George Zimmerman Trial

[JughedJones]

Surely you don't mean our ' post racial ' president...

Unfortunately, I think that's exactly what he meant.

 

[BobD]

Being here in California, it seems funny to hear about people being arrested for marijuana possession. You'd have to have a LOT of pot to accomplish that here.

 

[JughedJones]

Being here in California, it seems funny to hear about people being arrested for marijuana possession. You'd have to have a LOT of pot to accomplish that here.

Precisely.

But lots of the 'wrong' types get arrested for it all the time here. (West Coast)

 

[irishpat183]

Lulz.....

This case shows us exactly the norm.


Edit: "African Americans are 3.7 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites, despite the fact that both racial groups use weed in virtually identical percentages."



Edit to the edit: I know I said I was done posting here... but this is crap. Racism is just that, racist.
The worst type is 'color blind' racism. It hurts more than the overt kind. Recognize.

No, it's not the "norm". Racism is not the norm in our country. It's a few bad apples that are spewed all over our TV's to get people excited.

Nice pot reference....Does it account for HOW MUCH the person has in their possession? I"d be willing to bet that your statistic doesn't account for that. Could it be that those blacks busted are more likely to be dealers?

 

[ARALOU]

I wish there were more women here, because I'm also a woman....and a lesbian.

That's one thing you see very few of. Especially in Nashville. Black lesbian women. A true minority. On a non-related note, onee thing for sure, Nashville is becoming a more violent place. Like the rest of the country I suppose.

 

[irishpat183]

Bobd- good explanation but the numbers don't match the theory of its just the dummies in each race.

Also if the majority in here think there is still not racism I may have to simply bow out of this thread gracefully. I thought this was well known. The kkk isnt hanging folks still, the police are doing a pretty good job of filling the jails with them. I have friends of many races and can tell you without a doubt, racism still exists as strong as it as In a long time. If you don't believe me that's ok. If you want to take a ride on the wild side, come with me on a field trip and I can show you easily. Black ppl can be racist too, not denying that at all. However that's not the issue because of the tilt of power and numbers in the usa. Not a conspiracy theorist gentlemen, only relaying actual facts that I have seen with my own two eyes. Seems black ppl feel the same way, have you heard any hip hop albums lately?

This has got to be a joke, right?

Where is your "wild side"?? Please, tell me.


And hip hop albums only contribute to the ignorant mindset of SOME black youth. You got some dumba$$ artist, that is totally detached from reality, complaining about a problem that he never encounters. Yeah, sounds like a REAL strong reference. I wonder how many buses Jay-Z has to sit in the back of....

Get a clue

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Did anyone else see the complete jury instructions in this case?

Earlier in the thread a bunch of posters were arguing back and forth about "stand your ground - castle theory" versus "stand your ground, hearing based upon 2005 FLA law." What almost no one I know knew, was that in the jury instructions the self defense requirements were lowered because of stand your ground, to a ridiculously low level.

As opposed to a fight along political or not being a racist, racist lines, I would just like to make the following statement. The execution of stand your ground laws as currently written by the gun lobby are going to have to be repealed or will cost many thousands more lives. I am upset because I legally and morally carry, and I don't want to have to give up my right.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

This has got to be a joke, right?

Where is your "wild side"?? Please, tell me.


And hip hop albums only contribute to the ignorant mindset of SOME black youth. You got some dumba$$ artist, that is totally detached from reality, complaining about a problem that he never encounters. Yeah, sounds like a REAL strong reference. I wonder how many buses Jay-Z has to sit in the back of....

Get a clue

Maybe people confuse racism with lack of empathy for people of other racial groups. Maybe they are two different things. I don't know. After all, we are tribal creatures.

I can state that of the people have not shown any empathy to members of another racial group, only a couple have tried to constantly turn that conversation to some meaningless topic to avoid the real issues. Pat, with all respect, do you believe African-American are better at dealing with pain because they have been toughened up by the troubles of their history?

 

[jmurphy75]

Did anyone else see the complete jury instructions in this case?

Earlier in the thread a bunch of posters were arguing back and forth about "stand your ground - castle theory" versus "stand your ground, hearing based upon 2005 FLA law." What almost no one I know knew, was that in the jury instructions the self defense requirements were lowered because of stand your ground, to a ridiculously low level.

As opposed to a fight along political or not being a racist, racist lines, I would just like to make the following statement. The execution of stand your ground laws as currently written by the gun lobby are going to have to be repealed or will cost many thousands more lives. I am upset because I legally and morally carry, and I don't want to have to give up my right.

Before you go all "will cost many thousands more lives" on us I'd like to see just how many lives the "stand your ground law has cost people so far. I'd also like to see in contrast how many times it has helped. The origin of reasoning behind the stand your ground comes from too many people getting convicted of defending themselves. The laws used to read more along the lines of you have to attempt to flee first and then if that doesn't work you can defend yourself with deadly force (not getting into exact wording or detail). There were good people getting sent to jail because they didn't attempt to flee first. In a situation like this it happens in the blink of an eye and most don't have the ablility to weigh whether they could run or if they should stand and fight.

 

[jmurphy75]

Maybe people confuse racism with lack of empathy for people of other racial groups. Maybe they are two different things. I don't know. After all, we are tribal creatures.

I can state that of the people have not shown any empathy to members of another racial group, only a couple have tried to constantly turn that conversation to some meaningless topic to avoid the real issues. Pat, with all respect, do you believe African-American are better at dealing with pain because they have been toughened up by the troubles of their history?

I've honestly had this convo with a bunch of friends (mixed race group) and everyone agrees that there is still racism but that it is equally distributed from whites to blacks to Hispanics in both directions. I understand the empathy that people should have towards others and find that there is less empathy from blacks to black than one would think. There is a divide among them and the group that I would call educated and successful has a definite distain towards the group associated with screaming racism at every turn. They also feel that AL and Jesse are embarrassing to their race, and are moving things in the wrong direction. Sorry to hijack your question to Pat but the subject of this giant persecution against black america just does not exist. The past is the past and no one can move forward while still holding on to the past.

 

[ACamp1900]

I have always believed in the 'contact hypothesis'... And being from a multi cultural background and family I firmly believe having a sense of humor, and refusing to let race be an excuse are two major steps we all need to take for the better...

Doesn't mean stupid people don't exist, but why let them drag us to their levels,... Im speaking to racists and race baiters, who imo deserve each other... In this country those who focus and don't get caught up tend to rise above...

There be my thoughts on race.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I've honestly had this convo with a bunch of friends (mixed race group) and everyone agrees that there is still racism but that it is equally distributed from whites to blacks to Hispanics in both directions. I understand the empathy that people should have towards others and find that there is less empathy from blacks to black than one would think. There is a divide among them and the group that I would call educated and successful has a definite distain towards the group associated with screaming racism at every turn. They also feel that AL and Jesse are embarrassing to their race, and are moving things in the wrong direction. Sorry to hijack your question to Pat but the subject of this giant persecution against black america just does not exist. The past is the past and no one can move forward while still holding on to the past.

Earlier in the thread I tried to bring up how this was an issue of classism, which is kind of what you note in your post.

Also, a lack of human empathy is a lack of human empathy. My question was is 400 years of racism enough to perpetuate it on both sides or is it a societal movement toward "me first" and less empathy for others, as has been noted for the better part of the last 40 years. So does it come as an affect of unabated historical racism, or is it a new thing, the affects of 40 years of me first? Or is it a totally new thing, hatred caused by the crumbling of our middle-class and a new class divide?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Before you go all "will cost many thousands more lives" on us I'd like to see just how many lives the "stand your ground law has cost people so far. I'd also like to see in contrast how many times it has helped. The origin of reasoning behind the stand your ground comes from too many people getting convicted of defending themselves. The laws used to read more along the lines of you have to attempt to flee first and then if that doesn't work you can defend yourself with deadly force (not getting into exact wording or detail). There were good people getting sent to jail because they didn't attempt to flee first. In a situation like this it happens in the blink of an eye and most don't have the ablility to weigh whether they could run or if they should stand and fight.

I understand your point, I think, but I never said anything close to "thousands."

McCain backs Obama's call for 'stand your ground' review

1 hour ago

Sen. John McCain is backing President Barack Obama's call for the so-called "stand your ground" laws in Florida and other states to be reexamined in the wake of the George Zimmerman case.

"The 'stand your ground' law may be something that may needs to be reviewed by the Florida legislature or any other legislature that has passed such legislation," McCain said on CNN's "State of the Union" Sunday, two days after President Obama discussed Zimmerman's acquittal in the killing of Trayvon Martin.

The Arizona Republican said he thinks the self-defense law should be reviewed in his home state, too. "I'm confident that the members of the Arizona legislature will, because it is very controversial legislation," McCain said. Florida and Arizona are among 30 states with "stand your ground" laws on the books.

On Friday, Obama held a somber press conference at the White House to discuss the case, which is currently under review by the Justice Department for possible civil rights violations.

The president hinted that he didn't expect the review would lead to federal charges against Zimmerman.

"Traditionally, these are issues of state and local government, the criminal code, and law enforcement is traditionally done at the state and local levels—not at the federal level," Obama said. "The judge conducted the trial in a professional manner. The prosecution and the defense made their arguments. The jurors were properly instructed that in a case such as this reasonable doubt was relevant, and they rendered a verdict. And once the jury has spoken, that's how our system works."

But the commander in chief called for a review of the controversial "stand your ground" laws.

"And for those who resist that idea—that we should think about something like these 'stand your ground' laws—I just ask people to consider: If Trayvon Martin was of age and armed, could he have stood his ground on that sidewalk? And do we actually think that he would have been justified in shooting Mr. Zimmerman, who had followed him in a car, because he felt threatened?" the president said.

"What I got out of the president's statement, which I thought was very impressive, is that we need to have more conversation in America," he said. "I need to talk to more of my Hispanic organizations in my state. I need to talk to more African-American organizations."

McCain's support was in stark contrast to fellow GOP Sen. Ted Cruz's reaction to Obama's remarks.

“It is not surprising that the president uses, it seems, every opportunity that he can to go after our Second Amendment right to bear arms,” the Texas senator said Friday in Iowa. “This president and this administration has a consistent disregard for the Bill of Rights.”

The one thing further I will ask or state, is that I have heard many opinions on this case. But I have not seen one statement made by a person that has had to suffer through taking another human life. People watch the movies, get into the 'him or me' mentality, but have very little understanding of what it is like. In that case one unnecessary life is too many.

 

[BGIF]

I understand your point, I think, but I never said anything close to "thousands."
...

Actually you said, "many thousands".


Murph quoted you accurately. See your post, below, with the quote highlighted (and emphasis added) in context. I used the IE quote function to transcribe your words. I added the emphasis.

... I would just like to make the following statement. The execution of stand your ground laws as currently written by the gun lobby are going to have to be repealed or will cost many thousands more lives. ...

Your use of the word "more" clearly indicates that many thousand have already died as a result of SYG.

Do you have a cite or is this just more of your usual hyperbole?

 

[jmurphy75]

Here is another good video that is gaining popularity, take it for what it is.

Bill Whittle: The best take you will hear on George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin | Young Cons

 

[NDFan4Life]

Obama co-sponsored legislation strengthening Illinois' "stand your ground" law

CHICAGO - This past week President Obama publicly urged the reexamination of state self-defense laws (see remarks below). However, nine years ago then-State Sen. Barack Obama actually co-sponsored a bill that strengthened Illinois' 1961 "stand your ground" law.
The Obama-sponsored bill (SB 2386) enlarged the state's 1961 law by shielding the person who was attacked from being sued in civil court by perpetrators or their estates when a "stand your ground" defense is used in protecting his or her person, dwelling or other property.
The bill unanimously passed the Democrat-controlled Illinois Senate on March 25, 2004 with only one comment, and passed the Democrat-controlled Illinois House in May 2004 with only two votes in opposition. Then-Governor Rod Blagojevich (D) signed it into law.

Record of Obama co-sponsoring SB 2386 | Source: Illinois General Assembly

Roll call of SB 2386 | Source: Illinois General Assembly
As U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) prepares to hold Senate hearings in September to scrutinize states' self-defense laws, he may wish to consider his home state's public policy, which his former colleague and fellow Illinoisan - President Obama - helped craft.
* * * * * * *
This past Friday when discussing the George Zimmerman case, President Obama suggested revisiting state "stand your ground laws" to determine whether the laws encouraged altercations rather than avoiding them, a position he didn't raise while a state senator.

Remarks from President Obama:
"Along the same lines, I think it may be useful for us to examine some state and local laws to see if they are designed in such a way that they may encourage the kinds of altercations, confrontations and tragedies as we saw in the Florida case, rather than diffuse potential altercations," Obama said.
"I know that there's been commentary about the fact that stand your ground laws in Florida were not used as a defense of the case. On the other hand, if we're sending a message as a society in our communities that someone who is armed has a right to use those firearms even if there's a way for them to exit from the situation, is that really going to be contributing to the kind of peace and security and order that we'd like to see?" he asked White House Press reporters.
"And for those who resist that idea that we should think about these stand your ground laws, I just have to ask these people to consider if Trayvon Martin was of age and armed, could he have stood his ground on that sidewalk, and do we actually think that he would have been justified in shooting Mr. Zimmerman who had followed him in a car because he felt threatened?" Obama said.
"And if the answer to that question is at least ambiguous, then it seems to me that we might want to examine those kinds of laws."

Obama co-sponsored legislation strengthening Illinois' "stand your ground" law - Illinois Review
​

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Actually you said, "many thousands".


Murph quoted you accurately. See your post, below, with the quote highlighted (and emphasis added) in context. I used the IE quote function to transcribe your words. I added the emphasis.





Your use of the word "more" clearly indicates that many thousand have already died as a result of SYG.

Do you have a cite or is this just more of your usual hyperbole?

No hyperbole. Maybe I was remiss in hoping that most people would understand that I was speaking of (but did not include) the words "annually." As in more people die "annually," as a result of gunshots than as a result of automobiles. As in like between thirty and forty thousand people a year die "annually" from gun shot wounds. Which is thousands without hyperbole. The thing I regret the most is the lack of specificity in my posting allowed for some stupid @ss good old boy name-calling, covers up a serious problem of state sanctioned murder.

I guess some people on this site just get so excited to dog people that intelligence, understanding, and human kindness fly out the window. How much fvcking intelligence does it take to understand that since stand your ground laws are relatively new and we have been killing each other with guns for a century without good reason that the "thousands" are a continuation of the barbarous nature of our civility, not the stand your ground laws, that they in fact are only going to add to that. Again pardon me for my "posting faux-pas!"

 

[IrishLax]

Obama co-sponsored legislation strengthening Illinois' "stand your ground" law

CHICAGO - This past week President Obama publicly urged the reexamination of state self-defense laws (see remarks below). However, nine years ago then-State Sen. Barack Obama actually co-sponsored a bill that strengthened Illinois' 1961 "stand your ground" law.
The Obama-sponsored bill (SB 2386) enlarged the state's 1961 law by shielding the person who was attacked from being sued in civil court by perpetrators or their estates when a "stand your ground" defense is used in protecting his or her person, dwelling or other property.
The bill unanimously passed the Democrat-controlled Illinois Senate on March 25, 2004 with only one comment, and passed the Democrat-controlled Illinois House in May 2004 with only two votes in opposition. Then-Governor Rod Blagojevich (D) signed it into law.

Record of Obama co-sponsoring SB 2386 | Source: Illinois General Assembly

Roll call of SB 2386 | Source: Illinois General Assembly
As U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) prepares to hold Senate hearings in September to scrutinize states' self-defense laws, he may wish to consider his home state's public policy, which his former colleague and fellow Illinoisan - President Obama - helped craft.
* * * * * * *
This past Friday when discussing the George Zimmerman case, President Obama suggested revisiting state "stand your ground laws" to determine whether the laws encouraged altercations rather than avoiding them, a position he didn't raise while a state senator.

Remarks from President Obama:
"Along the same lines, I think it may be useful for us to examine some state and local laws to see if they are designed in such a way that they may encourage the kinds of altercations, confrontations and tragedies as we saw in the Florida case, rather than diffuse potential altercations," Obama said.
"I know that there's been commentary about the fact that stand your ground laws in Florida were not used as a defense of the case. On the other hand, if we're sending a message as a society in our communities that someone who is armed has a right to use those firearms even if there's a way for them to exit from the situation, is that really going to be contributing to the kind of peace and security and order that we'd like to see?" he asked White House Press reporters.
"And for those who resist that idea that we should think about these stand your ground laws, I just have to ask these people to consider if Trayvon Martin was of age and armed, could he have stood his ground on that sidewalk, and do we actually think that he would have been justified in shooting Mr. Zimmerman who had followed him in a car because he felt threatened?" Obama said.
"And if the answer to that question is at least ambiguous, then it seems to me that we might want to examine those kinds of laws."

Obama co-sponsored legislation strengthening Illinois' "stand your ground" law - Illinois Review
​

Well isn't that inconvenient...

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Well isn't that inconvenient...

Agreed!

In my previous post I used the words "State sanctioned murder." That is what is going on. It is both parties, members thereof. It is anti citizen, but mostly anti-poor citizen. It is all about selling more guns without paying attention to the results. A lot of politicians have taken a lot of money and received a lot of votes for this. (It will turn out they came particularly cheap for this, cheaper than say for the pharmacy lobby, but there still were boatloads of cash thrown around. I can only think of one politician, Marcy Kaptur that didn't take gun money. How many can you name?) Maybe this will be enough to get people to wake up to what is going on. When the roads became crowded with cars, what had to be done? Meaningful regulation.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Obama co-sponsored legislation strengthening Illinois' "stand your ground" law

CHICAGO - This past week President Obama publicly urged the reexamination of state self-defense laws (see remarks below). However, nine years ago then-State Sen. Barack Obama actually co-sponsored a bill that strengthened Illinois' 1961 "stand your ground" law.
...

This is like when Clinton was so pleased that Defense of Marriage Act was struck down, even though he signed it into law. These guys are taking 'flip-flopping' to a whole new level.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Obama co-sponsored legislation strengthening Illinois' "stand your ground" law

CHICAGO - This past week President Obama publicly urged the reexamination of state self-defense laws (see remarks below). However, nine years ago then-State Sen. Barack Obama actually co-sponsored a bill that strengthened Illinois' 1961 "stand your ground" law.
The Obama-sponsored bill (SB 2386) enlarged the state's 1961 law by shielding the person who was attacked from being sued in civil court by perpetrators or their estates when a "stand your ground" defense is used in protecting his or her person, dwelling or other property.
The bill unanimously passed the Democrat-controlled Illinois Senate on March 25, 2004 with only one comment, and passed the Democrat-controlled Illinois House in May 2004 with only two votes in opposition. Then-Governor Rod Blagojevich (D) signed it into law.

Record of Obama co-sponsoring SB 2386 | Source: Illinois General Assembly

Roll call of SB 2386 | Source: Illinois General Assembly
As U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) prepares to hold Senate hearings in September to scrutinize states' self-defense laws, he may wish to consider his home state's public policy, which his former colleague and fellow Illinoisan - President Obama - helped craft.
* * * * * * *
This past Friday when discussing the George Zimmerman case, President Obama suggested revisiting state "stand your ground laws" to determine whether the laws encouraged altercations rather than avoiding them, a position he didn't raise while a state senator.

Remarks from President Obama:
"Along the same lines, I think it may be useful for us to examine some state and local laws to see if they are designed in such a way that they may encourage the kinds of altercations, confrontations and tragedies as we saw in the Florida case, rather than diffuse potential altercations," Obama said.
"I know that there's been commentary about the fact that stand your ground laws in Florida were not used as a defense of the case. On the other hand, if we're sending a message as a society in our communities that someone who is armed has a right to use those firearms even if there's a way for them to exit from the situation, is that really going to be contributing to the kind of peace and security and order that we'd like to see?" he asked White House Press reporters.
"And for those who resist that idea that we should think about these stand your ground laws, I just have to ask these people to consider if Trayvon Martin was of age and armed, could he have stood his ground on that sidewalk, and do we actually think that he would have been justified in shooting Mr. Zimmerman who had followed him in a car because he felt threatened?" Obama said.
"And if the answer to that question is at least ambiguous, then it seems to me that we might want to examine those kinds of laws."

Obama co-sponsored legislation strengthening Illinois' "stand your ground" law - Illinois Review
​

Obama sure is doing his best to become the most hypocritical President in history.

 

[BobD]

Obama sure is doing his best to become the most hypocritical President in history.

Yeah, cause they don't all do stuff like that. Right?

 

[ACamp1900]

Yeah, cause they don't all do stuff like that. Right?

Remember when he was going to be different... Part the waters, end political in fighting and be the post racial president??...


Now his defense is "everybody does it"... Just saying.

 

[FLDomer]

Yeah, cause they don't all do stuff like that. Right?

Agreed! So much for "Change" and "Forward", should have been "Same ole, Same ole".

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Seriously? I have never heard of a politician sponsoring legislation that he later asked to be repealed, all in response to a single incident. ("Whoops, my bad Illinois")

If it's out there, please someone enlighten me, because this seems like totally new ground.

 

[NDFan4Life]

Seriously? I have never heard of a politician sponsoring legislation that he later asked to be repealed, all in response to a single incident. ("Whoops, my bad Illinois")

If it's out there, please someone enlighten me, because this seems like totally new ground.

Clinton signed DOMA into law and rejoiced when it was done away with by the SC.

 

[adsnorri]

Fellas...After nine years and some insight to the results of the legislation, I think it is alright to say it is worth taking a look at...even if you voted for the bill. Flip Flopping after nine years?! Stretching it a little in this case. I understand the argument though. Just my opinion but what if Trayvon's father or other family member now crosses paths with GZ. Words are exchanged and GZ gets shot because the altercation was escalated and The shooter says that CZ attacked him after words were exchanged? I know this is a stretch but not a far one because if my son was shot down in the street, there would be more than words exchanged. Interested to know if you guys think this would be another case of stand your ground?

 

[NDFan4Life]

Yeah, cause they don't all do stuff like that. Right?

So... that's going to be his defense?

So much for "hope and change".

 

[adsnorri]

56 Yays to 0 Nos...A lot of finger pointing to do. The amount of dirty politics in this country is horrid but of the group, I think Obama is the least likely to be involved in it, imo. Not saying he has never partaken, just not as much or on the scale as many others.

 

[phgreek]

...Ouch. I suppose this is one of those things that reinforces a guy's desire to vote "present".

If principle drives your views, you don't need a good memory. However if you are the king of the progressive movement, you don't need a good memory either. Hypocrisy and accountability are concepts taken out of the closet when a conservative holds the office.