Game of Thrones

[wizards8507]

I'd go rewatch it, but freaking HBO GO is down. I distinctly remember a look in Littlefinger's eye that seemed to indicate he was getting a semi.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I feel like that's why they put the conversation scene between Jon and Sansa in though. To show that they are united. That they "have to trust eachother". The Starks have all been honorable people, I don't see Sansa being the first dishonorable Stark.

This is my thinking too.

She knows they (the Starks) just regained the North. She's in a position of power even if she's not Lord of Winterfell, King in the North. Why risk it.

 

[Irish YJ]

I feel like that's why they put the conversation scene between Jon and Sansa in though. To show that they are united. That they "have to trust eachother". The Starks have all been honorable people, I don't see Sansa being the first dishonorable Stark.

While I think you are probably right, a dark and evil Sansa would make for a great story IMO.

 

[ClausentoTate]

Agreed with Wiz on Sansa's look, definitely felt she knew Littlefinger was right in that moment. Could see them conspiring together to take power from Jon. Bran will be going past the wall soon so it could all be revealed, but when and to whom?

Seriously, seriously awesome episode. Loved the explosion -- the buildup was great, Margaery's knowing look to the Septon was great, even the CGI was pretty good. Very impressed overall with that scene. One fell swoop and all of Cersei's enemies are completely evaporated, she has the fear of the people and ultimately gets her revenge. Just so good. The Tommen scene was eh. Wasn't a great character anyway. Honestly don't know how Jaime is going to take it. It's so open-ended that it's hard to have a gripe with any part of it.

Was not expecting Arya there. Who else is on her list? Cersei and the Mountain? Interesting... though it's kind of weird how they're mixing and matching things from the books. Like, why would she make a meat pie? Walder was the only one on her list. Her storyline is just so all over the place.

Sigh, now we have to wait until next April again

 

[IrishLion]

1. I'm optimistic that they're going to start to get Jamie right. It's happening later than I would have liked, but the look he gave Cersei seemed to indicated that he's finally done with her. I think it's unfortunate that he's stayed loyal to her for so long with seemingly no repercussions from Tyrion's parting shots.

He's 100% going to kill Cersei at some point... I just hope he does it for good reason and in a clean way, and not after having lost control and turned back to full dickhead or something.

2. Does anyone else think there's a chance Cersei was okay with the fact that Tommen was dead? We knew she was all about her children but we also knew that she was a believer in the prophecy that said they'd all die. I think she was resigned to that fact and basically said "fuck it, might as well be queen."

She put on her mourning dress before it all even went down... she knew Tommen was probably on his way out. I think she had UnGregor keep him in his room not for his safety, but so he would see it happen.

3. King in the North was such an awesome scene, but does anyone else question Jon's character motivations? He flips pretty quickly from not wanting to sleep in Ned's bed on the premise that Sansa is the lady of Winterfell to all of a sudden accepting the mantle of King in the North. That felt a bit out of character to play up the Littlefinger - Sansa - Jon triangle.

I've got nothing here, aside from the fact that he's following the will of the people and their proclamation, just like he did when he was named Lord Commander against his wishes.

4. Why is there such a sharp divide between show people and book people on Danaerys? Show people seem to view her as a co-hero in parallel with Jon and that the two of them unite to fight the White Walkers. Most book people I know absolutely hate her and thing she'll descend into madness and become an evil force that Jon will have to deal with in addition to the White Walkers.

I think part of it is that in the books, her story is just bad. It's drawn out far too much. So, when she has a very realistic character moment where she seems to show some of her father's personality (while also showing so many admirable traits, which people seem to ignore), people jump on it and assume she sucks and will mess everything up. They become prisoners of how her story is progressing, and ignore half of her character traits in favor of the "negative."

I think the books do a great job of showing her struggle between being daughter to the Mad King, and sister to the beloved Prince. Which personality will win out? The show has subtly begun to set this up and it should be a decent storyline over the next season or two, and Tyrion will play a large role in the payoff. Either he will fail to help her see reason and so it will be a tragically sad moment for him, or he will convince her to settle down and avoid the flaws her father had, which will be a nice victorious moment.

5. I think the show made a smart decision to omit Robb Stark's will legitimizing Jon Snow as a Stark. Jon's true parentage legitimizes him anyways, so including the will would be redundant and unnecessarily complicated. Separately, do we know for sure whether Rhaegar and Lyanna got married? Jon Targ would be much more significant than Jon Sand.

Maybe Bran will see their marriage in front of a random Heart Tree on their way to the Tower of Joy.

 

[NOLAIrish]

We know Ned delivered Dawn to Ashara Dayne after the Tower of Joy and that the sword is at Starfell. I assume he just picked it up before he went up. Maybe someone can go back to the scene to check if they show him picking it up.

Dayne disarmed Ned during the fight. If you remember back to that episode, Ned was on the ground and about to be killed when Howland Reed stabbed Dayne in the back. After Dayne gets stabbed, Ned picks up Dawn to finish Dayne. That's why he was holding it at the end of that scene/beginning of last night's scene.

 

[GoIrish41]

Agreed with Wiz on Sansa's look, definitely felt she knew Littlefinger was right in that moment. Could see them conspiring together to take power from Jon. Bran will be going past the wall soon so it could all be revealed, but when and to whom?

Seriously, seriously awesome episode. Loved the explosion -- the buildup was great, Margaery's knowing look to the Septon was great, even the CGI was pretty good. Very impressed overall with that scene. One fell swoop and all of Cersei's enemies are completely evaporated, she has the fear of the people and ultimately gets her revenge. Just so good. The Tommen scene was eh. Wasn't a great character anyway. Honestly don't know how Jaime is going to take it. It's so open-ended that it's hard to have a gripe with any part of it.

Was not expecting Arya there. Who else is on her list? Cersei and the Mountain? Interesting... though it's kind of weird how they're mixing and matching things from the books. Like, why would she make a meat pie? Walder was the only one on her list. Her storyline is just so all over the place.

Sigh, now we have to wait until next April again

Since Bran was touched by the Knight's King and enabling the White Walkers to enter the tree lair of the 3-eyed Raven, wouldn't it follow that if Bran passes the wall that it invites the White Walkers and the Army of the Dead into Westeros? Bran passing the wall does not seem like a simple thing. If he comes to that conclusion, it may delay John finding out about his family lineage -- giving Littlefinger a chance to try to poison the well between John and Sansa.

 

[ACamp1900]

So Howland Reed is still nowhere to be seen??

 

[Whiskeyjack]

5. I think the show made a smart decision to omit Robb Stark's will legitimizing Jon Snow as a Stark. Jon's true parentage legitimizes him anyways, so including the will would be redundant and unnecessarily complicated. Separately, do we know for sure whether Rhaegar and Lyanna got married? Jon Targ would be much more significant than Jon Sand.

Pretty strong indication that Robb named Jon as his heir in the Will, though. #DAKINGINDANORF

Surprised no one has mentioned Lyanna telling Ned that Jon's real name isn't Jon. After turning up my TV and trying to read her lips, she seems to be saying a Targaryen name like Aerys or Aemon. I'm partial to the latter because of GRRM's penchant for foreshadowing:

“I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool.”

A Storm of Swords, Jon XII

And because it would mean that Maester Aemon unknowingly mentored his own namesake.

The Mad Queen vibes have almost completely dissipated, and now Benioff & Weiss are making comments along the lines of, "Even the good Targs have an edge, etc."

I'm really hoping we don't see any Stark family intrigue between Sansa and Jon. The fact that Sansa declines Jon's offer of Winterfell's master suite, that she states she'd be a fool to trust Baelish, and that she rebuffs Baelish in the godswood are all good signs, but Benioff & Weiss definitely wanted to create some doubt about Sansa's loyalty with that final look between her and Baelish (they said as much in the post-episode commentary).

The cinematography and musical score for that episode were incredible. Especially Tommen's suicide scene, where it remains locked on a beautifully framed shot of the window.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Since Bran was touched by the Knight's King and enabling the White Walkers to enter the tree lair of the 3-eyed Raven, wouldn't it follow that if Bran passes the wall that it invites the White Walkers and the Army of the Dead into Westeros? Bran passing the wall does not seem like a simple thing. If he comes to that conclusion, it may delay John finding out about his family lineage -- giving Littlefinger a chance to try to poison the well between John and Sansa.

Yup. Bran knows that being marked by the Night's King in one of his visions is what broke the protective wards around Bloodraven's cave. So how can he just pass through the Wall anyway?

 

[NOLAIrish]

Other comments (mostly positive) that I don't think have been discussed yet:

1. I'm optimistic that they're going to start to get Jamie right. It's happening later than I would have liked, but the look he gave Cersei seemed to indicated that he's finally done with her. I think it's unfortunate that he's stayed loyal to her for so long with seemingly no repercussions from Tyrion's parting shots.

I took his look a little differently. He's always seemed to know that Cersei is reckless and has to be kept in check. I saw it as him realizing how dangerous the situation was about to become. To me, if this scene was about him giving up on Cersei, his monologue in front of Edmure never would've happened.

2. Does anyone else think there's a chance Cersei was okay with the fact that Tommen was dead? We knew she was all about her children but we also knew that she was a believer in the prophecy that said they'd all die. I think she was resigned to that fact and basically said "fuck it, might as well be queen."

She definitely didn't seem broken up about it like she was for Joffrey and, to an extent, Myrcella. Is there anyone else that had a "legitimate" claim to the throne, though? Tyrion's been exiled. I'm assuming Jaime's stint in the King's Guard still precludes him from holding the title. She may actually be the rightful Queen, as much as that's possible.

5. I think the show made a smart decision to omit Robb Stark's will legitimizing Jon Snow as a Stark. Jon's true parentage legitimizes him anyways, so including the will would be redundant and unnecessarily complicated. Separately, do we know for sure whether Rhaegar and Lyanna got married? Jon Targ would be much more significant than Jon Sand.

He died before Elia Martell, so I think we can be pretty confident he never married Lyanna.

 

[wizards8507]

Surprised no one has mentioned Lyanna telling Ned that Jon's real name isn't Jon. After turning up my TV and trying to read her lips, she seems to be saying a Targaryen name like Aerys or Aemon. I'm partial to the latter because of GRRM's penchant for foreshadowing:

And because it would mean that Maester Aemon unknowingly mentored his own namesake.

Blegh, that leaves a foul taste in my mouth. I want The White Wolf, The Watcher on the Wall, King in the North, and Protector of the Realm. Not Aerys Targaryen, the Third of His Name and heir to some shit iron throne in King's Landing.

He died before Elia Martell, so I think we can be pretty confident he never married Lyanna.

Loads of Targs had multiple wives.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Blegh, that leaves a foul taste in my mouth. I want The White Wolf, The Watcher on the Wall, King in the North, and Protector of the Realm. Not Aerys Targaryen, the Third of His Name and heir to some shit iron throne in King's Landing.

Loads of Targs had multiple wives.

Take it up with GRRM. Jon is obviously destined for much more than Winterfell.

 

[gkIrish]

He's 100% going to kill Cersei at some point... I just hope he does it for good reason and in a clean way, and not after having lost control and turned back to full dickhead or something.

I think it's highly likely Arya kills Cersei.

 

[gkIrish]

So Howland Reed is still nowhere to be seen??

He was killed in the explosion

 

[wizards8507]

Take it up with GRRM. Jon is obviously destined for much more than Winterfell.

I'm just talking about his name and his attitude, not his destiny. The great irony of Jon not being Ned's son is that he's the most Ned-like of all the Starks. A lot of fans seem to worship the Targaryen name but I absolutely hate the Targ dynasty and it doesn't excite me that Jon seems destined to continue that line.

 

[woolybug25]

Blegh, that leaves a foul taste in my mouth. I want The White Wolf, The Watcher on the Wall, King in the North, and Protector of the Realm. Not Aerys Targaryen, the Third of His Name and heir to some shit iron throne in King's Landing.


Loads of Targs had multiple wives.

That "shit iron throne" is the most important damn seat in the story. Who gives a fuck about who rules the north? If the thought of Jon being Targarean doesn't make your undies moist, then the story ain't for you brother.

shit throne... Pffftt...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think it's highly likely Arya kills Cersei.

Not likely.

"When will I wed the prince?" she asked.
"Never. You will wed the king."
"I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.
"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggys yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."
"Will the king and I have children?" she asked.
"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."
The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Jamie's gonna strangle her to death with his golden hand.

 

[woolybug25]

I'm just talking about his name and his attitude, not his destiny. The great irony of Jon not being Ned's son is that he's the most Ned-like of all the Starks. A lot of fans seem to worship the Targaryen name but I absolutely hate the Targ dynasty and it doesn't excite me that Jon seems destined to continue that line.

I think calling the Targareans a "dynasty" isn't giving them enough credit. They ruled for thousands of years and brought, at least in part, every damn plot point to the table. If you don't think they are interesting, take a moment to go through the wiki pages for the Targareans. I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts in a few days when you finish.

 

[wizards8507]

That "shit iron throne" is the most important damn seat in the story. Who gives a fuck about who rules the north? If the thought of Jon being Targarean doesn't make your undies moist, then the story ain't for you brother.

The Targs are evil, bro. Pretty much all of them with a few exceptions.

shit throne... Pffftt...

The whole point of this story is that the throne is irrelevant because there's an existential threat to humanity as we know it. Arguing about the Iron Throne is like bitching about Republican vs. Democrat when there are space aliens invading planet Earth.

 

[woolybug25]

Not likely.



Jamie's gonna strangle her to death with his golden hand.

 

[wizards8507]

Not likely.

Jamie's gonna strangle her to death with his golden hand.

I don't recall... was the prophecy stated verbatim in the show version? Margaery played a role in Tommen and Joffrey's deaths, but she didn't have anything to do with Myrcella's. Seems like an oversight.

I think calling the Targareans a "dynasty" isn't giving them enough credit. They ruled for thousands of years and brought, at least in part, every damn plot point to the table. If you don't think they are interesting, take a moment to go through the wiki pages for the Targareans. I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts in a few days when you finish.

I didn't say they weren't interesting, I said I don't like them. There's a difference.

 

[woolybug25]

The Targs are evil, bro. Pretty much all of them with a few exceptions.


The whole point of this story is that the throne is irrelevant because there's an existential threat to humanity as we know it. Arguing about the Iron Throne is like bitching about Republican vs. Democrat when there are space aliens invading planet Earth.

What??? How do I know more about the Targareans than you when you've read all of the books? Are you saying Rhaegar was evil? There are good and bad Targareans throughout time and that is pretty clear in their family tree. Every family has good and bad people in it. Look at yours for instance; your mother is a sweet, loving and giving woman... and you turned into a total shithead.

The Iron Throne is the basis of the fucking story. Sure, there is a battle with the White Walkers coming, but that battle is going to be with whoever is sitting on that shit throne. Acting like its immaterial to story is just ignorant.

 

[wizards8507]

What??? How do I know more about the Targareans than you when you've read all of the books? Are you saying Rhaegar was evil? There are good and bad Targareans throughout time and that is pretty clear in their family tree.

Did you read what I said? I specifically said there were exceptions. Rhaegar was swell. Aegon V was pretty good. But House Targaryen, as a house, is evil. Their words are "fire and blood." They conquered Westeros by roasting people with dragonfire, and Aegon the Conqueror was supposedly one of the good ones.

The Iron Throne is the basis of the fucking story. Sure, there is a battle with the White Walkers coming, but that battle is going to be with whoever is sitting on that shit throne. Acting like its immaterial to story is just ignorant.

Yes, it's important to the character motivations, but the reader knows better. It's a quintessential example of dramatic irony. Everyone is tripping over themselves to sit the Iron Throne, but they're absolutely clueless about the actual threat to the realm.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't recall... was the prophecy stated verbatim in the show version? Margaery played a role in Tommen and Joffrey's deaths, but she didn't have anything to do with Myrcella's. Seems like an oversight.

Maggy's prophecy from S5E1 is almost identical to what I posted above. In light of Margaery's fate, the most rational interpretation is that the younger Queen will be Dany (or maybe even Sansa).

I didn't say they weren't interesting, I said I don't like them. There's a difference.

There's a big difference between "I don't like them" and "[they're] evil, bro". Since Aegon the Conqueror united the continent, the Targaryen dynasty has been by far the most influential force in Westeros. And most of the ones we know about are heroes: Aemon the Dragonknight, Bloodraven, Aegon V, Maester Aemon, Rhaegar, etc. There were, of course, plenty of bad eggs as well-- Aerion Brightflame, Aerys II, Viserys-- but nowhere near enough to write the entire dynasty off.

And since Targaryen dragons will almost assuredly be necessary to save Westeros from an ice zombie apocalypse, it looks like you're really going to hate GRRM's ending.

 

[wizards8507]

Maggy's prophecy from S5E1 is almost identical to what I posted above. In light of Margaery's fate, the most rational interpretation is that the younger Queen will be Dany (or maybe even Sansa).

But if the younger queen is supposed to "take all that you hold dear," hasn't that ship sailed with the death of Cersei's children (and father)?

There's a big difference between "I don't like them" and "[they're] evil, bro". Since Aegon the Conqueror united the continent, the Targaryen dynasty has been by far the most influential force in Westeros. And most of the ones we know about are heroes: Aemon the Dragonknight, Bloodraven, Aegon V, Maester Aemon, Rhaegar, etc. There were, of course, plenty of bad eggs as well-- Aerion Brightflame, Aerys II, Viserys-- but nowhere near enough to write the entire dynasty off.

You're presupposing that uniting the continent was, in itself, a good thing. I don't believe that. I have a feeling that the Targs and their dragons did something to cause the Doom and I don't think them bringing dragons to Westeros was a net positive.

"The Dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of Khazad-dum... shadow and flame."

Something like that.

And since Targaryen dragons will almost assuredly be necessary to save Westeros from an ice zombie apocalypse, it looks like you're really going to hate GRRM's ending.

Is an ice zombie apocalypse any worse than a fire-and-blood apocalypse? You seem to be operating under a dichotomy where "ice" is bad and "fire" is good, but I don't think GRRM is going to be so straightforward.

 

[IrishLion]

I have a feeling that the Targs and their dragons did something to cause the Doom and I don't think them bringing dragons to Westeros was a net positive.

I thought it was pretty well understood that the Doom was just a massive volcanic eruption that destroyed Valyria?

Now, they could have caused the Doom by accidentally disrupting a magma chamber under the Eleven Flames or whatever they called their Ring of Fire, but I don't think that is an indictment of them as a people.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

But if the younger queen is supposed to "take all that you hold dear," hasn't that ship sailed with the death of Cersei's children (and father)?

I don't think parsing the prophecy so finely is helpful here. She obviously cares about having power, which can be taken from her when the younger and more beautiful queen casts her down.

You're presupposing that uniting the continent was, in itself, a good thing.

I'm certain GRRM doesn't share your politics.

I don't believe that. I have a feeling that the Targs and their dragons did something to cause the Doom and I don't think them bringing dragons to Westeros was a net positive.

"The Dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of Khazad-dum... shadow and flame."

Something like that.

Could be. We also know that Valyrian civilization was built upon brutal slave labor, which led to the formation of the Faceless Men, who may have worked to trigger the Doom themselves. Regardless, the Targaryen dynasty != Valyrian society. It's more akin to the Romans tracing their mythical heritage back to ancient Troy through Aeneas. In fact, the Targaryens had their very own Cassandra in the form of Daenys the Dreamer.

Is an ice zombie apocalypse any worse than a fire-and-blood apocalypse? You seem to be operating under a dichotomy where "ice" is bad and "fire" is good, but I don't think GRRM is going to be so straightforward.

Since Dany is coming to simply reclaim the Iron Throne while the Night's King seems bent on killing every man, woman and child in Westeros, yes, it looks like Dany's "apocalypse" is much preferable to the alternative. Given GRRM's penchant for undermining common fantasy tropes, I understand the allure of theories like "the Others are really the good guys!" But as the show continues to confirm the most rational fan theories, those sorts of meta-twisting end game seem less and less likely.

 

[gkIrish]

Not likely.



Jamie's gonna strangle her to death with his golden hand.

There are plenty of possibilities for who the valonqar is. Arya is described as a boy all the time. I think it's completely plausible that she is the valonqar unless there is more to the prophecy I am unaware of.

 

[wizards8507]

I'm certain GRRM doesn't share your politics.

Every once in awhile, George will tip his hand.

"Then these other swordsmen have the true power. Or do they? Whence came their swords? Why do they obey?" Varys smiled. "Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law. Yet that day on the steps of Baelor's Sept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or ... another?"

Tyrion cocked his head sideways. "Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only make my head ache worse?"

Varys smiled. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

"So power is a mummer's trick?"

"A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow."

- A Clash of Kings, Chapter 8, Tyrion II

Given that, I'd be shocked if Dany wins the Iron Throne based on the crude fact that she has three dragons and a khalasar. Those are certainly the trappings of power, but they don't answer the riddle.