JUCOS!?!

[Buster Bluth]

The standard reason given for no JUCOs relates to their credits not transferring and an inability to graduate in 4 years. While I agree with you that it basically equates to "academic elitism" at the sake of football, it's rather consistent and this is a departure from that.

What's so bad, from Notre Dame's perspective, about having the kid start from square one as if he were a true Freshman? Assuming he filled the voids in his high school application (ie calculus, foreign language, show GPA effort, etc) during a year at a Junior College, what the hell is the problem? It's not like a JUCO is worse than plenty of high schools Kelly and Co can take kids from directly out of high school.

 

[ResLife Hero]

What's so bad, from Notre Dame's perspective, about having the kid start from square one as if he were a true Freshman? Assuming he filled the voids in his high school application (ie calculus, foreign language, show GPA effort, etc) during a year at a Junior College, what the hell is the problem? It's not like a JUCO is worse than plenty of high schools Kelly and Co can take kids from directly out of high school.

ND accepts very little outside credit for classes they teach. They might view the work at a JuCo as answering the questions that surrounded the prospect during HS, but the actual coursework towards a degree is a different story. Plus, ND only offers a 4 year path toward undergraduate graduation so the 5th year players are all grad students, and a JuCo transfer would be expected to keep that same timeline which is nearly impossible if a year of credit doesn't transfer in.

 

[IrishLax]

What's so bad, from Notre Dame's perspective, about having the kid start from square one as if he were a true Freshman? Assuming he filled the voids in his high school application (ie calculus, foreign language, show GPA effort, etc) during a year at a Junior College, what the hell is the problem? It's not like a JUCO is worse than plenty of high schools Kelly and Co can take kids from directly out of high school.

OK so the problem, which is stupid, is that you come in from JUCO academically as a soph. And then Notre Dame isn't going to accept credits from a JUCO, for the same reason I didn't get to use 20+ of my AP credits.

So you're not graduating in 3 years while playing football even with summer sessions. But, if you can get him to be a January enrollee then you have 7 semesters to do 8 of work... which seems reasonable.

 

[Cackalacky]

OK so the problem, which is stupid, is that you come in from JUCO academically as a soph. And then Notre Dame isn't going to accept credits from a JUCO, for the same reason I didn't get to use 20+ of my AP credits.

So you're not graduating in 3 years while playing football even with summer sessions. But, if you can get him to be a January enrollee then you have 7 semesters to do 8 of work... which seems reasonable.

You could not use 20 AP creds?

 

[Grahambo]

OK so the problem, which is stupid, is that you come in from JUCO academically as a soph. And then Notre Dame isn't going to accept credits from a JUCO, for the same reason I didn't get to use 20+ of my AP credits.



So you're not graduating in 3 years while playing football even with summer sessions. But, if you can get him to be a January enrollee then you have 7 semesters to do 8 of work... which seems reasonable.

Past my time so strictly curious but how does ND handle military veterans?

 

[IrishLax]

You could not use 20 AP creds?

It's hard to remember the specifics but I took 8 AP courses and a couple post-AP courses in computer science and scored a 4 or 5 on every exam. The only credits that I actually ended up using were my calc credits. Couldn't use stats for engineering, history credits were all redundant or didn't matter because I had registered for other courses that satisfied free electives and etc. etc.

How does this apply to JUCOs? Not much, but basically it's a reflection of how hard ND makes it to use any credits towards a degree that aren't from a class they taught or from a 4-year University they respect where you got a good grade. I know there are ways to use more, but I think it's case-by-case and major dependent.

This is in contrast to a lot of other places that will accept tons of AP or JUCO/community college transfer credits. I know of people firsthand graduating from places like Penn State in 2 or 2.5 years with lots of incoming credits... I imagine most large state schools are like that... ND doesn't operate that way.

 

[IrishLax]

Past my time so strictly curious but how does ND handle military veterans?

Really, really good question. No clue.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Past my time so strictly curious but how does ND handle military veterans?

Not 100% but I'd be shocked if they got any credit. But if you're 100% GI bill eligible, it looks like they hook you up with the YRP.

 

[BMT]

To those who say we don't need RBs. ---2 injuries and they are screwed-see Linebackers this year. This is not unrealistic to have 2 or even 3 injured. I think you need 4 or 5. Also, would it not be nice to have a power back at times, ala ROBERT HUGHES?

 

[NDWorld247]

JuCo recruits just aren't realistic options for ND. Hopefully it works out for Smith, but he's a very rare case.

JuCo players fall into one of two categories coming out of HS...non-qualifiers or qualifiers. I don't know if there is any data on % of players in each category, but I'd estimate that 90-95% of division 1 caliber JuCo players are non-qualifiers.

Non-qualifiers must spend a minimum of three semesters (i.e. two seasons) at a JuCo AND graduate before transferring to a 4-year school. They are attending JuCo because they couldn't maintain a 2.0 GPA in "core classes" during HS, had a 2.0 GPA or higher but didn't score very high on SAT/ACT, or, in some cases, didn't take the necessary core classes (i.e. their guidance counselor/school sucks). I think it's safe to say non-qualifiers are not very good academic fits at ND and, even if they could handle it academically, it would be near impossible for them to graduate from ND in the 3 years of eligibility they'd have remaining.

Qualifiers only need one semester at a JuCo before they can transfer to a 4-year school. Unfortunately, division 1 caliber players who qualify academically right out of HS and still choose to attend JuCo are few and far between. Qualifiers are at JuCo because they didn't have any offers coming out of HS (e.g. Aaron Rodgers), had some low-level offers and decided to try and earn a better offer, or, they barely qualified and still weren't accepted into their school of choice (doesn't happen often). I think it's worth letting JuCo coaches know ND is interested in evaluating 1st year/freshmen qualifiers, but I highly doubt it would yield many legitimate options on a year to year basis.

There's a third category of JuCo player and that's one that starts at a 4-year school and transfers to JuCo for whatever reason. They are subject to NCAA transfer rules and must spend at least a calendar year at the JuCo AND graduate from that JuCo. They are very similar to Non-qualifiers, but their credits from the 4-year school may have a better chance of being accepted by ND.

I don't have a problem with ND's policy on not accepting transfer credits from JuCo schools. JuCo classes aren't anywhere near as challenging as I imagine ND's classes are. It may be "academic elitism", but it's completely justified IMO. If I were a ND alum, I'd be proud of the university for considering their classes to be a higher standard than a JuCo. No offense to the JuCo eduation, but ND offers one of the best educations in the world. The gap between ND and JuCo is as wide on the field as it is in the classroom.

Re: RB recruiting, going into 2015 with three scholarship RBs is not smart. We need two in this class.

 

[stlnd01]

Qualifiers only need one semester at a JuCo before they can transfer to a 4-year school.
...

There's a third category of JuCo player and that's one that starts at a 4-year school and transfers to JuCo for whatever reason. They are subject to NCAA transfer rules and must spend at least a calendar year at the JuCo AND graduate from that JuCo. They are very similar to Non-qualifiers, but their credits from the 4-year school may have a better chance of being accepted by ND.

Was a little unclear from that Fresno Bee story whether Smith enrolled at Southeast Louisiana and then transferred out (putting him in the third category) or if he bailed before actually enrolling (making him a "qualifier," I'd assume?)
Either way, an academically-inclined JUCO in position to transfer in with enough time left on the clock to graduate with his class - at a position, by the way, of considerable need -- certainly is a rare case.
Hopefully it works out, but I doubt this portends some sea change in our stance towards JUCO transfers. I'm fine with that.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I wonder how often this happens. I know Aaron Rodgers chose the JuCo route over playing low-level ball or being a walk-on.

Not as rare as you might think. Lots of kids just aren't all that coming out of high school, but a year or two at a JUCO, small school, or even as a walk on at a big school, and they become All-American/NFL material. Look at any NFL roster and you'll find some starters (and not a few pro bowlers) who were virtual nobodies coming out of high school and didn't bloom until later.

 

[NDWorld247]

Was a little unclear from that Fresno Bee story whether Smith enrolled at Southeast Louisiana and then transferred out (putting him in the third category) or if he bailed before actually enrolling (making him a "qualifier," I'd assume?)
Either way, an academically-inclined JUCO in position to transfer in with enough time left on the clock to graduate with his class - at a position, by the way, of considerable need -- certainly is a rare case.
Hopefully it works out, but I doubt this portends some sea change in our stance towards JUCO transfers. I'm fine with that.

My understanding is he's a qualifier who never enrolled at SE Louisiana and would be eligible to transfer after this semester.

 

[dublinirish]

Was a little unclear from that Fresno Bee story whether Smith enrolled at Southeast Louisiana and then transferred out (putting him in the third category) or if he bailed before actually enrolling (making him a "qualifier," I'd assume?)
Either way, an academically-inclined JUCO in position to transfer in with enough time left on the clock to graduate with his class - at a position, by the way, of considerable need -- certainly is a rare case.
Hopefully it works out, but I doubt this portends some sea change in our stance towards JUCO transfers. I'm fine with that.

im just guessing but he probably showed up for summer workouts but then left before attending any classes?

 

[TheTurningPoint]

Was a little unclear from that Fresno Bee story whether Smith enrolled at Southeast Louisiana and then transferred out (putting him in the third category) or if he bailed before actually enrolling (making him a "qualifier," I'd assume?)
Either way, an academically-inclined JUCO in position to transfer in with enough time left on the clock to graduate with his class - at a position, by the way, of considerable need -- certainly is a rare case.
Hopefully it works out, but I doubt this portends some sea change in our stance towards JUCO transfers. I'm fine with that.

He transferred before classes began in the fall.

 

[Cackalacky]

This looks to me like Kelly getting opportunities to show the school it can be done like with Riggs. I don't think it will all of a sudden change anything but now there are two pathways to bring someone into the school to play football with the School being at least comfortable with it on a case by case basis.

The trick is finding the right guy. Riggs was certainly a good choice and it stinks he injured himself.