Economics

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
Guys, views on this? Seems milton is the only one who a hearltess bastard, or is it that there is more to the minumum wage law?


Economists: Raising Minimum Wage Is Not the Answer

I've been saying this since the thread started.

"The economists' letter noted that the Congressional Budget Office estimated that* raising the federal minimum wage to $10.10 per hour would cost the economy 500,000 jobs by 2016 — many of them unskilled positions held by people the law ironically would be intended to help."

The only "economist" who actually thinks raising the minimum wage would be a good thing is that jackass Krugman.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
We could do this :

There is no conflation in what I say.

Many books including Paddy's Lament, and other documents show that grains and cattle to feed over 12,000,000 a year were being shipped out of Ireland at the time of the famine, under armed guard. (80 British Regiments - regulars)

The foodstuffs were produced by the absentee Irish landlords who were mostly English or Scottish. They were then shipped out under armed guard so the starving underclasses didn't intercept them.

These were used to feed other British colonies and outposts like Gibraltar, that couldn't produce food for themselves.

The real reason none of this food was used to save the Irish underclass farmers is because the English didn't want to "disrupt" the free market balance of trade that was working well for the English merchants.

The reason given by the English was because they didn't want to "build a charity dependent class." And false rumors that the Irish didn't want charity were circulated. These were lies perpetrated by those engineering the genocide. (It was opportunistic genocide.) Any one that believed or still believes these lies is stupid, ignorant, or sociopathic.

The reason that so many Irish died is because the actual Irish who remained true to their customs and traditions, were pushed down to the role of a sharecropper. Farms were divided into 20 acre plots, a farmer was given one acre to provide for his family for the year, and the other 19 were the landlord's harvest. Potatoes were one of the few crops that had the nutrient value to sustain a family, and their pig, or two, for the year. It could be stored through the winter with relatively little spoilage.

When the crop failed no one did anything to help these people. When the farmers could no longer work the fields the landlords sent well nourished men around with sledges to knock the farmers houses down regardless of whether someone was living inside or not.

The starvation, An Gota Mor began exclusively with the underclass. And it hit hard. These people were the backbone of the Irish Labor force, and desperately wanted to continue working. However, due to hunger, actual acute starvation, they could not work. The British argued against providing them any but minimal help. A thousand things could have been done to save the population, but none were.

Of roughly 8 million, over 2 died and another 2.5 left their home on unsafe or unsanitary boats. Of that 2.5 over 25 percent, or 625 thousand died en route. For its time it was as immoral as the holocaust, and just as lethal. There is no doubt that the British used this natural phenomena to starve population and depopulate the island.

The idea that one should withhold charity because of a moral imperative to allow a person to do for themselves, (or die trying), is false logic of a seriously monstrous being that is of itself entirely immoral. Every time. When someone is dying of starvation, you feed them; when someone is dying of thirst, you give them drink; when someone has little or no opportunity, you raise them up.

Now I know that some of you are of limited enough capacity that you think we are still in a place and time that one person has to compete against another, for a better job, or food. That is no longer true with technology. So perpetrating that old Calvinistic (bull shit) dogma about the sanctity of work, and that those that work hard enough to succeed will have plenty, and the rest will get their just deserts, is no longer just stupid. It is today, in and of itself immoral. Sorry, no conflation, just facts.

brilliant post.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

Guest
Guys, views on this? Seems milton is the only one who a hearltess bastard, or is it that there is more to the minumum wage law?


Economists: Raising Minimum Wage Is Not the Answer

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ct8CGJy9eF8?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I am not advocating everything Robert says. But his arguments against the anti-minimum wage advocates are not only correct, but is the basis for what is wrong with our economy, and the social inequality that is getting worse in America, not better.
 

Ndaccountant

Old Hoss
Messages
8,370
Reaction score
5,771
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ct8CGJy9eF8?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I am not advocating everything Robert says. But his arguments against the anti-minimum wage advocates are not only correct, but is the basis for what is wrong with our economy, and the social inequality that is getting worse in America, not better.

The Five Biggest Myths About Income Inequality - Forbes
 

tussin

Well-known member
Messages
4,153
Reaction score
1,982
Thank you, this is exactly what I have been talking about. Exactly. The first way you know is the oversimplification and generalization required to make any of the points. The appeal to pseudo-science comes second.

The second "myth" is important IMO and I think the degradation and fall of the American family has more to do with income inequality than anything else. In just six years, half of every kindergarten class in this country is going to be the children of single moms. It's not that hard to figure this stuff out.
 

Ndaccountant

Old Hoss
Messages
8,370
Reaction score
5,771
The second "myth" is important IMO and I think the degradation and fall of the American family has more to do with income inequality than anything else. In just six years, half of every kindergarten class in this country is going to be the children of single moms. It's not that hard to figure this stuff out.

You are spot on.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

Guest

I am sorry. I mean no disrespect to you. But look at this.

Myth No. 2: People at the bottom of the income ladder are there through no fault of their own.

In a study for the National Center for Policy Analysis, David Henderson found that there is a big difference between families in the top 20 percent and bottom 20 percent of the income distribution: Families at the top tend to be married and both partners work. Families at the bottom often have only one adult in the household and that person either works part-time or not at all:
•In 2006, a whopping 81.4 percent of families in the top income quintile had two or more people working, and only 2.2 percent had no one working.
•By contrast, only 12.6 percent of families in the bottom quintile had two or more people working; 39.2 percent had no one working.

The average number of earners per family for the top group was 2.16, almost three times the 0.76 average for the bottom.

Henderson concludes:



““…average families in the top group have many more weeks of work than those in the bottom and, in the late 1970s, the 12-to-1 total income ratio shrunk to only 2-to-1 per week of work, according to one analysis.”

Having children without a husband tends to make you poor. Not working makes you even poorer. And there is nothing new about that. These are age old truths. They were true 50 years ago, a hundred years ago and even 1,000 year ago. Lifestyle choices have always mattered.

This point is engineered from a formed position where the facts are brought in to support that advanced conclusion. In other words, this person had an opinion and went out and found the facts that made it so.

I understand that people with mental health issues, or lower education levels will probably make less money. And I am not saying that they should be rewarded for this.

But you don't hear me going off on the divorce industry. For example, I could say that one of the clearest eroding forces of wealth among families in America is the divorce industry. Made up of Judges, Magistrates, attorneys, therapists, children protective workers, and countless bureaucratic workers, like those that collect and distribute child support, this industry hooks less than healthy, or poorly married couples and ruins their families. All the money the countless millions in this industry make is taken from the pockets of these poor families, particularly from the mouths of the poor children.

I could find "facts" to support this conclusion. But my argument would still be laced with truisms and generalizations.

But I don't say that. It is a fact that divorce breeds poverty. And it especially breeds poverty among those that have never been poor before; the white formerly middle-class population.

And that bolded 2.2 percent. That is where the wealth is; and it fact it is so much wealth that it skews the statistics awry. This is the whole point of everyone's contention.

I believe you could find habits that pushed "families" ahead as far as income in the short term. But those habits may or may not be a good long term strategy. Once again, going out to make lots of money may not be the healthiest, or most moral long term strategy.

And people that don't have those habits don't necessarily work less hard.

My idea is that we work to raise up the health of those people that need it so they too can be "more efficient," whatever that may be.

But I don't see where discussing "fault" from a Calvinistic understanding of the work ethic has anything to do with what is right to do, or what is the best overall promotion of the society.
 
Last edited:

Ndaccountant

Old Hoss
Messages
8,370
Reaction score
5,771
I am sorry. I mean no disrespect to you. But look at this.



This point is engineered from a formed position where the facts are brought in to support that advanced conclusion. In other words, this person had an opinion and went out and found the facts that made it so.

I understand that people with mental health issues, or lower education levels will probably make less money. And I am not saying that they should be rewarded for this.

But you don't hear me going off on the divorce industry. For example, I could say that one of the clearest eroding forces of wealth among families in America is the divorce industry. Made up of Judges, Magistrates, attorneys, therapists, children protective workers, and countless bureaucratic workers, like those that collect and distribute child support, this industry hooks less than healthy, or poorly married couples and ruins their families. All the money the countless millions in this industry make is taken from the pockets of these poor families, particularly from the mouths of the poor children.

I could find "facts" to support this conclusion. But my argument would still be laced with truisms and generalizations.

But I don't say that. It is a fact that divorce breeds poverty. And it especially breeds poverty among those that have never been poor before; the white formerly middle-class population.

And that bolded 2.2 percent. That is where the wealth is; and it fact it is so much wealth that it skews the statistics awry. This is the whole point of everyone's contention.

I believe you could find habits that pushed "families" ahead as far as income in the short term. But those habits may or may not be a good long term strategy. Once again, going out to make lots of money may not be the healthiest, or most moral long term strategy.

And people that don't have those habits don't necessarily work less hard.

My idea is that we work to raise up the health of those people that need it so they too can be "more efficient," whatever that may be.

But I don't see where discussing "fault" from a Calvinistic understanding of the work ethic has anything to do with what is right to do, or what is the best overall promotion of the society.

I am not placing the blame on others as that doesn't accomplish much. However, I do think it is important to understand how people end up in the situations that they do. Inequality due to family structure is well documented. But at what point do we look at it and say we have an inequality in values that must first be addressed?
 

tussin

Well-known member
Messages
4,153
Reaction score
1,982
I am not placing the blame on others as that doesn't accomplish much. However, I do think it is important to understand how people end up in the situations that they do. Inequality due to family structure is well documented. But at what point do we look at it and say we have an inequality in values that must first be addressed?

Ding ding ding.

I think most wealth redistribution policies are putting lipstick on a pig. True improvement will only come when there is fundamental changes in the American family and culture.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
I think most wealth redistribution policies are putting lipstick on a pig. True improvement will only come when there is fundamental changes in the American family and culture.

So true. If you graduate high school, work, and get married before you have children, your chance of experiencing poverty is only 2% and you're 77% likely to be above the median income. It's a shame that such seemingly basic building blocks of a stable life are the exceptions rather than the rule.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

Guest
Ding ding ding.

I think most wealth redistribution policies are putting lipstick on a pig. True improvement will only come when there is fundamental changes in the American family and culture.

I agree with both of you guys. Except, I do not believe in "wealth redistribution/"

And there has been a huge fundamental change in the American family, which has driven incredible cultural change :

The average American male born in the late 19th century had a 55 year (roughly) life expectancy. Chances of 60 were not good. In that same period, the late 19th century the average marriage lasted what? About 7 years, due to death of one member or another?

That is an incredible change!

For me I look at the Scandanavian countries, all which have a much higher single parent rate than the US. (Like ten or twenty points higher maybe?) And they don't have this poverty issue in single parent households.
 

Wild Bill

Well-known member
Messages
5,518
Reaction score
3,261
I am sorry. I mean no disrespect to you. But look at this.



This point is engineered from a formed position where the facts are brought in to support that advanced conclusion. In other words, this person had an opinion and went out and found the facts that made it so.

I understand that people with mental health issues, or lower education levels will probably make less money. And I am not saying that they should be rewarded for this.

But you don't hear me going off on the divorce industry. For example, I could say that one of the clearest eroding forces of wealth among families in America is the divorce industry. Made up of Judges, Magistrates, attorneys, therapists, children protective workers, and countless bureaucratic workers, like those that collect and distribute child support, this industry hooks less than healthy, or poorly married couples and ruins their families. All the money the countless millions in this industry make is taken from the pockets of these poor families, particularly from the mouths of the poor children.

I could find "facts" to support this conclusion. But my argument would still be laced with truisms and generalizations.

But I don't say that. It is a fact that divorce breeds poverty. And it especially breeds poverty among those that have never been poor before; the white formerly middle-class population.

And that bolded 2.2 percent. That is where the wealth is; and it fact it is so much wealth that it skews the statistics awry. This is the whole point of everyone's contention.

I believe you could find habits that pushed "families" ahead as far as income in the short term. But those habits may or may not be a good long term strategy. Once again, going out to make lots of money may not be the healthiest, or most moral long term strategy.

And people that don't have those habits don't necessarily work less hard.

My idea is that we work to raise up the health of those people that need it so they too can be "more efficient," whatever that may be.

But I don't see where discussing "fault" from a Calvinistic understanding of the work ethic has anything to do with what is right to do, or what is the best overall promotion of the society.

The divorce system erodes wealth, assuming wealth exists. My buddy likes to bitch about the court system "eroding his wealth" too. He rarely, if ever, tells anyone that his wife divorced him b/c she caught him plowing his secretary. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. Long story short, she's a single mother who gets a nice check each month and I don't feel sorry for him.

Regardless, that's not the issue, the issue is poor single parents (generally mothers). If they are using the court system, it's not to get a divorce, b/c they rarely ever get married - they just get knocked up. They are using the courts to enter/enforce a support order. Good luck collecting from a guy that has never seen a W2. Lesson for the ladies out there: Don't screw dudes that don't work.

By the way, I can assure you that divorce attorneys aren't scrambling to represent "poor" people.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
For me I look at the Scandanavian countries, all which have a much higher single parent rate than the US. (Like ten or twenty points higher maybe?) And they don't have this poverty issue in single parent households.

You have cause and effect backwards. You're assuming that these countries have tons of single parents independently and that government programs prevent them from going into poverty, but the opposite is true. Government programs cause families to fall apart because all of a sudden you don't need a father around.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
I am not placing the blame on others as that doesn't accomplish much. However, I do think it is important to understand how people end up in the situations that they do. Inequality due to family structure is well documented. But at what point do we look at it and say we have an inequality in values that must first be addressed?

I agree with this completely, but we probably diverge on where those values come from. The NYT's Ross Douthat has been writing about this recently; how the American bourgeoisie, despite all the social upheavals of the last 50 years, is continuing to follow the same socially-conservative "script" that has maintained stability for hundreds of years, but that our culture has essentially left the lower classes "scriptless":

By which I mean … is it just a coincidence that this self-interested elite holds the nearly-uniformly liberal views on social issues that it does? Is it just random that the one idea binding the post-1970s upper class together — uniting Wall Street’s Randians and Harvard’s academic socialists, a left-leaning media and a right-leaning corporate sector, the libertarians of Silicon Valley and the liberal rich of the Upper West Side — is a hostility to any kind of social conservatism, any kind of morals legislation, any kind of paternalism on issues of sex and marriage and family? Is the upper class’s social liberalism the lone case, the rare exception, where our self-segregated, self-interested elites really do have the greater good at heart?

Maybe so — but for the sake of argument, let’s consider the possibility that they don’t. Not infrequently in culture-war arguments, conservative complaints about liberalism’s hostility to “traditional values” (or whatever phrase you prefer) are met by the counterpoint that liberal regions of the country seem to embrace bourgeois norms more fully than conservatives communities. (The contrast between family stability in Massachusetts and Alabama, for instance, is often invoked by cultural liberals as an argument-clincher.) I think this counterpoint oversimplifies a more complicated landscape and elides some crucial issues, but it does get at something real: In upper class circles, liberal social values do not necessarily lead to libertinism among the people who hold them, and indeed quite often coexist with an impressive amount of personal conservatism, personal restraint.

But if we’re inclined, with Waldman, to see our elite as fundamentally self-interested, then we should ask ourselves whether the combination of personal restraint and cultural-political permissiveness might not itself be part of how this elite maintains its privileges. Waldman, for instance, makes the (completely valid) point that just telling a single mother to go get married to whomever she happens to be dating isn’t likely to lead to happy outcomes for anyone involved. But is that really just because of wage stagnation and the truncation of the potential-mates bell curve? Or could it also be that the decision to marry only delivers benefits when it’s part of a larger life script, a way of pursuing love and happiness that shapes people’s life choices – men as well as women — from the moment they come of age sexually, and that exerts its influence not through the power of a singular event (ring, cake, toasts) but through that event’s place in a larger mix of cues, signals, expectations, and beliefs?

If it’s the latter — and if you’re not an economic or genetic determinist, I really think it has to be — then it’s worth recognizing that much of what the (elite-driven) social revolutions of the 1970s did, in law and culture, was to strip away the most explicit cues and rules linking sex, marriage, and childrearing, and nudging people toward the two-parent bourgeois path. No longer would the law make any significant effort to enforce marriage vows. No longer would an unplanned pregnancy impose clear obligations on the father. No longer would the culture industry uphold the “marriage-then-childbearing” script as normative, or endorse any moral script around sexuality save the rule of consenting adults.

And following our hermeneutic of anti-elite suspicion, let’s ask: If the path to human flourishing still mostly runs through monogamy and marriage, who benefits the most from the kind of changes that make that path less normative, less law-supported, less obvious? Well, mostly people who are embedded in communities that continue to send the kind of signals that the law and the wider culture no longer send.

That can mean a religious community: In those red states with high divorce rates that liberals like to cite, frequent churchgoers are an exception to the pattern, and of course Mormon Utah is the high marriage-rate (and, not surprisingly, high social mobility) exception to every post-1970s trend.

I'd encourage you to read the whole article. Point being, our elites don't practice what they preach, which has hung our lower classes out to dry.

I think most wealth redistribution policies are putting lipstick on a pig. True improvement will only come when there is fundamental changes in the American family and culture.

Again, I agree with this, but how can we possibly begin fixing it? As I argued on the first page, these problems can all be traced back to the fundamental assumptions of the American ideology-- radical individualism and an outright hostility toward the intermediate institutions that have guided humanity for millennia. I see no plausible solution for what ails us on a national scale.
 
Last edited:

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
Again, I agree with this, but how can we possibly begin fixing it? As I argued on the first page, these problems can all be traced back to the fundamental assumptions of the American ideology-- radical individualism and an outright hostility toward the intermediate institutions that have guided humanity for millennia.

There's a lot of hyperbole in there. The individualist is not hostile to authority per se, but he is hostile to authority to which he did not grant his consent. The least effective and most abusive governments have always been strong, centralized regimes. There's a lot of room for middle ground (see: federalism) between statism and anarcho-capitalism but when you throw around terms like "radical individualism" and "outright hostility," you paint a broad spectrum of ideology as far too black-and-white.

I see no plausible solution for what ails us on a national scale.
I'd suggest not viewing the problems on a national scale at all. Problems that plague the nation are just the amalgamation of problems that plague the statues, which are the amalgamation of problems that plague cities and towns, which are the amalgamation of problems that plague individuals. That's all "society" is, at it's heart. You don't need to go all the way to "radical individualism" to realize that families and small communities are the groups best fitted to addressing the needs of their neighbors.
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,722
We could do this :

There is no conflation in what I say.

Many books including Paddy's Lament, and other documents show that grains and cattle to feed over 12,000,000 a year were being shipped out of Ireland at the time of the famine, under armed guard. (80 British Regiments - regulars)

The foodstuffs were produced by the absentee Irish landlords who were mostly English or Scottish. They were then shipped out under armed guard so the starving underclasses didn't intercept them.

These were used to feed other British colonies and outposts like Gibraltar, that couldn't produce food for themselves.

The real reason none of this food was used to save the Irish underclass farmers is because the English didn't want to "disrupt" the free market balance of trade that was working well for the English merchants.

The reason given by the English was because they didn't want to "build a charity dependent class." And false rumors that the Irish didn't want charity were circulated. These were lies perpetrated by those engineering the genocide. (It was opportunistic genocide.) Any one that believed or still believes these lies is stupid, ignorant, or sociopathic.

The reason that so many Irish died is because the actual Irish who remained true to their customs and traditions, were pushed down to the role of a sharecropper. Farms were divided into 20 acre plots, a farmer was given one acre to provide for his family for the year, and the other 19 were the landlord's harvest. Potatoes were one of the few crops that had the nutrient value to sustain a family, and their pig, or two, for the year. It could be stored through the winter with relatively little spoilage.

When the crop failed no one did anything to help these people. When the farmers could no longer work the fields the landlords sent well nourished men around with sledges to knock the farmers houses down regardless of whether someone was living inside or not.

The starvation, An Gota Mor began exclusively with the underclass. And it hit hard. These people were the backbone of the Irish Labor force, and desperately wanted to continue working. However, due to hunger, actual acute starvation, they could not work. The British argued against providing them any but minimal help. A thousand things could have been done to save the population, but none were.

Of roughly 8 million, over 2 died and another 2.5 left their home on unsafe or unsanitary boats. Of that 2.5 over 25 percent, or 625 thousand died en route. For its time it was as immoral as the holocaust, and just as lethal. There is no doubt that the British used this natural phenomena to starve population and depopulate the island.

The idea that one should withhold charity because of a moral imperative to allow a person to do for themselves, (or die trying), is false logic of a seriously monstrous being that is of itself entirely immoral. Every time. When someone is dying of starvation, you feed them; when someone is dying of thirst, you give them drink; when someone has little or no opportunity, you raise them up.

Now I know that some of you are of limited enough capacity that you think we are still in a place and time that one person has to compete against another, for a better job, or food. That is no longer true with technology. So perpetrating that old Calvinistic (bull shit) dogma about the sanctity of work, and that those that work hard enough to succeed will have plenty, and the rest will get their just deserts, is no longer just stupid. It is today, in and of itself immoral. Sorry, no conflation, just facts.


Let's see, Barbara Bush sees people finding a better life once forced out of shithole dump slums of New Orleans. Paul Ryan observes the toxic cycle of inner city youth opting to kill eachother and/or go to jail rather than choose productive work and responsibility. British pillage Ireland, steal the fruits of Irish labor and land, maintain second class citizenship of 80% of the Irish population, view them more as dogs than as people, turn a blind eye as 1/4th of the population flees and/or dies.... No conflation going on there at all.

The only correlation I can see there would be to analyze those Irish that successfully fled the oppressive conditions to find a new, more fruitful life elsewhere to the New Orleans folks that fled a life of futility to find a viable future in Houston and surrounding areas. Don't see them moving back, they are moving forward.

Irish worked hard but had inadequate means for even subsistence living with a system in place to perpetuate this cycle. Kind of makes the US look smart for standing up to taxation without representation.
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,722
... because they put in the system that allows them to do this:

"Berkshire's deal with Graham Holdings is structured in a way that may allow the Warren Buffett-run conglomerate to exit a multi-decade investment in Graham Holdings without paying any capital gains tax, Robert Willens, an independent tax expert, said in a Friday telephone interview."

Berkshire May Avoid $400 Million Tax Bill In Graham Holdings Swap - TheStreet

Warren Buffett is one of biggest hypocrites on the planet when it comes to anything he chimes in related to taxation.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
There's a lot of hyperbole in there. The individualist is not hostile to authority per se, but he is hostile to authority to which he did not grant his consent.

This is social contractarianism, which rests on some very questionable assumptions, despite being the bedrock foundation for America's political order. At which point did you explicitly consent to your parents' authority over you? Or the Federal government's?

You never did, of course, and virtually no one does. That's simply not how societies are formed, or how humans interact with one another. In fact, the concept of an autonomous self-owning individual was entirely foreign to humanity prior to its invention by Hobbes, Locke and other Enlightenment thinkers. The ancient Greek and Catholic concept is that, far from being a sovereign entity, each individual is a contingent being; not just upon God, but upon family, culture, community, etc.

The liberal concept of the autonomous self is central to many of our current problems, but you take it for granted.

The least effective and most abusive governments have always been strong, centralized regimes.

Agreed. Subsidiarity is a cornerstone of Catholic social thought. I am an ardent federalist.

There's a lot of room for middle ground (see: federalism) between statism and anarcho-capitalism but when you throw around terms like "radical individualism" and "outright hostility," you paint a broad spectrum of ideology as far too black-and-white.

The liberal concept of an autonomous self was radical at the time, and I think it's central to a lot of the pernicious issues in our culture today. That philosophical assumption, which results in social contractarianism and the undermining of tradition and custom as organizing principles in society, is indeed "outright hostile" to the intermediate institutions that are crucial to transmitting virtue from one generation to the next.

I'd suggest not viewing the problems on a national scale at all. Problems that plague the nation are just the amalgamation of problems that plague the statues, which are the amalgamation of problems that plague cities and towns, which are the amalgamation of problems that plague individuals. That's all "society" is, at it's heart.

I think our problems stem from the fundamental assumptions that underlie liberal democracy. Virtually all of your responses to me take those very assumptions for granted. Which basically proves my point that, to the extent I'm right about the cause of our problems, fixing them is going to be nearly impossible.

You don't need to go all the way to "radical individualism" to realize that families and small communities are the groups best fitted to addressing the needs of their neighbors.

But the American ideology gives those organizations no rights; in fact, it presumes them to be oppressive, and to the extent that the interests of family or community collide with the individual, the individual must always win. Which assures that those intermediate institutions are impotent. Thus, the "outright hostility". That's why Catholic social thought and most Distributist systems set the family as the basic unit of society, and not the individual.
 
Last edited:
B

Bogtrotter07

Guest
Let's see, Barbara Bush sees people finding a better life once forced out of shithole dump slums of New Orleans. Paul Ryan observes the toxic cycle of inner city youth opting to kill eachother and/or go to jail rather than choose productive work and responsibility. British pillage Ireland, steal the fruits of Irish labor and land, maintain second class citizenship of 80% of the Irish population, view them more as dogs than as people, turn a blind eye as 1/4th of the population flees and/or dies.... No conflation going on there at all.

The only correlation I can see there would be to analyze those Irish that successfully fled the oppressive conditions to find a new, more fruitful life elsewhere to the New Orleans folks that fled a life of futility to find a viable future in Houston and surrounding areas. Don't see them moving back, they are moving forward.

Irish worked hard but had inadequate means for even subsistence living with a system in place to perpetuate this cycle. Kind of makes the US look smart for standing up to taxation without representation.

The point is each represented point of view was subjective based upon their own perspective point of view, not objective data. And where the art came in in my opinion is each was a greater stretch from the subjective to the objective, until we got to the Irish starvation which some have called opportunistic genocide. Like this, with all respect, RDU, because you know I like you, and respect your point.

With what the people from New Orleans went through to call anything about their life at that time better, was an indicator of racism and classism. Everyone with any quality of life had the ability to flee the storm. All the people housed in the Astrodome, weathered the storm, and then after they got the shit kicked out of them, they were bussed to Houston, some medical reports showed signs of starvation, dehydration, and PTSD at unbelievable levels. And the woman came off as wanting to have the blacks out of her city, back where they belonged.

With Ryan, much was wrong with what he said. But I can tell you this. I have seen young men from good backgrounds that get wrapped up in violence for much shorter periods of time, that cannot find their way out. I could cry right now in fact. I have a little boy that went to school with my son, who is part of a family falling off the grid. If this kid doesn't get help, he will live in a similar situation, and probably fall down into it. I cannot see it as his responsibility. He is 8. His name is Elijah, and he has the brightest smile you have ever seen.

As far as the Irish situation, I have said enough.
 

tussin

Well-known member
Messages
4,153
Reaction score
1,982
Whiskey, your contributions to this thread have been great. I, like you, struggle to come up with adequate solutions to current problems. I think that is because the causes you are promoting are a bit more abstract (though logical) and would really take some fundamental changes to society that may be unrealistic.

Switching up topics a bit, here's an interesting article I randomly came across on minimum wage workers (you should all check out fivethirtyeight btw):

FiveThirtyEight | Typical Minimum-Wage Earners Aren’t Poor, But They’re Not Quite Middle Class
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,722
Bogs - I knew you would engage passionately in the discussion so I admit I am trolling a bit.

I'm not disagreeing with the travesty of the Great Famine, just find it ludicrous to equate the other things to it. Particularly when your validation is b/c you think someone is a racist.

Better question, how the hell do you solve the cycle of poverty and violence in urban slums? How do you instill a work ethic in a culture that no longer values work? I appreciate as much as anyone how people get stuck where they are and rarely move out of their own free will to seek better opportunities. I just feel the best way to do it is to make productive work and responsible choices the path of least resistance.

If you had to scrub toilets and pick up garbage along the road to collect your welfare, wouldn't that build more self worth and work ethic? Provide more incentive to get off whatever support you were receiving? Maybe drug test to get your check so that you are encouraging better choices that may lead to a more self sufficient life?

We are a long ways from people starving in the streets when our definition of "poverty" means 30% BMI, 4 TVs, every gaming console imaginable, cell phones and designer clothing.
 

chicago51

Well-known member
Messages
3,658
Reaction score
387
Warren Buffett is one of biggest hypocrites on the planet when it comes to anything he chimes in related to taxation.

Yes he is. Bill Gates as well. They are two of the worse when it comes to stashing money overseas.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
Yes he is. Bill Gates as well. They are two of the worse when it comes to stashing money overseas.

Yup. They make a public fuss about income inequality and rich people "paying their fair share" so they get a free pass from the media on their own hypocrisy. Athletes, musicians, and actors/actresses are another batch of folks who do the same thing.
 

tussin

Well-known member
Messages
4,153
Reaction score
1,982
Yes he is. Bill Gates as well. They are two of the worse when it comes to stashing money overseas.

Yet Gates and Buffett have done more to improve global healthcare and reduce poverty than perhaps any two humans in modern history.
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,722
Yet Gates and Buffett have done more to improve global healthcare and reduce poverty than perhaps any two humans in modern history.

And they are smart enough to leverage their wealth to do it through charity rather than petition government, thus the ultimate hypocrisy. Now if they were to give half to Uncle Sam prior to funding their charity they would be eating their own cooking, no?
 
B

Bogtrotter07

Guest
Bogs - I knew you would engage passionately in the discussion so I admit I am trolling a bit.

I'm not disagreeing with the travesty of the Great Famine, just find it ludicrous to equate the other things to it. Particularly when your validation is b/c you think someone is a racist.

Better question, how the hell do you solve the cycle of poverty and violence in urban slums? How do you instill a work ethic in a culture that no longer values work? I appreciate as much as anyone how people get stuck where they are and rarely move out of their own free will to seek better opportunities. I just feel the best way to do it is to make productive work and responsible choices the path of least resistance.

If you had to scrub toilets and pick up garbage along the road to collect your welfare, wouldn't that build more self worth and work ethic? Provide more incentive to get off whatever support you were receiving? Maybe drug test to get your check so that you are encouraging better choices that may lead to a more self sufficient life?

We are a long ways from people starving in the streets when our definition of "poverty" means 30% BMI, 4 TVs, every gaming console imaginable, cell phones and designer clothing.

Two good questions. And important ones. I would look at it like maybe it isn't about a culture that no longer values work, but one who enrolls and creates a franchise for those that have none.
 
Top