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NDBoiler

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Amazon pulled out of the deal to put their HQ in NYC. Where now?

I find it ironic that some of those individuals who were against it cited the cost to the city via subsidies offered as a reason, yet they don’t bat an eye pushing some of the proposals on a national level that would cost trillions to implement.
 

GowerND11

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Wiz is a commie, I knew it.

Interesting topic for a sure. Some food for thought -

What is a fair basic income? Who is the arbiter of what is fair?

What happens in an economic downturn and tax revenue decreases significantly (the presumed source of the basic income)?

What is the incentive for those just receiving the basic income to try and improve their lot in life? Does this not just encourage idleness for a large portion of the population (thus a whole other set of problems)?

All valid questions, but I'll speak of the bold. Do we not already have this happening? I think one of the benefits of universal basic income is the potential savings it would have for the federal government. There would be one government program now, eliminating umpteen others. No more need to issue food stamps, you have your universal income to use. No more housing programs, use your universal income.
 

Legacy

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30 minutes north of Boston, just over the New Hampshire line.

Hearing two hours southwest of Boston, wiz.

I suppose that Amazon pulling out of NYC impacting its real estate market really has nothing to do with the Bezos/National Enquirer debacle.

Real Estate Brokers Despair Over Amazon's Abrupt NYC Reversal (Bloomberg)

As far as real estate prices driven upwards by multinational corps, the tax bill's benefits from MNCs capital investments could be one factor. Another may be a repatriation of overseas money by the MNCs which they have to invest somewhere other than stock buybacks or dividends.

Interesting update article on that:

Repatriated profits total $465 billion after Trump tax cuts - leaving $2.5 trillion overseas
(Market Watch Sept 19, 2018)
 
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Legacy

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Amazon paid no federal taxes on $11.2 billion in profits last year (Wash Post)

UC2UWT4MENA4DLABR2MZUK4X2I.png


With Amazon Out of New York, Some Lawmakers Seek Multistate Ban on Corporate Tax Breaks (Governing)

--- Other articles on tax breaks to Amazon and other Corps linked in article
 
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Circa

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This is Great news.
I just read recently that we hit a 22 Trillion dollar deficit. I'm not in the mood to argue semantics on all of the details, as to why I feel this Is a good thing for us. I just figured I'd agree.
 

NorthDakota

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This is Great news.
I just read recently that we hit a 22 Trillion dollar deficit. I'm not in the mood to argue semantics on all of the details, as to why I feel this Is a good thing for us. I just figured I'd agree.

I am rooting for Amazon. They are basically the postal service without the bigass pension program.

Honestly, we ought to just contract it out to them.
 

drayer54

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The gimmedat & unwilling to work generation is making its mark.

I personally think the AOC hysteria is a red herring. However, 2020 Dems are seemingly ok with government takeovers of entire industry, universal basic income, insane tax rates, and very socialist policies. It's an interesting move for the Dems who should be able to cakewalk into office but will struggle if they try selling a socialist economy during a booming economy.
 

Irish#1

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I am rooting for Amazon. They are basically the postal service without the bigass pension program.

Honestly, we ought to just contract it out to them.

I'm not. From a consumer perspective they are great for now, but think long term. I've been studying them as we (company I work for) decide whether to work with them or not. Amazon has a couple of models they use to do business with business. The first is the Marketplace most people are familiar with. This is where you sell your product direct to Amazon consumers and you pasy Amazon a fee. The second is becoming a direct supplier to Amazon. This is where their focus is now. As a direct supplier to Amazon, they can drop you anytime they want without repercussion. For instance, they require you to be able to supply them product within a certain number of days. to do this you will need to maintain a certain level of inventory. Now Amazon finds another supplier that will supply the same product for $0.10 less per item. Amazon just stops buying from you and they don't have to give you notice or reason as to why. You're stuck with inventory you will probably take a loss on.

Besides retail, they are getting into a lot of different industries (industrial MRO & PPE, groceries, IT services) and I'm sure they are looking at a number of other areas. They attempt to drive down their costs and prices to get you to business with them and to drive others out of the market. Good for consumer until Amazon is one of the few players left. Then you'll see prices go up.

I don't think Amazon can sustain themselves in the long run if they continue to be the dominant players in multiple markets and industries. The constant turnover of employees will finally erode their workforce where they will be forced to raise pay. Amazon pushed FedEx and UPS to give them better shipping rates. Both refused, so Amazon is looking to start their own delivery service. Who's going to pay for that? Amazon has already increased pay to keep employees, but they cut out some benefits to offset the cost. This will also catch up to them.
 
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BleedBlueGold

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The gimmedat & unwilling to work generation is making its mark.

I personally think the AOC hysteria is a red herring. However, 2020 Dems are seemingly ok with government takeovers of entire industry, universal basic income, insane tax rates, and very socialist policies. It's an interesting move for the Dems who should be able to cakewalk into office but will struggle if they try selling a socialist economy during a booming economy.

In regards to UBI:

I've been hearing a lot about the automation of our top jobs and the burden it will put on our society in a lot of different ways. Lets say, hypothetically, that the models around retail and truck drivers is correct and in less than 15 years, automation will have eliminated those jobs. What do we do with the estimated 7 million people that just lost their job? Yes, some will transition into new careers. But that's a lot of jobs that need to be created in order to place these people in. It's like the coal industry only approx 10 times worse. This won't be like the Industrial Revolution where manufacturing will prop up the jobless people. The market usually adapts and creates a need somewhere, but that many uneducated people? I'm not sure this time.

I'm not saying I agree with UBI, or Dem candidate Andrew Yang's "Freedom Dividend," but I am worried about these people and the rippling effect it could have on our society and economy.
 

Wild Bill

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In regards to UBI:

I've been hearing a lot about the automation of our top jobs and the burden it will put on our society in a lot of different ways. Lets say, hypothetically, that the models around retail and truck drivers is correct and in less than 15 years, automation will have eliminated those jobs. What do we do with the estimated 7 million people that just lost their job? Yes, some will transition into new careers. But that's a lot of jobs that need to be created in order to place these people in. It's like the coal industry only approx 10 times worse. This won't be like the Industrial Revolution where manufacturing will prop up the jobless people. The market usually adapts and creates a need somewhere, but that many uneducated people? I'm not sure this time.

I'm not saying I agree with UBI, or Dem candidate Andrew Yang's "Freedom Dividend," but I am worried about these people and the rippling effect it could have on our society and economy.

The decrease in jobs will decrease the payroll taxes collected so it'll create yet another budget issue for the feds. If automation eliminates as many jobs as so called experts predict, maybe the feds should tax the robots being used to replace humans.

I have a hard time believing automation is going to replace drivers on a mass scale within fifteen years. Citizens aren't going to sit back and let corporations replace millions of workers with robots so they can reduce labor expenses and increase net profits on the roads citizens paid to build and maintain. Our government will capitulate to the interests of corporations but there's only so much a population is willing to take. Eliminating millions of jobs over a short period of time will lead to severe social unrest. Combined with the tactics the Teamsters have historically been willing to use, it'll be a struggle to implement mass automation with respect to drivers.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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The decrease in jobs will decrease the payroll taxes collected so it'll create yet another budget issue for the feds.

The knock-on effects will be worse than that. Lots of corporations are pushing automation to decrease labor costs because that's the easiest way to goose their short-term efficiency/ stock prices. But most of these companies rely on American consumption to drive long-term growth, which automation undermines.

It's the economic equivalent of contracepting to maximize short-term comfort/ consumption, and ending with a demographic crisis as TFR plunges far beneath replacement rates. We're eating our own seed corn left and right.
 

Legacy

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The knock-on effects will be worse than that. Lots of corporations are pushing automation to decrease labor costs because that's the easiest way to goose their short-term efficiency/ stock prices. But most of these companies rely on American consumption to drive long-term growth, which automation undermines.

Could you explain how automation undermines long-term growth of companies that rely on American consumption?

It's the economic equivalent of contracepting to maximize short-term comfort/ consumption, and ending with a demographic crisis as TFR plunges far beneath replacement rates. We're eating our own seed corn left and right.
A couple of recent articles:
US population growth hits 80-year low, capping off a year of demographic stagnation (Brookings)

Excerpt:
More reliance on immigration as a contributor to growth

These downward growth trends initially reflected declines in immigration as well as lower natural increase (the excess of births over deaths) because the economy was down. But over the past few years, as immigration gained slight momentum, reduced natural increase was more responsible for the overall decline in population growth—as it dropped from 1.6 million in 2000-2001 to just above 1 million in 2017-2018. There were fewer births than in recent decades and more deaths than in earlier years (download Table A).

12.21.18_Metro_Frey_Figure-2.png


The decline in births may have been accentuated by young adult millennials, who, still bearing the brunt of the Great Recession, may be postponing births. However, the long-term trajectory should yield fewer rather than more births as the population ages, with proportionately fewer women in childbearing ages. The rise in deaths is more directly related to the nation’s aging population. Census Bureau projections show their rise to be the major cause of reductions in the nation’s natural increase over time.

This leaves immigration as an ever-more-important contributor to national population growth. In 2001-2002, natural increase exceeded immigration by 50 percent and that was when immigration was slightly higher than this year (1.05 million vs 0.99 million). Because of the recent decline in natural increase, immigration now contributes nearly as much to population growth, and is projected to be the primary contributor to national population growth after 2030 as natural increase continues to decline. Thus immigration—its size and its attributes—will be an important contributor to the nation’s future population that is growing slowly and aging quickly.

Not all states are equally affected by population changes driven by job growth.

Texas population climbed 379,000 in past year — that's like adding a city the size of Cleveland (Austin Biz-Journal)

1545180538701.jpg


Texas might be a good study where the population has increased over most every other state, where technology centers use more AI, where average age of the population may be decreasing, as a state with a high number of immigrants and where pro-life forces and legislation should produce more children, especially with Catholic immigrant families.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Could you explain how automation undermines long-term growth of companies that rely on American consumption?

Sure. Things like off-shoring, automation, etc. drive down the cost of labor in a number of ways, but primarily by increasing the share of the workforce with little to no legal protections (sweat shops, robots) and decreasing the share of the workforce that expects a living wage (Americans). This process, which has been going on for decades, has left our lower and middle classes in a precarious situation--they have much lower employment security than their parents did, worse benefits across the board, and the prospects for their children look even more grim than their own. The research on American wage stagnation is uncontested on these points.

An American working class that is poorer, sicker and less secure is one is that less able to spend on the goods and services that have driven our economic growth since the Industrial Revolution. So these companies are prioritizing short-term goals/ quarterly growth targets at the expense of long-term viability. But that's just the modus operandi of liberalism (the political philosophy, not Democrats specifically).

Texas might be a good study where the population has increased over most every other state, where technology centers use more AI, where average age of the population may be decreasing, as a state with a high number of immigrants and where pro-life forces and legislation should produce more children, especially with Catholic immigrant families.

I'm not optimistic. Texas is one of the few states with good medium-term growth prospects, due in part to Hispanic immigration but also to domestic migration of citizens and businesses from other states. From a national perspective, a lot of that growth is illusory, since Texas is growing at the expense of other states. And if you look at the children of typical 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanic immigrants, their fertility looks nearly identical to the national average. Any family we welcome will become fully American within a generation or two, so we can't rely on immigrants to fix what ails us.
 

Circa

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Why were the banks closed today? They should have no affiliation with our government, Presidents, or anything us taxpayers have to give money to in order to survive. Banks are FDIC insured and that's about the extent of our interest. They prey on the weak in order to help the rich and make the rich... Trump Presidents by loaning money and giving bankruptcy laws to people that have money in other people's names...

Anyway. Banks should be open 24-7 like our local gas stations wal-mart and wal-greens. They have the same benefits and we lose the interest allowed.
 

Legacy

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Sure. Things like off-shoring, automation, etc. drive down the cost of labor in a number of ways, but primarily by increasing the share of the workforce with little to no legal protections (sweat shops, robots) and decreasing the share of the workforce that expects a living wage (Americans). This process, which has been going on for decades, has left our lower and middle classes in a precarious situation--they have much lower employment security than their parents did, worse benefits across the board, and the prospects for their children look even more grim than their own. The research on American wage stagnation is uncontested on these points.

Thank you for the link, however, so many of us are familiar (and have discussed) many of those factors that have effectively stagnated wage growth while seeing their costs soar and debt accumulate. Many more factors for this occurred to me before automation. Certainly the result of decreased purchasing power impacts service businesses in a consumer society.

An American working class that is poorer, sicker and less secure is one is that less able to spend on the goods and services that have driven our economic growth since the Industrial Revolution. So these companies are prioritizing short-term goals/ quarterly growth targets at the expense of long-term viability. But that's just the modus operandi of liberalism (the political philosophy, not Democrats specifically).

I would think that our economic growth was first driven by expanding westward with the demands for companies that could supply materials, by immigration and by innovation while the workforces adapted to industrial changes. Agree on the failure of liberalism.

I'm not optimistic. Texas is one of the few states with good medium-term growth prospects, due in part to Hispanic immigration but also to domestic migration of citizens and businesses from other states. From a national perspective, a lot of that growth is illusory, since Texas is growing at the expense of other states. And if you look at the children of typical 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanic immigrants, their fertility looks nearly identical to the national average. Any family we welcome will become fully American within a generation or two, so we can't rely on immigrants to fix what ails us.

As far as in-migration v immigration, Texas' economic growth across multiple industries and with multi-national companies investing there drives their population growth and attracts a workforce with the necessary tools. First generation Americans may be in the service industries but succeeding generations may drive those industries with higher education. West Virginia with a reliance on a couple of stagnant industries may continue to see its residents leave. From a dynamic perspective, the job creation related to the Internet, for example, should sustain states like Texas from highly-skilled jobs to lower-skill jobs servicing them. I just think Texas for those reasons and those factors that affect job creation are worth studying, especially their replacement level fertility.

I'd phrase it this way - assuming increasing economic success and freedom especially in their high-growth industries in their metropolitan areas, will a probably younger and more educated population in a state with a high rate people practicing their religions, lower abortion rates and immigrants with higher birth rates see an increase in fertility rates?

Employment by industry, 1910 and 2015 (U.S. Bureau of Statistics)
 
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NorthDakota

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Why were the banks closed today? They should have no affiliation with our government, Presidents, or anything us taxpayers have to give money to in order to survive. Banks are FDIC insured and that's about the extent of our interest. They prey on the weak in order to help the rich and make the rich... Trump Presidents by loaning money and giving bankruptcy laws to people that have money in other people's names...

Anyway. Banks should be open 24-7 like our local gas stations wal-mart and wal-greens. They have the same benefits and we lose the interest allowed.


I'm guessing banks are often closed due to the Federal Reserve system being shut down.
 

GowerND11

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I'm guessing banks are often closed due to the Federal Reserve system being shut down.

Also, if banks were open 24/7, goodbye to free checking and savings accounts...

And who the hell is going into a bank at 3:00 AM?!
 

Some Irish Bloke

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I'm guessing banks are often closed due to the Federal Reserve system being shut down.

As a banker, this is the reason why we are closed. We can't process wires for our customers with the Feds closed, so the bank just shuts down.

You can leave the branches open to process withdraws/deposits, but the retail side of the bank is by far the least profitable, so why not just close it all and save the coin.
 

GATTACA!

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The decrease in jobs will decrease the payroll taxes collected so it'll create yet another budget issue for the feds. If automation eliminates as many jobs as so called experts predict, maybe the feds should tax the robots being used to replace humans.

I have a hard time believing automation is going to replace drivers on a mass scale within fifteen years. Citizens aren't going to sit back and let corporations replace millions of workers with robots so they can reduce labor expenses and increase net profits on the roads citizens paid to build and maintain. Our government will capitulate to the interests of corporations but there's only so much a population is willing to take. Eliminating millions of jobs over a short period of time will lead to severe social unrest. Combined with the tactics the Teamsters have historically been willing to use, it'll be a struggle to implement mass automation with respect to drivers.

There's zero chance all of the major corporations allow public outcry to stop the automation of trucking. Once they get a glimpse at how vastly superior AI trucking is over hiring real truckers its already over. It's not even a contest, automation will be better in every conceivable way.

Obviously not having to pay wages is the big part everyone thinks of, but beyond that there are a million other reasons. AI drivers will be more fuel efficient for a myriad of reasons. They will be way cheaper to insure due to them getting in far fewer crashes. They can run 24/7 365 days a year unlike truckers who max out at 14 hours a day. AI drivers never take sick days, they never quit, they don't take holidays off. They will be easier on the trucks themselves, being able to immediately diagnose exactly what is wrong with the mechanics of the vehicle and either stop or adjust their driving to prevent further damage a human driver wouldn't even be aware of yet. And on and on.

The switch to AI drivers is coming sooner than people expect.
 

Irish#1

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Tomorrow they're running a convey for a couple of laps on 465. I guess they've done this in a couple of other cities already.

Truckers are protesting the new regulation that requires auto logging of a drivers time and miles. They're saying it will make it unsafe for them, but the real reason they're mad is it will keep them from driving longer than they should and falsifying their log books.
 

Wild Bill

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There's zero chance all of the major corporations allow public outcry to stop the automation of trucking. Once they get a glimpse at how vastly superior AI trucking is over hiring real truckers its already over. It's not even a contest, automation will be better in every conceivable way.

Obviously not having to pay wages is the big part everyone thinks of, but beyond that there are a million other reasons. AI drivers will be more fuel efficient for a myriad of reasons. They will be way cheaper to insure due to them getting in far fewer crashes. They can run 24/7 365 days a year unlike truckers who max out at 14 hours a day. AI drivers never take sick days, they never quit, they don't take holidays off. They will be easier on the trucks themselves, being able to immediately diagnose exactly what is wrong with the mechanics of the vehicle and either stop or adjust their driving to prevent further damage a human driver wouldn't even be aware of yet. And on and on.

The switch to AI drivers is coming sooner than people expect.

Sure but none of that answers how it's implemented on a mass scale without triggering social unrest. How do you protect your assets on the open road when millions of workers are unemployed and foaming at the mouth? The working class is only going to be pushed so far. The yellow vest movement will feel like a kiss on the lips compared to what Americans could/would do if millions were threatened with being permanently replaced.
 

Irish#1

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There's zero chance all of the major corporations allow public outcry to stop the automation of trucking. Once they get a glimpse at how vastly superior AI trucking is over hiring real truckers its already over. It's not even a contest, automation will be better in every conceivable way.

Obviously not having to pay wages is the big part everyone thinks of, but beyond that there are a million other reasons. AI drivers will be more fuel efficient for a myriad of reasons. They will be way cheaper to insure due to them getting in far fewer crashes. They can run 24/7 365 days a year unlike truckers who max out at 14 hours a day. AI drivers never take sick days, they never quit, they don't take holidays off. They will be easier on the trucks themselves, being able to immediately diagnose exactly what is wrong with the mechanics of the vehicle and either stop or adjust their driving to prevent further damage a human driver wouldn't even be aware of yet. And on and on.

The switch to AI drivers is coming sooner than people expect.

There's a lot of perfecting left to be done as evidenced by Uber and Google driverless cars having wrecks. The government and states will prevent this from happening until it has been proven they are fool proof. I would imagine that even then, there will be a need for a driver to be on board.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Jacob Bacharach just published an article on why American infrastructure is so expensive:

American infrastructure is this costly because of immense, endemic, universal public-private corruption—systems of both direct and financialized graft at every stage of infrastructure development, from the planning to the ribbon-cutting to the use of deferred maintenance to ransack public transportation budgets for cash, year after year, after which the responsible authorities claim that fixing the century-old signals is just too damn pricey. This system of legal fraud begins with the bevies of project consultants, continues through ludicrous private contractor and labor costs, and continues when, years later, high-paid administrative fixers and new armies of consultants and contractors arrive to fix what broke because it was never maintained. It is a system of tolerated kleptocracy that may be the only thing that America still does better than anyone else in the world. It is baked into every assumption about building for the public benefit.
 

Domina Nostra

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Jacob Bacharach just published an article on why American infrastructure is so expensive:

Someday, I hope we reach a level of efficiency where a single Quadrillionaire in Singapore with a single super-computer owns and operates everything through a network of computers and robots, and the rest of us--having been made obsolete--survive off of guaranteed income checks.
 

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Sure but none of that answers how it's implemented on a mass scale without triggering social unrest. How do you protect your assets on the open road when millions of workers are unemployed and foaming at the mouth? The working class is only going to be pushed so far. The yellow vest movement will feel like a kiss on the lips compared to what Americans could/would do if millions were threatened with being permanently replaced.

7 million truckers vs every single company that relies on long haul trucking, that have billions of dollars to gain by its implementation? I know who I'd put my money on.

Besides they won't be doing it all at once. There won't be a national fire your truckers day. It will start slow with giant companies adding one or two AI trucks to their fleet. Slowly as they see how superior their ROI is on those, they will phase out the traditional drivers. The ball will be rolling before anyone knows what's happening and it will be too late.

There's a lot of perfecting left to be done as evidenced by Uber and Google driverless cars having wrecks. The government and states will prevent this from happening until it has been proven they are fool proof. I would imagine that even then, there will be a need for a driver to be on board.

There's no such thing as fool proof in this case. The trucks will be sharing the road with millions of fools every day. There's far too many variables for it to ever be perfect. There will be crashes and people will die. All the trucks have to do is be better than their human counterpart, which I believe they will be quickly.

As of July last year Tesla alone had amassed over 1.2 billion miles of autopilot data.

That number is only going to continue to rise. With every mile they put on their proverbial treds the AI gets better and better.
 

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7 million truckers vs every single company that relies on long haul trucking, that have billions of dollars to gain by its implementation? I know who I'd put my money on.

Besides they won't be doing it all at once. There won't be a national fire your truckers day. It will start slow with giant companies adding one or two AI trucks to their fleet. Slowly as they see how superior their ROI is on those, they will phase out the traditional drivers. The ball will be rolling before anyone knows what's happening and it will be too late.



There's no such thing as fool proof in this case. The trucks will be sharing the road with millions of fools every day. There's far too many variables for it to ever be perfect. There will be crashes and people will die. All the trucks have to do is be better than their human counterpart, which I believe they will be quickly.

As of July last year Tesla alone had amassed over 1.2 billion miles of autopilot data.

That number is only going to continue to rise. With every mile they put on their proverbial treds the AI gets better and better.

Yep, I agree with everything you said.
 
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