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NorthDakota

NorthDakota

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Sea Turtle said:
Every time the Palestinians reject a deal, the next one gets worse due to time and reality.

They should have taken the 1947 deal. They would have had half of all of Israel. They will never get that deal again.

Then they should have taken the Oslo deal. 94% of the entire West Bank and Gaza plus East Jerusalem. They will never get that deal again.
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They will end up with nothing and no one but goofy college students are going to care.
 
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Bluto

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Sea Turtle said:
Every time the Palestinians reject a deal, the next one gets worse due to time and reality.

They should have taken the 1947 deal. They would have had half of all of Israel. They will never get that deal again.

Then they should have taken the Oslo deal. 94% of the entire West Bank and Gaza plus East Jerusalem. They will never get that deal again.
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This is a completely inaccurate, yet not surprising representation of history and how things played out.

The PLO (the only non-sectarian player in this mess btw) was a willing partner as it relates to Oslo. One of the big drivers that helped tank that? Conservative Israelis and the settler movement.

Case in point, the Israeli PM who was willing to negotiate with the PLO in reasonably good faith as it related to the Oslo agreement, Rabin ended up being assassinated by a right wing Jew who was aligned with the settler movement.

Take a wild guess who was also aligned with the groups that were calling for Rabin’s head and was spouting highly inflammatory rhetoric every chance he got including leading a mock funeral where the crowd chanted “death to Rabin” leading up to Rabin’s assassination? Netanyahu.
 
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ulukinatme

ulukinatme

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Bluto said:
This is a completely inaccurate, yet not surprising representation of history and how things played out.

The PLO (the only non-sectarian player in this mess btw) was a willing partner as it relates to Oslo. One of the big drivers that helped tank that? Conservative Israelis and the settler movement.

Case in point, the Israeli PM who was willing to negotiate with the PLO in reasonably good faith as it related to the Oslo agreement, Rabin ended up being assassinated by a right wing Jew who was aligned with the settler movement.

Take a wild guess who was also aligned with the groups that were calling for Rabin’s head and was spouting highly inflammatory rhetoric every chance he got including leading a mock funeral where the crowd chanted “death to Rabin” leading up to Rabin’s assassination? Netanyahu.
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The Oslo process broke down because of extremists on both sides. The death of Rabin was certainly a big part of it, but along with religious nationalists there were Hamas suicide bombings going on during that time.

www.britannica.com

Two-state solution | Definition, Facts, History, & Map

Two-state solution, proposed framework for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by establishing two states for two peoples: Israel for the Jewish people and Palestine for the Palestinian people. This framework was formally adopted by Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)...
www.britannica.com www.britannica.com
From the start, some Israelis and Palestinians sought to disrupt a two-state solution. Religious nationalists on both sides believed their respective governments did not have the right to cede any part of the land. In 1994, during the overlap of the Jewish festival of Purim and the Islamic holy month of Ramadan, Jewish extremist Baruch Goldstein opened fire on Muslim worshippers in the Sanctuary of Abraham above the Cave of Machpelah (also called the Tomb of the Patriarchs) in Hebron, a holy site frequented by both Jews and Muslims. The same year, Hamas, a militant Palestinian organization that likewise rejected a two-state solution, began a campaign of suicide bombings. On November 4, 1995, Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish extremist while attending a peace rally.
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Sea Turtle

Sea Turtle

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Bluto said:
This is a completely inaccurate, yet not surprising representation of history and how things played out.

The PLO (the only non-sectarian player in this mess btw) was a willing partner as it relates to Oslo. One of the big drivers that helped tank that? Conservative Israelis and the settler movement.

Case in point, the Israeli PM who was willing to negotiate with the PLO in reasonably good faith as it related to the Oslo agreement, Rabin ended up being assassinated by a right wing Jew who was aligned with the settler movement.

Take a wild guess who was also aligned with the groups that were calling for Rabin’s head and was spouting highly inflammatory rhetoric every chance he got including leading a mock funeral where the crowd chanted “death to Rabin” leading up to Rabin’s assassination? Netanyahu.
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Bill Clinton blamed Arafat. He knows more about what happened than all of us combined..

www.newsweek.com

Clinton To Arafat: It's All Your Fault

Nearly a year after he failed to achieve a deal at Camp David, former president Bill Clinton gave vent to his frustrations this week over the collapse of peace in the Mideast.
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
 
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Bluto

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Sea Turtle said:
Bill Clinton blamed Arafat. He knows more about what happened than all of us combined..

www.newsweek.com

Clinton To Arafat: It's All Your Fault

Nearly a year after he failed to achieve a deal at Camp David, former president Bill Clinton gave vent to his frustrations this week over the collapse of peace in the Mideast.
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
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Ah yes, Bill Clinton couldn’t possibly be biased in his own assessment.

One of Clinton’s advisors disagreed with his rather simplistic assessment. He wrote a pretty interesting book about the subject.

Camp David: The Tragedy of Errors: Robert Malley and Hussein Agha​

 
IRISHDODGER

IRISHDODGER

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Bluto said:
This is a completely inaccurate, yet not surprising representation of history and how things played out.

The PLO (the only non-sectarian player in this mess btw) was a willing partner as it relates to Oslo. One of the big drivers that helped tank that? Conservative Israelis and the settler movement.

Case in point, the Israeli PM who was willing to negotiate with the PLO in reasonably good faith as it related to the Oslo agreement, Rabin ended up being assassinated by a right wing Jew who was aligned with the settler movement.

Take a wild guess who was also aligned with the groups that were calling for Rabin’s head and was spouting highly inflammatory rhetoric every chance he got including leading a mock funeral where the crowd chanted “death to Rabin” leading up to Rabin’s assassination? Netanyahu.
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Didn’t one of Rabin’s cabinet members (first name was Schlomo) admit in his book that he didn’t blame Arafat for rejecting the deal b/c it wasn’t a good deal for the PLO?
 
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IRISHDODGER said:
Didn’t one of Rabin’s cabinet members (first name was Schlomo) admit in his book that he didn’t blame Arafat for rejecting the deal b/c it wasn’t a good deal for the PLO?
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I’m not sure. I would recommend to anyone who is truly interested in understanding the complexities surrounding this issue to watch the documentary “The Gatekeepers” (which I posted a link to the free online version of) before stating it was all Arafat’s fault. That argument just does not hold water.
 
IRISHDODGER

IRISHDODGER

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Bluto said:
I’m not sure. I would recommend to anyone who is truly interested in understanding the complexities surrounding this issue to watch the documentary “The Gatekeepers” (which I posted a link to the free online version of) before stating it was all Arafat’s fault. That argument just does not hold water.
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I’ll check it out. I’m fascinated w/ this conflict & conclude that it’s truly difficult to parse. When Britain placed Jews in Israel they actually got along w/ the Palestinians for awhile. Then both sides realized Britain was talking out of both sides of their mouth before pulling out realizing it was no longer worth having a presence there as their own police force was getting attacked. One thing I would hope all would agree on is that both sides have been brutalized by the other.
 
TorontoGold

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IRISHDODGER said:
I’ll check it out. I’m fascinated w/ this conflict & conclude that it’s truly difficult to parse. When Britain placed Jews in Israel they actually got along w/ the Palestinians for awhile. Then both sides realized Britain was talking out of both sides of their mouth before pulling out realizing it was no longer worth having a presence there as their own police force was getting attacked. One thing I would hope all would agree on is that both sides have been brutalized by the other.
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Colonialism fucked 'em good. Religious states are always going to go awry - see any Islamic fundamentalist state.
 
ulukinatme

ulukinatme

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drayer54 said:
Liberals rejoice.



Reminder that you can get arrested for leaving tire tracks on the pride painted street.
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Saw the pics of the protest. I'm going to say it wasn't cool when Cathy Griffin had the bloody fake Trump head in 2016, and the bloody Biden head today isn't cool either. That's too far. Oddly enough it's liberals in both cases.
 
Sea Turtle

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ulukinatme said:
Saw the pics of the protest. I'm going to say it wasn't cool when Cathy Griffin had the bloody fake Trump head in 2016, and the bloody Biden head today isn't cool either. That's too far. Oddly enough it's liberals in both cases.
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The bloody Biden head is indeed despicable. They are also destroying War Monuments that go all the way back to the Revolutionary War, burning US flags and chanting death to America. They are attacking the police and park rangers and forced the Secret Service to retreat.

Hundreds of thousands of these people.
 
drayer54

drayer54

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Sea Turtle said:
The bloody Biden head is indeed despicable. They are also destroying War Monuments that go all the way back to the Revolutionary War, burning US flags and chanting death to America. They are attacking the police and park rangers and forced the Secret Service to retreat.

Hundreds of thousands of these people.
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Just remember the two totally different systems of justice that exist in this country.
 
Sea Turtle

Sea Turtle

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drayer54 said:
Just remember the two totally different systems of justice that exist in this country.
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It appears Europe has had enough.

apnews.com

The Latest | Election shifts the European Parliament further right

Far-right parties have made big gains in the European Parliament in election results that rattled the traditional powers and made French President Emmanuel Macron call snap legislative elections.
apnews.com apnews.com



apnews.com

Far-right gains in the EU election deal stunning defeats to France's Macron and Germany's Scholz

Exit polls for ARD and ZDF public television showed support for Chancellor Olaf Scholz’s center-left Social Democrats at 14%, below the 15.8% they managed in 2019 and far below their showing in Germany’s last national election in 2021.
apnews.com apnews.com
 
Irish#1

Irish#1

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Watching that clip, it appears that many were just hanging out and not protesting. Where's their conviction?
 
ulukinatme

ulukinatme

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Irish#1 said:
I don't think they thought this unionizing thing all the way through before voting.

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Reminds me of the Hostess strike when the company was already on the verge of bankruptcy a decade ago. All the union workers ended up getting laid off, the company sold off assets, and then reemerged sans-union.
 
RDU Irish

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ulukinatme said:
Reminds me of the Hostess strike when the company was already on the verge of bankruptcy a decade ago. All the union workers ended up getting laid off, the company sold off assets, and then reemerged sans-union.
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Libs view all companies and bottomless piggybanks. Saw someone posting on Kroger earnings showing their gross margin shrunk from something like 3.3% to 2.9% last quarter. Wide margin tech gets a free pass but providing essential services gets margins compressed close to zero only to take the brunt of blame for inflation.
 
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