ND Oversold on Kelly?

[irishfanjho15]

Day didn't start, Lewis-Moore did. Farley isn't starting, Collinsworth is. Carlo wasnt the primary starter, Fox was. Tuitt is clearly recovering from an injury, so he is not his 2012 self.

So, it's kinda four.

Thanks man, other than thinking about Collinsworth I was thinking the same thing. I was just too lazy to type it out.

The bottom line is we have little leadership on the defensive side of the ball and it's keeping us out of position. If they had mics in the helmets we'd be fine. It's hard to communicate that. In college I always made sure we were where we supposed to be and going where we were supposed to be going in my position group. Just like the QB communicated everything to me as WR, to the center, and the RB. The defense is the same way. Either the SS or the MLB, unless special circumstance exist, make the defensive calls. Then the info gets disseminated. ND is a day late and dollar short call/positioning/communication wise on D. They really only have a 4/5 returning starters and we have no one in the middle who can even remotely mimic Manti call wise and its killing us. Either cream rises or the cream isn't there. Not to mention, we are talent/athleticism short at the QB position on offense. Guys there is only so much that can be done. These kids fight and Kelly at least seems to be making subtle adjustments to routes by the receivers to challenge DBs to be disciplined and help Tommy gain valuable tenths of seconds to the windows he has to throw in, which is an important to make up for his slow decision making and average arm.

A commitment to the run will help. Bring along the young guys at WR, on OL, and hope Tommy can make just enough throws and your skill guys can make just enough plays. Keep the turnovers down by minimizing Tommy to 20 or less throws a game and you have a legit shot. If Kelly could or would use Malik (hopefully if understands enough) it should help. You get defenses in bad plays when you switch QBs effectively.

My biggest complaint is I don't know if Martin is good enough as a play caller, right now. I see tendencies he gets into and in the flow of game I'm guessing play calls because of certain formations. That's dangerous. Perfect example I can give is the toss sweep ND runs, when he calls it he's always in predictable down, distance, and formation. The difference is, when I watch Stanford play I can never figure them out based off their formations. And I watch every Stanford game. The Cardinal are only predictable when they want to make a point.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Forgot that, you are right.

I honestly didn't know that because they both play so much this year.

So you basically have two returning, half-time returning starters (Fox and Calabrese). Since we're talking experience, I'd argue that is better than having one return with no experience, and one that started 13 games, but either way, I think it's safe to say between the two of them, their experience equates to at that of least one returning starter. But technically you are correct.

That's all fair. But in the preseason the defense was returning eight, and that's just not the case and its showing. That is the greater point.

Some people, not pointing fingers, think Disco forgot how to football. I think otherwise.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

That's all fair. But in the preseason the defense was returning eight, and that's just not the case and its showing. That is the greater point.

Some people, not pointing fingers, think Disco forgot how to football. I think otherwise.

Disco is dead. Let it go.

 

[GowerND11]

Disco is dead. Let it go.

LULZ! Reps.

 

[irishpat183]

You're right. The hate for Tommy Rees obviously trumps the logic that football is a team game, and that people win or lose as a team. There's really no need for the defense to ever stop anyone, is there? After all, if the Offense just calls the right plays, and executes perfectly, they will score a TD on every possession.

Yes...it's unfair to criticize a guy who against UM threw two critical picks late and completed only 50% of his passes.

It's also unfair to criticze the same guy who, despite D showing up against MSU and winning that game FOR US, completed only 40% of his passes and looked just awful.

And when it comes to OU, he completed 37% of his passes (Must be the "haters" fault) and threw 3 INT's.


But it's the Haters. We just hate Tommy. Against our only 3 quality opponents, he's been about as bad as it gets.



Give it a rest. Tommy isn't any good. Face it.

 

[kmoose]

Yes...it's unfair to criticize a guy who against UM threw two critical picks late and completed only 50% of his passes.

It's also unfair to criticze the same guy who, despite D showing up against MSU and winning that game FOR US, completed only 40% of his passes and looked just awful.

And when it comes to OU, he completed 37% of his passes (Must be the "haters" fault) and threw 3 INT's.


But it's the Haters. We just hate Tommy. Against our only 3 quality opponents, he's been about as bad as it gets.



Give it a rest. Tommy isn't any good. Face it.

It's not unfair to criticize Rees. It's unfair to characterize him as the sole reason that we lost 2 games.

Give it a rest. Tommy isn't the only problem on this team. Face it.

 

[GATTACA!]

Yes...it's unfair to criticize a guy who against UM threw two critical picks late and completed only 50% of his passes.

It's also unfair to criticze the same guy who, despite D showing up against MSU and winning that game FOR US, completed only 40% of his passes and looked just awful.

And when it comes to OU, he completed 37% of his passes (Must be the "haters" fault) and threw 3 INT's.


But it's the Haters. We just hate Tommy. Against our only 3 quality opponents, he's been about as bad as it gets.



Give it a rest. Tommy isn't any good. Face it.

Sing it Pat

Edit: gif not working you get the idea

 

[Kanye West]

I disagree about the Michigan game. The defense forced two count them TWO stops all game. One punt and the Tuitt pick. If the DEFENSE steps up against Michigan, we don't put the ball in Tommy's hands, we run the ball more, and very effectively I might add, and chew the clock while potentially building a lead.

2-5 in the redzone and a horrible pick before halftime screwed the defense. The best way for the defense to be less of an issue is to kill time of the clock and run the ball. Losing by 10 minutes in that category is bad. Its not Tommy's fault for Michigan's but the offense was more to blame than the defense. Tommy had a 40.1 rating against Michigan, and a 10 rating against Oklahoma. Those are JaMarcus Russell bad stats.

 

[DillonHall]

You're right. The hate for Tommy Rees obviously trumps the logic that football is a team game, and that people win or lose as a team. There's really no need for the defense to ever stop anyone, is there? After all, if the Offense just calls the right plays, and executes perfectly, they will score a TD on every possession.

Where are those idiots who defended Tommy with his win-loss record? I wonder if those people have an opinion...

 

[kmoose]

2-5 in the redzone and a horrible pick before halftime screwed the defense.

I suppose that the offense scoring on 6 of their 12 possessions screwed the defense, as well?

And ND was 3-5 in the red zone.

 

[GowerND11]

2-5 in the redzone and a horrible pick before halftime screwed the defense. The best way for the defense to be less of an issue is to kill time of the clock and run the ball. Losing by 10 minutes in that category is bad. Its not Tommy's fault for Michigan's but the offense was more to blame than the defense. Tommy had a 40.1 rating against Michigan, and a 10 rating against Oklahoma. Those are JaMarcus Russell bad stats.

Again how is the offense to blame for the defense not stepping up? They only made 2 stops. The offense isn't made to play shoot out. If the defense makes some stops, like I said, we can chew clock with the running game and take the ball out of Tommy's hands, which results in a better passer rating and a chance to win. Should the offense have done better in the redzone? Yeah we can certainly make that argument, but the defense really failed us in that game.

 

[Grahambo]

Again how is the offense to blame for the defense not stepping up? They only made 2 stops. The offense isn't made to play shoot out. If the defense makes some stops, like I said, we can chew clock with the running game and take the ball out of Tommy's hands, which results in a better passer rating and a chance to win. Should the offense have done better in the redzone? Yeah we can certainly make that argument, but the defense really failed us in that game.

The offense, specifically Rees, has committed too many dumb turnovers. He's got 5 INT's on the year. ND is 0-2 during those games. He's completed 53% of his passes. How can a team run the ball effectively when you can't even act like a threat through the air? He's supposed to be the experienced, savvy QB who can protect the football and he's failed. I'm not hating on him either. He's always been limited physically and is better suited for the lower B1G, upper MAC type teams. I'm disappointed he's been careless with the ball.

Pick 1: Down 20-13: 2nd and 10 at ND 42 Tommy Rees pass intercepted by Blake Countess at the Mich 47, returned for 30 yards to the NDame 23. (Michigan then scores a TD)

Pick 2: Down 41-30: 1st and Goal at MICH 6 Tommy Rees pass intercepted by Blake Countess at the Mich 0, returned for no gain for a touchback.

Pick 3: 0-0: 3rd and 7 at ND 28 Tommy Rees pass intercepted by Corey Nelson at the NDame 24, returned for 24 yards for a TOUCHDOWN.

Pick 4: Down 7-0: 1st and 10 at ND 34 Tommy Rees pass intercepted by Frank Shannon at the NDame 49, returned for 17 yards to the NDame 32. (OK TD next drive)

Pick 5: Down 14-7: 3rd and 10 at OKLA 24 Tommy Rees pass intercepted by Julian Wilson at the Okla 12, returned for no gain to the Okla 12. (OK TD next drive)

I get the defense could have been better argument, I really do but the defense was always going to take a step back. They were decimated by guys who graduated and by Tuitt's surgery. Now add Sheldon Day's ankle, Springmann's injury and you are losing a lot. The offense was supposed to help carry the defense this year. The Rees turnovers have been killer and they have been forced errors too. (Although the pick-6 against OU was more OL fault.)

 

[GowerND11]

The offense, specifically Rees, has committed too many dumb turnovers. He's got 5 INT's on the year. ND is 0-2 during those games. He's completed 53% of his passes. How can a team run the ball effectively when you can't even act like a threat through the air? He's supposed to be the experienced, savvy QB who can protect the football and he's failed. I'm not hating on him either. He's always been limited physically and is better suited for the lower B1G, upper MAC type teams. I'm disappointed he's been careless with the ball.

Pick 1: Down 20-13: 2nd and 10 at ND 42 Tommy Rees pass intercepted by Blake Countess at the Mich 47, returned for 30 yards to the NDame 23. (Michigan then scores a TD)

Pick 2: Down 41-30: 1st and Goal at MICH 6 Tommy Rees pass intercepted by Blake Countess at the Mich 0, returned for no gain for a touchback.

Pick 3: 0-0: 3rd and 7 at ND 28 Tommy Rees pass intercepted by Corey Nelson at the NDame 24, returned for 24 yards for a TOUCHDOWN.

Pick 4: Down 7-0: 1st and 10 at ND 34 Tommy Rees pass intercepted by Frank Shannon at the NDame 49, returned for 17 yards to the NDame 32. (OK TD next drive)

Pick 5: Down 14-7: 3rd and 10 at OKLA 24 Tommy Rees pass intercepted by Julian Wilson at the Okla 12, returned for no gain to the Okla 12. (OK TD next drive)

I get the defense could have been better argument, I really do but the defense was always going to take a step back. They were decimated by guys who graduated and by Tuitt's surgery. Now add Sheldon Day's ankle, Springmann's injury and you are losing a lot. The offense was supposed to help carry the defense this year. The Rees turnovers have been killer and they have been forced errors too. (Although the pick-6 against OU was more OL fault.)

Oh I agree his turnovers have been huge, especially at really inconvenient times (not that there is a convenient time for one, but you get what I'm saying). I just feel that had the defense stepped up two more times against Michigan we might not see the pick at the end of half or at the end of the game. These are coulda, woulda, shoulda's I know, but I just think the D was even there to make plays against Michigan and just couldn't seem to do it. Part of that was Gardner's ability to escape pressure, I will give him that.

I also agree about Oklahoma. You can excuse the pick 6 for Tommy. Any QB getting blindsided like that could have had that pick happen. I can even slightly excuse the second INT against Oklahoma. But you are right in that he absolutely forced that 3rd one against Oklahoma. Even so if the defense could at least clamp and force a FG all is not lost. Either way, we all know TO's kill teams, and it shows in both our losses.

 

[irishpat183]

Defense...offense...whatever.


He isn't even completing passes at a high %, which has absolutely nothing to do with how our defense is playing.

You guys are confusing this with a QB who actually is busting *** and making plays and having a good game. If Tommy was over 60%, had half the turnovers, and was making plays??? I'd agree.

But he's not. Because he's not good.



Top 25 in college football <------ Whoever said that **** at the begining of the year should be banned. LOL

 

[ulukinatme]

You guys need to get over the Tommy bashing. You can point fingers all you want, but Tommy is our QB and this year he gives us the best option like it or not. This team was never meant to rely on the QB to produce a dazzling offense. 5 picks in 4 games is not bad, especially when you consider some of those came on tipped passes and a hit from behind. We were banking on the defense getting more stops, and thats what Kelly has focused on when he came to ND. We've taken a step back this year on defense. We didn't get teams like Michigan and Oklahoma off the field often enough, very few punts in those games. The play calling on offense hasn't been very good either. We should have been running more power football and play action to offset Tommy's weaknesses. Five wide sets are horrible when you don't have a QB that can run a draw or that can take off if no one is open.

 

[loomis41973]

Spending some money on a real O-coordinator would pay for 1-2 more wins per season.

 

[Irish Insanity]

If so, we're having a respectful, ND fan, gentlemans discussion here. Go find someone on the monkey bars to play with.

We rarely have what you are describing. Maybe he's having a hard time recognizing it as it rarely exists on here lately.

If we avoid negative 3 on turnover margin the rest of the season we should be OK. I could stand to see us FORCE more turnovers and actually go positive on that TO margin. We knew going in that with Tommy at QB we had this risk and we should not throw the entire program under the bus because one of our big turnover games came against one of our better opponents this season.

I don't think avoiding a -3 TO margin will be enough to make us ok the rest of the season. We need to be on the on the plus side in some of those games. Like a few on the plus side. The D obviously isn't what it was last year, but the inability to force turnovers at times is hurting us pretty bad, and that thought never crossed my mind prior to your post.

If you're not gonna be lineup correctly then you need to have elite athleticism to overcome that mistake which is why I keep asking for PT for Max Redfield. He's the most athletic safety and should be getting his feet wet.

Our saftey play has been less than stellar this year. Redfield will replace our current ones soon. I don't see why it can't be sooner rather than later as to get experience while learning in live action. I doubt it can be worse than what we have and the benefit down the line would be great.

Where are those idiots who defended Tommy with his win-loss record? I wonder if those people have an opinion...

Lol. Doesn't it say Tommy 12-2 under your user name? Or were you trying to be funny and I'm an idiot. Very possibly the later.

Defense...offense...whatever.


He isn't even completing passes at a high %, which has absolutely nothing to do with how our defense is playing.

You guys are confusing this with a QB who actually is busting *** and making plays and having a good game. If Tommy was over 60%, had half the turnovers, and was making plays??? I'd agree.

But he's not. Because he's not good.

He has a carrer % over 60 and he's been ragged on since day one. Hell in 2011 it was 65.5% and he was killed then too. I understand the frustration and not labeling him a great QB, but your numbers are scewed. I agree with the overall point of your post, but his completion % has never really paralleled the eye test or results of him playing.

 

[Grahambo]

You guys need to get over the Tommy bashing. You can point fingers all you want, but Tommy is our QB and this year he gives us the best option like it or not. This team was never meant to rely on the QB to produce a dazzling offense. 5 picks in 4 games is not bad, especially when you consider some of those came on tipped passes and a hit from behind. We were banking on the defense getting more stops, and thats what Kelly has focused on when he came to ND. We've taken a step back this year on defense. We didn't get teams like Michigan and Oklahoma off the field often enough, very few punts in those games. The play calling on offense hasn't been very good either. We should have been running more power football and play action to offset Tommy's weaknesses. Five wide sets are horrible when you don't have a QB that can run a draw or that can take off if no one is open.

People need to stop confusing criticism with bashing. Sorry if I don't shake my pom's pom's all day long but I tell it like I see it. I've always supported Tommy and will continue to do so but he has been disappointing and his performance has proven it. I have zero problem with his skill set and work ethic but it's not suited for big time football.

And while some may have thought the defense was gonna duplicate last year, I was not one of them. Too much was lost this past year and there were just too many question marks at too many positions. Again, if he takes care of the ball better, especially in those crucial moments, things are different today.

 

[DillonHall]

Lol. Doesn't it say Tommy 12-2 under your user name? Or were you trying to be funny and I'm an idiot. Very possibly the later.

Haha, I think some smart *** mod put that there to irritate me a couple years ago when we were having the debate

 

[Irish Insanity]

Haha, I think some smart *** mod put that there to irritate me a couple years ago when we were having the debate

Hmm, now it says something different

 

[loomis41973]

Chive on

 

[ACamp1900]

Hmm, now it says something different

No it doesn't.....

 

[Irish Insanity]

No it doesn't.....

Sonofabitch

 

[phork]

Can we hire Narduzzi please? Atleast we know Diaco won't be leaving any time soon. Heh.

 

[palinurus]

If you had bothered to read the posts in context, my reply would need no explanation.

Feel free to highlight where I underfairly responded to Pat's retort.

You negative repped me?? Over this???!! I wasn't even talking about you, jack. In fact, I was agreeing with you. I was talking about people who were saying "Why can't we be like Alabama?" My point, if you read it at all, was that we should compare ourselves to programs like ours, like Stanford, and not to Alabama, whose standards, which you correctly cited, we don't accept. You need to grow up, sport.

 

[Norcal Irish]

I am new to posting here but have been reading all of your posts for years now. I have asked this question before and am sorry if this has been asked in the previous pages. Does anyone have inside information if Coach Kelly and his staff have a good relationship with our guys? I have loved Notre Dame Football for as long as i remember but to me something does not seem right. Am i wrong?

 

[BGIF]

You negative repped me?? Over this???!! I wasn't even talking about you, jack. In fact, I was agreeing with you. I was talking about people who were saying "Why can't we be like Alabama?" My point, if you read it at all, was that we should compare ourselves to programs like ours, like Stanford, and not to Alabama, whose standards, which you correctly cited, we don't accept. You need to grow up, sport.

IF you weren't even talking about me, why did you quote me?

And IF I wasn't the one unfairly comparing, why didn't you quote whoever you were talking about?


Nobody was talking about comparing programs.


The thread topic is about Kelly.

BobD wrote in Post 18:

You can break down stats or whatever you want, there isn't a better man in the country to have as head football coach at Notre Dame

rikkitikki08 agreed in Post 19:

This

IrishPat countered "to the better man" in Post 20 with:

Nick Saban (while tapping his rings on the table)....

And I replied to IrishPat in Post 31 in context with BobD's key phrase "head football coach at Notre Dame"

Nick Saban wouldn't be allowed to bring in 130 recruits in 4 years at ND, would he Pat?

Nick Saban wouldn't be allowed to bring his JUCOs in at ND, would he Pat?

Nick Saban wouldn't be allowed to get half his players past ND Admissions, would he Pat?


Those are just three of the reasons Urban Meyer turned down ND. (He can tap on the table with an NC ring as well.)

Now ND doesn't Oversign, does it?

ND doesn't take JUCOs, does it?

ND had both tight Admissions and tough classroom competition to maintain eligibilty, doesn't it?

And Urban Meyer wanted all of those things and new he wasn't going to get it - AT NOTRE DAME!


We were talking about the coaching situation and factors at ND.


Saban has coached at MSU, LSU, and UA. Meyer at BG, Utah, UF and OSU. If I wanted to compare programs I would have done that.


You started your previous posts noting that you hadn't read the posts so you had no basis for your "unfairly" comment did you?

You got neg repped for being too lazy to read and jumping in about a topic not being discussed.

Reading is fundamental. Try it!

 

[Irish Insanity]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Louis Nix on playing at AT&T Stadium: "I heard the Jumbotron is real nice. Hopeflly it will influence Swarbrick to put one of those in here"</p>— Irish Illustrated (@NDatRivals) <a href="https://twitter.com/NDatRivals/statuses/385571177835397120">October 3, 2013</a></blockquote>
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[BGIF]

I am new to posting here but have been reading all of your posts for years now. I have asked this question before and am sorry if this has been asked in the previous pages. Does anyone have inside information if Coach Kelly and his staff have a good relationship with our guys? I have loved Notre Dame Football for as long as i remember but to me something does not seem right. Am i wrong?

In the first year or two the relationship was obviously strained. New coach replaced the coach that recruited most of the players and human nature says the loyalty lies with "the guy that brought me" until bonds are forged with the new boss. I've been in that role as a subordinant having a long standing highly regarded boss terminated and struggling through the new guy's adjustments including scrapping the way we did things and installing all sorts of new programs, rules, and regulations. I've also been the new manager replacing the beloved predecessor who wallowed in red ink.


It's not unique to sports, it's part of organizational dynamics.

Happens ever day in the business world, in families with a new parent (second marriage). Sometimes the bitterness fades, sometimes it never does.

The was a incident where Weis came back into town (he owned a house nearby) and some of "his playesrs" went over to his house to complain about the new guy. Talk about threatening the new guy. Mutiny fomenting in South Bend. On the surface it was a ripple with a strange comment in a press conference. But there were strong undercurrents.

Those guys have moved on. The vast majority of current players came here with Kelly.

Some may be unhappy with their PT, slot on the depth chart, Position Coach doesn't understand them, the offensive or defensive scheme, etc, etc. But again that happens everywhere in every organization.

The only QB and RB controversy at ND is on the boards. The players (and the coaches) see the other guys in practice and know who gives them the best shot to win.

Every coach at ND has had harmony and conflict, some more than others. Holtz had a number of unhappy players and a coach or two. Joe Moore was pissed about the Holtz move from a smash mouth running attack to a finesse passing game and fought the transition. It was contagious to his charges. You may recall taking over coaching the OTs in '96 and then starting a true freshman DL at RG against Navy in Croke Park. Holtz was sending a message loudly and clearly. This was an organizational issue and it was HIS organization.

I don't know what you have observed. How about sharing rather than the rest of us trying to read you mind.

 

[anarin]

Still waiting on pat's response...



The suspense is killing me!!