NASA's Space Submarine

dshans

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Tooting around in methane would mean a ready supply of fuel.
 

BeauBenken

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How do we get it there? We crash land.

Things are so much easier without having to worry about human lives.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

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Just as long as they don't put rocket thrusters on it.
 

Henges24

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I just read about this on an app called Flipboard. Very cool stuff.

I highly recommend the app to everyone.
 

Rhode Irish

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How do we get it there? We crash land.

Things are so much easier without having to worry about human lives.

Yes, but we might freak out the poor Saturnites who are just hanging out in their methane sea, minding their own business.
 

MNIrishman

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Tooting around in methane would mean a ready supply of fuel.

Not quite true. You need an oxidizer, which I don't think is readily available in Titan's seas. Most likely, such a device would utilize a radioisotope thermoelectric generator, basically a small nuclear power generator (but very different from what is found in a nuclear reactor). That's what keeps Voyager running even though it's way the heck out there, beyond any meaningful solar radiation.
 

dshans

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Thanks for the info, MNmick.

'Twas a sly, wry comment it was. Perhaps "tooting" with regard to methane was a bit too sly?!

You're never too old to learn, even when not understanding a damn thing ...
 

BGIF

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Thanks for the info, MNmick.

'Twas a sly, wry comment it was. Perhaps "tooting" with regard to methane was a bit too sly?!

You're never too old to learn, even when not understanding a damn thing ...


Tooting in your v-neck shirt?
 

MNIrishman

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Thanks for the info, MNmick.

'Twas a sly, wry comment it was. Perhaps "tooting" with regard to methane was a bit too sly?!

You're never too old to learn, even when not understanding a damn thing ...

Since your word choices tend to the esoteric, I admit this one flew right over my head. Whoops!
 

dshans

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Since your word choices tend to the esoteric, I admit this one flew right over my head. Whoops!

I aim to please but tend to confuse ...

I'm an olio of whim, fancy and stream of consciousness. With a few other quirks tossed in.
 

Old Man Mike

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Titan is theorized to be a huge "leftover" from the dense "cometary stage" of solar system formation, and probably composed of cometary materials like those in today's Oort Belt. That would mean that it has a core of nickel-iron and rocky matter [the two commonest comet types], surrounded by some water ice. The atmosphere is heavily Nitrogen, with a couple of percent hydrocarbon [almost all Methane but dashed with Ethane].

The temperatures are cold enough to get Methane/Ethane rain. These rains should accumulate in seas. The seas may have some water ice, but mainly hydrocarbon. When the sunlight hits the Methane in the atmosphere it should split some molecules and Titan's orangey color should result.

Carl Sagan was always trying to push for NASA funds by speculating on possible life reservoirs here in the Solar System [while violently opposing UFO research --- while secretly being fascinated by it, as I personally know]. His view of Titan was that the ultraviolet light impacts on the hydrocarbon atmosphere and maybe the sea of Titan might be biogenic. He and a colleague did closed glass atmosphere studies irradiating "Titan-atmosphere-like" gases and were able to produce globs of goo. This goo was a complex hydrocarbon mixture called tholins, but without the nitrogen added in [in key areas] it was not "on the road" to life.

Sagan had two motivations for his research: 1). fascinate the public so they'd write congressmen to support the space program [there was a republican cost-cutting bill not long ago for instance to actually zero NASA out, thankfully that didn't "float", but NASA has been under regular assault as an unproductive element of the US economy, so advocates like Sagan were necessary]; and 2). get himself elected into the National Academy of Sciences (Carl had quite an ego, but the NAS considered more of a media personage than a fundamental researcher).

He failed at his second goal, maybe because his Cornell colleague did most of the lab work and everybody knew it --- I don't know if he later squeaked in somehow, but Tholins didn't do it. But he pretty much succeeded at his first goal as the Titan-may-have-life concept has stuck. The proposed NASA submarine would not be aimed at Titan if the idea that Life-just-barely-could-be-there wasn't about. It's a really long shot. To get from somethings like the tholins to replicator molecules would require an undersea energy source [big heat] which is possible, a concentrated way of utilizing hard-to-bust Nitrogen gas in the presence of hard-to-come-by Carbon --- surprising little evidence of ammonia there [maybe in undersea ice], and [this is probably a showstopper] some undersea environment which would allow radiation-excited fragments of simple carbon and nitrogen containing molecules to maintain densities suitable for molecule-building reactions.

Still, if certain politicians will let us, let's go for it.


p.s. for dshans, the "methane evolution issues" popular today refer to cows BELCHING not farting. You, possibly as has happened before, have gotten the wrong end of the .... er .... schtick.
 
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dshans

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p.s. for dshans, the "methane evolution issues" popular today refer to cows BELCHING not farting. You, possibly as has happened before, have gotten the wrong end of the .... er .... schtick.

Why, I never! How dare you, sir?

You cheeky bastard, you – coming and going!

I cite an expert veterinarian as my source:

 

IrishinSyria

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Titan is theorized to be a huge "leftover" from the dense "cometary stage" of solar system formation, and probably composed of cometary materials like those in today's Oort Belt. That would mean that it has a core of nickel-iron and rocky matter [the two commonest comet types], surrounded by some water ice. The atmosphere is heavily Nitrogen, with a couple of percent hydrocarbon [almost all Methane but dashed with Ethane].

The temperatures are cold enough to get Methane/Ethane rain. These rains should accumulate in seas. The seas may have some water ice, but mainly hydrocarbon. When the sunlight hits the Methane in the atmosphere it should split some molecules and Titan's orangey color should result.

Carl Sagan was always trying to push for NASA funds by speculating on possible life reservoirs here in the Solar System [while violently opposing UFO research --- while secretly being fascinated by it, as I personally know]. His view of Titan was that the ultraviolet light impacts on the hydrocarbon atmosphere and maybe the sea of Titan might be biogenic. He and a colleague did closed glass atmosphere studies irradiating "Titan-atmosphere-like" gases and were able to produce globs of goo. This goo was a complex hydrocarbon mixture called tholins, but without the nitrogen added in [in key areas] it was not "on the road" to life.

Sagan had two motivations for his research: 1). fascinate the public so they'd write congressmen to support the space program [there was a republican cost-cutting bill not long ago for instance to actually zero NASA out, thankfully that didn't "float", but NASA has been under regular assault as an unproductive element of the US economy, so advocates like Sagan were necessary]; and 2). get himself elected into the National Academy of Sciences (Carl had quite an ego, but the NAS considered more of a media personage than a fundamental researcher).

He failed at his second goal, maybe because his Cornell colleague did most of the lab work and everybody knew it --- I don't know if he later squeaked in somehow, but Tholins didn't do it. But he pretty much succeeded at his first goal as the Titan-may-have-life concept has stuck. The proposed NASA submarine would not be aimed at Titan if the idea that Life-just-barely-could-be-there wasn't about. It's a really long shot. To get from somethings like the tholins to replicator molecules would require an undersea energy source [big heat] which is possible, a concentrated way of utilizing hard-to-bust Nitrogen gas in the presence of hard-to-come-by Carbon --- surprising little evidence of ammonia there [maybe in undersea ice], and [this is probably a showstopper] some undersea environment which would allow radiation-excited fragments of simple carbon and nitrogen containing molecules to maintain densities suitable for molecule-building reactions.

Still, if certain politicians will let us, let's go for it.


p.s. for dshans, the "methane evolution issues" popular today refer to cows BELCHING not farting. You, possibly as has happened before, have gotten the wrong end of the .... er .... schtick.

Sounds like you've got a story to tell?
 

Old Man Mike

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Yeh, but now probably isn't the time --- Old Man has to get to bed.

I spoke with Sagan and corresponded with him. He even asked me once to critique a draft article of his. Both he and Frank Drake were fascinated by UFOs but this was poison to their reputations and careers so they were different publicly than in private --- especially Drake.

One example of "Carl": I never saw an adult more jumpy-up-and-down about anything than him when we discussed how he was feeling when he first saw the so-called Face-on-Mars. He was for a few minutes a little kid dreaming about the possibilities --- of course we were alone at the time with no microphones around.
 

no.1IrishFan

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Titan is theorized to be a huge "leftover" from the dense "cometary stage" of solar system formation, and probably composed of cometary materials like those in today's Oort Belt. That would mean that it has a core of nickel-iron and rocky matter [the two commonest comet types], surrounded by some water ice. The atmosphere is heavily Nitrogen, with a couple of percent hydrocarbon [almost all Methane but dashed with Ethane].

The temperatures are cold enough to get Methane/Ethane rain. These rains should accumulate in seas. The seas may have some water ice, but mainly hydrocarbon. When the sunlight hits the Methane in the atmosphere it should split some molecules and Titan's orangey color should result.

Carl Sagan was always trying to push for NASA funds by speculating on possible life reservoirs here in the Solar System [while violently opposing UFO research --- while secretly being fascinated by it, as I personally know]. His view of Titan was that the ultraviolet light impacts on the hydrocarbon atmosphere and maybe the sea of Titan might be biogenic. He and a colleague did closed glass atmosphere studies irradiating "Titan-atmosphere-like" gases and were able to produce globs of goo. This goo was a complex hydrocarbon mixture called tholins, but without the nitrogen added in [in key areas] it was not "on the road" to life.

Sagan had two motivations for his research: 1). fascinate the public so they'd write congressmen to support the space program [there was a republican cost-cutting bill not long ago for instance to actually zero NASA out, thankfully that didn't "float", but NASA has been under regular assault as an unproductive element of the US economy, so advocates like Sagan were necessary]; and 2). get himself elected into the National Academy of Sciences (Carl had quite an ego, but the NAS considered more of a media personage than a fundamental researcher).

He failed at his second goal, maybe because his Cornell colleague did most of the lab work and everybody knew it --- I don't know if he later squeaked in somehow, but Tholins didn't do it. But he pretty much succeeded at his first goal as the Titan-may-have-life concept has stuck. The proposed NASA submarine would not be aimed at Titan if the idea that Life-just-barely-could-be-there wasn't about. It's a really long shot. To get from somethings like the tholins to replicator molecules would require an undersea energy source [big heat] which is possible, a concentrated way of utilizing hard-to-bust Nitrogen gas in the presence of hard-to-come-by Carbon --- surprising little evidence of ammonia there [maybe in undersea ice], and [this is probably a showstopper] some undersea environment which would allow radiation-excited fragments of simple carbon and nitrogen containing molecules to maintain densities suitable for molecule-building reactions.

Still, if certain politicians will let us, let's go for it.


p.s. for dshans, the "methane evolution issues" popular today refer to cows BELCHING not farting. You, possibly as has happened before, have gotten the wrong end of the .... er .... schtick.

So few scientific proposals receive government funding unless you can convince them of immediate practical use. The large Hadron collider, the worlds largest particle accelerator and the potential answer to questions regarding gravitation waves left over from the Big Bang and breakthroughs concerning the Higgs field was supposed to be in Texas, not Germany.
Would've cost about 5 billion to construct but was voted down due to its cost.

That's chump change these days.
 
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