Investigation Results

[IrishSteelhead]

All this thread has done is create two to check now. I smell a thread Civil War brewing, with sides being chosen by sundown....

 

[irishog77]

All this thread has done is create two to check now. I smell a thread Civil War brewing, with sides being chosen by sundown....

I choose this thread.



Line in the sand.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

The other (lesser) bad news is that if Moore is out, he's appeared in every single game in 2011, 2012, and 2013. So if they're going full nuclear on vacating wins then it could reach back to 29 of them.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Wait, I'm confused.

Which thread should I be posting serious comments and questions regarding the 5 in?

 

[MNIrishman]

The other (lesser) bad news is that if Moore is out, he's appeared in every single game in 2011, 2012, and 2013. So if they're going full nuclear on vacating wins then it could reach back to 29 of them.

That'd be bad. That'd earn a kid hatred for the rest of his life. I hope, for his sake, that that doesn't come to pass. If he cheated, he deserves some kind of punishment for that, but his public profile and these "NCAA implications" could do some real damage to any opportunity to move on from this. (Quotes because there aren't any actual NCAA implications, just invented ones).

 

[Old Man Mike]

Baseless prediction:

1). Russell wants his degree and a high draft stock. He sits out and comes back as the perfect jigsaw piece replacing Riggs in 2015;
2). Williams wants to graduate also [big pressure from parents], and follows Russell's example. He has a "fair" but not great 2015 as others in VanGorder's scheme have passed him by;
3). Hardy wants to get his degree as he has no draft potential. He follows Russell's lead and does so. He plays special teams if Kelly can afford giving him a scholarship, but offer numbers are tight;
4). Daniels becomes seen as a two-time loser in the academic purity game, and is gone. He tries for the draft;
5). Moore is faced with graduate school which is a different "no tolerance" situation. He is gone and plays no more football.




Notre Dame vacates nothing.


Notre Dame does just fine in 2014, winning everything that they would have if Russell and Daniels were there, plus a major bowl. Notre Dame returns in 2015 to win a minimum of 11 regular season games and makes the playoffs --- Russell starring at CB and getting drafted in the second round. Kelly is named Coach of the year, VanGorder DC of the year. Notre Dame is acknowledged by everyone but Paul {the complete as$hole} Finebaum and Mark {the total tool} May as being fully back to the football elite.

 

[Domina Nostra]

The other (lesser) bad news is that if Moore is out, he's appeared in every single game in 2011, 2012, and 2013. So if they're going full nuclear on vacating wins then it could reach back to 29 of them.

But he was in on special teams.

Anyone who has watched a single Matlock episode is more than qualified to set forth an air-tight argument that ND's STs never gave the team any "competitive advantage," whatsover. In fact, they were generally an aid to the opposition.

I'd be very suprised if ND vacated any games.

 

[Big23Head]

russell posted on Instagram. Can someone link it? Still on my phone

(https://twitter.com/TJamesNDI/status/520690839937249280

 

[aubeirish]

Vacating games is the stupidest thing ever. Vacating the 2005 u$c game doesn't take away the gut-wrenching feeling memory we experienced at the end of the game.

 

[Irish2155]

Baseless prediction:

1). Russell wants his degree and a high draft stock. He sits out and comes back as the perfect jigsaw piece replacing Riggs in 2015;
2). Williams wants to graduate also [big pressure from parents], and follows Russell's example. He has a "fair" but not great 2015 as others in VanGorder's scheme have passed him by;
3). Hardy wants to get his degree as he has no draft potential. He follows Russell's lead and does so. He plays special teams if Kelly can afford giving him a scholarship, but offer numbers are tight;
4). Daniels becomes seen as a two-time loser in the academic purity game, and is gone. He tries for the draft;
5). Moore is faced with graduate school which is a different "no tolerance" situation. He is gone and plays no more football.




Notre Dame vacates nothing.


Notre Dame does just fine in 2014, winning everything that they would have if Russell and Daniels were there, plus a major bowl. Notre Dame returns in 2015 to win a minimum of 11 regular season games and makes the playoffs --- Russell starring at CB and getting drafted in the second round. Kelly is named Coach of the year, VanGorder DC of the year. Notre Dame is acknowledged by everyone but Paul {the complete as$hole} Finebaum and Mark {the total tool} May as being fully back to the football elite.

Old Man Mike...preach on brother, preach on.

Kind of how I see it too.

 

[MNIrishman]

Baseless prediction:

1). Russell wants his degree and a high draft stock. He sits out and comes back as the perfect jigsaw piece replacing Riggs in 2015;
2). Williams wants to graduate also [big pressure from parents], and follows Russell's example. He has a "fair" but not great 2015 as others in VanGorder's scheme have passed him by;
3). Hardy wants to get his degree as he has no draft potential. He follows Russell's lead and does so. He plays special teams if Kelly can afford giving him a scholarship, but offer numbers are tight;
4). Daniels becomes seen as a two-time loser in the academic purity game, and is gone. He tries for the draft;
5). Moore is faced with graduate school which is a different "no tolerance" situation. He is gone and plays no more football.




Notre Dame vacates nothing.


Notre Dame does just fine in 2014, winning everything that they would have if Russell and Daniels were there, plus a major bowl. Notre Dame returns in 2015 to win a minimum of 11 regular season games and makes the playoffs --- Russell starring at CB and getting drafted in the second round. Kelly is named Coach of the year, VanGorder DC of the year. Notre Dame is acknowledged by everyone but Paul {the complete as$hole} Finebaum and Mark {the total tool} May as being fully back to the football elite.

I <3 you, OMM. We should catch a game sometime (currently near MSU).

 

[Irish Insanity]

quick, big news in the other thread

 

[clashmore_mike]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>So yeah, KeiVarae Russell just posted his fate on Instagram. Plans to return to <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a> football team in 2015. <a href="http://t.co/vmnG39QZ9M">pic.twitter.com/vmnG39QZ9M</a></p>— Matt Fortuna (@Matt_Fortuna) <a href="https://twitter.com/Matt_Fortuna/status/520691667125301249">October 10, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Irish Insanity]

See, shit like that makes he think they were punished far beyond the crime

 

[ND NYC]

The other (lesser) bad news is that if Moore is out, he's appeared in every single game in 2011, 2012, and 2013. So if they're going full nuclear on vacating wins then it could reach back to 29 of them.

that would be the nightmare...and im not convnced at this point that it couldnt happen either.

man that 2010 recruting class was littered with some real bad luck...

 

[Buster Bluth]

He would be in more or less the same boat as Everett, right?

The difference there is that this scandal happens at the end of his undergrand, whereas Everett has a year to be an exemplary student beforehand.

 

[Grahambo]

Complete guess but I don't think they're vacating wins.

 

[nd_fan]

They better no vacate wins

 

[Redbar]

The University should not vacate anything. They are accomplishing their goals exactly as intended. They are recruiting the right guys and keeping their promise to these kids parents. They are being educated, as well as developed on the field and as young men, KVR's statement is a testament to that. Nobody has ever said that kids need to be perfect, they can't and they won't. But after what KVR just said, I am immensely proud of him, the program and yes, the school. Accountability, love for his brothers, determination and desire to work through difficult consequences and come out on the other side the best that he can be. That is all there is in life. Others have had to walk that line, now KVR will have to. Good luck to you on this journey, I, like many others will stay tuned and will remain a fan of KVR and the man he is becoming.

 

[BGIF]

Baseless prediction:

1). Russell wants his degree and a high draft stock. He sits out and comes back as the perfect jigsaw piece replacing Riggs in 2015;
2). Williams wants to graduate also [big pressure from parents], and follows Russell's example. He has a "fair" but not great 2015 as others in VanGorder's scheme have passed him by;
3). Hardy wants to get his degree as he has no draft potential. He follows Russell's lead and does so. He plays special teams if Kelly can afford giving him a scholarship, but offer numbers are tight;
4). Daniels becomes seen as a two-time loser in the academic purity game, and is gone. He tries for the draft;
5). Moore is faced with graduate school which is a different "no tolerance" situation. He is gone and plays no more football.




Notre Dame vacates nothing.


Notre Dame does just fine in 2014, winning everything that they would have if Russell and Daniels were there, plus a major bowl. Notre Dame returns in 2015 to win a minimum of 11 regular season games and makes the playoffs --- Russell starring at CB and getting drafted in the second round. Kelly is named Coach of the year, VanGorder DC of the year. Notre Dame is acknowledged by everyone but Paul {the complete as$hole} Finebaum and Mark {the total tool} May as being fully back to the football elite.

Out of life's school of war: What does not destroy me, makes me stronger.

Old Man Nietzsche breakin' it down.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Russell revealed his plans in a speech to the team before Thursday's practice, sources told ESPN.com. NBCSports.com initially reported that Russell would not play again this season.

Noticed this in the ESPN article and didn't see it posted anywhere. Apparently he spoke to the team about it.

a source saying that not every player had received notification of his status as of Friday afternoon.

This is interesting.

 

[Classic Irish]

Complete guess but I don't think they're vacating wins.

Agreed. I think it's unlikely.

 

[MadMasher]

So let's do some math. Wants all the results are in how many scholarships open up? Since it seems we are getting close to our limit this year it may allow us to aggressively pursue additional recruits.

 

[Andy in Sactown]

So let's do some math. Wants all the results are in how many scholarships open up? Since it seems we are getting close to our limit this year it may allow us to aggressively pursue additional recruits.

Whoah, whoah, whoah.. slow your roll. We want to be hospitable to all our visiting fan base posters.

 

[Irish Insanity]

So let's do some math. Wants all the results are in how many scholarships open up? Since it seems we are getting close to our limit this year it may allow us to aggressively pursue additional recruits.

Whoah, whoah, whoah.. slow your roll. We want to be hospitable to all our visiting fan base posters.

It's good he brought the attention to math and away from proper english

 

[pumpdog20]

Didn't ND say there weren't going to say anything else (or was that just in regards to the players)? Does that mean we're going to have to watch the weekly media guide to see if we've lost some wins or not?

 

[ND NYC]

Noticed this in the ESPN article and didn't see it posted anywhere. Apparently he spoke to the team about it.



This is interesting.

the RV thread had all of it covered...

 

[irishandy]

Golson promised he would come back and he kept his promise. I believe the same for KR. I feel sorry for these kids, but if you play, you'll pay. I would love to see Ishaq come back next year and I think he would excel in BVG's defense.
Kudos for all of the guys that have had to step up and step in, this defense is playing lights out.
Found this interesting stat on Irish Illustrated's twitter account:
Irish Illustrated
‏@NDatRivals Worth considering. Notre Dame on track to return 10 starters on defense next season. The 11th would be KeiVarae Russell.

 

[ND NYC]

have to think the golson example (of redemption and "manning up"; with success albeit delayed) played a big part in how KVR reacted to all this.

curious how the others react once they know their fate

 

[Old Man Mike]

Here is something that I don't know enough about ["politically", or in definition] to pontificate about, but I at least know academia and simple logic.

Regarding "vacating wins": My impression is that wins are vacated if a). a team knowingly plays ineligible players; or b). the NCAA decides to make some idiosyncratic decision based on the politics of the time; or c). the institution decides to make some political decision for whatever their reasons are.

And regarding that: as far as anybody knew, including the players, they WERE all eligible while playing their games --- the only data anyone has on that are the transcripts which say so.

Now, that leads to two sorts of thoughts: 1). the failure of a class [it seems to me very unlikely that any of these guys retroactively failed more than one due to something like funking up a term paper] was by itself sufficient to lower their grade point averages below the eligibility line --- in any other case they would [gradepoint-wise] have been eligible anyway [I would bet that a single "F" would not do that], or, 2). the guilty act itself retroactively makes them ineligible somehow [a philosophy that I can't relate to since it probably would mean that half the total team games ever played are potentially retroactively voided, probably by both teams].

Either way, we are talking about Retroactive thinking. Now, it is not at all obvious that being found guilty of something retroactively zero's all of a person's accomplishments from that era. For instance, WMU would not fail a student in every OTHER course that he was taking at that time, and I doubt that ND would either --- i.e. he would still get credit for having passed the non-violated coursework.

The analogy would [rather solidly] then be that the student-athlete [while being retroactively failed in the course of notice] was not guilty of any other failure automatically --- i.e. if still gradepoint eligible would not be athletically ineligible.

And just at the larger level: retroactive findings of guilt when no one knew this, cannot in justice be cause for punishments of any other organizations going about their normal business in an environment wherein every observation at that time said "Situation Normal".

I know that I don't have enough knowledge here, but this is how I'd reason about this "moral issue" as an academic. If I added "Catholic" Jesus-oriented academic, my forgiveness and understanding would be even deeper.


I am fully aware that I am out on a longer limb than perhaps ever on IE.