ND Oversold on Kelly?

[WakeUpEchoes]

Given all the talk that people had on here and elsewhere, I expected a 9 to 10 win season. Mainly because I thought our defense would be dominant.

So I guess until we go 8-4, you weren't subjectively oversold on anything.

 

[bigedefense]

I respect your opinions TP, and we are in a better place since 2009, but can you honestly say that this is where you expected to be four years in? I saw that you sent a tweet yesterday that Rome was not built overnight, but we are four years in. Look at the success that others have had in that time period: Saban, Meyer, Shaw, Chip Kelly, Dabo, Fisher (FSU), Sumlin (although he has the best QB in the country). There is a long list of these coaches that built it a lot quicker than Kelly has. I understand we played in the BCSNCG last year, but we were a few plays away from being 9-3 (yes...we made the plays and were 12-0...bounces are part of the game). The consistency that he preached when he got here is not evident, and the development he talked about isn't necessarily happening either. Four years in we STILL can't get a DB to turn their head on a fade route.

I think Saban got thumped by Utah in the Sugar Bowl in his 3rd year. I think the score was 30 or 31 points for Utah and Alabama had either 13 or 17. I can't remember for sure and I am way to lazy to google it. I think Saban went something like 12 & 2 in his third year at Alabama. If you want to compare, then by the way I look at it, Kelly may be a little ahead of Saban. Now Sabans 4th year, yeah, Coach Kelly won't be able to compare because Bama went 14-0 and beat, I think, Texas for the National Championship. I honestly believe if Golson had not had a brain fart and gotten expelled, Coach Kelly would be closer to compareable to Coach Saban. I only compared Saban because, lets face it, right now, he is the top dog in coaching.

So, I can spin it the way I did, or you can spin it another way, but the fact remains, no one was on here talking about bad coaching last year from November 17th (the day ND beat Wake Forrest to tie the most home wins in a season at 7, Oregon lost, Bama lost, and ND moved into the #1 spot in the rankings) until Jan 7th up till the game was played. I remember folks on here saying Diaco was the greatest thing since soft toilet paper & Coach Kelly was a genius. Funny how Coach Kelly and staff went from being genius's, to being average coaches that are over their head. They are the same coaches they were then. Its like Coach Holtz has said many times, "Coaches are not as good as people say when they are winning and they are not as bad as people say when they are when the team loses." I would be willing to bet a testicle that NO ONE wants to win every game more than the coaching staff at Notre Dame. Not from you, but I have read others post that Coach Martin needs to go because he is unimaginative, cant call plays, is predictable. I say to that, there is A LOT more that goes into play calling than getting plays out of that "little green notebook"! (For those of you wondering what the he11 Im talking about, from the movie, "The Waterboy") WE are not at practice. If a team just cant do some things, it doesn't matter how good a coach you are, they just can't do it. This year was severely hampered by Golson's actions. The offense is geared toward his skill set. For reasons that we, the fans, don't know, Coach Kelly has made it clear that MZ will not play this year unless the starter & his backup are injured. I would really like to see him get in there and learn the college game. As a fan, I want him ready to compete with Golson next year for the #1 job. Then we have a high quality starter & backup. Personally, I think ND will have at least 3 great high school QB's on the roster when it is MZ's 4th year, thus the dire need to have him back for a 5th year won't be there. The coaches feel different, so I agree with them. The staff earned some lee way last year with me. I didn't expect to see the #1 lit up on campus last year. I didn't expect to see ND playing for an NC. The coaches had the parts they needed and they made it happen. This year, they don't. Not because they dropped the ball, but because the main piece of the offensive gear is missing. I am like a previous poster, I think with that piece (GOlson) the defense plays much better. Just my (and my meds in the IV) feelings on all this. Sorry if I got off on other topics like I did the other night. If I did, mods please delete my post.

At the end of the day, we are all Irish fans. GO IRISH!!!

 

[ScooterIrish]

Here is how to look at this:
Player Development - A. He's taken guys who were anywhere from "bad" to "meh" and made them awesome by putting them in the right situation to succeed. Does anyone think Harrison Smith would've been a 1st round draft pick playing for Weis? Eifert? Floyd improved from a 3rd round grade to a top 10 pick thanks to another year with Kelly.
Recruiting - C+. Do not be fooled by some lofty rankings. When you adjust for kids who immediately transferred or otherwise washed out, the classes are mediocre. The 2011 class was top 20ish when you remove Lynch and Prestwood. The 2012 class was a total disaster. The 2013 class was good, but the #3 ranking was due to having EV, Bryant, Redfield, and Smith. EV is already gone dropping us down to 7th and if Bryant were to wash out we'd be sitting outside the top 10. The 2014 class looks very average... blame UNC bags o' cash, girlfriends, parents, whatever... it's just not shaping up to be a top 5 class. Compare our recruiting/player retention to a Michigan or Ohio State and it's obvious it's just average.
Leadership - B+. His style doesn't jive with some people, but there is no doubt that the team is tougher and more focused with him at the helm. He also navigates the waters of Notre Dame pretty well.
Xs and Os - D. There is no legitimate reason why 4 years in our offense is still this boring/bad. He's not an inventive or innovative coach and he also doesn't have an offensive coordinator on his staff to make up for that. On defense, we've played a simplistic scheme with superior talent to generally good results. Remove the superior talent this year, and all of a sudden the ILBs and secondary get abused for big plays.

So when you grade him out completely it's somewhere around a B. If you graded out someone like Saban they'd be A, A, A, B. If you graded out someone like Chip Kelly they'd be A, C, A, A+. So in a sense... yeah, if you're expecting Kelly to be the best in the business then you're "oversold"... at the same time, there are very few out there better than him. His main deficiencies, IMO, could be easily corrected by getting a real OC and some tweaks to recruiting strategy.

Tough to argue with this, though I might put recruiting down to C-. The front 7 next year is going to be really bad due to some misses we have had on the defensive side.

 

[Cackalacky]

Given all the talk that people had on here and elsewhere, I expected a 9 to 10 win season. Mainly because I thought our defense would be dominant.

Was this before or after spring camp? Maybe it was after we lost Spond and Springman? TR being the unequivocal starter? Was it when we got down to about 75 scholarship players?

Many posters here believed that we would hover around the 9 win mark and that still looks reasonable, though with a fair dose of uncertainty. With a few bad bounces we could be a 8 or 7-win team. Our offseason was harsh and now we have issues that obviously we did not have a while back.

 

[NDinFL]

This thread is a dumpster fire

 

[bigedefense]

Aka Jeff Quinn. You cannot win without an offense. This defense would be much much better if the offense actually sustained drives and didn't go 3 and out so much.

I agree 100%. A few years ago, I had a team that started the year off 5 and 0. We had beaten the number 1, number 7, and number 12 team in the state. We lost our QB to an everted ankle sprain (he was participating in a 3 on 3 basketball tourney at our school to help raise money so our Self Contained Sp Ed kids could go participate in the Special Olympics. We didn't have him for the next 4 games. WE went 2 & 2. We lost to a team that only won ONE GAME THAT YEAR! Our defense gave up more yards in that game than we had in the first 5 games put together!!! Even in the 2 games we won, our D gave up triple the yards we were giving up. I instantly became the village idiot. Not because I agreed to let him participate in the tourney, but because we didn't run "the right plays" the fans thought. WE ran every play that the backup could run and even ran a few that he couldn't run so well!!! My QB came back for the last regular season game, it was senior night, & we beat the newly tabbed number 1 team in the state. They were averaging 45+ points a game and we shut them out! We went on to win State and guess what??? I was no longer the village idiot!

 

[Buster Bluth]

Here is how to look at this:
Player Development - A. He's taken guys who were anywhere from "bad" to "meh" and made them awesome by putting them in the right situation to succeed. Does anyone think Harrison Smith would've been a 1st round draft pick playing for Weis? Eifert? Floyd improved from a 3rd round grade to a top 10 pick thanks to another year with Kelly.

Yep.

Recruiting - C+. Do not be fooled by some lofty rankings. When you adjust for kids who immediately transferred or otherwise washed out, the classes are mediocre. The 2011 class was top 20ish when you remove Lynch and Prestwood. The 2012 class was a total disaster. The 2013 class was good, but the #3 ranking was due to having EV, Bryant, Redfield, and Smith. EV is already gone dropping us down to 7th and if Bryant were to wash out we'd be sitting outside the top 10. The 2014 class looks very average... blame UNC bags o' cash, girlfriends, parents, whatever... it's just not shaping up to be a top 5 class. Compare our recruiting/player retention to a Michigan or Ohio State and it's obvious it's just average.

Player retention != recruiting. This staff got guys like Lynch/Prestwood on campus. "They should have looked at different guys then!" Maybe. I think it's fair to say Kelly and his staff learned a lot about what it takes to succeed at Notre Dame and took a different and better approach in 2013.

I think they probably swung for the fences too much in 2012, but they rebounded in 2013. You're counting on something that hasn't happened (Bryant leaving) to knock that class, sorta weak logic.

I don't think 2014 is average either, and Notre Dame is still in on many elite recruits.

I think it's often silly to look at class rankings when Kelly and Co so obviously want the supreme athletes and/or who aren't necessarily playing their college position. You just have to take that into account.

Finally, this staff has won recruiting battles against Ohio State, Southern Cal, Penn State, Texas, Oklahoma, etc etc etc. They win on the recruiting trail more often than you're giving credit for.

Leadership - B+. His style doesn't jive with some people, but there is no doubt that the team is tougher and more focused with him at the helm. He also navigates the waters of Notre Dame pretty well.

A fair grade.

Xs and Os - D. There is no legitimate reason why 4 years in our offense is still this boring/bad. He's not an inventive or innovative coach and he also doesn't have an offensive coordinator on his staff to make up for that. On defense, we've played a simplistic scheme with superior talent to generally good results. Remove the superior talent this year, and all of a sudden the ILBs and secondary get abused for big plays.

Not really buying this. I think we've got to be fair and see how 2014 turns out (should Golson get back). Kelly has had to use Dayne Crist, Tommy Rees, and RS-Freshman Everett Golson. Not exactly the type of guys a coach is able to set records with (and yet they have).

People said the same thing ("this offense is so boring/bad") about Jim Tressel when he didn't have Maurice Clarett (he posted 7-5 and 8-4 seasons that the OSU nuthuggers forget about). Then his quarterbacks got rolling in year five and they dominated the Big Ten.

I'm glad Swarbrick has more patience than the members on this board.

 

[IrishLax]

I respect your opinions TP, and we are in a better place since 2009, but can you honestly say that this is where you expected to be four years in? I saw that you sent a tweet yesterday that Rome was not built overnight, but we are four years in. Look at the success that others have had in that time period: Saban, Meyer, Shaw, Chip Kelly, Dabo, Fisher (FSU), Sumlin (although he has the best QB in the country). There is a long list of these coaches that built it a lot quicker than Kelly has. I understand we played in the BCSNCG last year, but we were a few plays away from being 9-3 (yes...we made the plays and were 12-0...bounces are part of the game). The consistency that he preached when he got here is not evident, and the development he talked about isn't necessarily happening either. Four years in we STILL can't get a DB to turn their head on a fade route.

Just to expound on this for a second... every single one of those coaches cheats except for Shaw. And Shaw didn't build it, Harbaugh did. Really... Harbaugh is the illustration of what you want. He took a freaking 1-11 team and built them into a sustainable winner by recruiting his version of "RKGs" and being a hard ***/great coach. That's what we have to expect from coaches we hire at ND. If you can win at Stanford, you can win here. If you're not, you're doing something wrong.

Saban oversigns/JUCOs/has players taking money, Meyer is as sleazy and dirty as it gets, Chip Kelly is currently serving an 18-month show cause for breaking the rules, Dabo runs a Clemson program that is the most brazen pay-for-play program out there, FSU has been embroiled in scandals for illegal benefits for as long as I can remember and they pulled some shaaaaady business with Lynch, Sumlin at Texas A&M... I don't even need to expound on that. The only program that is a sustainable winner without obviously breaking rules is Stanford. So we either have to use that model OR we need to start breaking rules when dealing with the diva 5 types from around the country that illicit $$$ from bag men.

I think most would agree that the way to go is Stanford, not full SEC/Ohio State/USC/Clemson/etc. But either way, enough excuses on why you're not there yet.

 

[gkIrish]

The issue isn't whether BK should be our coach or not. You don't get a new coach after appearing in the championship game. Especially since we would have likely played and beat Ohio State if they didn't make the terrible decision to take a bowl ban in 2012 instead of 2011.

The issue is whether BK is too stubborn to make the necessary changes alluded to in this thread and others, upgrading the staff being the most important at this point. If he refuses to make the necessary changes next season, then the question becomes, is there a better replacement available that would want to coach here? I don't know the answer to that and I hope we never have to figure it out.

I have faith that BK is the right guy but I'm worried about our progress. I need to see this team with Golson at the helm before I can pass final judgment.

 

[Buster Bluth]

The issue is whether BK is too stubborn to make the necessary changes alluded to in this thread and others, upgrading the staff being the most important at this point. If he refuses to make the necessary changes next season, then the question becomes, is there a better replacement available that would want to coach here? I don't know the answer to that and I hope we never have to figure it out.

What kind of changes?

 

[IrishLax]

Player retention != recruiting. This staff got guys like Lynch/Prestwood on campus. "They should have looked at different guys then!" Maybe. I think it's fair to say Kelly and his staff learned a lot about what it takes to succeed at Notre Dame and took a different and better approach in 2013.

Sure it does. You choose to recruit who you recruit. You sign Aaron Lynch full well knowing he has maturity problems. You sign borderline academic kids knowing full well how hard Notre Dame is academically.

If you're recruiting kids who don't fit the mold and wash out after a year (or less) that's on you. They learned their lesson in 2012 after that class was a disaster. They went after lots of kids who were high talent, low fit... and it blew up in their faces. I have to hold them accountable for that, and that's why they have a C+. Average classes ranking around ~#10 would get a B+ from me. Average class in the top 5 would get an A. Having the average class rank somewhere in the 20s is C+ territory, IMO.

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

The issue isn't whether BK should be our coach or not. You don't get a new coach after appearing in the championship game. Especially since we would have likely played and beat Ohio State if they didn't make the terrible decision to take a bowl ban in 2012 instead of 2011.

The issue is whether BK is too stubborn to make the necessary changes alluded to in this thread and others, upgrading the staff being the most important at this point. If he refuses to make the necessary changes next season, then the question becomes, is there a better replacement available that would want to coach here? I don't know the answer to that and I hope we never have to figure it out.

I have faith that BK is the right guy but I'm worried about our progress. I need to see this team with Golson at the helm before I can pass final judgment.

Upgrading the staff?? Who? I'm guessing you are referring to Martin.

 

[SaltyND24]

That is such a BS argument. Did we suspend Floyd for any games after his 3rd alcohol offense? We don't live in a glass house...can't throw stones.

A ticket for underage consumption, in my book, is child's play...The DUI is an issue, I'll give you that...which he was suspended for by not being allowed to take part in spring ball...If he hadn't done all the things required of him by BK, Floyd WOULD HAVE missed games...

Also, I'm beginning to think that the single worse thing for our program was making it to the National Championship game last season. When Golson was first kicked out, many of the same people who are questioning the state of our football program immediately said this season would be rough...What the f*ck happened? We knew the season we had last year was going to be even more difficult to repeat, even with Golson as our QB...With our schedule, how in the world is it reasonable to EXPECT a 10-11 win season. Deep down yall had to have known this would be an 8-9 win season. To those on the ledge, step off of it...To those whom have already jumped off...BYE FELICIA

 

[gkIrish]

What kind of changes?

Basically those referenced by Lax. Changing the way we recruit, bringing in someone who can call plays, fixing our inability to start games strong, and figuring out how to blow out teams more consistently. Blowouts = rest for the starters and PT for young guys. We shouldn't be squeaking by Purdue, ever.

Upgrading the staff?? Who? I'm guessing you are referring to Martin.

Yeah Martin basically. But everyone needs some close evaluation.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Sure it does. You choose to recruit who you recruit. You sign Aaron Lynch full well knowing he has maturity problems. You sign borderline academic kids knowing full well how hard Notre Dame is academically.

Lynch was the #9 player in the country. Are you saying he wasn't worth a shot? According to 247 they took five DEs in 2011, it's not like they placed all of their eggs in the Lynch basket.

I think the Kelly model has been to try and bring in depth across the board and take fringe five-star guys who will put the program over the top should they make it. Stoops wanted those exceptions, Kelly is taking this smarter route.

Look at the Bryant situation (and I don't think he has maturity problems or whatever), should he leave Notre Dame still has an apparent keeper in Folston (and others), but if he stays and turns out to be a stud, it's a win.

That's been the biggest difference between Weis and Kelly. Kelly is not trying to take depth risks with fringe guys.

Prestwood is the only guy to leave the program for obvious grade problems since Kelly started, right? Doesn't seem to me like it's a real problem. It's just going to happen. This program runs on taking guys who couldn't get in anyway and giving them enough discipline and tutoring to graduate, no? That type of situation, which has worked wonderfully, fill not pass 100% of guys.

 

[Irish#1]

THen get rid of NBC and all the national crap. ND is football first to most people. And I doubt some of the guys we recruit come to ND to enjoy South Bend and a great education.

Hell then lets just throw away everything that Notre Dame stands for and join the SEC. You can issue their diplomas out of the back seat of your car.

 

[Buster Bluth]

We shouldn't be squeaking by Purdue, ever.

I'm not sure that's realistic. It's college football. Ohio State has played within a touchdown of those guys three out of the last four years, and five out of the last decade. So, half the time the team that runs a train on the conference plays them, it's a squeaker.

 

[irishfan]

I've complained about Kelly quite a bit this week, but I think its funny that despite all the bitching, a win this week and a much needed bye week would do wonders for this board. Not to mention that we would then be favored in the next 5 games, and most of us would be expecting 9-2 heading into Stanford.

 

[gkIrish]

I'm not sure that's realistic. It's college football. Ohio State has played within a touchdown of those guys three out of the last four years, and five out of the last decade. So, half the time the team that runs a train on the conference plays them, it's a squeaker.

If it's not possible then we need to schedule teams where it is possible. Our schedule is always too difficult. We need to schedule more Eastern Michigans and less Purdues. The only teams we should have absolute loyalty to are Navy and USC. I could care less about playing Michigan State and Purdue every single year.

But I digress. Scheduling isn't really in Kelly's hands.

 

[tussin]

Player retention != recruiting. This staff got guys like Lynch/Prestwood on campus. "They should have looked at different guys then!" Maybe. I think it's fair to say Kelly and his staff learned a lot about what it takes to succeed at Notre Dame and took a different and better approach in 2013.

I think they probably swung for the fences too much in 2012, but they rebounded in 2013. You're counting on something that hasn't happened (Bryant leaving) to knock that class, sorta weak logic.

I don't think 2014 is average either, and Notre Dame is still in on many elite recruits.

I think it's often silly to look at class rankings when Kelly and Co so obviously want the supreme athletes and/or who aren't necessarily playing their college position. You just have to take that into account.

Finally, this staff has won recruiting battles against Ohio State, Southern Cal, Penn State, Texas, Oklahoma, etc etc etc. They win on the recruiting trail more often than you're giving credit for.

Player retention has everything to do with recruiting. If you can't keep the majority of the top of your class for even one year then that reflects the recruiting process. Not sure if Kelly is doing a poor job communicating the realities of life at ND or just telling recruits what they want to hear until they get on campus, but something is off.

IMO, ND needs to refocus on getting the top talent in the mid-west and east coast. IMO, most (excluding GK) of these **** show recruiting debacles / retention problems happen when ND tries to extend its presence and get involved in recruiting battles the West Coast and SEC country. Take a cue from OSU, focus on dominating the backyard and take a kid from outside your sweetspot only if they are all-in on ND from the start. The West Coast kids that waver back and forth until NSD usually don't have productive careers at ND.

Without having hard data on every top program, I'd be hard-pressed to think of another program that has as many issues with player retention on ND.

Not really buying this. I think we've got to be fair and see how 2014 turns out (should Golson get back). Kelly has had to use Dayne Crist, Tommy Rees, and RS-Freshman Everett Golson. Not exactly the type of guys a coach is able to set records with (and yet they have).

People said the same thing ("this offense is so boring/bad") about Jim Tressel when he didn't have Maurice Clarett (he posted 7-5 and 8-4 seasons that the OSU nuthuggers forget about). Then his quarterbacks got rolling in year five and they dominated the Big Ten.

I'm glad Swarbrick has more patience than the members on this board.

I understand what you are saying, but Kelly once turned Tony Pike and Zach Collaros into gamechangers. His Cinci offense used to be so exciting to watch. Where did that type of play calling go? It makes no sense to me.

 

[tussin]

Lynch was the #9 player in the country. Are you saying he wasn't worth a shot? According to 247 they took five DEs in 2011, it's not like they placed all of their eggs in the Lynch basket.

I think the Kelly model has been to try and bring in depth across the board and take fringe five-star guys who will put the program over the top should they make it. Stoops wanted those exceptions, Kelly is taking this smarter route.

Look at the Bryant situation (and I don't think he has maturity problems or whatever), should he leave Notre Dame still has an apparent keeper in Folston (and others), but if he stays and turns out to be a stud, it's a win.

That's been the biggest difference between Weis and Kelly. Kelly is not trying to take depth risks with fringe guys.

Prestwood is the only guy to leave the program for obvious grade problems since Kelly started, right? Doesn't seem to me like it's a real problem. It's just going to happen. This program runs on taking guys who couldn't get in anyway and giving them enough discipline and tutoring to graduate, no? That type of situation, which has worked wonderfully, fill not pass 100% of guys.

The only issue that arises then is the fact that all these departing players are roster spots. They effectively shrink ND's class size, thus creating depth issues and giving Kelly one less player to develop. If 2-3 players depart every year, that's a big group of players that could be developed into difference makers.

 

[PANDFAN]

I've complained about Kelly quite a bit this week, but I think its funny that despite all the bitching, a win this week and a much needed bye week would do wonders for this board. Not to mention that we would then be favored in the next 5 games, and most of us would be expecting 9-2 heading into Stanford.

i think the big thing has been the bad taste of the ncg/lack luster performances against lesser teams and losses to both teams we needed to win a "statement win"...def need some positives to get us rolling into the bye week prior to usc

 

[Irish#1]

Player retention has everything to do with recruiting. If you can't keep the majority of the top of your class for even one year then that reflects the recruiting process. Not sure if Kelly is doing a poor job communicating the realities of life at ND or just telling recruits what they want to hear until they get on campus, but something is off.

IMO, ND needs to refocus on getting the top talent in the mid-west and east coast. IMO, most (excluding GK) of these **** show recruiting debacles / retention problems happen when ND tries to extend its presence and get involved in recruiting battles the West Coast and SEC country. Take a cue from OSU, focus on dominating the backyard and take a kid from outside your sweetspot only if they are all-in on ND from the start. The West Coast kids that waver back and forth until NSD usually don't have productive careers at ND.

Without having hard data on every top program, I'd be hard-pressed to think of another program that has as many issues with player retention on ND.




I understand what you are saying, but Kelly once turned Tony Pike and Zach Collaros into gamechangers. His Cinci offense used to be so exciting to watch. Where did that type of play calling go? It makes no sense to me.

It's called playing on a bigger stage, where everyone is watching every week. Where the loyal alumni throw away more money in a week than the wealthiest boosters at UC make in a year. I could go on and on, but you get my point.

 

[tussin]

It's called playing on a bigger stage, where everyone is watching every week. Where the loyal alumni throw away more money in a week than the wealthiest boosters at UC make in a year. I could go on and on, but you get my point.

That may be true. If so, it just shows another reason Kelly may not be the best guy for this job. The only reason he is at ND is because of those Cinci offenses. Also, what right minded alumni would be throwing money to see THIS offense?

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Well....... Mack Brown still has a job, so you can't count him............. yet!

Zook averaged 7-5. That's one game over .500.

Solich, on the other hand, averaged 9-3, for his six seasons. I would say he is a good example. But that was also 10 years ago.

That's far from "many".

All that is true, but unfortunately it has nothing to do with my point that Texas, USC, Michigan, Florida, and Alabama pretty much expect 10-win seasons semi-frequently. #disconnect

 

[BGIF]

We may need to give you a history lesson. Lou rebuilt coming off a run where he went 64-9-1. Again, he was 64-9-1...not 28-11 like Kelly is. Holtz also followed that up with a 9 win and an 8 win season and would have kept coaching, and winning, had it not been for an idiot at AD (I was on campus, I can say that).

You can't sit there and tell me Kelly has to "rebuild" after one 10+ win season. If that is the case, then we really have issues with development, recruiting, and retention.

When you give a lesson by comparing things isn't it appropriate to compare things on the same basis?

I pointed out the '94 season (when you were on campus) because that disaster followed a one loss year. Kelly's 12-1 year was a cornerstone for your argument.

I noted that Holtz was in his 9th season. He was't still having to overcome the shortcomings of his predecessor, was he?

You responded with Holtz was 64-9-1 while Kelly is 25-11. Holtz did that in years 3 through 8 NOT the 1 through 3 you used for Kelly. On a similar basis of the first 3 years, Holtz was 25-10 while Kelly was, OMG, 28-11! Kelly has the higher winning percentage at .718 to .714.

After going 64-9-1 or .872 in his glory years, Holtz fell 23-11 in his next 3 seasons or .676.

After Kelly going 12-1 in his glory year, Kelly is now 3-2 or .667. Wow .009 difference.


I'm not saying Kelly is as good as Holtz. I'm saying your response was BS!


WakeUpEchoes asked what were your expectation for this season after Golson took himself out. You responded:

Given all the talk that people had on here and elsewhere, I expected a 9 to 10 win season. Mainly because I thought our defense would be dominant.

N.B. Emphasis added.

"9 or 10" because people "oversold" you. The consensus here was 8-4. Once again it solds like you overbought.

And 8 would be soooo far from your 9. Sigh.


Looking back. I don't recall anyone in 2010 proclaiming Kelly was the next Rockne, Leahy, Parshegian, Devine, or Holtz. To the contrary many noted while he had an outstanding winning precentage it was all done at small time programs. He didn't got undefeated at BC, win at ASU, or ARK. Grand Valley State, Directional School Michigan, and Big Least's Cinncinati didn't face a diet of Michigan, Southern Cal, and other formidable programs.

There were people who questioned seriously if he was as good as his mediocre predecessors.

There was also serious concern about his recruiting, he was on a national stage now not the greater metro area.


He won 12 games last year and most knowledgable fans realize there were several close games there and now Manti, KLM, Eifert and a number of other key players were gone. Then there was Golson.


Overbought not oversold.

 

[NDohio]

That may be true. If so, it just shows another reason Kelly may not be the best guy for this job. The only reason he is at ND is because of those Cinci offenses. Also, what right minded alumni would be throwing money to see THIS offense?

I would disagree with this. The reason BK is at Notre Dame is because he built programs. His success prior to Cinci made him a very good candidate, what he did in Cinci was way more than about the offense. There were stadium upgrades, training room upgrades, his relationship with the alumni clubs, establishing great relationships with the HS coaches in Cinci, etc.

One of his most shrewd moves there was that he convinced the AD to not allow people to buy season tickets to the basketball games unless they also bought season tickets to the football games. He instantly raised more money for the program as well as increased attendance on Saturdays.

His offense was at Cinci was not why he got the job.

 

[Booslum31]

I'm disappointed in this thread. Kelly is soooo much better than anything we had since Holtz and I don't think we've seen the best he has to give yet. We could easily be undefeated right now had Golson not had issues...even with the defense struggling to find itself. We are lucky to have him...big time!

 

[PANDFAN]

That may be true. If so, it just shows another reason Kelly may not be the best guy for this job. The only reason he is at ND is because of those Cinci offenses. Also, what right minded alumni would be throwing money to see THIS offense?

completely untrue...swarbrick had a list of things that he wanted in searching for a head coach...his main focus as he stated was that he wanted a coach with college head coaching experience and success at building/maintaining a program


Cinci also played in the big east which have smaller defenses which he can recruit smaller but faster players..this is a big difference i see in ND compared to other schools is that we play a variety of schools from different conferences which put us in a disadvantage because we can't focus on just an offense or just a defense...

 

[tussin]

I would disagree with this. The reason BK is at Notre Dame is because he built programs. His success prior to Cinci made him a very good candidate, what he did in Cinci was way more than about the offense. There were stadium upgrades, training room upgrades, his relationship with the alumni clubs, establishing great relationships with the HS coaches in Cinci, etc.

One of his most shrewd moves there was that he convinced the AD to not allow people to buy season tickets to the basketball games unless they also bought season tickets to the football games. He instantly raised more money for the program as well as increased attendance on Saturdays.

His offense was at Cinci was not why he got the job.

He was there for 3 years and never saw a full recruiting cycle. He may have made shrewd business moves, Mark Dantonio had as much to do with that programs long term success as Kelly.

He built and maintained GVSU. Nowhere else.