Dan Fox > Carlo Calabrese

[IrishLax]

Lax, it seems you are basing your opinion on the fact that Fox has a ceiling that will hinder his run stopping ability. According to BK, he has been improving in this area and could still continue to improve in this area and play at a Brian Smith level by mid way through the season. Hopefully this is the case and the scenario plays out the way we want.

Thanks for pointing that out. You're correct. Do you have a link to him saying that? Because honestly if this is true, a lot of my concern goes away. But I haven't seen it.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The same logic applies to this battle. We know that Carlo can plug holes, defeat blocks and stuff the run. And here's what else we know:
-Fox and Carlo have been declared "even" many times.
-Fox is good in coverage (from what I've heard).
-If they are "even" and we know Carlo is really good at some aspects and struggles at others, it stands to reason that Fox is good at the aspects Carlo is bad at... but poor at the ones Carlo is good at. If this was not the case, and Fox was good at everything, then they would not be "1 and 1" as Diaco put it. Fox would be a clear 1, and Carlo a 2.
-Therefor, if each player has a flaw stopping them from being a clear starter, they aren't going to being playing at a game-changing level.

Since we're hypothesizing here, let's say that last season Carlo was "A" against the run, but a "C-" in coverage, while Foxy was a "C" against the run and a "B" in coverage. In that scenario, it's not surprising that Carlo was starting because he was an overall better LB.

Now let's assume that Foxy has stepped up his physicality against the run (because Kelly said so), so he's a "B" against the run and a "B+" in coverage now. That's a significant upgrade from Carlo's performance last year, even if Foxy isn't an "A" in either area. Then also factor in that coverage skills are probably more important for Diaco's Will than run support, and it's an exciting upgrade.

**Yeah, this is all conjecture. Of course it is. I'm not a coach with eyes on every practice. But my point is that reading the tea leaves there is very little chance we get someone playing at Brain Smith's level. And that should concern people. Because Brian Smith balling out was a HUGE part of why our defense was awesome. And if we can't get that level of play, I'm not quite sure our defense is going to be top 10 like I'm hoping/expecting it to be. What I was hoping for is "Carlo has drastically improved his agility and situational awareness and has been doing phenomenally in coverage." That, sadly, didn't happen.

Brian Smith was such a big upgrade over Carlo because he was good in coverage and flowing to the ball. That kind of sideline-to-sideline play is why he seemed to be everywhere, and that's primarily what we need from the Will; less so Carlo's one-dimensional run-stuffing. If you're looking for Brian Smith 2.0 this year, it's much more likely to be Foxy than Carlo.

That said, Carlo is a known quantity, so it's natural for many of us to want the staff to keep his strengths and coach up his weaknesses. But we don't see practice, so we have to assume that Foxy's overall LB "GPA" is better than Carlo's.

 

[GoldenDomer87]

I would say we focus on the above statement.

In the staff's opinion and Diaco's voodoo psychology, they believe that Fox is more suited to what they're trying to show in their defensive front 7. I don't think the staff thinks this is a weakness, I think they just liked how Dan Fox has shown himself in the recent weeks. Guys, we want competition. We want guys fighting for position and PT. This staff has taken away the entitlement and made guys hungry again.

Will we still see Carlo? You're damn right we will. 3rd and short... who do you think will be in the middle to stuff the run?

These guys will rotate. The staff wants fresh bodies all game. This is their system. We need to get used to it.

No doubt. The Mich St. game Carlo will probably be on the field more; Pitt, Fox will probably see the field more. My point was that Fox was deemed 1 for a reason. I see this position much like SS with Motta and Slaughter. Again Slaughter was deemed 1 for a reason. Same with LG. We will see Nuss as well.

Edit: After reading other posts: Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but Brian Smith had an A game against USC, THAT'S IT. Brian Smith understood what Diaco wanted. He is not the reason that defense was good. I don't think the defense will lose a step. Fox and Carlo are talent upgrades and now have a second year of coaching. Manti is the glue, PERIOD.

 

[clashmore_mike]

Thanks for pointing that out. You're correct. Do you have a link to him saying that? Because honestly if this is true, a lot of my concern goes away. But I haven't seen it.

Kelly said today that Fox didn't like or want contact last year. Now he likes it and understands it is a part of the game for the zone that he plays in. His ability to play the run has improved at least in the coaches' eyes.

 

[BabyIrish]

Thanks for pointing that out. You're correct. Do you have a link to him saying that? Because honestly if this is true, a lot of my concern goes away. But I haven't seen it.

Today's Presser, jump ahead to 15:30 and he speaks on Fox specifically for a minute. He speaks on his athletic ability and playing outside but that he transformed physically where he can now bang with the opposing offensive linemen. Anything I can do to help a brother out.

 

[TDHeysus]

As much as a I like Brian Smith, and as well as he played in the last 4 games, especially the USC and bowl game, I dont believe the surge of the defense was predicated with him. The defense was solidified by guys 'knowing their roles' in a system that was working. It took most of the season but the defense came together where you can see everything was clicking and it began to snowball (in a good way).

Maybe instead of the defense rallying around Brian Smith playing great. maybe Brian smith looked great, because the defensive system was in place and functioning properly(in addition to his skills as a LB). Allowing Brian Smith to focus on his responsibilites. Guys can look good when they only need to focus on their positional responsibilities, rather than having to look over their shoulder to cover for teammates who are out of position either from the scheme or just bad decisions.

I believe the defense was better because of a.) ND has the horses to compete, even more so this year. b.) A defensive system was and is in place that has a clear plan and vision of what each player needs to accomplish and the players 'bought-in' to the defensive system.

One difference with this upcoming year, I really believe now the defense expects to be good, when last year they were hoping they'd be good.

 

[IrishLax]

Edit: After reading other posts: Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but Brian Smith had an A game against USC, THAT'S IT. Brian Smith understood what Diaco wanted. He is not the reason that defense was good. I don't think the defense will lose a step. Fox and Carlo are talent upgrades and now have a second year of coaching. Manti is the glue, PERIOD.

Brian Smith had awesome games against Utah, Army, USC and Miami. If you don't believe me go watch the films. His pick against Army was a sick read. He was all over the place blowing up **** against USC... especially at crucial moments. That was an A+ game. But he was very, very good in each of those last 4 games.

 

[GoldenDomer87]

I don't doubt he had good games. He knew the system. I just don't think he is an A type player. I don't think he was the reason the defense figured it out. I love his heart and attitude. However, he is slow, an inconsistent tackler, and average at taking on blocks. I would take Fox or Carlo now any day over Brian Smith. I appreciate what Brian Smith did for the team.

 

[IrishLax]

I don't doubt he had good games. He knew the system. I just don't think he is an A type player. I don't think he was the reason the defense figured it out. I love his heart and attitude. However, he is slow, an inconsistent tackler, and average at taking on blocks. I would take Fox or Carlo now any day over Brian Smith. I appreciate what Brian Smith did for the team.

Crazy talk. He's also 1st string on an NFL team right now. And he did not "know the system"... it was a completely new system and he played at OLB for half of the season. His ability to play the WILL like someone is supposed to made a huge difference.

Over the last 4 games Brian Smith had: 20 tackles, 4 PBRs and an interception. That is the most PBRs on the entire team over that span. Coverage is a primary responsibility of the WILL and Smith's ability to be a stud in that department paid huge dividends.

If you would honestly start either untested Fox or can't cover Carlo over Brian Smith... well, I simply do not agree with that. And neither would the coaches.

 

[TDHeysus]

Today's Presser, jump ahead to 15:30 and he speaks on Fox specifically for a minute. He speaks on his athletic ability and playing outside but that he transformed physically where he can now bang with the opposing offensive linemen.

I interpret this as BK saying Fox toughness/speed > Carlo toughness/power.

Having Fox in there makes the defense faster, which is inline with BK's philosophy of overall team speed.

Carlo will still be cracking skulls out there this year...you cant keep a guy like that off the field

 

[GoldenDomer87]

Crazy talk. He's also 1st string on an NFL team right now. And he did not "know the system"... it was a completely new system and he played at OLB for half of the season. His ability to play the WILL like someone is supposed to made a huge difference.

Over the last 4 games Brian Smith had: 20 tackles, 4 PBRs and an interception. That is the most PBRs on the entire team over that span. Coverage is a primary responsibility of the WILL and Smith's ability to be a stud in that department paid huge dividends.

If you would honestly start either untested Fox or can't cover Carlo over Brian Smith... well, I simply do not agree with that. And neither would the coaches.

I don't know where you get your information. He was undrafted and is second team on the Browns. I think that speaks to his skill set. He had previously played in a 3-4, so he had a jump start on the basics. I will take your word he had four good games. I'm saying overall, Brian Smith was average. I think Carlo and Fox both have higher ceilings. I'm not dissing the kid, like I said I loved him. He loved ND and play his heart out. I think what we have now is better. Obviously you don't. We will see.

 

[jason_h537]

They will both play and be used depending on the opponent and situation. If its USF and its 3rd and goal on the 2 yard line then I am certian Carlo will be ready to go in.

If its MSU, 3rd and 15 then Fox might get the call.

Both will see plenty of PT

 

[ChiefSecond]

Smith is GONE bro and he ain't never coming back again...gotta get over it, and fast...

ND will no doubt at least initially be weaker at the Will than they were when they finished out last year, HOWEVER they should most definitely be a stronger LB unit as a WHOLE and a stronger D-line as a WHOLE. The secondary will be better or equal to how they finished last year.

ND can mask a small deficiency at the Will in the early stages.

The Will is about coverage(something carlo CANNOT do) and closing on the football from sideline to sideline(carlo is too slow)....nobody said he got cut from the roster, he'll still be there to stuff third and short.

Fox does the first two requirements better..carlo does the least important requirement better. Fox is the Will.

 

[Old Man Mike]

In the recent interview with Diaco, our famous DC said that there NEVER was a problem with Dan Fox shying away from contact, or "not liking it". Diaco said that Dan's trouble was never "intent" but rather he just had poor tackling technique. Diaco said that this was a problem fairly easy to address and they've done it. Since Diaco is the linebackers coach, I'm getting on his side on this one.


Lest we forget: When Diaco walks past a mirror, his reflection salutes.

 

[NDinL.A.]

I don't doubt he had good games. He knew the system. I just don't think he is an A type player. I don't think he was the reason the defense figured it out. I love his heart and attitude. However, he is slow, an inconsistent tackler, and average at taking on blocks. I would take Fox or Carlo now any day over Brian Smith. I appreciate what Brian Smith did for the team.

I will take your word he had four good games. I'm saying overall, Brian Smith was average. I think Carlo and Fox both have higher ceilings. I think what we have now is better. Obviously you don't. We will see.

Man, I gotta jump in here. I think you are seriously underestimated how good B. Smith was those last 4 games. I mean, he was friggin' lights out good. Shockingly good. It means jack-crap how he was overall. When our defense took off in the past 4 games, he was a huge part of it. What we had with Brian Smith by the Miami game was a known quantity. What you are saying is better is an unknown quantity. Actually, we kinda know what we have with Carlo (stout against the run, too slow last year going side-to-side). With Fox, it's a completely unknown quantity. I just don't see how anyone could say they would rather have what we have now (potential) over what we had last year (basically, awesomeness).

B. Smith is gone now obviously, and I hope that what you say is true. But as LAX says, if you go back and watch the tape (and I have all 4 games still on my DVR and believe me, this junkie has seen them a few times), you'll see how severely you are underestimating B Smith. Cheers though!

 

[Old Man Mike]

When speaking of Brian smith in our last part of the season, I cannot at all relate to terms like "slow", "inconsistent", or "average". He lit our defense up. I was so thrilled watching a middle linebacker for Notre Dame destroying plays all over the field [even more than Manti] that I decided right then to look very hard for a faster, more gap-closing partner for Te'o. Fox [or Shembo] seemed the best option.

 

[clashmore_mike]

I'd take Brian Smith at the Will for 4 more years if possible. He was bounced around a lot due to the constant changes in defensive philosophies. Similar to Harrison Smith in that once he finally was properly utilized, he was a beast.

 

[GoldenDomer87]

Man, I gotta jump in here. I think you are seriously underestimated how good B. Smith was those last 4 games. I mean, he was friggin' lights out good. Shockingly good. It means jack-crap how he was overall. When our defense took off in the past 4 games, he was a huge part of it. What we had with Brian Smith by the Miami game was a known quantity. What you are saying is better is an unknown quantity. Actually, we kinda know what we have with Carlo (stout against the run, too slow last year going side-to-side). With Fox, it's a completely unknown quantity. I just don't see how anyone could say they would rather have what we have now (potential) over what we had last year (basically, awesomeness).

B. Smith is gone now obviously, and I hope that what you say is true. But as LAX says, if you go back and watch the tape (and I have all 4 games still on my DVR and believe me, this junkie has seen them a few times), you'll see how severely you are underestimating B Smith. Cheers though!

I admitted that Brian Smith had 4 good games. How can you look at just 4 games though. YOUR TALKING ABOUT 4 GAMES. We should have been crowned national champions then.

If Brian Smith was such a great LB, why was he undrafted? He had spurts where he played well, but didn't consistently play well. Brian Smith was splitting time with Kerry Neal at the Dog until Carlo got hurt. He was a known quantity. He was an average player, who got jacked up for important games and sometimes played well.

 

[IrishLax]

I admitted that Brian Smith had 4 good games. How can you look at just 4 games though. YOUR TALKING ABOUT 4 GAMES. We should have been crowned national champions then.

If Brian Smith was such a great LB, why was he undrafted? He had spurts where he played well, but didn't consistently play well. Brian Smith was splitting time with Kerry Neal at the Dog until Carlo got hurt. He was a known quantity. He was an average player, who got jacked up for important games and sometimes played well.

Dude... we're talking about what our defense needs to be dominant. This whole thread was created to focus on a potential threat to our defense playing at the dominant level we saw at the end of last season.

Our defense was only dominant for those 4 games. Brian Smith only played ILB for those 4 games (well, and Tulsa, where our defense was actually really good only giving up 1 TD the whole game... and Smith also had a really good game with 7 tackles, a sack and a forced fumble). Therefor, those 4 games are the only relevant games to this discussion. It wouldn't make any sense to pull in examples from Michigan where Smith blew contain playing OLB. I don't really see what is hard to grasp here.

And to a post earlier, Brian Smith started the last game for the Browns. Therefor, until he gets benched (which very well may be this week, but who knows) he's an NFL starter. I don't really see where the debate is here either.

 

[GoldenDomer87]

^ Was he a better fit at the Will... YES.

But if our defense was dominant because of an undrafted MLB, the defense is not where it needs to be and we are looking at a 7-6 or 8-5 season.

Edit: I'm done.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Complete travesty. From then on Stanford had the momentum and it was all over for ND.

Are you insinuating that that one play cost the Irish the game?

 

[ResLife Hero]

Hey guys, relatively new to the board, but I figured I'd throw my two cents in here. I agree B. Smith was a beast down the stretch last year, and God knows I loved his performance against USC (screamed so much joyous profanity after that game, I thought my mom would disown me). That being said, I really liked Carlo's run-stuffing ability last year and thought if Manti could improve in pass defense, we'd be set this year. If Dan has improved so much as to pass Carlo (and remember, Kelly didn't say Carlo was relegated to minimum snaps), then I'm thrilled because that means:
a) Both have improved
b) Dan made huge improvements to overcome the shortcomings that buried him on the depth chart last year.

I hope we see both get serious playing time, but I don't see this as a negative thing necessarily. It could be that Dan Fox is on the way to being a stud, and we'll get to see Shembo, Manti and the rest of the LB crew have a chance to wreak havoc rushing the passer.

 

[Veer option]

Are you insinuating that that one play cost the Irish the game?

Yes

 

[ND55]

New here but wanted to jump in on this one.

I was surprised to hear about about Fox getting the nod, but as I thought about it I wonder if it has to do with the improved play of the DLine and the added depth there. If the Dline is as good as we are expecting then the middle backers should have to spend less time fighting off Olineman, and hence the greater value put on mobility and coverage skills.

 

[rtrn2glory]

i'm sure its been said, but with our talent on the d line the pressure is drastically going to lighten the load at linebacker, making manti, fox, carlo, and moore's job much easier

 

[Black Irish]

I have painful memories from last season watching the Irish get short-passed to death. Opponents just ate them up 5-10 yards at a time. That was a real hole that needed to be plugged, and if Fox is that much better than Carlo at pass coverage then I'm all for him getting the nod.

 

[THegraNDscheme]

Chalk Talk: The ND 3-4 Transition Part I- Expectations - One Foot Down


Interesting read from "One Foot Down" that relates to the Fox vs Carlo vs Brian Smith argument. Seems that 3-4 alignment has more to do with technique than pure talent. As such, perhaps Smith raised his game at the end of the year b/c everything was finally clicking for him (not necessarily b/c he is a beast or incredible athlete). Similarly, it appears that staff may just believe that Fox gets it more than Carlo. Either way, this seems to indicate that we do not need a five star guy to be effective in this spot as long as the player knows their role and uses the proper technique. (NOTE: This article was written prior to last season and appears to have been proven true by season's end which makes me trust the knowledge of its author.)

The odd alignment is more technique dependent than talent dependent so it is easier to find the next guy on the depth chart and teach him his role in the defense. Most of what you must do and teach is not size, speed, or strength dependent although once you learn what must be done your size, speed and strength contribute.

I believe that this new Notre Dame staff is committed to the 3-4 philosophy and that the players will buy in. Look for the defense to show great improvement next season from week 1 to the end with the "D" coming on stronger and stronger as the season goes on. There should be no more late season losing streaks to inferior opponents as this team will actually improve each week throughout the season.

When a player is replaced with another, the drop off in talent won't be as apparent as talent is trumped by technique in the 3-4. As long as the coaches demand outstanding technique, whatever player is in there will be able to man his position and fulfill his responsibility.

 

[TerryTate]

No Access

Carlo and Dan are going to be 50-50 players

 

[kmoose]

And to a post earlier, Brian Smith started the last game for the Browns. Therefor, until he gets benched (which very well may be this week, but who knows) he's an NFL starter.

I'm not even going to enter into the rest of the debate. But a guy is not an NFL starter, until he's listed as the 1, on a REGULAR SEASON 2-deep.