More SEC arrests

[palinurus]

There are several reputable sources (Washington Post, USA Today, CBS Sports, etc) reporting Lizzy Seeburg, as well as another young woman who claims she was raped by an ND player, received numerous texts from ND players telling them to not mess with ND football, to keep quiet, and threatening them. Pictures of Seeburg's cell phone showing such texts are included with some of those articles and easy to find on the Internet.

Again, I don't care to smear ND. That's not the point. Nor is it to deflect from what the Bama players did. I readily admit they did something horrible and deserve to be punished. I'm pointing out that the holier than thou, our players never do anything serious stuff that's so common from some ND fans is blatantly false. Too many ND fans are so quick to condemn everyone else for their issues, while claiming those things don't happen at ND. Sorry, but they do, and probably to about the same degree as at most other programs. All the denials, pretending it doesn't happen at ND, and the hear no evil, see no evil attitude of fans doesn't change that. It just makes you blind to reality and unwilling to fix any issues because you can't admit they even exist in the first place.

Yeah, I couldn't find any "irrebuttable" evidence, either. Maybe it happened, I don't know. But it sounds like you are exaggerating, making it sound like a campaign of intimidation; from what I saw, it was alleged that one kid did it. Unlike the Bama case and the SEC criminal cases, the case you mentioned, though very sad, was not unambiguous. There were legitimate reasons, it appears, why there was no arrest or prosecution.

And, yes, you are deflecting. The point is that ND problems in this regard are not as frequent or as severe as SEC problems. I don't know if you dispute that or not. You seem to be equating "ND has had problems" with "ND is as bad as anyone." The former is true; the latter is false.

And this "unless you face it, it will never get addressed" meme is just overwrought silliness.

 

[IrishLax]

There are several reputable sources (Washington Post, USA Today, CBS Sports, etc) reporting Lizzy Seeburg, as well as another young woman who claims she was raped by an ND player, received numerous texts from ND players telling them to not mess with ND football, to keep quiet, and threatening them. Pictures of Seeburg's cell phone showing such texts are included with some of those articles and easy to find on the Internet.

Sheesh... please try to remotely get your facts right. Your muddling your facts like crazy here between two alleged incidents.

1. There is Lizzy Seeberg. The girl accused a player of touching her breast and then stopping. There was no physical evidence and her account on numerous levels did not match up with facts/the timeline (most specifically, her account stated that he started kissing her and touching her breast before being interrupted by a phone call and angrily throwing her off of him to go answer his phone... and phone call records show no call was ever received by his phone during the time of the alleged incident... so her whole story is basically a crock). The reason this sensationalist story got so big is simply because she killed herself. Otherwise, you'd have a simple he-said, she-said case of someone allegedly touching someone's breast... and it would've gone nowhere without proof AND the fact that her story is the only one of all of the witnesses that had holes/errors in it. Every other story (including one from her own female friend) matched up... and hers had giant errors. So why does anyone even believe her account at all much less assume stone cold guilt of the accused? And again, if she doesn't have an anxiety disorder and OD on her anti-depressants than no one cares about this at all... it's a nothing story. Some other bullet points:

1A. The reason the story got out is that the Seeberg parents tried to shake down ND for money, ND said no, and then they went to the press months after Lizzy was dead. So who actually has the poor ethics here? ND or the parents attempting blackmail?
1B. Two police forces and the local DA investigated this in full and declined to file charges. This should be mandatory reading for anyone. And it is well known that, if anything, the local police HATE Notre Dame students/football players... so don't try to play the bias card.
1C. If a student is not guilty of anything (in fact, not even CHARGED with anything) then why should ND take any action against them at all? Would you rather ND be Duke and just start punishing innocent people because of a made up story? Is Texas wrong for not kicking their two football players out of school that had sex with that girl before their bowl game, and she accused them of rape, when charges weren't filed?

2. Then there is an alleged random second anonymous girl that no one has even been able to confirm the existence of who Melinda Henneberger (an incredibly biased hack who hates all men and assumes guilt of all the accused because she herself was raped in Texas and didn't file charges because no one would believe her... she was also FIRED from her previous job for playing fast and loose with facts) or the Seeberg's may have very well invented out of thin air. We might as well call this girl Lennay Kekua because there is not one single first hand account of this person even existing outside of second hand 'reports.' Henneberger says this alleged girl was allegedly raped and then allegedly didn't press charges because she was afraid to. Wake me up when there is one shred of fact associated with that story... if I allege Sasquatch raped my dog and put it on the internet it doesn't make it true. What do you possibly want anyone (the police, Notre Dame, etc.) to do about an incident that for all intents and purposes might as well not exist because there isn't even a complainant?

I hope I've educated you. Please don't come in here with any more half-baked BS. It's tiresome to read elsewhere on the internet, and I certainly don't see a need to tolerate it on our board.

 

[woolybug25]

Sheesh... I thought I was just being a big meanie to our Bama friend earlier, but here we are again....


Be careful, fellas. Bishop is going to be telling you how you are all bigots basing your opinions on ignorant, hateful misconceptions here shortly. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for not being more receptive to other points of view.

I saw this coming....

 

[JughedJones]

I'm sorry you don't like hearing a differing opinion or that everybody else isn't quite as convinced as you are that every ND player is a saint and your school is perfect. Too many of you readily criticize every other program in the country for anything and everything, but get furious when someone points out that things aren't quite perfect at ND either. You have the same problems as every other school. Until you realize that, you'll never address those problems.

I feel like you have worn out your welcome here. Can you imagine the reception any one of us would get if we went to an Alabama board and posted this horseshite?

We've been more than accommodating, now you're just a douche. Exit stage left.

 

[irishfanjho15]

I feel like you have worn out your welcome here. Can you imagine the reception any one of us would get if we went to an Alabama board and posted this horseshite?

We've been more than accommodating, now you're just a douche. Exit stage left.

Cue the "sorry you don't like differing opinions" in 3....2.....1.....

 

[Bishop2b5]

No, we really don't. A different breed of kid enrolls at ND- a mythical creature. You may have heard about him- a STUDENT-athlete.

OK. I guess all those newspapers and magazines made their stories up, the girls all lied about being assaulted and raped, the writers who wrote about it are all hacks, the cops faked the BAC levels, all the arrests for underage drinking and DUI are cases of mistaken identity, ND is the only school where players go to class, they're all saints, and anybody who says otherwise is just trying to smear ND or deflect from their own school's shortcomings.

I see a lot of people in here complain about how the national press or ESPN hammers ND and is biased against you. There's a reason. It's not that more bad things happen on your campus or with your players than elsewhere. They don't, and your players get into no more trouble than anywhere else. It's that attitude too many of your fans have that "We're the only school that puts emphasis on academics and every other school is a joke compared to us. Our players are all saints. They never do anything wrong and we're the most noble bastion of integrity in the world." When something bad happens or your players get into trouble, the press relishes getting to rub your noses in it for having claimed otherwise and having been so sanctimonious.

 

[JughedJones]

OK. I guess all those newspapers and magazines made their stories up, the girls all lied about being assaulted and raped, the writers who wrote about it are all hacks, the cops faked the BAC levels, all the arrests for underage drinking and DUI are cases of mistaken identity, ND is the only school where players go to class, they're all saints, and anybody who says otherwise is just trying to smear ND or deflect from their own school's shortcomings.

I see a lot of people in here complain about how the national press or ESPN hammers ND and is biased against you. There's a reason. It's not that more bad things happen on your campus or with your players than elsewhere. They don't, and your players get into no more trouble than anywhere else. It's that attitude too many of your fans have that "We're the only school that puts emphasis on academics and every other school is a joke compared to us. Our players are all saints. They never do anything wrong and we're the most noble bastion of integrity in the world." When something bad happens or your players get into trouble, the press relishes getting to rub your noses in it for having claimed otherwise and having been so sanctimonious.

Not every other school. We like Stanford. Respect for Vandy. I'm sure there's a couple others out there too.

Why do you like hanging out here if you find us such sanctimonious elitist bastards?

Go back to where you came from. Maybe they haven't seen the picture of your hot *** wife yet. You know, the one with the auburn/green/blue eyes that your step daughter can't discern from the American Apparel models on the internet.

Good grief. How long have we let your troll *** slip under the radar?

 

[palinurus]

OK. I guess all those newspapers and magazines made their stories up, the girls all lied about being assaulted and raped, the writers who wrote about it are all hacks, the cops faked the BAC levels, all the arrests for underage drinking and DUI are cases of mistaken identity, ND is the only school where players go to class, they're all saints, and anybody who says otherwise is just trying to smear ND or deflect from their own school's shortcomings.

I see a lot of people in here complain about how the national press or ESPN hammers ND and is biased against you. There's a reason. It's not that more bad things happen on your campus or with your players than elsewhere. They don't, and your players get into no more trouble than anywhere else. It's that attitude too many of your fans have that "We're the only school that puts emphasis on academics and every other school is a joke compared to us. Our players are all saints. They never do anything wrong and we're the most noble bastion of integrity in the world." When something bad happens or your players get into trouble, the press relishes getting to rub your noses in it for having claimed otherwise and having been so sanctimonious.

I agree that most of the media and most of the college football base like to THINK that ND fans believe this tricked-out caricature that you trotted out here. I also understand that it's easier to trash a straw man than the truth. There's good and bad everywhere; that doesn't mean we're all the same.

 

[irishfanjho15]

Not every other school. We like Stanford. Respect for Vandy. I'm sure there's a couple others out there too.

Why do you like hanging out here if you find us such sanctimonious elitist bastards?

Go back to where you came from. Maybe they haven't seen the picture of your hot *** wife yet. You know, the one with the auburn/green/blue eyes that your step daughter can't discern from the American Apparel models on the internet.

Good grief. How long have we let your troll *** slip under the radar?

 

[Bishop2b5]

Not every other school. We like Stanford. Respect for Vandy. I'm sure there's a couple others out there too.

Why do you like hanging out here if you find us such sanctimonious elitist bastards?

Go back to where you came from. Maybe they haven't seen the picture of your hot *** wife yet. You know, the one with the auburn/green/blue eyes that your step daughter can't discern from the American Apparel models on the internet.

Good grief. How long have we let your troll *** slip under the radar?

Because most of you aren't sanctimonious elitist bastards. I've already gotten two PM's from regular ND fans in here about this thread, both supporting me knocking a few of you off your pedastal for being so naive and sanctimonious. Most of your fans aren't naive and don't believe every ND player is a saint and ND can do no wrong. A few of you do though and just have a meltdown when anyone suggests otherwise. You're like radical religious fanatics who call every other religion an abomination, but go nuts if someone offers even the slightest criticism of yours and want to start screaming "HERESY" and burning people at the stake.

 

[palinurus]

Because most of you aren't sanctimonious elitist bastards. I've already gotten two PM's from regular ND fans in here about this thread, both supporting me knocking a few of you off your pedastal for being so naive and sanctimonious. Most of your fans aren't naive and don't believe every ND player is a saint and ND can do no wrong. A few of you do though and just have a meltdown when anyone suggests otherwise. You're like radical religious fanatics who call every other religion an abomination, but go nuts if someone offers even the slightest criticism of yours and want to start screaming "HERESY" and burning people at the stake.

Ah, a little allusion to the Inquisition. Interesting.

 

[irishfanjho15]

Because most of you aren't sanctimonious elitist bastards. I've already gotten two PM's from regular ND fans in here about this thread, both supporting me knocking a few of you off your pedastal for being so naive and sanctimonious. Most of your fans aren't naive and don't believe every ND player is a saint and ND can do no wrong. A few of you do though and just have a meltdown when anyone suggests otherwise. You're like radical religious fanatics who call every other religion an abomination, but go nuts if someone offers even the slightest criticism of yours and want to start screaming "HERESY" and burning people at the stake.

You. Are. A. Joke.

and for the record I stand on mountain tops, biatch!!!!!

 

[Bishop2b5]

I agree that most of the media and most of the college football base like to THINK that ND fans believe this tricked-out caricature that you trotted out here. I also understand that it's easier to trash a straw man than the truth. There's good and bad everywhere; that doesn't mean we're all the same.

I absolutely agree with you on that. Are all ND fans like this? Of course not. Most aren't, I'm sure. Most of the ones on IE don't appear to be that way either. The problem is that you certainly seem to have a much higher percentage who are than most schools, though. That definitely plays on the public's and media's perception that too many of your fans hear no evil and see no evil and are blind to any problems that you do have.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

Because most of you aren't sanctimonious elitist bastards. I've already gotten two PM's from regular ND fans in here about this thread, both supporting me knocking a few of you off your pedastal for being so naive and sanctimonious. Most of your fans aren't naive and don't believe every ND player is a saint and ND can do no wrong. A few of you do though and just have a meltdown when anyone suggests otherwise. You're like radical religious fanatics who call every other religion an abomination, but go nuts if someone offers even the slightest criticism of yours and want to start screaming "HERESY" and burning people at the stake.

So Allgator was one, who was the other? (And they aren't real fans)

 

[PraetorianND]

OK. I guess all those newspapers and magazines made their stories up, the girls all lied about being assaulted and raped, the writers who wrote about it are all hacks, the cops faked the BAC levels, all the arrests for underage drinking and DUI are cases of mistaken identity, ND is the only school where players go to class, they're all saints, and anybody who says otherwise is just trying to smear ND or deflect from their own school's shortcomings.

I see a lot of people in here complain about how the national press or ESPN hammers ND and is biased against you. There's a reason. It's not that more bad things happen on your campus or with your players than elsewhere. They don't, and your players get into no more trouble than anywhere else. It's that attitude too many of your fans have that "We're the only school that puts emphasis on academics and every other school is a joke compared to us. Our players are all saints. They never do anything wrong and we're the most noble bastion of integrity in the world." When something bad happens or your players get into trouble, the press relishes getting to rub your noses in it for having claimed otherwise and having been so sanctimonious.

This is the exact same thing that happened with Deadspin and Manti Te'o. They had half a story and spun it so that it would get the most air time. Interestingly, because most people hate ND news outlets know exactly how to spin their stories to get the most interest.

All journalism is these days is regurgitation of the first story that breaks because it must be right. In both of these cases it was not right. There was no "rape" at all, there was an alleged fondling (sexual assault). How many news outlets reported that she was raped by an ND football player? Each one of those reports is wrong right off the bat, and probably did ZERO investigation of their own.

It's actually really sad because once the court of public opinion rules, that's the final verdict. People STILL believe Te'o was in on the hoax. ****ing crazy...

 

[palinurus]

I absolutely agree with you on that. Are all ND fans like this? Of course not. Most aren't, I'm sure. Most of the ones on IE don't appear to be that way either. The problem is that you certainly seem to have a much higher percentage who are than most schools, though. That definitely plays on the public's and media's perception that too many of your fans hear no evil and see no evil and are blind to any problems that you do have.

The reality is that most ND fans DO believe their school IS a little different and better. That's different than saying they think they are perfect. I don't know any ND fan who thinks that. I just think you are wrong if you think all schools are the same with regard to wrongdoing, the type of student they try to bring in, and how they respond to it. I mean, you can argue that the Richts of the world are more right, more Christian, more whatever, for trying to straighten out criminals, but that's different than saying everyone is the same. If you said, "yeah, ND is better than most and do try to bring in a better element, but ND players (and students) aren't perfect", I don't think you'd get a huge fight, by and large.

 

[Bishop2b5]

You. Are. A. Joke.

and for the record I stand on mountain tops, biatch!!!!!

Want to know just how right I am? Look at the reactions from several of you. You've gone ballistic and gotten mad, not because someone has trashed your school (which I haven't), but dared to say it and your players aren't perfect and above reproach. If that's not enough, simply Google the subject and see how many others from the Washington Post to the NYT, NPR, USA Today, SI, ESPN and countless others say exactly the same thing I am. You guys have a fine school with outstanding academics, a good football team, probably better ethics and behavior from your players than most other teams, but perfect you're not and pretending nothing bad ever happens at ND and your players never do anything wrong is ridiculous.

 

[palinurus]

Want to know just how right I am? Look at the reactions from several of you. You've gone ballistic and gotten mad, not because someone has trashed your school (which I haven't), but dared to say it and your players aren't perfect and above reproach. If that's not enough, simply Google the subject and see how many others from the Washington Post to the NYT, NPR, USA Today, SI, ESPN and countless others say exactly the same thing I am. You guys have a fine school with outstanding academics, a good football team, probably better ethics and behavior from your players than most other teams, but perfect you're not and pretending nothing bad ever happens at ND and your players never do anything wrong is ridiculous.

I don't really care about the media bashing ND takes. We're used to that and it proves nothing; probably proves the contrary. But the last sentence is essentially true, except I would replace "ridiculous" with "an overstatement." I would also remove "probably."

 

[BeauBenken]

Bishop, are you going to respond to Lax's post or are you just going to keep arguing that we all think ND players are saints and keep referencing the Seeberg incident?

I for one would like to see some of the unnamed incidents you keep refering to. Being young to following news, there's a lot I'm sure I've missed.

 

[PraetorianND]

Because most of you aren't sanctimonious elitist bastards. I've already gotten two PM's from regular ND fans in here about this thread, both supporting me knocking a few of you off your pedastal for being so naive and sanctimonious. Most of your fans aren't naive and don't believe every ND player is a saint and ND can do no wrong. A few of you do though and just have a meltdown when anyone suggests otherwise. You're like radical religious fanatics who call every other religion an abomination, but go nuts if someone offers even the slightest criticism of yours and want to start screaming "HERESY" and burning people at the stake.

Right. We can make fun of our own when they mess up (see Carlo's "people", Tommy, Floyd, etc). The difference is, those people were CHARGED and CONVICTED with crimes that require actual EVIDENCE and the standard of evidence that they be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a real court room. I mean, if you want to start reading between the lines and play the cops, judge, and jury then go for it. I will too.

Bama pays all of it's players and they use steroids. I'm basing this on the accusation that Bama players used deer antler spray. If they used that then they probably used other stuff. They also get paid, because of 'Ol Miss's class and they're in the same conference. Bama players have TAs do all of their work for them because I can tell by their interviews that they can't speak, let alone read, write, or do any of other kind of academic work.

.... This kind of stuff is BS and unfair to both us and you. If you don't want us to do it to Bama then don't do it to us. I agree that it was tragic what happened with Lizzy but we probably shouldn't be crucifying anyone unless we know what happened.

 

[irishfanjho15]

The reality is that most ND fans DO believe their school IS a little different and better. That's different than saying they think they are perfect. I don't know any ND fan who thinks that. I just think you are wrong if you think all schools are the same with regard to wrongdoing, the type of student they try to bring in, and how they respond to it. I mean, you can argue that the Richts of the world are more right, more Christian, more whatever, for trying to straighten out criminals, but that's different than saying everyone is the same. If you said, "yeah, ND is better than most and do try to bring in a better element, but ND players (and students) aren't perfect", I don't think you'd get a huge fight, by and large.

On the nose. I don't really care for Bishop, not that he cares. But it is becoming more and more clear that he is a troll, whether our mods want to keep acting like he is or isn't. He purposely pushes a pro-SEC agenda whilst taking gilded shots at ND (and the ND fans on this board) in the process. Had he approached the situation like you stated I would have just classified him as an afterthought. Instead he is quickly approaching ALLGATOR status and most 'regular posters' on this site agree. Just like ALLGATOR was an SECrazy, as is Bishop.

But to each his own.

 

[PraetorianND]

Want to know just how right I am? Look at the reactions from several of you. You've gone ballistic and gotten mad, not because someone has trashed your school (which I haven't), but dared to say it and your players aren't perfect and above reproach. If that's not enough, simply Google the subject and see how many others from the Washington Post to the NYT, NPR, USA Today, SI, ESPN and countless others say exactly the same thing I am. You guys have a fine school with outstanding academics, a good football team, probably better ethics and behavior from your players than most other teams, but perfect you're not and pretending nothing bad ever happens at ND and your players never do anything wrong is ridiculous.

Nobody said anything of the sort. We have one poster on here who has Rees's MUGSHOT as his avatar. We are all very well aware of our schools issues because when we have them they are plastered all over the media because people love to rip ND and assume we think we're better than everyone. Which we are not nor do we claim to be.

The difference between our school and others? We expect more from our players. Period.

 

[pkt77242]

Not every other school. We like Stanford. Respect for Vandy. I'm sure there's a couple others out there too.

Why do you like hanging out here if you find us such sanctimonious elitist bastards?

Go back to where you came from. Maybe they haven't seen the picture of your hot *** wife yet. You know, the one with the auburn/green/blue eyes that your step daughter can't discern from the American Apparel models on the internet.

Good grief. How long have we let your troll *** slip under the radar?

I will add Duke as well (I could also add Northwestern and Cal Berkley).

 

[Bishop2b5]

The reality is that most ND fans DO believe their school IS a little different and better. That's different than saying they think they are perfect. I don't know any ND fan who thinks that. I just think you are wrong if you think all schools are the same with regard to wrongdoing, the type of student they try to bring in, and how they respond to it. I mean, you can argue that the Richts of the world are more right, more Christian, more whatever, for trying to straighten out criminals, but that's different than saying everyone is the same. If you said, "yeah, ND is better than most and do try to bring in a better element, but ND players (and students) aren't perfect", I don't think you'd get a huge fight, by and large.

Again, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I believe you DO try to set higher standards than most schools, recruit a different type of athlete, and hold them to that standard. Do you succeed 100% of the time? Of course not. Nobody expects that sort of perfection, just that you strive towards it. I definitely don't think all programs are the same with regard to wrongdoing, the type of student they try to bring in, and how they respond to it. How ND attempts to do it is admirable and you have every right to feel you may be a little different and better.

My point was that a few of your fans get a little too sanctimonious and holier than thou about how perfect your school is, how saintly your players are, think almost every other school is a lawless bastion of evil where all the players are criminals and don't go to class, and can't conceive of the idea that any ND player has ever done anything wrong. I just noted that while they were trashing other schools and players, ND's had just about as many issues the past several years too.

 

[irishfanjho15]

Want to know just how right I am? Look at the reactions from several of you. You've gone ballistic and gotten mad, not because someone has trashed your school (which I haven't), but dared to say it and your players aren't perfect and above reproach. If that's not enough, simply Google the subject and see how many others from the Washington Post to the NYT, NPR, USA Today, SI, ESPN and countless others say exactly the same thing I am. You guys have a fine school with outstanding academics, a good football team, probably better ethics and behavior from your players than most other teams, but perfect you're not and pretending nothing bad ever happens at ND and your players never do anything wrong is ridiculous.

A lot of bad stuff happens at ND and everywhere. I never said anything to the contrary. If you took it that way then I'm sorry. I'm not mad, you just continue to take gilded shots at ND and our fans on here, whom I consider to be my friends. You're a skilled troll, I'll give you that.

 

[PraetorianND]

Again, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I believe you DO try to set higher standards than most schools, recruit a different type of athlete, and hold them to that standard. Do you succeed 100% of the time? Of course not. Nobody expects that sort of perfection, just that you strive towards it. I definitely don't think all programs are the same with regard to wrongdoing, the type of student they try to bring in, and how they respond to it. How ND attempts to do it is admirable and you have every right to feel you may be a little different and better.

My point was that a few of your fans get a little too sanctimonious and holier than thou about how perfect your school is, how saintly your players are, think almost every other school is a lawless bastion of evil where all the players are criminals and don't go to class, and can't conceive of the idea that any ND player has ever done anything wrong. I just noted that while they were trashing other schools and players, ND's had just about as many issues the past several years too.

I'll take this over what I see from other fan bases.

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[Bishop2b5]

Bishop, are you going to respond to Lax's post or are you just going to keep arguing that we all think ND players are saints and keep referencing the Seeberg incident?

I for one would like to see some of the unnamed incidents you keep refering to. Being young to following news, there's a lot I'm sure I've missed.

I think I missed Lax's post. Not trying to ignore it. I haven't mentioned any unnamed incidents, and I'm not going to stoop to dragging out a long list of charges and accusations. You can Google ND football player arrests and see several incidents. There are a few serious accusations and charges, but most are the types of things you get from most football programs: underage drinking, DUI, disorderly conduct, etc. - normal college kids acting like college kids.

Seriously, I AM NOT trying to trash ND or portray your players as thugs or troll your board. I just got tired of watching a small handful of your fans trash other schools and their players while acting incredibly sanctimonius and naive about the same sorts of things at ND. You guys do as good of a job as most (and probably better) about recruiting good kids and holding them to a high standard, but they aren't saints and there have been quite a few incidents. If you harshly criticize others and pretend to be above such things, don't be surprised if someone points out a few examples where you aren't. You know what they say about throwing rocks when you live in a glass house.

 

[Bishop2b5]

A lot of bad stuff happens at ND and everywhere. I never said anything to the contrary. If you took it that way then I'm sorry. I'm not mad, you just continue to take gilded shots at ND and our fans on here, whom I consider to be my friends. You're a skilled troll, I'll give you that.

I don't want to offend anyone and that isn't my intention to do so or to criticize ND. I apologize to anyone who was offended. I really am not trolling.

You may not have said nothing bad ever happens at ND. There are a few though who certainly have claimed or insinuated as much though and went ballistic when that assertion or attitude was questioned and I mentioned several incidents that showed otherwise.

 

[BeauBenken]

I think I missed Lax's post. Not trying to ignore it. I haven't mentioned any unnamed incidents, and I'm not going to stoop to dragging out a long list of charges and accusations. You can Google ND football player arrests and see several incidents. There are a few serious accusations and charges, but most are the types of things you get from most football programs: underage drinking, DUI, disorderly conduct, etc. - normal college kids acting like college kids.

Seriously, I AM NOT trying to trash ND or portray your players as thugs or troll your board. I just got tired of watching a small handful of your fans trash other schools and their players while acting incredibly sanctimonius and naive about the same sorts of things at ND. You guys do as good of a job as most (and probably better) about recruiting good kids and holding them to a high standard, but they aren't saints and there have been quite a few incidents. If you harshly criticize others and pretend to be above such things, don't be surprised if someone points out a few examples where you aren't. You know what they say about throwing rocks when you live in a glass house.

The thing with this is that in both the rape accusations you bring up, both charges were dropped. And in one of those cases, "the gangrape", even though the charges would eventually be dropped, the school expelled all three players involved (Donald Dykes, Lorenzo Crawford, and Abram Elam.) The funniest part of you mentioning that one is the guy who signed Abram Elam to the NFL after the incident was none other than Nick Saban.

Saying the school hasn't taken appropriate action in the past is crazy. The school has expelled or suspended athletes for MUCH less than that. So much so that fans used to become angry with how strict Notre Dame was.

No one is or can or has argued your mentioning of DUIs and disorderly conducts and what not.

 

[IrishLax]

I think I missed Lax's post. Not trying to ignore it. I haven't mentioned any unnamed incidents, and I'm not going to stoop to dragging out a long list of charges and accusations. You can Google ND football player arrests and see several incidents. There are a few serious accusations and charges, but most are the types of things you get from most football programs: underage drinking, DUI, disorderly conduct, etc. - normal college kids acting like college kids.

Seriously, I AM NOT trying to trash ND or portray your players as thugs or troll your board. I just got tired of watching a small handful of your fans trash other schools and their players while acting incredibly sanctimonius and naive about the same sorts of things at ND. You guys do as good of a job as most (and probably better) about recruiting good kids and holding them to a high standard, but they aren't saints and there have been quite a few incidents. If you harshly criticize others and pretend to be above such things, don't be surprised if someone points out a few examples where you aren't. You know what they say about throwing rocks when you live in a glass house.

It's post #184.

The thing is... I totally agree with your general premise that ND students are just typical college kids prone to typical college problems. They aren't special and they aren't saints.

I am starting to take issue though with a couple of your statements... such as:

I guess all those newspapers and magazines made their stories up, the girls all lied about being assaulted and raped, the writers who wrote about it are all hacks

This is a classic example of how the hyperbole/spin has completely blown crap out of proportion. "The girls" aka 1 person (Lizzy) and 1 girl as real as Lennay Kekua for all we know. "The writers are all hacks"... no, but the 85% of them that gave a fair account get no traction and the ones with personal bias and a checkered past of making up facts (Henneberger) are the ones the detractors point to. "All those newspapers and magazines made their stories up"... well, the Chicago Tribune had to retract some of their original coverage... and they spent about 2 full months digging like crazy and got nothing. The only other outlets to publish anything were all OPINION pieces... and the DA gave a very clear statement that I linked to you pointing out the issues with the accuser/why the accused would not face any charges.

Allegations don't mean ANYTHING. See: Duke lacrosse, Brian Banks, the two Texas football players recently, etc. There are literally thousands upon thousands of cases of false accusations in the United States. And that is what is aggravating about some of the rhetoric you're using to illustrate your points.

The truth is "girl accuses boy of briefly touching her breast" doesn't sell papers. "Girl with anxiety issues and depression OD's on her medication" doesn't sell papers. "Girl's account of brief breast touching doesn't match with forensic evidence/phone logs" doesn't sell papers.

"Those sanctimonious tools you hate who pontificate about having high moral standards are to blame for a VICTIM of SEXUAL ASSAULT committing SUICIDE!" does sell papers. Accuracy be damned. Just like Duke lacrosse... those guys were convicted in the court of public opinion before one shred of evidence came out... and if the accuser wasn't psychotic and a criminal a lot of innocent people could've gone to jail. Never mind that there is no logical connection between the police taking a week to question the player and Seeberg's death (as Seeberg had NO IDEA when she killed herself whether they had or had not talked to the player as she hadn't once even called to checkup on the status of the proceeding... yeah, wrap your head around that logic... the police were actually waiting on Seeberg to clarify her inaccuracies in her statements [especially with regards to the "phone call" that, you know, NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED] before talking to the player...)... it was all ND's fault for not moving at the speed of light in a case where the accused was no flight risk. Never mind that there is ZERO corroborating evidence or reason to believe anything the accuser said... the player MUST be guilty of everything.

It's just a total crock of crap to anyone that spends 5 minutes researching the facts. But if you're naive enough to just read Henneberger and take it as gospel... well... *shrug* I guess that's your choice. There are a lot of ill-informed people in the world and I sure as hell can't help them all.