More SEC arrests

[scUM Hater]

rrested

 

[Irish Insanity]

Its like our board is being taken over by opposing fans....

 

[fortwayne_nd]

I understand being ticked about the Te'o coverage, but this isn't something that happens all the time at Bama. Since the summer of '08 when Saban cleaned out the riff-raff from the previous staff's players, these would be our first serious incidents, and it's getting plenty of coverage locally and nationally.

Looks like they used a stolen credit/debit card to commit theft and were in possession of an unlicensed gun when doing so. One of these guys (Calloway) was busted in '11 for misdemeanor possession. He's a goner for sure. Depending on the circumstances, the other three probably are also. I hate to see anybody be this stupid and waste the opportunity they had, but they made their choice. Now they'll suffer the consequences.

Working at the carwash, yeah! Great career move!

 

[fortwayne_nd]

These are the first incidents? What were these?


Calloway arrested for weed.

Rolando hitting people with their car.

Jeremy Elder pulling a gun on a student and robbing them.

Jimmy Johns selling cocaine in the athletic parking lot.

Aaron Douglas arrested for DUI.

Mark Barron arrested for lying to police.

Alabama assistant coach arrested for pot.

Simeon Castille arrested on disorderly conduct.

Brandon Deaderick arrested for criminal mischief, resisting arrest, and giving the police a false name.

Brandon Fanney - disorderly conduct.

Roy Upchurch - diorderly conduct.

Courtney Upshaw arrested for domestic violence.

Nico Johnson arrested in high school for verbal harassment. (Dee Liner)



Or by "first incidents" were you referring to felony specific crimes?

No, the first since those incidents!! Facts are fun!!

 

[fortwayne_nd]

Bingo. This helps Saban purge players! This is the blessing he's been waiting for!

Blessing? ****, this is part of the plan! Criminals just being criminals.

 

[fortwayne_nd]

Saw this in the comment section on yahoo and it made me spit out my juice lol

They were also charged with fraud.....for posing as students ha ha

Still laughing!

 

[Booslum31]

Sorry for lengthy post.
In full disclosure...new poster here who did join during the Manti Teo saga. I commented then that however the story turned out, that ND was bigger than the episode, etc. I did not join to poke fun at ND...I tried to reassure ND posters that most folks with common sense understand that our programs will experience bad times but it does not define our programs...hopefully.

As to why Manti's story was covered so widely? My honest guess is due to his celebrity status as the ND leader and a Heisman candidate influenced the amount of coverage. Also, the story was so unusual it had people eager to find out what was going on. Yes, the recent Alabama arrests are much more serious than what happened with Manti.

Alabama's recent arrests involved no one of national celebrity. These kids were backups, not Heisman candidates...thereby not as appealing to casual readers. And as serious as these offenses are they are much more common in society than Manti's story...sad yes.

What story do we think would grab a non football fan's attention? If your job was to increase readers, traffic, etc. and they both happened on the same day, which would you lead with? Manti's story is obviously the bigger seller. Fair? Absolutely not.

I hope Manti goes on to a great NFL career and as much as I have been raised to dislike ND...I hope they stay at the top. College football is more entertaining with the ND's and Bama's playing for national championships.

As far the 4 from Alabama. I am confident they will never step foot on campus as a student or player again. I hope they are punished severly enough that they make better choices in the future. If that means jail time, good. And I say that after spending several years helping one of the players we are talking about. He never showed signs of this behavior growing up. I would have given him the keys to my house and told him to go get something for me and would have never worried about what he was doing. I have known him since he was in 4th grade. But this act is severe enough that even if it is a 1st time it must be dealt with harshly. I hope that the punishment will allow him to one day make another go at his dream of playing in the NFL. But if he is unable...he has only himself to blame.

Roll Tide and I hope we both meet in the national championship game again in the near future.

Because I want Bama to come back to the pack i had hope that these were four studs that they couldn't live without. Though I heard that three of them were four stars and one five star, I think they did Saban a favor by helping with the over-signage strategy.

 

[irishtrain]

I'm on record for my dislike for the sec, thats for sure. I respect the product that is on the field ( who wouldnt ) but when these things take place it reinforces the feeling that most of us have. Certainly they are playing the best football by a conference today but it continues to bring up the guestion how many of these kids actually belong on a college campus. I dont care who you are/ or where you come from/ when stuff like this happens it shows very simply why these guys are on campus. They are there to win football games and entertain on Saturday. They are there to bring $$$ into the conference with little regard to 'are they actually college students'. It should bring a centered scrutiny on just what goes on to admitt these guys. Can you imagine the %$#@ to pay if this happened at Notre Dame. It makes a kid getting duped on the internet look like a game of 'OLD MAIDS' compared to high stakes Vegas poker. When you play high stakes poker sometimes you get burned. Embarrassing

 

[chubler]

Not even going to get into the issue of whether these guys belong on campus- I haven't seen their ACT/SAT scores or transcripts...

However, I wish there was some forgiveness/bend possible in the discipline. ND was able to forgive Michael Floyd three times for alcohol offenses- the last one was actually pretty terrible. But as a result, he went from what some would call a "punk" attitude to a moral as well as a football leader. Bama probably can't get away with that- too many arrests to risk looking soft/setting a precedent/different type of person (I'd argue that in general, the average alabama player needs more rules than the average ND player). So, sadly, these boys will be thrown out on their butts (deservedly, dont get me wrong) when a second chance could've been all the difference, whether they ever saw the field or not.

 

[Irish To The Core]

And I certainly think you have some valid points there. However, until the incident this week, Bama hasn't had any serious issues with players getting into trouble in almost 5 years. That's been my basic point in all of this: since shortly after his first season when Saban got rid of the problem players he'd inherited, we've had no serious incidents and only a small handful of minor ones until this week.

Not to open up another can of worms or start a fight, but during that time, ND's football team has had more total arrests and more arrests for serious crimes than we have until this week. And both schools are doing better than most other programs. Unfortunately, it happens everywhere.

This week does not come with a do over. The crimes at Tuscaloosa this week dwarf anything that has happened at Notre Dame in my memory.

Secondly equating a DUI (serious crime?) with these violent crimes is ridiculous. DUI is serious but these robberies, etc. were premeditated violent crimes, that is a whole other catagory of crime.

 

[JughedJones]

Amazing how fast this dropped off the ESPN.com front page.

Manti gets duped, ND gets dragged through the coals and Te'o is one of the most hated athletes in America.

Alabama's players are implicated in a PED scandal and beating students unconscious for fun and it's relatively no big deal.

Awesome.

 

[JughedJones]

Not even going to get into the issue of whether these guys belong on campus- I haven't seen their ACT/SAT scores or transcripts...

However, I wish there was some forgiveness/bend possible in the discipline. ND was able to forgive Michael Floyd three times for alcohol offenses- the last one was actually pretty terrible. But as a result, he went from what some would call a "punk" attitude to a moral as well as a football leader. Bama probably can't get away with that- too many arrests to risk looking soft/setting a precedent/different type of person (I'd argue that in general, the average alabama player needs more rules than the average ND player). So, sadly, these boys will be thrown out on their butts (deservedly, dont get me wrong) when a second chance could've been all the difference, whether they ever saw the field or not.

Surely you jest.

This is a heinous thuggish crime. Coming out of the shadows to beat multiple students close to brain damage isn't a 'second chance' kind of scenario.

Perhaps they will get another go at college and football, but hopefully after they do their deserved time in jail and at another school.

 

[IrishinTN]

Arkansas Razorbacks' Austin Flynn arrested, charged with DWI - ESPN

Okay, so no felony and the reason I list it is because it says "This arrest marks the first since Bret Bielema was named coach in December..." Wow! Two months?

 

[yankeeND]

Amazing how fast this dropped off the ESPN.com front page.

Manti gets duped, ND gets dragged through the coals and Te'o is one of the most hated athletes in America.

Alabama's players are implicated in a PED scandal and beating students unconscious for fun and it's relatively no big deal.

Awesome.

That's exactly what pissed me off about the whole thing.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Not even going to get into the issue of whether these guys belong on campus- I haven't seen their ACT/SAT scores or transcripts...

However, I wish there was some forgiveness/bend possible in the discipline. ND was able to forgive Michael Floyd three times for alcohol offenses- the last one was actually pretty terrible. But as a result, he went from what some would call a "punk" attitude to a moral as well as a football leader. Bama probably can't get away with that- too many arrests to risk looking soft/setting a precedent/different type of person (I'd argue that in general, the average alabama player needs more rules than the average ND player). So, sadly, these boys will be thrown out on their butts (deservedly, dont get me wrong) when a second chance could've been all the difference, whether they ever saw the field or not.

I hope those guys get a second chance, but not yet and not at Bama. We all fall down and need forgiveness at times, but they need to suffer the consequences of their actions first. I realize they're kids, and I hope they get it together, realize the seriousness of what they did, change their lives, and EARN a second chance, but first things first.

 

[JughedJones]

Rome said it best yesterday when he commented:

"Everybody does stupid things in college, I did, you probably did, maybe you still are if you're in college. You know what people don't do? Savagely beat students because they're bored and need Doritos money. Sociopaths do that."

 

[palinurus]

I've been among those arguing that a double-standard exists, and it surely does, but the double-standard is our own. We want to argue that, generally speaking, we tolerate less BS than other schools and bring in, as a general matter, a better class of kid (both of which I think are true); if so, then we have to expect to get criticized more, or at least get more media attention, when a Michael Floyd steps in it for a third time. That's why the Floyd process was such a long one, and involved the school reviewing, THEN Kelly reviewing, and involved both school and Kelly "sanctions" or requirements, if memory serves

Of course, it's apples and oranges to compare Floyd's alcohol issue/the Bama thugs issue and T'eo's, because T'eo's was really of a completely different nature than criminal wrongdoing. That difference makes it both deserving of (a) less criticism and (b) more attention than a typical college kid's assault of another student story. Still, the level of attention is a bit unfair to the extent people want to draw false, or differing, conclusions of the programs based on such incidents.

Plus, and not attacking Bama here, people have a lower surprise level when certain schools' or conferences' kids transgress. Not arguing that they have more discipline-based issues than others (but I wouldn't be at all surprised), but my sense is that the perception is that, say, GA, LSU, FSU, maybe the SEC generally, have more discipline problems than ND, and so it's less of a surprise when there is an incident. Less surprise equals less media attention.

 

[irishtrain]

Are we trying to be tooooo nice here about this subject or what. The 'Mickey Mouse' stuff that has happened at Notre Dame is pale in comparison to this. Please dont tell me any different. Please dont insult my intelligence. This is pre thought/pre determined/ and absolutely wrong. Please dont throw it out there that the girl that took her life and the incredible accident with the student manager compare to this. Those were tradgedies of major proportions but not pre thought feelings of entitlement acts. I can guarantee you that kids like this do not get into Notre Dame. The backround check and research on the kid is just not there at some schools. Are you telling me that any coach cant see this coming with certain kids when he is recruiting them. If he cant then his common sense factor is ZERO. The time has come to see what the %$#@ is going on here-$$$$ for the conference $$$$ for the team. These guys are not college students they are hired football mercenaries to win football games. Lets stop pussy footing around here and just call it what it is.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Are we trying to be tooooo nice here about this subject or what. The 'Mickey Mouse' stuff that has happened at Notre Dame is pale in comparison to this. Please dont tell me any different. Please dont insult my intelligence. This is pre thought/pre determined/ and absolutely wrong. Please dont throw it out there that the girl that took her life and the incredible accident with the student manager compare to this. Those were tradgedies of major proportions but not pre thought feelings of entitlement acts. I can guarantee you that kids like this do not get into Notre Dame. The backround check and research on the kid is just not there at some schools. Are you telling me that any coach cant see this coming with certain kids when he is recruiting them. If he cant then his common sense factor is ZERO. The time has come to see what the %$#@ is going on here-$$$$ for the conference $$$$ for the team. These guys are not college students they are hired football mercenaries to win football games. Lets stop pussy footing around here and just call it what it is.

Be careful of too much self-righteous claims of purity and lack of problems at ND or any other school. I'm not trying to slam ND, but you've had some serious issues also. Charges of sexual assault and even gang rape have been levied against players more than once in the past decade or so, players threatening and intimidating victims into silence, the school failing to adequately deal with the problem, and a fanbase more than happy to pretend it hasn't happened.

I can tell you what the perception of ND is outside your fanbase: a good school with better than average behavior from your athletes, but far from the lily white purity most of you claim and want to believe. Most people outside your fanbase think ND sweeps these issues under the rug, stonewalls the victims, covers its butt to protect its image and team, and claims nothing happened, and that your fanbase is all too willing to bury their heads in the sand, turn a blind eye, pretend none of it could ever happen at your school, and shout down anyone who says otherwise.

 

[irishfanjho15]

Be careful of too much self-righteous claims of purity and lack of problems at ND or any other school. I'm not trying to slam ND, but you've had some serious issues also. Charges of sexual assault and even gang rape have been levied against players more than once in the past decade or so, players threatening and intimidating victims into silence, the school failing to adequately deal with the problem, and a fanbase more than happy to pretend it hasn't happened.

I can tell you what the perception of ND is outside your fanbase: a good school with better than average behavior from your athletes, but far from the lily white purity most of you claim and want to believe. Most people outside your fanbase think ND sweeps these issues under the rug, stonewalls the victims, covers its butt to protect its image and team, and claims nothing happened, and that your fanbase is all too willing to bury their heads in the sand, turn a blind eye, pretend none of it could ever happen at your school, and shout down anyone who says otherwise.

ND is far from as pure as it gets.

The same is most certainly true about you and yours.

Here I FIFY:
Most people outside your fanbase think the SEC sweeps these issues under the rug, stonewalls the victims, covers its butt to protect its image and teams, and claims nothing happened, and that your fanbase is all too willing to bury their heads in the sand, turn a blind eye, pretend none of it could ever happen at your school, and shout down anyone who says otherwise.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

Not much. The girl liked Upshaw. They'd been out, but weren't seriously involved. They were at a party, but not as a couple, and Upshaw was talking to another girl. First girl didn't like that, got mad and slapped him unexpectedly and very hard, then ran. He had a few seconds of just instinctive anger & shock and grabbed her from behind and started to force her to the ground, but turned her loose first. She turned and swung at him again and he shoved her away. A cop saw all of it except the initial slap and arrested them both. It went to court and both admitted everything that happened, the cop's story jived with theirs, the girl's dad said it was just a stupid spat and the girl shouldn't have hit him, and Upshaw expressed sincere embarrassment and regret, so the judge sent them both to anger management classes and dismissed the case.

2 things. First, since when is a rational reaction to a girl slapping you in the face, grabbing her by the hair and forcing her to the ground. Then he shoved her away. Forget for a minute the obvious size and strength difference, but what kind of man has that initial reaction? A women slaps and pushes you and you say that's an instinctive reaction? Wrong.

Be careful of too much self-righteous claims of purity and lack of problems at ND or any other school. I'm not trying to slam ND, but you've had some serious issues also. Charges of sexual assault and even gang rape have been levied against players more than once in the past decade or so, players threatening and intimidating victims into silence, the school failing to adequately deal with the problem, and a fanbase more than happy to pretend it hasn't happened.

I can tell you what the perception of ND is outside your fanbase: a good school with better than average behavior from your athletes, but far from the lily white purity most of you claim and want to believe. Most people outside your fanbase think ND sweeps these issues under the rug, stonewalls the victims, covers its butt to protect its image and team, and claims nothing happened, and that your fanbase is all too willing to bury their heads in the sand, turn a blind eye, pretend none of it could ever happen at your school, and shout down anyone who says otherwise.

To revisit the first point. What are the chances that intimidation led to the dismissal? My guess is there is a fairly good chance. You think a girl who gets into it w a football star and pursues it is going to be applauded as she walks down the street wherever this happened? I don't. No man of any character pulls a woman down by the hair then shoves her away. For those that disagree w the majority of this fan base, I say to them, don't waste your time here.

 

[JughedJones]

Be careful of too much self-righteous claims of purity and lack of problems at ND or any other school. I'm not trying to slam ND, but you've had some serious issues also. Charges of sexual assault and even gang rape have been levied against players more than once in the past decade or so, players threatening and intimidating victims into silence, the school failing to adequately deal with the problem, and a fanbase more than happy to pretend it hasn't happened.

I can tell you what the perception of ND is outside your fanbase: a good school with better than average behavior from your athletes, but far from the lily white purity most of you claim and want to believe. Most people outside your fanbase think ND sweeps these issues under the rug, stonewalls the victims, covers its butt to protect its image and team, and claims nothing happened, and that your fanbase is all too willing to bury their heads in the sand, turn a blind eye, pretend none of it could ever happen at your school, and shout down anyone who says otherwise.

You're starting to go down a pretty heavy road here homeboy.

Take your ****ing medicine, you recruited goons... wish them gone from your program and move on. Take your "Yeah but you guys do it too" to an Alabama website where you can jerk each other off. Nobody's buying it here.

 

[Bishop2b5]

2 things. First, since when is a rational reaction to a girl slapping you in the face, grabbing her by the hair and forcing her to the ground. Then he shoved her away. Forget for a minute the obvious size and strength difference, but what kind of man has that initial reaction? A women slaps and pushes you and you say that's an instinctive reaction? Wrong.



To revisit the first point. What are the chances that intimidation led to the dismissal? My guess is there is a fairly good chance. You think a girl who gets into it w a football star and pursues it is going to be applauded as she walks down the street wherever this happened? I don't. No man of any character pulls a woman down by the hair then shoves her away. For those that disagree w the majority of this fan base, I say to them, don't waste your time here.

Well first, the point was that an instinctive reaction ISN'T rational. It's a flash of anger and emotional reaction, not a rational thought-out one. Second, he didn't force her to the ground as you keep claiming. When she slapped him unexpectedly and started to then run away, he grabbed her to do so, but immediately turned her loose. She turned and swung at him again and he pushed her away. That's it. The young woman wasn't injured in any way.

The judge didn't dismiss the case because the girl had been intimidated into not pressing charges. The officer on the scene saw all but the initial slap and he, Upshaw and the girl all told the same story of what happened. Her own dad said she shouldn't have slapped him and that all of it was nothing but a lover's spat between a couple of kids. The judge sent them both to anger management classes and dismissed it. There's no need to try and make it into something it wasn't.

 

[Bishop2b5]

You're starting to go down a pretty heavy road here homeboy.

Take your ****ing medicine, you recruited goons... wish them gone from your program and move on. Take your "Yeah but you guys do it too" to an Alabama website where you can jerk each other off. Nobody's buying it here.

I'm not trying to deflect from what the Bama players did. No Bama fan condones their actions. This isn't an attempt to say, "Yeah, well ND does bad stuff too" to deflect from what the Bama players did. Nor is it any sort of attempt to smear ND. I'm pointing out that all the "At ND our players are saints and never do anything serious" stuff is BS. There is irrefutable evidence that when it's happened, other players have tried to intimidate and threaten the victims into remaining silent, and some very strong evidence that the spin machine has then smeard the victims to diminish their claims.

Your players have gotten in serious trouble. They have gotten arrested about as frequently as at other schools. There have been VERY serious charges levied against ND players and accusations by victims and the media that the school's taken less than adequate steps to address the issues and appears to have all too often been a lot more interested in protecting the players and the school's image than anything else. I don't hate ND and I genuinely am not trying to smear your school, but don't give me that holier than thou, self-righteous, our program is pure and all our players are choirboys routine either. You have a fine school with plenty of upstanding players, but pretending there haven't been some serious issues just like at other schools is just naive and a fantasy.

 

[JughedJones]

I'm not trying to deflect from what the Bama players did. No Bama fan condones their actions. This isn't an attempt to say, "Yeah, well ND does bad stuff too" to deflect from what the Bama players did. Nor is it any sort of attempt to smear ND. I'm pointing out that all the "At ND our players are saints and never do anything serious" stuff is BS. There is irrefutable evidence that when it's happened, other players have tried to intimidate and threaten the victims into remaining silent, and some very strong evidence that the spin machine has then smeard the victims to diminish their claims.

Your players have gotten in serious trouble. They have gotten arrested about as frequently as at other schools. There have been VERY serious charges levied against ND players and accusations by victims and the media that the school's taken less than adequate steps to address the issues and appears to have all too often been a lot more interested in protecting the players and the school's image than anything else. I don't hate ND and I genuinely am not trying to smear your school, but don't give me that holier than thou, self-righteous, our program is pure and all our players are choirboys routine either. You have a fine school with plenty of upstanding players, but pretending there haven't been some serious issues just like at other schools is just naive and a fantasy.

Great. So accusations by the media and hearsay are the same thing as evidence of wrongdoing?

OK then, I heard from a guy who went to Alabama that one of your linebackers killed a girl in 1993.

The university might want to address that travesty.

 

[palinurus]

I'm not trying to deflect from what the Bama players did. No Bama fan condones their actions. This isn't an attempt to say, "Yeah, well ND does bad stuff too" to deflect from what the Bama players did. Nor is it any sort of attempt to smear ND. I'm pointing out that all the "At ND our players are saints and never do anything serious" stuff is BS. There is irrefutable evidence that when it's happened, other players have tried to intimidate and threaten the victims into remaining silent, and some very strong evidence that the spin machine has then smeard the victims to diminish their claims.

Your players have gotten in serious trouble. They have gotten arrested about as frequently as at other schools. There have been VERY serious charges levied against ND players and accusations by victims and the media that the school's taken less than adequate steps to address the issues and appears to have all too often been a lot more interested in protecting the players and the school's image than anything else. I don't hate ND and I genuinely am not trying to smear your school, but don't give me that holier than thou, self-righteous, our program is pure and all our players are choirboys routine either. You have a fine school with plenty of upstanding players, but pretending there haven't been some serious issues just like at other schools is just naive and a fantasy.

The first bold is an objective falsehood. This is exactly what you are doing. People attack Alabama and you say ND isn't pure either. What a joke! And what a logical fallacy: the old "your mother" fallacy.

The second bold -- please provide the irrefutable evidence of the "intimidation." I've never seen that. Seriously, I've heard that alleged in the anti-Catholic and anti-Notre Dame media and in fringe leftwing publications like The Nation, but I've never seen "irrefutable" evidence. On the second point, I am not saying you are wrong; I would just like to see it.

 

[Irish#1]

I'm not trying to deflect from what the Bama players did. No Bama fan condones their actions. This isn't an attempt to say, "Yeah, well ND does bad stuff too" to deflect from what the Bama players did. Nor is it any sort of attempt to smear ND. I'm pointing out that all the "At ND our players are saints and never do anything serious" stuff is BS. There is irrefutable evidence that when it's happened, other players have tried to intimidate and threaten the victims into remaining silent, and some very strong evidence that the spin machine has then smeard the victims to diminish their claims.

Your players have gotten in serious trouble. They have gotten arrested about as frequently as at other schools. There have been VERY serious charges levied against ND players and accusations by victims and the media that the school's taken less than adequate steps to address the issues and appears to have all too often been a lot more interested in protecting the players and the school's image than anything else. I don't hate ND and I genuinely am not trying to smear your school, but don't give me that holier than thou, self-righteous, our program is pure and all our players are choirboys routine either. You have a fine school with plenty of upstanding players, but pretending there haven't been some serious issues just like at other schools is just naive and a fantasy.

You're fighting a losing battle. Unless you have read every article, court transcript and spent time on campus talking to people I would suggest you drop this like a hot potato.

 

[Bishop2b5]

The first bold is an objective falsehood. This is exactly what you are doing. People attack Alabama and you say ND isn't pure either. What a joke! And what a logical fallacy: the old "your mother" fallacy.

The second bold -- please provide the irrefutable evidence of the "intimidation." I've never seen that. Seriously, I've heard that alleged in the anti-Catholic and anti-Notre Dame media and in fringe leftwing publications like The Nation, but I've never seen "irrefutable" evidence. On the second point, I am not saying you are wrong; I would just like to see it.

There are several reputable sources (Washington Post, USA Today, CBS Sports, etc) reporting Lizzy Seeburg, as well as another young woman who claims she was raped by an ND player, received numerous texts from ND players telling them to not mess with ND football, to keep quiet, and threatening them. Pictures of Seeburg's cell phone showing such texts are included with some of those articles and easy to find on the Internet.

Again, I don't care to smear ND. That's not the point. Nor is it to deflect from what the Bama players did. I readily admit they did something horrible and deserve to be punished. I'm pointing out that the holier than thou, our players never do anything serious stuff that's so common from some ND fans is blatantly false. Too many ND fans are so quick to condemn everyone else for their issues, while claiming those things don't happen at ND. Sorry, but they do, and probably to about the same degree as at most other programs. All the denials, pretending it doesn't happen at ND, and the hear no evil, see no evil attitude of fans doesn't change that. It just makes you blind to reality and unwilling to fix any issues because you can't admit they even exist in the first place.

 

[Bishop2b5]

You're fighting a losing battle. Unless you have read every article, court transcript and spent time on campus talking to people I would suggest you drop this like a hot potato.

I'm sorry you don't like hearing a differing opinion or that everybody else isn't quite as convinced as you are that every ND player is a saint and your school is perfect. Too many of you readily criticize every other program in the country for anything and everything, but get furious when someone points out that things aren't quite perfect at ND either. You have the same problems as every other school. Until you realize that, you'll never address those problems.

 

[ThePiombino]

You have the same problems as every other school.

No, we really don't. A different breed of kid enrolls at ND- a mythical creature. You may have heard about him- a STUDENT-athlete.