Everything Soccer

[Rogue219]

I didn't watch any of the match highlights yet. Sounds like the ref let them play?

Pulisic cured 12 lepers. Before halftime.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Gentlemen: remember that this is a soccer rookie talking ....

Can this team play with Pulisic, Wood, Dempsey, and Nagbe up front, and let Pulisic, Nagbe, and Wood harass the opponent high? Clint would help but let the younger antelopes chase. Could that harassment let us get some mid-field turnovers and quick strikes? (that crazed harassment {what our football staff would call "workrate"} is the reason that Bedoya adds something once in a while, and why Altidore voids us out of anything in that area.)

I still believe that we need Bradley, as he usually is the only mid-fielder who typically passes well --- this game seems almost entirely about passing to me when it comes to scoring. This USMNT seems astoundingly lacking in good passers. Do we have any other good creative passers as mid-fielders? Is this fellow Kljestan, however it's spelled, capable? He seemed so in two games I saw.

It seems like it's "futbol" for a reason, not heavy-touch-it-to-the-opponent-bol.

 

[fightingirish26]

Gentlemen: remember that this is a soccer rookie talking ....

Can this team play with Pulisic, Wood, Dempsey, and Nagbe up front, and let Pulisic, Nagbe, and Wood harass the opponent high? Clint would help but let the younger antelopes chase. Could that harassment let us get some mid-field turnovers and quick strikes? (that crazed harassment {what our football staff would call "workrate"} is the reason that Bedoya adds something once in a while, and why Altidore voids us out of anything in that area.)

I still believe that we need Bradley, as he usually is the only mid-fielder who typically passes well --- this game seems almost entirely about passing to me when it comes to scoring. This USMNT seems astoundingly lacking in good passers. Do we have any other good creative passers as mid-fielders? Is this fellow Kljestan, however it's spelled, capable? He seemed so in two games I saw.

It seems like it's "futbol" for a reason, not heavy-touch-it-to-the-opponent-bol.

I would love to see us press our CONCACAF opponents, but it's hard to do that when you have Bradley and Jones in midfield. Jones doesn't have the mobility anymore, but his days with the USMNT are numbered anyway so that'll sort itself out. I am a big Bradley-hater, I think he embarrasses himself everytime he's on the pitch. Contrary to what you say, he sucks at passing IMO, all he can do is pass it sideways and he tries that stupid over the top long pass way too often. Don't see any scenario where he gets dropped from the starting XI anytime soon tho, and I certainly like him more in a deeper midfield role rather than a no. 10 role.

For me, assuming everyone is healthy, my starting XI (against CONCACAF teams not named Mexico) would be

ST-Wood
ST-Dempsey
LM-Nagbe
CAM-Pulisic
RM-Fabian Johnson
CM-Bradley
LB-Villafana
CB-Brooks
CB-Cameron
RB-Yedlin
GK-Howard

 

[Emcee77]

Gentlemen: remember that this is a soccer rookie talking ....

Can this team play with Pulisic, Wood, Dempsey, and Nagbe up front, and let Pulisic, Nagbe, and Wood harass the opponent high? Clint would help but let the younger antelopes chase. Could that harassment let us get some mid-field turnovers and quick strikes? (that crazed harassment {what our football staff would call "workrate"} is the reason that Bedoya adds something once in a while, and why Altidore voids us out of anything in that area.)

OMM, if your question is whether this is a valid soccer tactic, absolutely it is. A frenetic high press is how Jurgen Klopp took Dortmund to the top of the Bundesliga, and he is the guy who bought Pulisic and brought him to Dortmund.

I think it's a really intriguing idea. I love the idea of the three young guys as a pressing front three.

But I don't really see a place for Dempsey in that system. He could conceivably play as an advanced midfielder with an energetic holding-ish midfield two behind him, but which players would play those roles? Jones, at 35, sure didn't look up to it last night, and Bradley doesn't have that kind of mobility. Our back 4 would end up exposed. This smacks of the sort of jerry-rigged system England and Man U tried to make Wayne Rooney work in for too long.

Another, probably better option, if we were to institute a pressing system, would be to play Bradley as a holding midfielder/quarterback spraying long passes, which he is great at. Then we play an energetic midfield two in front of him but behind the front 3. But who would those two be? I'm not sure we have the horses--though I'll admit I don't usually follow the USMNT or MLS that closely. Maybe there are such guys, and I'm just not aware of them? I do like what I've seen (which isn't much) from Kellyn Acosta. Maybe he is an option? I'd be interested to know what others think.

It's an interesting thought experiment, although I doubt it will be the direction we actually go, at least in the near term. Certainly we want Dempsey's quality on the field, and there may be other veterans who are not right for an energetic pressing system but who we want to run out there for other reasons.

I still believe that we need Bradley, as he usually is the only mid-fielder who typically passes well --- this game seems almost entirely about passing to me when it comes to scoring. This USMNT seems astoundingly lacking in good passers. Do we have any other good creative passers as mid-fielders? Is this fellow Kljestan, however it's spelled, capable? He seemed so in two games I saw.

It seems like it's "futbol" for a reason, not heavy-touch-it-to-the-opponent-bol.

I tend to agree, although again I am open to correction. I don't see anyone else with Bradley's long passing ability, and it's great to have that at the base of midfield. Also set pieces.

 

[Emcee77]

I was thinking about the "OMM system" more over lunch. The more I think about it the more I like it. Maybe use Gyasi Zardes, whenever he gets healthy, as one of the front 3, and then move Nagbe into one of the CM positions. He'd be as good as Wijnaldum has been in that position for Liverpool. Then the other CM could be Acosta or Bedoya. And Emerson Hyndman could grow into the role as he continues to develop. I'd love to see them try it.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I appreciate you guys educating me about these things, since watching soccer for me has begun to feel like any other team sport --- there's a flow required and critical talents at critical moments to maintain that flow. Watching the overseas greats, these teams all have mid-fielders who destroy offenses, turn the attack around, spot space gaps and TAKE-the-Space, then get some Rolls Royce the ball slickly and he takes the glory.

On some of the teams, a Rolls Royce is so good that he Takes-the-Space almost on his own, and then come the magic feet --- but it all comes from AGGRESSION. One place where an inferior team (and a relatively young one) might create aggression and opponent error is full-field harassment by the front, leading to mid-field destruction turnovers, and aggressive mid-fielder taking space on attack. It seems to me that Klopp convinced his high-paid dudes to earn their salaries and bust butt, and Liverpool became instantly dangerous. He's got better guys than we have, but cannot we get as much speed, aggression, and passing "on the pitch" as we can?

I think that if I have to risk losing, I'd rather watch my team risk it by giving it all the He!l we can. ........ obviously I don't know what I'm talking about or smart people like Klinsman and Arena would just do it. Sometimes it looks like everyone's a little scared. Klopp had to tell his guys that if they were aggressive within his system and blew it, so be it --- go down guns blazing.

 

[NorthDakota]

I appreciate you guys educating me about these things, since watching soccer for me has begun to feel like any other team sport --- there's a flow required and critical talents at critical moments to maintain that flow. Watching the overseas greats, these teams all have mid-fielders who destroy offenses, turn the attack around, spot space gaps and TAKE-the-Space, then get some Rolls Royce the ball slickly and he takes the glory.

On some of the teams, a Rolls Royce is so good that he Takes-the-Space almost on his own, and then come the magic feet --- but it all comes from AGGRESSION. One place where an inferior team (and a relatively young one) might create aggression and opponent error is full-field harassment by the front, leading to mid-field destruction turnovers, and aggressive mid-fielder taking space on attack. It seems to me that Klopp convinced his high-paid dudes to earn their salaries and bust butt, and Liverpool became instantly dangerous. He's got better guys than we have, but cannot we get as much speed, aggression, and passing "on the pitch" as we can?

I think that if I have to risk losing, I'd rather watch my team risk it by giving it all the He!l we can. ........ obviously I don't know what I'm talking about or smart people like Klinsman and Arena would just do it. Sometimes it looks like everyone's a little scared. Klopp had to tell his guys that if they were aggressive within his system and blew it, so be it --- go down guns blazing.

Turn on Liverpool this weekend. Enjoy.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I guess that's some slap at me, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to get the "joke." If it's nothing more than Liverpool's enigmatic poor showings against the low end of the EPL, I've yet to hear anyone who can explain it on TV. Either way, it seems not much to the point of discussing the USMNT which I was enjoying listening to the other fellows.

 

[Cackalacky]

I guess that's some slap at me, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to get the "joke." If it's nothing more than Liverpool's enigmatic poor showings against the low end of the EPL, I've yet to hear anyone who can explain it on TV. Either way, it seems not much to the point of discussing the USMNT which I was enjoying listening to the other fellows.

OMM,
Please execuse North Dakota and his inability to make nuanced connections. I may be able to tease it out for you.

Klopp who used to coach Dortmund and now coaches Liverpool brought his geigenpressing philosophy to the Reds. I think you know this so just stating the progress the discussion. Klopp has been supremely successful against the top teams in the EPL ( they have the most points against the top half of the table). His system is great against teams that play open flowing football. However the bottom teams have figured out that parking the bus and counter attacks is the best and most effective play agaisnt geigenpressing. Liverpool is unable to play their game when it involves trying to unlock 10 men in the box. They are unable to grind out 1-0 wins. So to tie that to your original questions.... Your proposed system would be effective and ideal given Dempsey had a free role, Jones isnt involved and we try to put the most talent on the field. But against many CONCACAF teams we must grind out 1-0 wins in hositle environments. And I dont think it could be a full time system.
I could see something like this working

Wood
Pulisic Dempsey Nagbe Bedoya
Bradley
Villafana Brooks Gonzales/Cameron LB (?)



But more iften than not we will be in some variation of 4-4-2 to get points during qualifying. After all a 1-0 win is 3 points. If you want to research this style, the Italians are historically famous for 1-0 wins playing beautiful football. They also have had a defensive midfielder named Pirlo that can unlock a defense in a heartbeat. Bradley tries to be this guy and this is how Bradley is best deployed IMO but obviously he lacks the tactical awareness and skills Pirlo has. (Not sure you have heard of or seen him.)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Vfxs8v67nbY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I think we need a team that is adaptable in World Cup games, but qualifers we need a team that get the crucial wins/ draws (points) on the road.

 

[Old Man Mike]

To Cackalacky: Thanks much for the informative response. I'm always wishing for some education on these topics, and you're one of the few who takes time to give it. As an old teacher I appreciate that --- a lot.

Re: Liverpool (though not the original topic) --- I wonder if Klopp just doesn't have enough talent on hand to break down a Park-the-Bus team. (once they've parked it.) But why doesn't it pay off when the Parkers DO get the ball? Is it, since Klopp has everyone running around pressing, do they get beat more often by what soccer folks call, I believe, a "direct" attack? So is his problem his back four (guys closest to own goal --- I haven't even cleared my mind on words like front and back completely.) Anyway, though entertained by Klopp and Liverpool (I'm entertained by Klopp even if they lose, by the way), my interest is really in USMNT.

Re: USMNT --- I begin wondering about Altidore right off because I saw too much errant passing, but moreso he seemed just "in the way" clogging flow up against many opponents. I'll admit, when there is something about a match which fits his skill, and his desire to move his frame around with physicality, that's nice to see two goals. But it reminded me of playing BBall with someone who'd score 40 one game but help lose the next four by general "drifting" play messing everyone else up. Then, while watching the Girls,(the slower pace makes things clearer,) the vitally important team trait of NOT clogging and not passing heavy in the last third became in-my-face "obvious" (I know, but stunning to see certain players being REGULAR offenders). This made it seem that if the game was not an Altidore-type game, we were going to lose due to no other offense. I felt that I must be wrong about this, otherwise why would he be out there? (The Girls had an eerily similar problem when Wambach had her last go-round.)

As to Zardes: when I first saw him play I thought that he was a real addition, with all that speed down the edge. As time went on, I noticed the heavy and errant touches being (to my eye) way too frequent --- offense going backward in middle third of the field. Hopefully that's not him, but my crude view wouldn't have him on a touch-passing team.

 

[GowerND11]

To Cackalacky: Thanks much for the informative response. I'm always wishing for some education on these topics, and you're one of the few who takes time to give it. As an old teacher I appreciate that --- a lot.

Re: Liverpool (though not the original topic) --- I wonder if Klopp just doesn't have enough talent on hand to break down a Park-the-Bus team. (once they've parked it.) But why doesn't it pay off when the Parkers DO get the ball? Is it, since Klopp has everyone running around pressing, do they get beat more often by what soccer folks call, I believe, a "direct" attack? So is his problem his back four (guys closest to own goal --- I haven't even cleared my mind on words like front and back completely.) Anyway, though entertained by Klopp and Liverpool (I'm entertained by Klopp even if they lose, by the way), my interest is really in USMNT.

Re: USMNT --- I begin wondering about Altidore right off because I saw too much errant passing, but moreso he seemed just "in the way" clogging flow up against many opponents. I'll admit, when there is something about a match which fits his skill, and his desire to move his frame around with physicality, that's nice to see two goals. But it reminded me of playing BBall with someone who'd score 40 one game but help lose the next four by general "drifting" play messing everyone else up. Then, while watching the Girls,(the slower pace makes things clearer,) the vitally important team trait of NOT clogging and not passing heavy in the last third became in-my-face "obvious" (I know, but stunning to see certain players being REGULAR offenders). This made it seem that if the game was not an Altidore-type game, we were going to lose due to no other offense. I felt that I must be wrong about this, otherwise why would he be out there? (The Girls had an eerily similar problem when Wambach had her last go-round.)

As to Zardes: when I first saw him play I thought that he was a real addition, with all that speed down the edge. As time went on, I noticed the heavy and errant touches being (to my eye) way too frequent --- offense going backward in middle third of the field. Hopefully that's not him, but my crude view wouldn't have him on a touch-passing team.

Liverpool: One of the main problems against those park the bus teams is they are already back defending, so even if Liverpool gets the ball, they cannot break like they want to. Against other free flowing teams, the pressing is a benefit because if they intercept the ball high up the pitch, the opposition is low on numbers to help defend.

Another problem for teams that high press a lot, can be they don't have the patience to play the passing game, breaking down the defenders, sweep the ball side to side, make the right (if not cute) passes to wear the defenders down. Often time this leads to a poor pass which can result in a counter attack, especially if a team like Liverpool starts surging ahead with only 2 defenders in the back.

I would love to see the USMNT press more, but as Cack said, we play in a poor region to do so. We have to play to grind it out, though we are able to open the game up sometimes. That's why it's huge for the USMNT to get up early against CONCACAF teams. Usually (with the exception of Mexico) they all lack the necessary firepower to overcome a quick onslaught from the USMNT. When scoring early, this leads to massive defensive holes which our guys on the wing can exploit. On the flip side, the longer the game is 0-0, or worse, we are down, the harder it is for us to really turn it on against the style these teams employ.


No expert, just what I see when watching.

 

[nlroma1o]

To Cackalacky: Thanks much for the informative response. I'm always wishing for some education on these topics, and you're one of the few who takes time to give it. As an old teacher I appreciate that --- a lot.

Re: Liverpool (though not the original topic) --- I wonder if Klopp just doesn't have enough talent on hand to break down a Park-the-Bus team. (once they've parked it.) But why doesn't it pay off when the Parkers DO get the ball? Is it, since Klopp has everyone running around pressing, do they get beat more often by what soccer folks call, I believe, a "direct" attack? So is his problem his back four (guys closest to own goal --- I haven't even cleared my mind on words like front and back completely.) Anyway, though entertained by Klopp and Liverpool (I'm entertained by Klopp even if they lose, by the way), my interest is really in USMNT.

Re: USMNT --- I begin wondering about Altidore right off because I saw too much errant passing, but moreso he seemed just "in the way" clogging flow up against many opponents. I'll admit, when there is something about a match which fits his skill, and his desire to move his frame around with physicality, that's nice to see two goals. But it reminded me of playing BBall with someone who'd score 40 one game but help lose the next four by general "drifting" play messing everyone else up. Then, while watching the Girls,(the slower pace makes things clearer,) the vitally important team trait of NOT clogging and not passing heavy in the last third became in-my-face "obvious" (I know, but stunning to see certain players being REGULAR offenders). This made it seem that if the game was not an Altidore-type game, we were going to lose due to no other offense. I felt that I must be wrong about this, otherwise why would he be out there? (The Girls had an eerily similar problem when Wambach had her last go-round.)

As to Zardes: when I first saw him play I thought that he was a real addition, with all that speed down the edge. As time went on, I noticed the heavy and errant touches being (to my eye) way too frequent --- offense going backward in middle third of the field. Hopefully that's not him, but my crude view wouldn't have him on a touch-passing team.

This is exactly my issue with Altidore. He has a big heart and has his moments, but his recent form for the USMNT has shown that he is not being mobile enough. And to be honest, he's actually quite slow in short distance bursts.

Jozy is best when he plays what people in the business call a "Traditional #9". Back in the day, this player was very often a tall, strong player that would play alone up top next to the last defender. In the flow of a game, their role consisted of wining balls played up to them, holding play up until his midfielders or #10 could catch up to him, and then distribute the ball to them. Or, when you have a gifted 9, and they had the right amount of over confidence, they can do magical things by themselves when they get a ball fed to them up top. In my lifetime, I think Ibrahimovic and Luca Toni, are the most traditional #9's I personally have watched play. But there are many, many more I cannot think of from the 80's and 90's that might be better examples.

I found a youtube channle that you might be interested in. This guy makes videos explaining certain tactics and player summaries in a very clear, concise way in short videos.

See the link if you want to check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGYYNGmyhZ_kwBF_lqqXdAQ

 

[Whiskeyjack]

They also have had a defensive midfielder named Pirlo that can unlock a defense in a heartbeat. Bradley tries to be this guy and this is how Bradley is best deployed IMO but obviously he lacks the tactical awareness and skills Pirlo has. (Not sure you have heard of or seen him.).

Il professore:

 

[Old Man Mike]

Watched the Pirlo link --- a master artist.

Will try to get to the youtube link sometime --- thanks to you both.

What is the difference between Lewandowski and a traditional nine like Ibrahimovic (who is a little awesome to watch sometimes --- weirdly light-footed and clever for a monster)?

 

[nlroma1o]

Watched the Pirlo link --- a master artist.

Will try to get to the youtube link sometime --- thanks to you both.

What is the difference between Lewandowski and a traditional nine like Ibrahimovic (who is a little awesome to watch sometimes --- weirdly light-footed and clever for a monster)?

I would argue that Lewandowski is also a Traditional #9. He just tends to start his runs from a wider position sometimes, rather than being that figure smack in the middle like Ibra.

 

[Emcee77]

Agree with most everyone. Altidore is a good target player, and it makes sense to play him as such so that Dempsey can make runs off of him. I tend to agree with Bruce Arena that playing these two up top, with Pulisic and Nagbe on the wings, Bradley as a #6 (i.e. the deepest-lying midfielder playing right in front of the back 4), and someone else as a #8 (box-to-box CM) (probably not Jermaine Jones, on Tuesday's evidence) is the best way to organize our front 6 right now. But as more promising young players develop, I'm looking forward to seeing how we might change things up going forward.

 

[nlroma1o]

Agree with most everyone. Altidore is a good target player, and it makes sense to play him as such so that Dempsey can make runs off of him. I tend to agree with Bruce Arena that playing these two up top, with Pulisic and Nagbe on the wings, Bradley as a #6 (i.e. the deepest-lying midfielder playing right in front of the back 4), and someone else as a #8 (box-to-box CM) (probably not Jermaine Jones, on Tuesday's evidence) is the best way to organize our front 6 right now. But as more promising young players develop, I'm looking forward to seeing how we might change things up going forward.

Pulisic was playing that Attacking CM position in the Honduras match, and I think that's going to be his position in the future, not out wide. At Dortmund, with the injury to Marco Reus, Pulisic is playing that attack CM role and he's thriving.

 

[Cackalacky]

Schweinsteiger signed with Chicago Fire

 

[NorthDakota]

This weekend was about as much as I could ask for.

Pool wins...although the Mane injury will take some shine off of that.
United draw.
Chelsea lose(don't care about them though, they are going to win the league)
Arsenal and City draw.

City still plays Chelsea and United
United still plays Chelsea, Arsenal, City, and Spurs
Spurs still play Chelsea, Arsenal, and United.

Come on Reds!

 

[Rocket89]

This weekend was about as much as I could ask for.

Pool wins...although the Mane injury will take some shine off of that.
United draw.
Chelsea lose(don't care about them though, they are going to win the league)
Arsenal and City draw.

City still plays Chelsea and United
United still plays Chelsea, Arsenal, City, and Spurs
Spurs still play Chelsea, Arsenal, and United.

Come on Reds!

Scratch Chelsea off Tottenham's list. That's the FA Cup semi-final game.

 

[NorthDakota]

Scratch Chelsea off Tottenham's list. That's the FA Cup semi-final game.

Shoot. Missed that.

 

[Emcee77]

This weekend was about as much as I could ask for.

Pool wins...although the Mane injury will take some shine off of that.
United draw.
Chelsea lose(don't care about them though, they are going to win the league)
Arsenal and City draw.

City still plays Chelsea and United
United still plays Chelsea, Arsenal, City, and Spurs
Spurs still play Chelsea, Arsenal, and United.

Come on Reds!

Yep, good weekend for Reds' top 4 chances. At least for the moment, they control their own top 4 destiny. But these injuries are worrying. There won't be many attacking changes to make on Wednesday. We can throw on some of the young guns if necessary, but we will be completely out of experienced depth.

 

[Rogue219]

Mourinho loses or draws, throws a presser tantrum and everyone talks about that. He does misdirection as well as anyone.

Liverpool sent Jordan Henderson and Adam Lallana to the USA for treatment. Doesn't bode well too with Mane likely missing Bournemouth on Wednesday and being out longer.

Ozil is a dog. Seriously keep that guy. Overvalued player. It would be sad, however, if both Aguero and Sanchez are in La Liga next year. I guess Pep doesn't rate Aguero for some reason.

Brendan Rodgers: "Celtic would be one of the minimum top four, top six clubs in the English Premier League."

 

[ACamp1900]

I don't think anyone doubts that Celtic would be a CL type club anywhere in the world with the income increase they'd get in other leagues... it's the only hurdle they have.

 

[fightingirish26]

I don't think anyone doubts that Celtic would be a CL type club anywhere in the world with the income increase they'd get in other leagues... it's the only hurdle they have.

I doubt it

 

[ACamp1900]

I doubt it

* Anyone who knows what they're talking about.

 

[GowerND11]

I don't think anyone doubts that Celtic would be a CL type club anywhere in the world with the income increase they'd get in other leagues... it's the only hurdle they have.

I think it would be interesting if they were in the EPL. I have a feeling not many teams would like to travel there, could cause them fits.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't think anyone doubts that Celtic would be a CL type club anywhere in the world with the income increase they'd get in other leagues... it's the only hurdle they have.

No self-respecting Scotsman wants anything to do with the English.

 

[ACamp1900]

Love that scene... lol

 

[Rogue219]

Does anyone want the third and fourth place spots in the Premier League?

Swansea should be relegated just based on yesterday alone. What a pathetic display that ways. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Can't understand Klopp pulling Coutinho and going to a back five. Only Liverpool can try to park the bus and concede an equalizer late.