Marcus Freeman named Dick Corbett Head Football Coach

[Luckylucci]

Kelly had the longest active winning streak, in the entire country, against unranked teams but it was his fault Freeman lost to two terrible teams, lol. Ok.

I hate this conversation so much by now because both sides ultimately end up sounding ridiculous.

 

[NDQuebec]

He doesn't take sole blame by any means, but he shares in some of the blame. When you're only scoring 14 points offensively at home and over half your starters are Sophomores and Freshmen...that's a recruiting gap. It was a ball being dropped by Long and BK in those '19 and '20 classes. Experienced, talented upperclassmen don't lose that game.

You just can't blame a previous coach for losing to two teams with vastly inferior talent at home.

 

[NDQuebec]

As with most things, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Maybe if posters stop repeating the #5 ranking and Marshall/Stanford losses as reasons to typecast Freeman while putting Kelly on a pedestal, there’d be less bickering.

Can the damn season start already?

To be clear, I never used the number 5 ranking. I don't typecast Freeman and I surely don't put Kelly on a pedestal. I'm just having a hard time pointing out that Kelly is not to blame for losing to Marshall and Stanford.

 

[Luckylucci]

As with most things, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Maybe if posters stop repeating the #5 ranking and Marshall/Stanford losses as reasons to typecast Freeman while putting Kelly on a pedestal, there’d be less bickering.

Can the damn season start already?

Yes.

You just can't blame a previous coach for losing to two teams with vastly inferior talent at home.

And, yes.

Regardless of one's opinion on how the roster was left relative to other ND teams. ND still had more talent than the two teams that beat them. Considerably more than one of them.

 

[Irish#1]

This is fair. Freeman and the team absolutely should have beat Marshall and Stanford, but the point is past kicking a dead horse. Heck, he probably should have beat OSU. I don’t think Kelly would beat Clemson the way Freeman did either. I also question whether or not he would have won the bowl game.

Yep, time to put this horse to rest.

 

[Irishdrunk]

I hate wading into this debate because I view it as pointless, but LSU beat a bad Auburn team by 4, a bad Arkansas team by 3, and a bad Florida team by 10 - and also got handed their ass by a bad A&M team.

These things cut both ways is all I'm sayin'.

Well the end of season rankings speaks the strongest argument.

 

[Rack Em]

Yep, time to put this horse to rest.

I say that about ACamp’s old lady all the time

 

[stlnd01]

The offensive recruiting for a couple of years there was really weak, and so we had very few upperclass. That’s on BK

As with most things, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Maybe if posters stop repeating the #5 ranking and Marshall/Stanford losses as reasons to typecast Freeman while putting Kelly on a pedestal, there’d be less bickering.

Can the damn season start already?

It's really just one poster.
But yes this is a silly conversation, a poor, beaten horse who should be out in pasture. A new season approaches and we can judge all on their merits.

 

[forkbeard3777]

I hate wading into this debate because I view it as pointless, but LSU beat a bad Auburn team by 4, a bad Arkansas team by 3, and a bad Florida team by 10 - and also got handed their ass by a bad A&M team.

These things cut both ways is all I'm sayin'.

— Auburn is always an extremely difficult place to play and is a rivalry. They weren’t good for their standards, sure.

— Supposedly, Jayden Daniels had the flu. But, I agree, we were awful and fortunate to win that one. For whatever reason, LSU struggles with Arkansas. They always have. Arkansas treats it as their Super Bowl, and LSU (players and fans) are largely disinterested. Playing it late in the year never helps either. I hate that game.

— Winning at Florida by double digits is never a “bad win.”

— A&M has talent. We all know that. They are poorly coached. I (choking down vomit) think they’ll be much improved this year with the addition of Petrino.

 

[forkbeard3777]

This is fair. Freeman and the team absolutely should have beat Marshall and Stanford, but the point is past kicking a dead horse. Heck, he probably should have beat OSU. I don’t think Kelly would beat Clemson the way Freeman did either. I also question whether or not he would have won the bowl game.

Beat OSU as in Ohio State or the Oklahoma State bowl game? Big difference.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Thanks for enlightening us. Now we all know that it's Kelly's fault that Notre Dame lost to Marshall and Stanford. That is surely due to Kelly's recruits having inferior talent to both teams. Can you enlighten us more by telling us when losing to inferior teams will no longer be Kelly's fault? This year? Next year? What a bunch of hogwash.

Freeman might become a great coach, nobody knows yet. But he made a few newbie errors so far, which is normal for a new head coach with zero head coaching experience. He will surely learn from them. But to place the blame for the losses to Marshall and Stanford solely on Kelly and absolving Freeman of all blame is just plain silly, or, as you say, complete and utter bullshit.

I never said it was solely on Kelly, but to ignore his contributions as callously as you and others on here have, or to make the outrageous claim that Kelly would never lose to a Marshall or Stanford, is complete and utter bullshit.

This is revisionist history to a T.

The only reason ND scrapes by at 11-1 in 2021 is because Jack Coan bailed Kelly out of some major clunkers against inferior teams like Florida State, Virginia Tech and friggin' Toledo. Hell, Toledo needed to give Kelly an assist to pull that one off.

Last year, ND was even less talented, again, thanks to Kelly's inconsistent recruiting efforts. Poor LB and safety play courtesy of recruiting both positions so poorly in the '20 and '21 classes. An overall lack of size at DT, because they kept going after the same guy.

Kelly could've pushed harder for a better QB in '20 than Drew Pyne, but he stuck with him. There was no Jack Coan to bail ND out. That's the key point you're missing.

ND played like crap in the first half of last season, just like they played like crap in the first half of 2021. Difference was QB and a few difference makers like Kyren Williams and Kyle Hamilton. It'd have been nice if somebody recruited a few more difference makers to replace him, because they were the difference between 11-1 and 8-4. I don't know how you can argue otherwise when the film doesn't lie.

 

[Crazy Balki]

We didn't play FSU last year and we beat them in 2021. FSU last year was significantly better than Stanford and Marshall.

ND was significantly more talented than Stanford and Marshall. I would have expected we win those games and have two tough tight games vs Clemson and USC winning one but not blowing one out. In the end we go 10-2. Typical Kelly season since 2017.

Bruh, Florida State lost to Jacksonville State a week later and finished 5-7.

To claim they were "significantly better" is a dubious claim at best. They were awful and had it not been for Kyle Hamilton, we probably lose that game.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Kelly had the longest active winning streak, in the entire country, against unranked teams but it was his fault Freeman lost to two terrible teams, lol. Ok.

I hate this conversation so much by now because both sides ultimately end up sounding ridiculous.

The problem is that "it's all Kelly's fault that Freeman lost to two terrible teams" isn't the argument. It never was.

The whole thing has warped into Freeman is without fault for those losses, because somebody rolled with the narrative that we're pinning this whole thing on Kelly.

I argued with the notion that Kelly wouldn't have lost to Stanford/Marshall, which given historical examples, is a pretty laughable claim. Kelly earned a good chunk of the blame for how 2022 unfolded.

Kelly had the longest active winning streak, but Kelly also had recruited fairly well during that run. That was not the case recently and Freeman had to deal with the fallout. I think Freeman needed to grow and develop as a head coach, but let's be real here. Kelly didn't beat Toledo because of his veteran coaching savvy. He beat them because they handed them the win on a silver platter. He beat Florida State because Kyle Hamilton discovered the ability to teleport from one side of the field to the other. He beat Virginia Tech, because Jack Coan hauled the offenses mangled corpse on a 2 minute drill to tie the game.

I commend Kelly for his run of winning games he should in '17 to '20, but '21 was different. The cracks began to appear and without the safety nets of a vet QB or an all-world safety, they were far more apparent in '22.

 

[greyhammer90]

I'm so bored

 

[T-Boone]

Crazy:

1. So we lost of Marshall and an awful Stanford team because we had lesser talent? GMAFB.
2. You do remember MF and TR discussed taking a Transfer QB prior to last season and decided not to. THEY DIDN"T EVEN TRY. This mistake is theirs. They own that.
3. "Kelly inherited a good QB via the portal...." Have you been drinking??? LOL. Didn't know you can inherit a player from the portal. No Kelly turned that program around quickly.

I really think some of that was on swarbrick forcing Rees in Freeman. Freeman needed a reallly experience QB coach OC. Rees was inexperienced and had a demonstrated history of poor evaluation of QBs.

 

[TorontoGold]

I'm so bored

The atom is being broken here, I think we'll finally figure out that Kelly reached his peak at ND and Freeman was fired for his recruiting chops....puts gun in mouth.

There should be a pinned post that acknowledges this so the schizophrenic "omg Freeman is inexperienced butttttt Kelly didn't recruit!" lines can be retired.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

 

[ulukinatme]

I really think some of that was on swarbrick forcing Rees in Freeman. Freeman needed a reallly experience QB coach OC. Rees was inexperienced and had a demonstrated history of poor evaluation of QBs.

As soon as BK took off Rees landed Minchey, Carr, and Hartman. Sure seems like BK had quite the say in QB recruiting while Rees was green. Show me an ND OC or QB coach with a better haul in a matter of months, or even in the last 25 years. Closest on paper would be Clausen and then Crist.

 

[ulukinatme]

You just can't blame a previous coach for losing to two teams with vastly inferior talent at home.

Did you miss the part in the very first sentence where I said "He doesn't take sole blame by any means, but he shares in some of the blame." I then go on to explain the reasoning.

 

[Crazy Balki]

I really think some of that was on swarbrick forcing Rees in Freeman. Freeman needed a reallly experience QB coach OC. Rees was inexperienced and had a demonstrated history of poor evaluation of QBs.

I question how much of that was on Tommy.

The position coach has some leniency on who they go after, but I doubt that's really the case for QB. Kelly and Long weren't going to leave it up to Rees to pick who leads their class. Long wanted his guy to run his offense. I can't say for certain, but I see QB as a situation where the HC and OC say "jump" and the QB coach says "how high" for who they go after and ultimately land. The first true QB recruited to run Rees' offense was Buchner. I guess we'll see how his story unfolds at Bama. The talent is certainly there, which isn't something I could say for Pyne or even going back as far as Book, despite getting a lot out of his limited ceiling.

I think QB development was adequate, but the talent just hasn't been there. Again, I think that falls more on Kelly and Long, because they were his boss. They evaluated and began recruiting Pyne before Rees was even hired.

If Nick Saban wants you, you have to be doing something right.

 

[PutuporShutup]

They were a good team, but certainly not a playoff caliber team. As a broken team we hung with them for most the game despite giving them some easy turnovers. They were good, but if we weren't such a mess in the beginning of 2021 Cincinnati would have had no business beating us at home.

I agree we should have been better prepared and won, but they were a more overall better team than Clemson or usc last year. Not Ohio state.

 

[PutuporShutup]

This is fair. Freeman and the team absolutely should have beat Marshall and Stanford, but the point is past kicking a dead horse. Heck, he probably should have beat OSU. I don’t think Kelly would beat Clemson the way Freeman did either. I also question whether or not he would have won the bowl game.

Kelly did not play a single team worse than South Carolina in any bowl game while at nd.

 

[TorontoGold]

Kelly did not play a single team worse than South Carolina in any bowl game while at nd.

2010/2011/2013/2014/2019 ?

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[Crazy Balki]

I agree we should have been better prepared and won, but they were a more overall better team than Clemson or usc last year. Not Ohio state.

Last year, Clemson ranked 5th in team talent composite, with 12 5-stars and a 61.4% blue-chip ratio on roster.

ND was 10th. They had a slightly higher blue-chip ratio at 64.6%, however they only 2 had 5-stars and overall points favored Clemson.

USC was right behind ND at 11th, however, one team had Caleb Williams, while the other had Drew Pyne. We can talk about how Pyne played well all day long, but that was because USC committed fully to stopping the run, basically forcing Pyne to win the game, which he couldn't. Meanwhile, Caleb Williams was Caleb Williams. Having an overwhelming QB advantage is the great equalizer, or can even trump an overall superior roster.

 

[INLaw]

Kelly did not play a single team worse than South Carolina in any bowl game while at nd.

Rutgers twice?

 

[PutuporShutup]

2010/2011/2013/2014/2019 ?

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Nope, would have been true if South Carolina wasn’t without 13ish starters.

 

[stlnd01]

Nope, would have been true if South Carolina wasn’t without 13ish starters.

And how many starters were we with without?
Mayer, Foskey, Pyne, Hart, Joseph...

Even South Carolina's second string is better than Rutgers, and probably that Miami team in 2010 who never wanted to leave the locker room it was so "cold."

 

[Crazy Balki]

Kelly did not play a single team worse than South Carolina in any bowl game while at nd.

Is this a joke?

Miami 2010?
Florida State 2011?
Rutgers 2013?
LSU 2014?
Iowa State 2019?

I'd put last year's Carolina squad over any of them.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Nope, would have been true if South Carolina wasn’t without 13ish starters.

Good lord. Yeah, because ND had all hands on deck...

How about you take your own advice.

You put up your garbage evidence.

Now it's time to read the latter half of your namesake.

 

[forkbeard3777]

Miami 2010?
Florida State 2011?
Rutgers 2013?
LSU 2014?
Iowa State 2019?

I'd put last year's Carolina squad over any of them.

Comparing opponents throughout many years is so subjective. What’s the point?

South Carolina did have many starters out (ND too). Just another example of how college football has changed for the worst.

That said, some of ND fans’ savior, Buchner, single handedly kept them in the game.

 

[PutuporShutup]

And how many starters were we with without?
Mayer, Foskey, Pyne, Hart, Joseph...

Even South Carolina's second string is better than Rutgers, and probably that Miami team in 2010 who never wanted to leave the locker room it was so "cold."

it’s not about our team, my comment was on that South Carolina team being worst we’ve played in a bowl game.
They had DEs playing wr in the game.