Environmental Issues

NDWarrior

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You're right because that's the problem. This stuff is shoved under the rug and you never hear about it. And yes, I'll admit, since I have seen the terrible person that Musk is, I especially scrutinize his DC new and xAI stories now that I know how ruthless he is. But with any of these examples, up hearing about them, I would think it's shitty for these companies to do this to this and other poor regions and the local and state government should step in. And I agree that I'm sure both parties don't have a great record for things like this that they both want to keep out of the general public / media. I also heard about that poor county in AL that has the shittiest (no pun intended) sewage system ever and at least the last admin had reserved some funds to try and clean it up, but then Trump admin came along and removed the funds as it was too DEI of a project for the government to support. What a shitty thing to do.
 

RDU Irish

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Whoa there RUDE, er, I mean RDU Irish person. Who said NIMBY? How about Musk can be a bit more transparent and maybe divulge some plans where he's going to leverage cleaner energy sources (hydrogen, nuclear, etc.) for DC expansion in the future (Not saying Zuckerberg is a saint, but he at least he's fronting using solar and nuclear down the road and working with the Richland Parish, LA region for his newest Manhattan sized AI DC)? And how about he follow some of the local government processes like getting the proper local permits. And maybe trying to balance the need for scaling AI infrastructure as quickly as possible with trying to include some emission reducing technology in the mix? He snuck this DC into this poor region via a I'm sure fire-sale old Electorlux factory site, and likely shirked a lot of regulations. And this kind of feels like, if Musk finds or builds a better facility down the road, he's just going to abandon this makeshift operation that's serving his need for immediate AI power capacity on the cheap, leaving behind a big, extended emissions shit on the region.

Economically challenged? Uh, it sounds like to me, pretty poor and black, and to Irish#1's point, an area that has been getting shit on with emissions for decades (which doesn't make piling on more to somehow be ok). And DCs usually bring a burst of jobs in the short term for construction and this was more of a conversion of an existing factory so not much construction there (and something tells me there wouldn't be much hiring of locals anyway). And longer term, if Musk even sticks around, DCs take 50-100 people (if not less) to run long term, if that. And tax collections vs. tax incentives are a mixed bag.

So forgive the locals and myself for being "economically illiterate" and caring about a situation where a super-rich guy who is a terrible human being and supreme manipulator runs roughshod over a community just because they have a long history of being shit on and figures no one cares. So yes, I'm noticing Musk and his usual tactics here, but they are definitely not the only region grappling and dealing with both the benefits and downsides (natural gas powered DC emissions pollution, strain on the grid and on the water supply, etc.) of these rapidly proliferating DCs being built across the country rn (see New Braunfels in Hays County Texas where a new Cloudburst DC is being built).

"Emission reducing technology" - LOL, OK. Unicorn horns and puppy dog tails are not going to power the AI revolution. You are tap dancing around the larger issue of - nobody GAF about carbon footprint when it comes to crypto and AI but we should all revert to a medieval standard of living and eat bugs. Y'all are behind the eighball here after ignoring crypto energy consumption - AI gonna put that in overdrive.

Memphis has an opportunity for economic advancement funded by the richest man on Earth. He is taking an abandoned industrial property and repurposing it - apparently a bad thing to require less work (what about the environment!). If Musk's counterparty risk is unacceptable then enjoy your continued poverty as Memphis accelerates it's spiral to shithole status.
 

TorontoGold

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Nobody cared!!! = I didn't know about this issue before and I'm arrogant enough to believe that everyone else was as uninformed as I was.
 

ColoradoIrish

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Nobody cared!!! = I didn't know about this issue before and I'm arrogant enough to believe that everyone else was as uninformed as I was.
It was concern the whole time.

 

RDU Irish

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That's not a very mainstream opposition. Consider the activist investors going after big oil or cutting coal out of financial markets. BP just divested a bunch of wind farms they were pressured into wasting money on. Are we really going to pretend a few solar panels on top of an AI DC is being environmentally responsible?

The real answer is nuclear - btw. Energy infrastructure needs to expand asap to support this train that has already left the station.
 

LifelongFan

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AI wouldn't be worth it if it helped the environment. At least the way xAI, Google, and everyone else is currently using it. Dumbest shit ever, even if it is funny when old people are fooled by it.
 

NDWarrior

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"Emission reducing technology" - LOL, OK. Unicorn horns and puppy dog tails are not going to power the AI revolution. You are tap dancing around the larger issue of - nobody GAF about carbon footprint when it comes to crypto and AI but we should all revert to a medieval standard of living and eat bugs. Y'all are behind the eighball here after ignoring crypto energy consumption - AI gonna put that in overdrive.

Memphis has an opportunity for economic advancement funded by the richest man on Earth. He is taking an abandoned industrial property and repurposing it - apparently a bad thing to require less work (what about the environment!). If Musk's counterparty risk is unacceptable then enjoy your continued poverty as Memphis accelerates it's spiral to shithole status.

Again, you talk like you know everything about the issues here, and the points I'm trying to make, but you're wrong on all counts my friend.
Of course there's a balance between job growth and additional local businesses that the DC may drive, but these positives have to be considered along with the downsides which is massive methane gas pollution; Musk is not committing to any green or clean energy sources for the massive data center; xAI claims its onsite power generation will be equipped with "emissions control technology" but has not committed to this to date. And although he got (controversial) approval for 15 turbines, he actually has 33 turbines running around the clock. Not a lot of jobs created either - As of January, the DC was looking to hire 20 Memphis-based positions, with 11 focused on data center operations.

Now look at how Meta is going about building a DC in rural Louisiana (again, Meta and Zuckerberg are no angels either), but they are committing to clean energy and making local investments and going through the permit process transparently. This DC also will start with Gas Turbines because it's the quickest energy source to get up and running and one of the most powerful and efficient for powering the DC. But man these are massive DCs and will be utilizing a huge amount of the electric grid's energy - This DC site is going to be the equivalent of about 1,700 football fields. Meta’s newest data center will ultimately create just 500 permanent jobs, though employment will briefly swell to about 5,000 during construction.

So yes, massive amounts of energy and water for DC cooling are needed so there needs to be a discussion and planning, and a balance to the energy sources where maybe there are gas emissions but that hopefully can tail off in the future as clean and green sources are built and brought online. You know damn well if a proposed DC was going to be pumping this kind of gas into your community, you would be the first to yell NIMBY as loud as can be!

For sure, there were good tax and depreciation incentives in the President's AI Action Plan announced yesterday, but it's also backing off emissions regulations and disfavoring any green energy. At the end of the day, there needs to be planning and discussion and a balanced approach that also takes into account the local communities' concerns about proposed DCs. Already it's been reported that In response to the Trump administration's AI Action Plan, environmental advocates in Indiana, Virginia, and Tennessee said data centers have led to higher electricity prices and increased pollution.

So I disagree with you that in fact people "care about a DC's carbon footprint when it comes to AI." And no, that doesn't mean "we should all revert to a medieval standard of living and eat bugs."
 

RDU Irish

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Yeah this one is coming at you whether you like it or not. Greens over played their cards and now it's swinging back when the richest, most powerful companies on the planet need power. US is going to need to double its power output in short order to stay in the AI race. These modern day factories are infinitely cleaner than an old steel mill. You make it out like Gary Indiana is coming to Memphis. Multi billion dollar investment in your community with hundreds of high paying jobs and a massive increase in the tax base. Tesla isn't even going to need tax incentives - just work with them! I'd rather have this tucked in a corner of my community than endless FedEx flights overhead 24/7.

All the grade school teachers should be promoting IG and TikToc as ruining the environment. They thought SUVs were killing the planet when its really all the social media addicts. Reduce your screen time and save the world! Bleeding heart teenage girls - turn off your phone!
 

TorontoGold

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Yeah this one is coming at you whether you like it or not. Greens over played their cards and now it's swinging back when the richest, most powerful companies on the planet need power. US is going to need to double its power output in short order to stay in the AI race. These modern day factories are infinitely cleaner than an old steel mill. You make it out like Gary Indiana is coming to Memphis. Multi billion dollar investment in your community with hundreds of high paying jobs and a massive increase in the tax base. Tesla isn't even going to need tax incentives - just work with them! I'd rather have this tucked in a corner of my community than endless FedEx flights overhead 24/7.

All the grade school teachers should be promoting IG and TikToc as ruining the environment. They thought SUVs were killing the planet when its really all the social media addicts. Reduce your screen time and save the world! Bleeding heart teenage girls - turn off your phone!
I hate that I agreed with your first paragraph.

The US is uniquely positioned in having a ton of land that is pretty close to main city centers that is not worth much. If I was a tech oligarch I would go to Indiana/Ohio/Pennsylvania and be like "So 85% of your land is shit hole walking dead strip mall towns, let's wipe those out and get nuclear energy plants up and running". Get the AI super computers there as well. Instead of walking out "manufacturing hurrrr durrrrr" you could easily win the midwest if you promised modern jobs.

Of course this just means that the Dems will promise a county run book store, and the GOP will have new sundown towns.
 

LifelongFan

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I would be in favor of nuclear plants, which got hurt by bad press with 3 Mile Islands and Chernobyl. However the baby got thrown out with the bath water there.

I do not think processing plants will create enough jobs in the community to offset the negatives, especially when it is close to a large population rather than out in the sticks. It is good for construction, although in Indiana we are using way too many out of state contractors for it to keep jobs. Data centers just don't create that many permanent jobs. I will say that the Midwest makes the most sense with water usage.

I am AI-phobic in the end and the less of it, the better. Until AI can do my dishes and clean my floors, keep it away from me.
 

RDU Irish

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I hate that I agreed with your first paragraph.

The US is uniquely positioned in having a ton of land that is pretty close to main city centers that is not worth much. If I was a tech oligarch I would go to Indiana/Ohio/Pennsylvania and be like "So 85% of your land is shit hole walking dead strip mall towns, let's wipe those out and get nuclear energy plants up and running". Get the AI super computers there as well. Instead of walking out "manufacturing hurrrr durrrrr" you could easily win the midwest if you promised modern jobs.

Of course this just means that the Dems will promise a county run book store, and the GOP will have new sundown towns.

I see positives in taking these abandoned industrial sites like Electrolux and rebuilding versus clearcutting new land in the middle of nowhere. Right now those sites are a blight, many are brownfields. Even if "only" producing a couple hundred jobs it is better for that area than zero jobs and a blight. Redevelopment is a bitch - opportunities for these types of sites can be few and far between and cities punch themselves in the nuts all the time getting greedy and pushy when someone finally shows an interest.

I don't see why a massive closed loop geothermal system couldn't do a lot of the cooling to reduce water demand and the roof might as well have nothing but solar panels. I don't disagree that mitigation is important but I take offense to requiring private owners to do things to their property. The companies need to move fast to compete - what are the pathways to "yes"? What are the opportunities to advance - micro nukes being a key IMO.
 

NDWarrior

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Hey man, I agree with AI, progress, Green can't do it all, and clean can't get here tomorrow (takes much longer to build Hydrogen and Nuclear power) and this is a race. And these DCs can be steps towards revitalizing rural, depressed areas for sure.

That said...

- Suddenly slapping together gas turbine powered DCs in droves and all the over place should be done carefully - That's a lot methane gas going into the air
- I'm only specifically calling out Musk because in that case, he slammed through the DC (and now is working on Colossul 2) without investing much in the community and overstepping his permitting for the number of gas generators, and still wonder if he'll be there for the long haul
- In general, strain on the grid and water supply, of course along with volume of emissions, and anything to help reduce this volume should also be considered in a partnership between community and hyperscaler / AI tech company
- Again, in the scheme of things, I'm not seeing a ton of business benefit, even Zuckerberg's LA monster DC will employ only 500 employees at its peak and that may generate some local businesses in support, but how much? Compare this to ExxonMobil establishing its own company town in Spring TX where its HQ employs 10K employees - Big difference
--- For every direct job during the Oil and Gas Extraction/Operations phase, 2.3 total jobs were created throughout the economy
--- Local Spending: The project involved significant investment in the area, including local spending with businesses, including minority- and women-owned, and small businesses. For instance, they spent nearly $90 million with small businesses, $24.9 million with women-owned businesses, and $22.3 million with minority-owned businesses
--- Spring, Texas has a 2025 population of 66,338, growing at 1.23% annually. The median age is 33.6, with 43.52% White and 23.31% Black residents
- When tax incentives are taken into account along with new tax revenues, this equation doesn't always majorly benefit these DC regions in this area

And my biggest concern is the potential for people like Musk in cahoots with short-sighted local leaders who do something stupid and dangerous to these communities - Like maybe helping to exacerbate floods, or at least to ensure the response is slow and minimal in order to wipe out residents and their homes so as to minimize community resistance and their questioning the details (i.e., the gas emissions, what are the benefits to the community, etc.) - Again, I would not hold it past a terrible and arrogant human being called Elon Musk, to do something like this in the name of HIS AI progress and domination.
 

Blazers46

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I am AI-phobic in the end and the less of it, the better. Until AI can do my dishes and clean my floors, keep it away from me.
This reminds me of a conversation I just had with an engineer that works for a government contractor. They were having a conversation about artificial intelligence and artificial labor. They were talking about once artificial intelligence starts doing manual labor will then be called artificial labor. It would still be driven by artificial intelligence. Right now artificial intelligence is designed for problem-solving, Learning and even decision making. But artificial intelligence is not the one acting on that Information. I think the conversation was leaning toward artificial intelligence and what it’s used for now seems OK but once artificial intelligence is geared toward artificial labor, that will change the whole ball game.
 

Irish#1

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I hate that I agreed with your first paragraph.

The US is uniquely positioned in having a ton of land that is pretty close to main city centers that is not worth much. If I was a tech oligarch I would go to Indiana/Ohio/Pennsylvania and be like "So 85% of your land is shit hole walking dead strip mall towns, let's wipe those out and get nuclear energy plants up and running". Get the AI super computers there as well. Instead of walking out "manufacturing hurrrr durrrrr" you could easily win the midwest if you promised modern jobs.

Of course this just means that the Dems will promise a county run book store, and the GOP will have new sundown towns.
Indiana stepped away from manufacturing as a primary employer a long time ago. The focus has been in the tech and pharma sectors. As I posted previously, either Google or Amazon is wanting to build a DC a few miles from my house. There are several other DC's going to be built in Indiana. Eli Lily is building a new facility in the Lebanon area. NE Indiana has quite a few medical related companies.

I agree with Lifelong that nuclear is the way to go. Not sure we missed the boat though. Just need to plant the seeds of how safe it is today and work towards erasing the negative perception.
 

Irish#1

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This reminds me of a conversation I just had with an engineer that works for a government contractor. They were having a conversation about artificial intelligence and artificial labor. They were talking about once artificial intelligence starts doing manual labor will then be called artificial labor. It would still be driven by artificial intelligence. Right now artificial intelligence is designed for problem-solving, Learning and even decision making. But artificial intelligence is not the one acting on that Information. I think the conversation was leaning toward artificial intelligence and what it’s used for now seems OK but once artificial intelligence is geared toward artificial labor, that will change the whole ball game.

I think a lot of people are fear mongering about AI without really putting a lot of thought into it. When computers became more established in businesses in the 60's, people thought many would be put out of work. We're now more than ever dependent on computers and the need for tech people (programmers, security, web, network, server/storage, etc.) has grown. When robots were introduced into manufacturing people thought manufacturing jobs would be eliminated. Honda Greensburg employees about 3,000 people. My suspicion is that AI is going to create jobs that require a new skillset.
 

NDWarrior

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I think a lot of people are fear mongering about AI without really putting a lot of thought into it. When computers became more established in businesses in the 60's, people thought many would be put out of work. We're now more than ever dependent on computers and the need for tech people (programmers, security, web, network, server/storage, etc.) has grown. When robots were introduced into manufacturing people thought manufacturing jobs would be eliminated. Honda Greensburg employees about 3,000 people. My suspicion is that AI is going to create jobs that require a new skillset.

I agree... There is a difference between AI jobs and applying AI to jobs and companies (even starting whole new bus. models) and the massive DCs that power AI for sure. Not sure how great the economic affect is from the DCs but they are much needed.

My concerns about DCs already noted here.

AI will unleash a lot of innovation (is the idea anyway) but we're in a kind of interim pain period right now. I'm personally looking for a new tech Acct Mgr job and the market is kind of at a standstill rn, but AI is only one reason why.

What is concerning for me right now is we are in a kind of a Robber Baron period where all the Tech Bros. I mentioned, in an effort to win the AI race (more against their competitor are controlling things in order to gain total domination vs. competitor rather than against China), where AI Data Center capacity and AI wealth is highly concentrated and with all that power, rn are in some ways stifling the growth of innovative companies as the companies (and really, now the talent) for up to 100s of millions $s, and even leaving the rest of the employees counting on an exit event payout, holding the remaining shell of the company they're leaving.
And you the AI infrastructure is very capital and resource intensive which includes all the environmental and ethical issues outlined here.

Lastly, most concerning is that the Tech Bros. who have the great Power, $ and control are allying with the New Right and all too willing to help crack down on U.S. citizens. to get maintain that control and get their way.
 

NDWarrior

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Are you f---ing kidding me! The inept leading the stupid in TX. How ass backwards is that state led by that clown of a Governor? This is unforgivable and ridiculous and they all should be fired and forced to do time. Kerr County emergency coordinator says he was out sick when floods hit Texas I still say there are bad intentions here, even if it is just that these officials purposely let the waters run rampant and homes and people get destroyed for some nefarious purpose (my gut tells me to clear the way for huge data centers). Absolutely unbelievable.
 

Irish#1

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Are you f---ing kidding me! The inept leading the stupid in TX. How ass backwards is that state led by that clown of a Governor? This is unforgivable and ridiculous and they all should be fired and forced to do time. Kerr County emergency coordinator says he was out sick when floods hit Texas I still say there are bad intentions here, even if it is just that these officials purposely let the waters run rampant and homes and people get destroyed for some nefarious purpose (my gut tells me to clear the way for huge data centers). Absolutely unbelievable.
To the bolded.......Once again, everything isn't a conspiracy.

Kerr county as a whole and it's officials need to be held accountable. As already mentioned, Kerr county more than once voted not to implement a warning system because it was too expensive. I bet I know how the vote will go this time.
 

Blazers46

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To the bolded.......Once again, everything isn't a conspiracy.

Kerr county as a whole and it's officials need to be held accountable. As already mentioned, Kerr county more than once voted not to implement a warning system because it was too expensive. I bet I know how the vote will go this time.
Biden laptop not real, Trump/Russia and flooding whole counties for data centers…
 

NDWarrior

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Sure, I said that engineered flooding is a wild speculation (but is certainly not implausible with the technology they're working on), but the whole thing about the local TX officials in charge of things like this down the line abdicating their responsibilities with no kind of back up plan sounds like malice to me. As I said, at the very least, there was a very casual and derelict of duty response to the events and I'm sorry but reading the room with the leaders involved from Trump and Noem, to Gov. Abbott, something smells bad here. I've already read that one of the biggest things the town and county will lose it its property tax base. I will keep watching how the events unfold here over the coming months as the area looks to rebuild, but I don't see a lot of options with the majority being lower middle class and retired and a majority with no flood insurance and just the wholesale destruction. They are not going to have a lot of options and will be very vulnerable to anything that comes their way that provides some monetary relief. I will be the first to say I was wrong if it unfolds otherwise, but my read of that conference room with Trump and Noem was anything but empathetic and shocked. My opinion anyway.
 

NDWarrior

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I love me some good conspiracy theories but you take the cake my dude.

Again, not so much the conspiracy of the weather stuff itself, but at this point, how those in charge took such a casual and undisciplined approach to being watchful and screwing over their locals.
 

RDU Irish

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Again, not so much the conspiracy of the weather stuff itself, but at this point, how those in charge took such a casual and undisciplined approach to being watchful and screwing over their locals.

Rather than think big daddy gubmint is going to knock on your door to save you - pick up your own boot straps and take care of yourself. (figuratively, not you directly) I blame the people running camp in a flood zone. Don't care if it is 100 year or 1000 year - you better have your shit together. Treating government like some all knowing sentinel is a fools game - when TF has government gotten it right? Katrina? Western NC? I mean pick a tragedy and government inaction will be the only constant.
 

Giddyup

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There is certain hydro sprays u can add to clouds to cause rain in desert states but humans can’t super spread rain and wind
 

NDWarrior

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Solar and green energy overall is not friendly to big energy and also, unfortunately, this admin wants to promote natural gas as it's needed for immediate and workable energy source for the massive AI and crypto DCs being built. But just because they're not enough doesn't mean we shouldn't still promote green energy as well. It can still play a big part to powering these DCs and taking some pressure off the grid.
 

Bluto

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Rather than think big daddy gubmint is going to knock on your door to save you - pick up your own boot straps and take care of yourself. (figuratively, not you directly) I blame the people running camp in a flood zone. Don't care if it is 100 year or 1000 year - you better have your shit together. Treating government like some all knowing sentinel is a fools game - when TF has government gotten it right? Katrina? Western NC? I mean pick a tragedy and government inaction will be the only constant.
Government funded/built basically all of the modern infrastructure in the US and developed most if not all of the tech that the modern economy is built on.

We’ve let it go to shit in relatively short order due to lack of reinvestment and are now focused on doing things like mining bitcoin and online “influencing”.

Good times.

If we’re talking just disasters (response and recovery). Cal Fire is pretty great and the post fire response to the wildfires in Northern California was pretty great as well.
 
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Old Man Mike

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These things are inevitable in this economic "culture". You cannot keep chasing the last damm nickel in a money stream and not have moments of randomness become disasters. If you're not chasing the last damm nickel, you just might have enough safety redundancy or extra care that the catastrophe is avoided. ... but what-the-Hell, chase that damm nickel.
 

Bishop2b5

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The plane supposedly only reached an altitude of 175 feet before going down. That it was banked almost 90 degrees is odd. A freight shift, total engine failure, a stall of one wing, a catastrophic mechanical failure? This will be an interesting crash investigation.
 
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