ND Oversold on Kelly?

[BGIF]

Nick Saban (while tapping his rings on the table)....

Nick Saban wouldn't be allowed to bring in 130 recruits in 4 years at ND, would he Pat?

Nick Saban wouldn't be allowed to bring his JUCOs in at ND, would he Pat?

Nick Saban wouldn't be allowed to get half his players past ND Admissions, would he Pat?


Those are just three of the reasons Urban Meyer turned down ND. (He can tap on the table with an NC ring as well.)

 

[irishpat183]

That to me is a good season. How many teams have even been in the championship in the past 5 yrs. Like 5 teams and we are one.

I will strongly disagree with you here...10 wins is a fantastic season for me. I will take ten wins every year. And I guess that was my expectation from last year moving forward. I didn't think we would have to "rebuild" so quickly.

10 wins aint bad...but, again, at this point....I want titles and big bowl wins. We've had neither in a very long time

I just don't see how any ND fan can be happy with anything less than a title at this point

 

[Luckylucci]

Nick Saban wouldn't be allowed to bring in 130 recruits in 4 years at ND, would he Pat?

Nick Saban wouldn't be allowed to bring his JUCOs in at ND, would he Pat?

Nick Saban wouldn't be allowed to get half his players past ND Admissions, would he Pat?


Those are just three of the reasons Urban Meyer turned down ND. (He can tap on the table with an NC ring as well.)

Exactly! We can't nor should we compare ourselves to those programs. We proudly have different values.

 

[Rocket 94]

The standard needs to be where Holtz was in terms of big bowls wins. He went to 9 straight New Year's Day bowls and was 5-4 with wins in the Fiesta, Cotton (2), Orange and Sugar Bowls.

Starting next year if they don't make the four team playoff then at least one of the bowls like the Orange, Sugar, Rose, Chick fila, Cotton or Fiesta Bowl and win it. If Kelly starts that roll then all is right in the world. He needs Golson back next year and it would help if Tuitt was back as well.

Think we can potentially make the four team playoff in 2015 with Golson as a senior.

 

[irishpat183]

Nick Saban wouldn't be allowed to bring in 130 recruits in 4 years at ND, would he Pat?

Nick Saban wouldn't be allowed to bring his JUCOs in at ND, would he Pat?

Nick Saban wouldn't be allowed to get half his players past ND Admissions, would he Pat?


Those are just three of the reasons Urban Meyer turned down ND. (He can tap on the table with an NC ring as well.)

Well played.

Still a much better coach than BK, but I suppose it's no matter if he can't fit in at ND.

 

[ulukinatme]

Nick Saban (while tapping his rings on the table)....

For one, we'd never get Saban. He's not going to leave Alabama to come here under any circumstance. He doesn't fit what we do here. He wouldn't be able to employ all his methods either (4 year scholarships being one).

BK is the best guy for the job. We're struggling a bit right now, but he's got the right approach as far as trying to build the defense up and trying to move this offense to a more mobile QB (This year it couldn't be helped). People complain that BK was supposed to be an offensive minded coach, but he's stated that when he came to ND he knew that flashy offense wasn't going to win games with our schedule. He knew he had to make defense a priority, and we've seen some improvement over the years there. We're not solid, but it's getting better than where we were.

 

[woolybug25]

I guess I'm just at a point where I want wins on the field. I get what ND is all about...but at some point, with all of our supposed "advantages"...I want championships or at the very least, big bowl wins.

Being 10-2 with a bowl loss, to me, is not a good season.

Then you need to go root for another team.

Seriously, no team has been able to sustain that kind of success (compete for a title every year) for a long time. Bama has been doing it for 3 seasons, before Saban, they were a dumpster fire.

I'm so sick of fans like you. Your expectations are too high for any program, any coach or any players. Just go be a fan of Bama and then switch to whatever team has the next big success. Because if you are going to hate on the team this much, we don't need you.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Aka Jeff Quinn. You cannot win without an offense. This defense would be much much better if the offense actually sustained drives and didn't go 3 and out so much.

yep......Time of Possession ranking this year has swung roughly 50 spots from last year.

 

[Luckylucci]

Then you need to go root for another team.

Seriously, no team has been able to sustain that kind of success (compete for a title every year) for a long time. Bama has been doing it for 3 seasons, before Saban, they were a dumpster fire.

I'm so sick of fans like you. Your expectations are too high for any program, any coach or any players. Just go be a fan of Bama and then switch to whatever team has the next big success. Because if you are going to hate on the team this much, we don't need you.

Reps!

 

[CarrollVermin]

Then you need to go root for another team.

Seriously, no team has been able to sustain that kind of success (compete for a title every year) for a long time. Bama has been doing it for 3 seasons, before Saban, they were a dumpster fire.

I'm so sick of fans like you. Your expectations are too high for any program, any coach or any players. Just go be a fan of Bama and then switch to whatever team has the next big success. Because if you are going to hate on the team this much, we don't need you.

I would disagree, and don't question my fan hood simply because you disagree with my stance and view of the program. You don't "need" fans like me is as stupid a statement that anyone has ever made. If there wasn't a system of checks and balances or accountability, we would dive off into a socialist regime. Come at me with something better than that.

I don't think it is unrealistic to have those expectations. 9 wins plus is a standard at many programs, and when they fall below those expectations, coaches get run. The list of teams that have consistently achieved those levels of success is higher then you think. But, I guess I am not a "good fan" for having expectations of someone we pay millions of dollars and throw money at a sport that as of yet has not delivered on its goods.

 

[CarrollVermin]

Then you need to go root for another team.

Seriously, no team has been able to sustain that kind of success (compete for a title every year) for a long time. Bama has been doing it for 3 seasons, before Saban, they were a dumpster fire.

I'm so sick of fans like you. Your expectations are too high for any program, any coach or any players. Just go be a fan of Bama and then switch to whatever team has the next big success. Because if you are going to hate on the team this much, we don't need you.

While I am at it...I am tired of fans like you. Always grasping for an excuse instead of holding people accountable for their inabilities or lack of action. That is what is wrong with America...we give kids a ribbon for participating and pat them on the back for trying. This is a multi-billion dollar industry and there are expectations that come with the investments made in coaches, facilities, and the like. If you want to cheer for a team that under-performs and wins 8 games a year and every one is happy, then maybe you need to find another team to cheer for.

 

[Cackalacky]

I have a hard time believing people cannot see the trees for the forest.
1. Our starting QB f'ed up.
2. All of our leadership from last year graduated and no one has stepped up.
3. We are down to like 75 scholarship players due to injuries, retirements, transfers, and whatever other crazy BS that happened last year with recruits.
4. This was the year we were supposed to have depth across the board. We very well could have a "2012 USC" year this year because of #3.
5. We have played 15 or more freshmen this year but not the one's everyone wants.
6. The infrastructure of the program is at its highest level I can remember since Holtz and that was before recruiting rules changed.
7. When was the last time we had 4 consecutive winning seasons and a undefeated regular season?

 

[BGIF]

I will strongly disagree with you here...10 wins is a fantastic season for me. I will take ten wins every year. And I guess that was my expectation from last year moving forward. I didn't think we would have to "rebuild" so quickly.

Did you really think Calabrese or Fox were going to step in seamlessly for Te'o? Seven Ints versus flailing arms while screaming in desperation "somebody get my man?"


You really though Niklas with half a dozen career catches was going to match Eifert's 60? Or we're you dazzled by Koyack's one career catch?


You really thought the 5 man "nobody is #1 RB" committee was going to match Seniors Wood's and Riddick's performances?


You really though Rees for all his intestinal fortitude was going to suddenly run like Golson?


You really thought Nick Martin was going to step in seamlessly for a 3 year Leader at Center?


I'm sorry your overinflated expectations haven't been met.


Just because you overbought doesn't mean anyone oversold.

 

[Rocket 94]

CarrolVermin,

WoolyBug makes a good point. No program is going to sustain itself where a championship appearance or even contending for one will be an every year instance. What Alabama is doing now is something ND did from 1943 to 1949 and will not be duplicated again most likely at ND. I believe Jack Swarbrick once said that if you contend for a BCS bowl appearance two out of every five years then the program is healthy. That is the expectation at ND now.

Unfortunately our hopes for another BCS game went down the toilet when Golson was suspended.

 

[Emcee77]

I have a hard time believing people cannot see the trees for the forest.
1. Our starting QB f'ed up.
2. All of our leadership from last year graduated and no one has stepped up.
3. We are down to like 75 scholarship players due to injuries, retirements, transfers, and whatever other crazy BS that happened last year with recruits.
4. This was the year we were supposed to have depth across the board. We very well could have a "2012 USC" year this year because of #3.
5. We have played 15 or more freshmen this year but not the one's everyone wants.
6. The infrastructure of the program is at its highest level I can remember since Holtz and that was before recruiting rules changed.
7. When was the last time we had 4 consecutive winning seasons and a undefeated regular season?

And I say church ... PREACH.

I agree. I don't know why more people don't look at it like this. We are coming off an 8-10 year period in which our program was a complete dumpster fire (though Brady Quinn and Jeff Samardzija and some of our other talented guys in '05 and '06 masked the problem). We are in such great shape now, by comparison and objectively, that I have a hard time being dissatisfied. If Kelly gets a full stable of his QBs (i.e., Golson/Zaire/Kizer), and we are still 8-4, then I'll entertain the idea of making a change. Right now, impatience just looks like petulance. Everybody chill out.

 

[CarrollVermin]

Did you really think Calabrese or Fox were going to step in seamlessly for Te'o? Seven Ints versus flailing arms while screaming in desperation "somebody get my man?"


You really though Niklas with half a dozen career catches was going to match Eifert's 60? Or we're you dazzled by Koyack's one career catch?


You really thought the 5 man "nobody is #1 RB" committee was going to match Seniors Wood's and Riddick's performances?


You really though Rees for all his intestinal fortitude was going to suddenly run like Golson?


You really thought Nick Martin was going to step in seamlessly for a 3 year Leader at Center?


I'm sorry your overinflated expectations haven't been met.


Just because you overbought doesn't mean anyone oversold.

That goes to my point on player development. Honest question...if you are developing the younger talent do you see that sort of drop off from one year to the next? I understand the QB situation, but the rest?

 

[NDWorld247]

Our offensive line is a train wreck, as we can't move the ball, and the guy that should be coaching that position is sitting with an undefeated OSU team one state over.

Are you serious? We just ran the ball for 220 yards on Saturday. Also, you're the first person I've seen that thinks Warinner > Hiestand.

 

[BGIF]

yep......Time of Possession ranking this year has swung roughly 50 spots from last year.

Isn't Time of Possession also impacted by how many 3 and outs your defense produces?

By the way how is ND's defense doing on Take Aways, also a TOP factor?

 

[CarrollVermin]

CarrolVermin,

WoolyBug makes a good point. No program is going to sustain itself where a championship appearance or even contending for one will be an every year instance. What Alabama is doing now is something ND did from 1943 to 1949 and will not be duplicated again most likely at ND. I believe Jack Swarbrick once said that if you contend for a BCS bowl appearance two out of every five years then the program is healthy. That is the expectation at ND now.

Unfortunately our hopes for another BCS game went down the toilet when Golson was suspended.

I see his point, but disagree with the consistency portion of it. I will preface this by saying I am not a fan of any of these teams...but Stanford, Oregon, LSU, UGA (had a dip there, but played for SEC Championships consistently), Alabama (outlier...I get it), Ohio State, Florida (until Urban went nuts), South Carolina (under Spurrier once he got that thing rolling), have all had runs of consistency in the last few years...no fewer than 8 wins and usually double digit wins. I think that its not as difficult when you have the right person in place.

Some argue they sold their souls to the devil, not out to say they do or don't, but it can be done in the modern era.

 

[Luckylucci]

Are you serious? We just ran the ball for 220 yards on Saturday. Also, you're the first person I've seen that thinks Warinner > Hiestand.

Thats the problem, its hard to take it seriously when things are said that make no sense. Like Northwestern is a better program than ND. Maybe this year but do some homework 5 games doesnt make a program.

Northwestern 2010 7-5, 2011 6-6, 2012 9-3. ND 8-5, 8-5, 12-1

 

[CarrollVermin]

Are you serious? We just ran the ball for 220 yards on Saturday. Also, you're the first person I've seen that thinks Warinner > Hiestand.

Ranked 92nd in rushing offense. 88th in Total Offense.

Rushing Offense - NCAA.com

 

[Luckylucci]

I see his point, but disagree with the consistency portion of it. I will preface this by saying I am not a fan of any of these teams...but Stanford, Oregon, LSU, UGA (had a dip there, but played for SEC Championships consistently), Alabama (outlier...I get it), Ohio State, Florida (until Urban went nuts), South Carolina (under Spurrier once he got that thing rolling), have all had runs of consistency in the last few years...no fewer than 8 wins and usually double digit wins. I think that its not as difficult when you have the right person in place.

Some argue they sold their souls to the devil, not out to say they do or don't, but it can be done in the modern era.

Again only one of those teams has the same circumstances that ND does. Do you really think that any of the others would have suspended their NCG QB for academics, seriously?

 

[CarrollVermin]

Again only one of those teams has the same circumstances that ND does. Do you really think that any of the others would have suspended their NCG QB for academics, seriously?

That is such a BS argument. Did we suspend Floyd for any games after his 3rd alcohol offense? We don't live in a glass house...can't throw stones.

 

[Luckylucci]

Right, I see that I have to add to my ignore list now. Keep complaining to complain. Everybody will always listen.

 

[CarrollVermin]

Right, I see that I have to add to my ignore list now. Keep complaining to complain. Everybody will always listen.

Not complaining to complain. That's the issue. Why do we run from these discussions? It should be healthy to take a look at where we are and measure our performance. I would be happy to temper my expectations of Kelly, but he can't sit there and tell me his expectations are to play in BCS games and play for Championships. Tell me we aim for 7 or 8 win seasons with an occasional run at a title, and I can adjust to that.

 

[BGIF]

That goes to my point on player development. Honest question...if you are developing the younger talent do you see that sort of drop off from one year to the next? I understand the QB situation, but the rest?

Yes, you do until they develop. Eifert was a pass catching machine in HS. Niklas was a starting LB at ND. How many years did Nick Martin play at center before this year? He was even the first choice to replace Cave. GA III demonstrated Saturday what he is capable of but did you expect it every game?

Holtz reloaded because he had players on his THREE deep that could start today. But when Vinny Cerrato's players were gone, he had to rebuild. I gather you didn't see Holtz's '94, '95, and '96 teams.

 

[kmoose]

9 wins plus is a standard at many programs, and when they fall below those expectations, coaches get run.

Like where?

 

[CarrollVermin]

Yes, you do until they develop. Eifert was a pass catching machine in HS. Niklas was a starting LB at ND. How many years did Nick Martin play at center before this year? He was even the first choice to replace Cave. GA III demonstrated Saturday what he is capable of but did you expect it every game?

Holtz reloaded because he had players on his THREE deep that could start today. But when Vinny Cerrato's players were gone, he had to rebuild. I gather you didn't see Holtz's '94, '95, and '96 teams.

I was on campus for those...ha.

 

[enrico514]

No coach is perfect but I have to say that, IMHO, BK has been doing a remarkable job at ND. Anyone who thinks that Satan or Meyer would be doing better are kidding themselves. They would both be lost given the constraints found at ND compared to where they have been in the past.

That being said I think BK needs to do better in terms of: 1- Having a couple of QBs that he can work with (this should be corrected starting next year); 2- Keeping 5 star talent in the program (I'm giving him a break on this one but if the trend of the last couple years continues it will become worrisome - we need these guys to win a NC); 3- Figure out who your RBs are as 5 RB rotations don't work (this is nonsense and a waste of talent); 4- Blowing out opponents (this allows us to get guys experience quicker and see what we have) & 5- He needs to start playing to win and not to lose (I'm hoping that we see this next year)

 

[Irish Houstonian]

I see his point, but disagree with the consistency portion of it. I will preface this by saying I am not a fan of any of these teams...but Stanford, Oregon, LSU, UGA (had a dip there, but played for SEC Championships consistently), Alabama (outlier...I get it), Ohio State, Florida (until Urban went nuts), South Carolina (under Spurrier once he got that thing rolling), have all had runs of consistency in the last few years...no fewer than 8 wins and usually double digit wins. I think that its not as difficult when you have the right person in place.

Some argue they sold their souls to the devil, not out to say they do or don't, but it can be done in the modern era.

I see your point, but ND's schedule and academic requirements are just different. I really don't think Les Miles or Richt would be doing a better job had they been hired three years ago.

That said, in terms of being "oversold", I think it's safe to say that Kelly has not developed the offense as well as many thought he would, a la Cincinnati. They saw Tony Pike, Zach Collaros and Marty Gilyard run track meets and thought 'well, if he can do it there, imagine what he'll do at ND!!!'

But that has yet to happen. In fact, we don't even really have an offensive identity. And you can blame Kelly's short tenure at ND, but remember, he only had 3 years at Cincinnati too.