as soon as Virgnia lost, Miami's same record and head-to-head win ensured they'd get in and the SEC's power, combined with the media darling that is Alabama, ensured they would get in.

There is nothing "just" or "fair" in big busines. It's simply about power and relationships. ND get the short end of that stick this year and the media know it, so the sane ones aren't going to sit around a gripe about inclusion metrics, when they know that ND wasn't left out on the basis of critical analysis between teams.

Right, it's all about money. So get rid of the committee and we can rank the teams more fairly.

 

[notredomer23]

I just wanna add to this thread that irishillustrated trolling their customers essentially by publishing pieces such as “10 best Notre Dame pop culture references” “10 best Shameock Series jerseys” “10 best Notre Dame stadium concession items” all the while ignoring their subscribers was the final straw for me to cancel. I get it. There’s a gag order on information. Don’t insult us with this BS in the middle of what has been a bad portal season so far. At least save it for February when nothing is going on.

 

[IrishInOntario]

This is just another way of saying the teams are put in the playoff for financial reasons, rather than reasons of quality. And I think that's pretty obviously true, especially this year. The question is whether that is good, or not. I don't think ND should accept being screwed because it isn't in a conference. Neither Miami, nor Ole Miss, nor Oregon won their conference. OSU didn't win their conference last year. Any program is allowed to be independent; it's not like Congress forbade independence but included an exception for ND. And so ND certainly shouldn't be penalized for being independent. If the committee can't rank ND fairly because it is independent (as happened this year) then get rid of the committee.

We can argue what's "good" and "bad" and "fair" until we're blue in the face, but it has little overall impact on the criteria for selection. It's driven by financial considerations, relationships and group dynamics... For the fans, the competition element is paramount. For the decision makers, that's nearly an irrelevant consideration.

 

[GoldenAura]

Used to like Sampson a lot but his smugness/snarkiness at the fan base of the one team he covers has gone so over the top it’s crossed a line where it seems like looks down on us all.

Guy can’t do his job and get a morsel of portal intel but he’s great at kicking us in the balls on twitter

Same. I used to like Sampson years ago, but he’s insufferable now. Probably spent too much time with Fortuna (and keeping him as a podcast co-host is just a further indictment of Pete).

 

[IrishInOntario]

Right, it's all about money. So get rid of the committee and we can rank the teams more fairly.

I'd be fine with that... More importantly though, I think Freeman is correct to simply focus on what he can control. Win 11 games, or better each year, and you largely take the choice out of the hands of whoever deciding, because they have to keep up the facade that records matter... Otherwise is might alienate the fan base and hurt their bottom line.

 

[arrowryan]

I just wanna add to this thread that irishillustrated trolling their customers essentially by publishing pieces such as “10 best Notre Dame pop culture references” “10 best Shameock Series jerseys” “10 best Notre Dame stadium concession items” all the while ignoring their subscribers was the final straw for me to cancel. I get it. There’s a gag order on information. Don’t insult us with this BS in the middle of what has been a bad portal season so far. At least save it for February when nothing is going on.

I saw that yesterday. Absolutely pathetic

 

[tirishman505]

This will be an unpopular take here, because I know Sampson is widely despised by the fanatics, but I think his overall take is pretty reasonable... He just, notoriously, delivers it in the most boring, milk toast way, that is completely unappealing to the emotionally charged segment of the fan base.

That opinion goes something like this...

"Notre Dame had only itself to blame for missing the playoffs, because they opened the season with back-to-back losses. A 12-0 or 11-1 Notre Dame is in every year time, but that second loss leaves Notre Dame vulnerable, without both confetence and ESPN backing, to fight for them in the committee room and through back channel pressure. This year it was made worse by the fact that the two teams Notre Dame was in competition with for the last spot were a team (Miami) carrying to flag of an ESPN conference, with the same record and a head-to-head win and an SEC darling (Alabama) living off the memory of Nick Saban and bolstered by ESPN investment in the SEC.

If Notre Dame doesn't want to join a conference and "play ball" with the rest of the sport, that's fine, but they then SHOULD expect to be the team that gets the short end of the stick when they don't control the controllables (ensuring they go 11-1 or better) because nobody is going to have their back. ND fans and analysts can make record, resume and competition based arguments all they want, but it's futile because that's not what got them left out. It was their independence and the collusion against them by those that don't share their values."

Sampson simply thinks that a lot of Notre Dame fans are naive to the realities of the business surrounding the sport and that their arguments about why ND shouldn't have been left out are futile and useless relative to the reasons why they were... In short, win 11 games, or more, and don't give the committee and ESPN a reasonable chance to screw you, because if you leave that window open, they'll climb right through.

This is a really gracious reading of Pete. I've been following him forever and he always seemed to prize being more accepted by his national colleagues than ingratiating himself to the people who ostensibly pay his salary (whether directly or indirectly). A recent example that sticks out was when he was on Mandel and Feldman's podcast and Feldman basically pats him on the head, saying that people should follow Pete because "he was one of the reasonable ND writers". It definitely feels like he strives to be viewed like this.

But to steelman Pete's view in your opinion, he fails to consider that ND fans are no more or less reasonable than any other fan base. That we definitely understand, more than most, the dynamics of what being an independent means. What we also see is that lobbying and politicking works. And that comes from a lot of places. Conference commissioners, sure. Other school presidents no doubt. But also the media. Even, most importantly, the media. College football is now a TV product after all and the shot callers, the TV execs, or more swayed by media and public opinion than anything else. Now this is something ND, and by extension their media insiders, should be able to leverage, with a huge fan base and reportedly the 2nd biggest following nationwide after OSU. Yet, as far as I can tell, ND's beat is the only one of the power schools that seeks more to seem "fair and balanced" or "reasonable". The only major media figure that was full throated in support of ND was Brady Quinn. How many were for Miami? For the SEC? Even moving past this recent playoff debacle, your average IE reader can tell you who would reliable stump for SC, Michigan, etc. None of those figures ever present the other side, or address the shortcomings in their argument. They pitch the party line and are rewarded for that. ND is losing a media battle and no one at the University seems to be aware of it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: We deserve a better class of insiders.

 

[jprue24]

We ND fans absolutely look like whiney bitches if/when we continue complaining about being left out. Alabama getting waxed was our moment to go "SEE!" and a lot of media agreed with us in that moment. But, no one gives a fuck about our subsequent "See? SEE ND would have beat them" after every round. It's annoying and attracts trolls.

At this point in the cfp, hearing MF say "I don't know how to explain it" is going to rub people the wrong way. The vast majority of cfb fans will say he's tone deaf (or something similar) or stupid because the fundamental answer is obvious. Nuance is not going to exist for them when the answer is so "obvious"

Using only general context, he does sound ridiculous. If ND didn't lose two games they would have made the playoff. That is a fact.
If ND didn't lose one of those two games, they would have made the playoff. That is a fact.

Baring the corruption being laid bare creating a media frenzy, this is going to end up being the perception/prevailing sentiment. "Who gives a shit if you woulda, coulda... stop crying, you didn't earn a spot because you lost two games."

Edit - for clarity

 

[CanadalovesND]

We ND fans absolutely look like whiney bitches if/when we continue complaining about being left out. Alabama getting waxed was our moment to go "SEE!" and a lot of media agreed with us in that moment. But, no one gives a fuck about our subsequent "See? SEE ND would have beat them" after every round. It's annoying and attracts trolls.

At this point in the cfp, hearing MF say "I don't know how to explain it" is going to rub people the wrong way. The vast majority of cfb fans will say he's tone deaf (or something similar) or stupid because the fundamental answer is obvious. Nuisance is not going to exist for them when the answer is so "obvious"

Using only general context, he does sound ridiculous. If ND didn't lose two games they would have made the playoff. That is a fact.
If ND didn't lose one of those two games, they would have made the playoff. That is a fact.

Baring the corruption being laid bare creating a media frenzy, this is going to end up being the perception/prevailing sentiment. "Who gives a shit if you woulda, coulda... stop crying, you didn't earn a spot because you lost two games."

Yes, he should have known that losing the two biggest games you had would highly decrease your chances.

But, as we all know, even Freeman, ND was projected to be in the playoffs from the very first CFP rankings. And minus the BC game, all they did was beat the crap out of every team they played.

I’m sure it was just a little shock in the moment, and there emotional level of all of it at the time.

I think you’re overanalyzing his reaction to the moment.

 

[jprue24]

Yes, he should have known that losing the two biggest games you had would highly decrease your chances.

But, as we all know, even Freeman, ND was projected to be in the playoffs from the very first CFP rankings. And minus the BC game, all they did was beat the crap out of every team they played.

I’m sure it was just a little shock in the moment, and there emotional level of all of it at the time.

I think you’re overanalyzing his reaction to the moment.

I'm not analyzing MF's response. Like... at all

I'm analyzing how ND fans, CFB fans, and trolls are reacting/will react to his comments.

Using only general context, he does sound ridiculous. If ND didn't lose two games they would have made the playoff. That is a fact.
If ND didn't lose one of those two games, they would have made the playoff. That is a fact.

Meaning no nuance.

 

[FWIrish4]

This will be an unpopular take here, because I know Sampson is widely despised by the fanatics, but I think his overall take is pretty reasonable... He just, notoriously, delivers it in the most boring, milk toast way, that is completely unappealing to the emotionally charged segment of the fan base.

That opinion goes something like this...

"Notre Dame had only itself to blame for missing the playoffs, because they opened the season with back-to-back losses. A 12-0 or 11-1 Notre Dame is in every year time, but that second loss leaves Notre Dame vulnerable, without both confetence and ESPN backing, to fight for them in the committee room and through back channel pressure. This year it was made worse by the fact that the two teams Notre Dame was in competition with for the last spot were a team (Miami) carrying to flag of an ESPN conference, with the same record and a head-to-head win and an SEC darling (Alabama) living off the memory of Nick Saban and bolstered by ESPN investment in the SEC.

If Notre Dame doesn't want to join a conference and "play ball" with the rest of the sport, that's fine, but they then SHOULD expect to be the team that gets the short end of the stick when they don't control the controllables (ensuring they go 11-1 or better) because nobody is going to have their back. ND fans and analysts can make record, resume and competition based arguments all they want, but it's futile because that's not what got them left out. It was their independence and the collusion against them by those that don't share their values."

Sampson simply thinks that a lot of Notre Dame fans are naive to the realities of the business surrounding the sport and that their arguments about why ND shouldn't have been left out are futile and useless relative to the reasons why they were... In short, win 11 games, or more, and don't give the committee and ESPN a reasonable chance to screw you, because if you leave that window open, they'll climb right through.

Sampson started to lose me when he stated and wrote an article that ND initially being ranked #10 and 8 spots ahead of Miami was based on “vibes.”

He essentially started playing the drum the rest of the national beat started banging by downplaying the significance of how ND was playing at an elite level, adjusted by opponents, and deserving of being Top 10 from the jump.

Add in him complacently sitting around while his loud mouth colleague (Stew) and ex-colleague (Ari) were bashing ND for 4 straight weeks. Yeah, I can see why fans are irked by his dryness and poking the bear tweets.

I do love his writing and subscribe to the Athletic just for him, but I can definitely see where his tweets can bother hardcore fans.

 

[sfk324]

The problem with Pete is he acts like he's some all-knowing arbiter of facts, when the truth is he's about as knowledgeable as an average fan. From all appearances, neither he nor Fortuna want to be doing the job they are doing, but they don't have the knowledge or skills to do anything else.

Traditional sports journalism, like regular journalism, is a dying industry. People want insider information or expert analysis from pay-for-access sports media, and neither Pete nor Fortuna have the knowledge or contacts for either of those things, whether it be ND football or elsewhere. So they are left with the only other option: the Skip Bayless/Colin Cowherd model of hot takes and rage bait content to drive traffic to their website, YouTube, and podcasts.

 

[Huntr]

This will be an unpopular take here, because I know Sampson is widely despised by the fanatics, but I think his overall take is pretty reasonable... He just, notoriously, delivers it in the most boring, milk toast way, that is completely unappealing to the emotionally charged segment of the fan base.

That opinion goes something like this...

"Notre Dame had only itself to blame for missing the playoffs, because they opened the season with back-to-back losses. A 12-0 or 11-1 Notre Dame is in every year time, but that second loss leaves Notre Dame vulnerable, without both confetence and ESPN backing, to fight for them in the committee room and through back channel pressure. This year it was made worse by the fact that the two teams Notre Dame was in competition with for the last spot were a team (Miami) carrying to flag of an ESPN conference, with the same record and a head-to-head win and an SEC darling (Alabama) living off the memory of Nick Saban and bolstered by ESPN investment in the SEC.

If Notre Dame doesn't want to join a conference and "play ball" with the rest of the sport, that's fine, but they then SHOULD expect to be the team that gets the short end of the stick when they don't control the controllables (ensuring they go 11-1 or better) because nobody is going to have their back. ND fans and analysts can make record, resume and competition based arguments all they want, but it's futile because that's not what got them left out. It was their independence and the collusion against them by those that don't share their values."

Sampson simply thinks that a lot of Notre Dame fans are naive to the realities of the business surrounding the sport and that their arguments about why ND shouldn't have been left out are futile and useless relative to the reasons why they were... In short, win 11 games, or more, and don't give the committee and ESPN a reasonable chance to screw you, because if you leave that window open, they'll climb right through.

 

[CoachB]

Nobody that is a decision maker cares, at all, who the better team was, or who deserved it more. The ACC was getting a team in due to their partnership with ESPN and as soon as Virgnia lost, Miami's same record and head-to-head win ensured they'd get in and the SEC's power, combined with the media darling that is Alabama, ensured they would get in.

There is nothing "just" or "fair" in big busines. It's simply about power and relationships. ND get the short end of that stick this year and the media know it, so the sane ones aren't going to sit around a gripe about inclusion metrics, when they know that ND wasn't left out on the basis of critical analysis between teams.

Then the thing needs to be blown up yesterday and go back to computers. In no galaxy can this ever be acceptable.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Then the thing needs to be blown up yesterday and go back to computers. In no galaxy can this ever be acceptable.

Easy to say, but unless we're all going to stop watching and actually damage their bottom line, they're going to keep on keepin' on. And frankly, their gamble has been calculated and correct.

 

[CoachB]

Anyone that tries to write off ND being out as acceptable because they lost two games can see themselves out. They lost to the team in the national title game and another to another team that was as good as anyone in the country all year. Lost both barely. Were years better at the end of the season. Get out of here with that crap. Alabama and Oklahoma lost two also and were garbage. Don't try to justify the travesty that was leaving ND out this year. It will make you look like an idiot that knows nothing about football, tbh.

Edit: Talking to the Sampson's of the world here.

 

[CoachB]

Easy to say, but unless we're all going to stop watching and actually damage their bottom line, they're going to keep on keepin' on. And frankly, their gamble has been calculated and correct.

I haven't watched a second of ESPN or Disney since. Cancelled our family trip to Disney.

 

[fightingirish26]

Easy to say, but unless we're all going to stop watching and actually damage their bottom line, they're going to keep on keepin' on. And frankly, their gamble has been calculated and correct.

Id say plenty of IErs havent watched a second of these playoffs, myself included. I havent watched a second of any espn channels since that bullshit, and cancelled my espn+.

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

I haven't watched a second of ESPN or Disney since. Cancelled our family trip to Disney.

I’ve watched some of the playoffs, but I didn’t pay for it. I canceled Disney long ago.

 

[stlnd01]

The problem with Pete is he acts like he's some all-knowing arbiter of facts, when the truth is he's about as knowledgeable as an average fan. From all appearances, neither he nor Fortuna want to be doing the job they are doing, but they don't have the knowledge or skills to do anything else.

Traditional sports journalism, like regular journalism, is a dying industry. People want insider information or expert analysis from pay-for-access sports media, and neither Pete nor Fortuna have the knowledge or contacts for either of those things, whether it be ND football or elsewhere. So they are left with the only other option: the Skip Bayless/Colin Cowherd model of hot takes and rage bait content to drive traffic to their website, YouTube, and podcasts.

I think Pete has pretty good sources/access at Notre Dame - you see it in his analyses of actual football - he just works primarily for a more national outlet, so has less incentive to fanboy/hot-take and is by nature a more low-key, "rational" type of guy anyway. If you want chest-beating fire-and-brimstone stuff, you'll need to find it elsewhere.

Fortuna, OTOH, is barely employed and brings little to the table. He hasn't actually covered Notre Dame like it's his job in almost a decade at this point and it shows.

 

[dublinirish]

Feel like a bunch of folks don’t like Pete because he is woke Fortuna is a chode though and any hate towards him is justified


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Huntr]

Feel like a bunch of folks don’t like Pete because he is woke

wut

 

[IrishInOntario]

I haven't watched a second of ESPN or Disney since. Cancelled our family trip to Disney.

Good. I hope you keep that uo in protest and either boycott ND games televised by them, or find a way to pirate the game instead. That would be refreshingly consistent.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Id say plenty of IErs havent watched a second of these playoffs, myself included. I havent watched a second of any espn channels since that bullshit, and cancelled my espn+.

Good. I hope you keep that uo in protest and either boycott ND games televised by them, or find a way to pirate the game instead. That would be refreshingly consistent.

 

[CoachB]

Good. I hope you keep that uo in protest and either boycott ND games televised by them, or find a way to pirate the game instead. That would be refreshingly consistent.

Oh, I will pirate those for sure.

 

[ShakeDown]

I just wanna add to this thread that irishillustrated trolling their customers essentially by publishing pieces such as “10 best Notre Dame pop culture references” “10 best Shameock Series jerseys” “10 best Notre Dame stadium concession items” all the while ignoring their subscribers was the final straw for me to cancel. I get it. There’s a gag order on information. Don’t insult us with this BS in the middle of what has been a bad portal season so far. At least save it for February when nothing is going on.

I don’t even remember the last time I posted to IE, but just wanted to add this is exactly why I canceled this week. I’ve been a subscriber since I graduated in 2009, but TP has become insufferable... sigh, I guess I’ll have to give Mike Frank a try again.

 

[Dale]

Prister whining on new II pod. Said Marsh and Foley could have been plug and play for a natty run and now they just got pieces that are more building for the future and in the mix.

Dude has lost it the last 6 weeks. Imagine whining because because a Tulsa TE didn’t end up transferring here.

 

[Irish5Saint]

Prister whining on new II pod. Said Marsh and Foley could have been plug and play for a natty run and now they just got pieces that are more building for the future and in the mix.

Dude has lost it the last 6 weeks. Imagine whining because because a Tulsa TE didn’t end up transferring here.

I’m with him on the TE at least. TE has become a weakness at ND and Foley would’ve helped there

 

[2013Irish]

Prister whining on new II pod. Said Marsh and Foley could have been plug and play for a natty run and now they just got pieces that are more building for the future and in the mix.

Dude has lost it the last 6 weeks. Imagine whining because because a Tulsa TE didn’t end up transferring here.

He spent an entire offseason trashing Jordan Clark, then did an about face the second the season started. His insights are worthless.

 

[Silentkaw]

Prister whining on new II pod. Said Marsh and Foley could have been plug and play for a natty run and now they just got pieces that are more building for the future and in the mix.

Dude has lost it the last 6 weeks. Imagine whining because because a Tulsa TE didn’t end up transferring here.

He’s probably mad we went through the “effort” of watching their tape for nothing.