Environmental Issues

[Bluto]

Well, I'd hoped you'd address the very real concerns about EV's regarding their net impact on the environment. Sure, they're clean in and of themselves, but the mining, manufacturing, and disposal of the lithium and their batteries, as well as the generation of the electricity they use is far from it. However, you decided to dodge those questions with a challenge that highlights how clean EV's are. Savage, bro. It would actually be a brilliant deflection for the win except for one thing: you don't know much about diesels.

Starting in 2010, the EPA began phasing in the use of an exhaust system on most new diesel engines for use in the US. This system removes virtually all particulates and injects a very fine mist of DEF (diesel exhaust fluid - a compound made primarily of water, ammonia and glycerin) into the exhaust stream that catalyzes virtually all the remaining unwanted compounds, resulting in the exhaust exiting the system being essentially clean air with a bit of increased humidity. So clean that diesel engines with this system are now certified clean in all 50 states, including California. You can run all the diesel vehicles you want in an enclosed space without even ventilating it and have no issues at all other than it might feel a bit humid. No foul smell, no CO, no NOX, no danger, no nothing. There are a few exceptions of course, but basically all new diesel engines over 74 hp have to use this system in the US - every diesel powered passenger vehicle, work truck, heavy truck, semi, farm tractor, bulldozer, crane, and even locomotives.

So, to be fair and make it sporting, I'll accept your challenge and instead of a single car, let's use a large garage about the size of a basketball gym. We'll use a bulldozer, 3 semis, a couple of those big treaded farm tractors that bend in the middle and are as big as a house, a harvester, a couple of dump trucks, a cement truck, and as many diesel powered F-350's as we can squeeze in around the other vehicles, let them all run throughout the night, and I'll be glad to sleep in there with them. Tomorrow morning I'll stroll over to your place feeling fine, not even smelling of exhaust fumes, and you can then, over a cup of coffee, explain how clean your little car is after we take into account the lithium batteries and the coal-powered electricity it uses.

Deal?

I stand corrected.

Just sit in your good old fashion standard internal combustion engine car instead.

Cheers!

 

[Bluto]

I will offer that recycling of batteries after degradation reduces the ecological impact as materials are reused, not thrown away. This isn't the case for windmills and solar panels that are a disaster to dispose of.

I appreciate the response.

 

[Bluto]

Nope. It's mentioned twice that it only applies to the very best modern EVs.



Those best performing EVs, not all or even the average, are degrading at 1.0% a year. Those are the ones after 20 years that have hit the 80% threshold and are ready to be replaced. Those are your Teslas and the liquid cooled batteries like the Lucid Air. The average EV is degrading 1.8% now, which IS an improvement over the old 2.3%, but those batteries are going to be the ones that need replaced in 8-14 years based on where you live and how your vehicle is being used.

They also go to explain the factors, like extreme temperatures and charging practices, that can affect the battery life. Bottom line, for the thousandth time, is your average EV battery is not going 20 years. Not unless you're running it past it's suggested lifespan of 80-70% life.

I urge you to look at some other articles and websites about this. Nobody is touting that all modern EV batteries will last 20 years. The most recent stuff is 8-14 years based on your circumstances if you have an average modern EV.

You lose. Good day, sir.

Cool. You’re still smarter than engineers and researchers on this.

From the same article

“For a variety of reasons including reduction in useful driving range, a battery is considered to be at the end of its service life when it reaches 70–80 percent of its original capacity. Doing the math, Geotab’s research shows the best modern EVs shouldn’t reach that point until they’re 20 years old, while the average EV should make it at least 11.1 years.


Why the big discrepancy? There are a number of factors, key among them the exact chemistry used in the battery (different car companies use slightly different chemistries) and how good a given car is at controlling the temperature of the battery (extreme heat and cold are bad for batteries, which is why modern EVs have onboard thermal management systems). Newer EVs tend to have better battery chemistries and temperature control systems which make them last longer, as shown in the drop in average degradation over the past 5 years. It should also be noted Geotab doesn’t break out the age of the vehicles in its study, so the average covers both older EVs with worse degradation and newer EVs with lesser degradation. Early Nissan Leafs, for example, used air-cooled batteries (rather than liquid-cooled) which are known to degrade quickly.”

“What this all means is the brand-new EV you’re likely to consider buying today is almost certainly going to be an SUV, truck, or van. And more importantly, its battery is almost certain to last as long as you own the vehicle. Even those considering buying used can breathe a little easier knowing the battery is likely to last until the vehicle is at least 20 years old before needing to be replaced.”

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last

“So, how long do EV batteries last? Most last between 10 and 20 years; for context, the average car on American roads is 12.5 years old. The battery life can vary slightly or significantly depending on certain factors. Let's take a look at those factors.”

I use a level 2 charger, in a mild climate and never have to charge over 80%. For the millionth time I’m never going to have to replace the battery in either of the ev’s I currently own, which was the premise of your original question.

Nice memes though.

 

[ulukinatme]

Cool. You’re still smarter than engineers and researchers on this.

From the same article

“For a variety of reasons including reduction in useful driving range, a battery is considered to be at the end of its service life when it reaches 70–80 percent of its original capacity. Doing the math, Geotab’s research shows the best modern EVs shouldn’t reach that point until they’re 20 years old, while the average EV should make it at least 11.1 years.


Why the big discrepancy? There are a number of factors, key among them the exact chemistry used in the battery (different car companies use slightly different chemistries) and how good a given car is at controlling the temperature of the battery (extreme heat and cold are bad for batteries, which is why modern EVs have onboard thermal management systems). Newer EVs tend to have better battery chemistries and temperature control systems which make them last longer, as shown in the drop in average degradation over the past 5 years. It should also be noted Geotab doesn’t break out the age of the vehicles in its study, so the average covers both older EVs with worse degradation and newer EVs with lesser degradation. Early Nissan Leafs, for example, used air-cooled batteries (rather than liquid-cooled) which are known to degrade quickly.”

“What this all means is the brand-new EV you’re likely to consider buying today is almost certainly going to be an SUV, truck, or van. And more importantly, its battery is almost certain to last as long as you own the vehicle. Even those considering buying used can breathe a little easier knowing the battery is likely to last until the vehicle is at least 20 years old before needing to be replaced.”

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last

“So, how long do EV batteries last? Most last between 10 and 20 years; for context, the average car on American roads is 12.5 years old. The battery life can vary slightly or significantly depending on certain factors. Let's take a look at those factors.”

I use a level 2 charger, in a mild climate and never have to charge over 80%. For the millionth time I’m never going to have to replace the battery in either of the ev’s I currently own, which was the premise of your original question.

Nice memes though.

Literally the only bolded line that backs up your "20 year" position is that summary line at the end...after they've already established only the best modern EVs are hitting those numbers. They're not going to reiterate those points in the summary when they've been made multiple times in the body. I don't know how else to break that to you.

This entire debate has been debunking the myth that all modern EV batteries are going to go 20 years, which was your reply to the question. I've simply been pointing out that's the upper end of the curve. I never said you were going to change a battery in either of your EVs, especially if you bought them new and they're the top of the line models. I don't know what models you have, you might end up doing a replacement if you keep your vehicle 10-12 years, but I'm guessing you're going to pass that cost off to the next buyer if you're smart. So yeah, happy days for you and a big congrats, sucks to be the next guy for sure.

 

[Giddyup]

Utah choosing brain cells over better teeth:

In a huge development, and coming just weeks after federal health secretary and Fluoride-skeptic Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was sworn into office, the state of Utah has become the first state to ban fluoride in public drinking water.

The landmark move also comes soon after recent major health studies were published which linked the decades-long US fluoridization in public drinking water with lower IQ in children.

 

[NDVirginia19]

Lmfao

 

[Irish#1]

Lmfao

Look at it this way. By trading in his Tesla and purchasing a new car, he’s stimulating the economy. That is of course assuming he’s not getting a free ride from a lobbyist or car dealer.

 

[NDVirginia19]

 

[Bishop2b5]

Germany - fucked up beyond repair since 1933.

 

[Irish#1]

Let's get to the heart of the problem with the environment.

 

[Old Man Mike]

uninformed post.
educated persons realize that production of methane (out of the mouths of cows not their assholes) is a MAJOR percentage of Methane pollution. Methane being a 5-atom molecule is a big outgoing radiation stopper and therefore warms the planet. Since we will refuse to deny ourselves hamburgers et al, the only "compromise" solution is to alter the cow by genetics so that its digestion system produces less CH4, or change the cattle feed in a way that its easier for their digestion. Note that neither of these is "vaccination" showing the profound ignorance (and stupidity) of the poster.

If people actually gave a damm about making technological inventive compromises so that we might keep our luxuries AND our kids' future security, they'd stuff their political prejudices up their asses and actually learn something. Gates is correct in what he's talking about here.

 

[Irish#1]

 

[Bishop2b5]

They've cried wolf and exaggerated so many times about virtually everything. If and when they ever actually tell the truth about a real danger, nobody will pay any attention.

 

[Old Man Mike]

People have DIED because of climate change drying out of water sources. And forcing hostile emigration.
Pacific people have lost their islands because of climate change ocean warming. Plus fishing areas in our own South.
The US military is already rebuilding facilities further inland because of climate change ocean swelling.
The Dutch have to damm-near dedicate their budget to a whole new ocean-blocking project of mammoth size.
etc etc etc

Don't you guys give a damm about anything if it's not exactly in your own damm yard?
Talk about zero empathy.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I might add to the above: Pope Francis' most famous writing (Laudato Si) is PRECISELY on taking the climate crisis seriously as a MORAL DUTY to all humanity and all Creation. So the timing of the post I take as a slap in the face at him just as he dies. Way to go, man. You are a real piece of work.

 

[drayer54]

Spain and Portugal are in the dark right now. Not clear if it is a cyber incident or electric transient. Given their super high renewable portfolio, this will raise questions for sure.

 

[Irish#1]

I care about climate change (we do our share to recycle and minimize). Remember when we called it ecology? There might be more support if things weren’t exaggerated which was the point of my post.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I care about climate change (we do our share to recycle and minimize). Remember when we called it ecology? There might be more support if things weren’t exaggerated which was the point of my post.

Exactly. The nonstop exaggeration about everything for decades has killed credibility when something finally is an actual problem. The average person has heard "Wolf!" so many times that they just stop listening or taking any of it seriously, even when they should.

 

[Bluto]

This is such a bad ass project and the type of work that could provide good paying jobs for a long time if it was made a priority.

 

[Irish#1]

This is such a bad ass project and the type of work that could provide good paying jobs for a long time if it was made a priority.

One thing we've gotten better at, is analyzing the impact of projects before going forward. Back then it was basically let's build a damn for the water supply and to generate electricity. My son is a Landscape Architect and he does a lot of environmental studies for water projects. He's done a number of them when highways require rerouting of waterways.

 

[ab2cmiller]

 

[BuaConstrictor]

What Caused the European Power Outage?

There’s still no official explanation for the blackout in Spain, Portugal, and parts of southern France—but experts point to the makeup of the Iberian peninsula’s power grid.

www.wired.com

 

[Bluto]

What Caused the European Power Outage?

There’s still no official explanation for the blackout in Spain, Portugal, and parts of southern France—but experts point to the makeup of the Iberian peninsula’s power grid.

www.wired.com

A shitty grid caused a blackout. Shocker.

I remember when half the north east suffered a massive blackout that affected all of NY City and there was narry a solar panel in site.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

I remember when half the north east suffered a massive blackout that affected all of NY City and there was narry a solar panel in site.

Remember when Texas' piece of shit grid and shitty infrastructure failed?

 

[Irish#1]

Some positive news

Antarctica gains ice for first time in decades, reversing trend of mass loss, study finds | LiveNOW from FOX

A new study finds Antarctica gained mass for the first time in decades, reversing previous loss trends and briefly offsetting global sea level rise.

www.livenowfox.com

 

[drayer54]

Anyone who works in the grid space saw this coming a mile away. It’s a policy blackout

 

[drayer54]

 

[NDVirginia19]

I'll take the wins where I can see them

 

[Blazers46]

I'll take the wins where I can see them

Hate it hate it hate it… luckily both of my cars I can shut it off.

 

[Irish#1]

Hate it hate it hate it… luckily both of my cars I can shut it off.

First time I rode in a car equipped with that tech, we stopped at a red light and I was like WTF? Did your truck just die? lol