Crist vs Rees

[BGIF]

... look at these stats for Rees in the 4th quarter this year:

4th quarter - 35/44 (80%) for 338 yards 3 TD, 1 INT, 162 QB rating.

...

Shades of Joe Montana.

 

[georgia irish]

Ree's has chemistry with Toma' I think he gets open quickly and they seem to be on the same page which helps Ree's confidence.

 

[pkt77242]

Forgive me if I am not a subscriber to that theory. What you describe is a borderline entitlement. If you are the leader, you have to perform at a high level. For too long we have accepted mediocre performance from our "leaders". If you are not getting the job done, coach's job is to put somebody in who can get it done. I don't have any problems with Crist being benched; but if that is the standard that Kelly set, Rees should also have a seat on the bench.

Entitlement? It is called teaching someone to be a leader. That doesn't mean have a ****** game and I bench you unless you are failing at one of these things (well there might be one or two more out there but I can't think of them right now) as a young leader learning on the job.
(and lets be honest Rees is learning on the job)

1. Learn from your mistakes (and no this doesn't mean he should magically stop throwing int's). If you see the safetey faking the blitz and then backing into coverage, and you misread it and throw a pick, learn from it and when you see the safety backing up next time don't throw the same pass.

2. Work harder and longer then everyone else. (in this case be the gymrat). Watch as much tape as possible, know the plays backwards and forwards.

3. Leadership. Mistakes happen, how does he respond. Does he keep his head up? Do the people following believe in him?

Here is the thing. I have no idea how good Crist is at 1 and 2. and I don't know how good Rees is at 1. I do know that Rees has been called a gymrat by Kelly multiple times so that tells me he passes number 2.

But the kicker is number 3. If you tivoed the USF game, watch Crist's body language as he walks off the field after some of the drives. He looks confused and/or lost. He looks like he doesn't have faith. Kelly had no choice but to pull him (and I wanted Crist to start the season but after seeing that I was completely fine with going to Rees). Rees has number 3in abundance. Does it mean that Rees will make some mistakes along the way, yep. But as long as he is doing those 3 things he is our best option. And as shown on that final drive at Pitt, the team and coaches believe in him and he doesn't get fazed by the situation.

 

[ThePiombino]

Ree's has chemistry with Toma' I think he gets open quickly and they seem to be on the same page which helps Ree's confidence.

What games have you been watching that Toma has been at all visible?

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

What games have you been watching that Toma has been at all visible?

Last year when Theo was hurt.

 

[tadman95]

Okay. What'd I miss?


Just kidding. It's good thing we're not the committee that determines the QB. Our consensus would be all four start! Should we vote, Kelly could use the input.... LOL

We are a passionate bunch. Great thread!!

 

[ThePiombino]

Last year when Theo was hurt.

He definitely had a couple of decent games (Tulsa and Army I believe), but Tommy needs to focus on building chemistry with the starters since they're the ones getting time.

 

[IrishLax]

Okay. What'd I miss?


Just kidding. It's good thing we're not the committee that determines the QB. Our consensus would be all four start! Should we vote, Kelly could use the input.... LOL

We are a passionate bunch. Great thread!!

haha too true... and now for some perspective:

@mikefloyd3
Michael Floyd

People need to relax...Football is a game, not life

 

[Old Man Mike]

Bless you, big Mike

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

Entitlement? It is called teaching someone to be a leader. That doesn't mean have a ****** game and I bench you unless you are failing at one of these things (well there might be one or two more out there but I can't think of them right now) as a young leader learning on the job.
(and lets be honest Rees is learning on the job)

1. Learn from your mistakes (and no this doesn't mean he should magically stop throwing int's). If you see the safetey faking the blitz and then backing into coverage, and you misread it and throw a pick, learn from it and when you see the safety backing up next time don't throw the same pass.

2. Work harder and longer then everyone else. (in this case be the gymrat). Watch as much tape as possible, know the plays backwards and forwards.

3. Leadership. Mistakes happen, how does he respond. Does he keep his head up? Do the people following believe in him?

Here is the thing. I have no idea how good Crist is at 1 and 2. and I don't know how good Rees is at 1. I do know that Rees has been called a gymrat by Kelly multiple times so that tells me he passes number 2.

But the kicker is number 3. If you tivoed the USF game, watch Crist's body language as he walks off the field after some of the drives. He looks confused and/or lost. He looks like he doesn't have faith. Kelly had no choice but to pull him (and I wanted Crist to start the season but after seeing that I was completely fine with going to Rees). Rees has number 3in abundance. Does it mean that Rees will make some mistakes along the way, yep. But as long as he is doing those 3 things he is our best option. And as shown on that final drive at Pitt, the team and coaches believe in him and he doesn't get fazed by the situation.

I am utterly confused by this post. If you believe that the leader shouldn't be benched, why was Crist benched? Crist was learning on the job as well. Why wasn't he allowed to pick himself up? O I forget he is not a winner as numerous people in this forum believe. Then you imply that Crist does not have the same work habits as Rees. It is completely unsubstantiated; and considering what it takes to recover from the injuries that Crist came back from, absolutely uncalled for.

1. Learn from mistakes. Rees continues to eye Floyd. Rees continues to throw late. Did you not watch the Pittsburgh game? Did you not notice how many INTs were dropped by Pitt? Even in the gamewinning TD pass, he should have been picked off. Are you kidding me? I am extremely happy he got away with it but I am not going to sugarcoat his performance with the idiotic "he is a winner" thinking. Reality will eventually bite.

2. How do you know that Crist doesn't work just as hard? How can you even imply that Crist doesn't care?

3. Body language. It was first game of the season! Give the guy a break. He wasn't the only guy out there F'ing up. Where is the coach? What sage advice did Kelly offer Crist other than screaming at his face. Give the guy some support for crying out loud. Bench him a series and then put him back out there.

You cannot deny that Crist was held to a different set of standards.

 

[IrishLax]

NEW QUESTION

Would you rather have Denard or Tommy? I'm not sure. Discuss.

 

[pkt77242]

I am utterly confused by this post. If you believe that the leader shouldn't be benched, why was Crist benched? Crist was learning on the job as well. Why wasn't he allowed to pick himself up? O I forget he is not a winner as numerous people in this forum believe. Then you imply that Crist does not have the same work habits as Rees. It is completely unsubstantiated; and considering what it takes to recover from the injuries that Crist came back from, absolutely uncalled for.

1. Learn from mistakes. Rees continues to eye Floyd. Rees continues to throw late. Did you not watch the Pittsburgh game? Did you not notice how many INTs were dropped by Pitt? Even in the gamewinning TD pass, he should have been picked off. Are you kidding me? I am extremely happy he got away with it but I am not going to sugarcoat his performance with the idiotic "he is a winner" thinking. Reality will eventually bite.

2. How do you know that Crist doesn't work just as hard? How can you even imply that Crist doesn't care?

3. Body language. It was first game of the season! Give the guy a break. He wasn't the only guy out there F'ing up. Where is the coach? What sage advice did Kelly offer Crist other than screaming at his face. Give the guy some support for crying out loud. Bench him a series and then put him back out there.

You cannot deny that Crist was held to a different set of standards.

Did you read my post? I pointed out in my post that I didn't know how Crist was at numbers 1+2. I pointed out #3 as the reason I think he was benched, so hop of your high horse. Also I don't buy into the winner thing but I do buy into the fact that he doesn't hold onto his mistakes. He moves on and keeps his head up.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

NEW QUESTION

Would you rather have Denard or Tommy? I'm not sure. Discuss.

In Kelly's Spread? Sign me up for Denard. Kelly and Molnar would just implement D!ckRod's playbook, and with our current personnel, we'd be unstoppable.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

I am utterly confused by this post. If you believe that the leader shouldn't be benched, why was Crist benched? Crist was learning on the job as well. Why wasn't he allowed to pick himself up? O I forget he is not a winner as numerous people in this forum believe. Then you imply that Crist does not have the same work habits as Rees. It is completely unsubstantiated; and considering what it takes to recover from the injuries that Crist came back from, absolutely uncalled for.

1. Learn from mistakes. Rees continues to eye Floyd. Rees continues to throw late. Did you not watch the Pittsburgh game? Did you not notice how many INTs were dropped by Pitt? Even in the gamewinning TD pass, he should have been picked off. Are you kidding me? I am extremely happy he got away with it but I am not going to sugarcoat his performance with the idiotic "he is a winner" thinking. Reality will eventually bite.

2. How do you know that Crist doesn't work just as hard? How can you even imply that Crist doesn't care?

3. Body language. It was first game of the season! Give the guy a break. He wasn't the only guy out there F'ing up. Where is the coach? What sage advice did Kelly offer Crist other than screaming at his face. Give the guy some support for crying out loud. Bench him a series and then put him back out there.

You cannot deny that Crist was held to a different set of standards.

6-1, baby. You can write all the novels you want, but you can't argue the facts.

 

[NDPhilly]

NEW QUESTION

Would you rather have Denard or Tommy? I'm not sure. Discuss.

Easily Denard. We can talk all we want about how he isn't even a QB just a runner but he's effective.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

We can talk all we want about how he isn't even a QB just a runner but he's effective.

You don't have to be a good passer to hit a wide open receiver on play action.

Denard's 2010 passing stats: 182/ 291 for 2570 yards (62.5%) 8.83 YPA (75 long) 18:11 TD-INT ratio and 7 sacks for a QB rating of 149.6.

 

[jonesman]

Folks,
Unfortunately, we are stuck with Rees and until they litterally cart him off the field, BK is going to stick by him. I feel really bad for Crist. He was not given a fair chance at this season. He got one half to prove himself. He struggled some in that half, but the wheels had come off the entire team that day.

If Tommy was judged by first half performances, he would have been on the bench every game this season. Just this weekend, his first half was a large reason for ND losing at half. He throws an INT at the goal line. He fumbles. Last week for MSU, he throws an UGLY INT at the MSU game. Fumbles when getting sacked.

So, how fair is the evaluation when the Rees has made multiple first half mistakes. Sure, he has had some good 4th quarter performances. However, I will say that NEITHER of the UM or Pitt drives would have been necessary had Tommy not made MULTIPLE turnovers earlier in the game.

I will say that we have won several of the games he has started "INSPITE" of Tommy, not because of Tommy. There is NO way he should get credit for the USC game last year. He was horrible. At the Sun Bowl, he was the benefiicary of our defense getting multiple turnovers.

People want to blame Gary Gray for losing UM, why is Tommy not taking blame. He had two turnovers in the redzone. He had another key INT. That game should never have come down to one last second drive.

Here are the main reasons for my concerns: One, the turnovers are continuing at a high rate. They are also, bad turnovers, in the redzone many times.
Second, Kelly admitted yesterday we are having to dumb down the offense. We already have taken any run option out because Tommy is not mobile. If you think this would be the same with Crist, go watch some of his games from last year. He made some nice runs. Further, we have NO long pass game because Tommy lacks the strength, unless is just a toss up to Floyd.
Finally, we have likely seen the ceiling for Tommy. Due to his physical limitations, he will NEVER be a runner or down field passer.

The only improvement he can make is decision making. If there is ONE person here who can tell me that you see better decision making, your not being honest with yourself or any of us. I watched ESPN evaluate Tommy's throws and they stated he should have had 3 INT's on Saturday if Pitt players would have caught the balls. They even said that his TD to Eiffert was a BAD decision. I agree, go watch that pass.

So, my conclusion is that TOMMY will be responosible for losing ND one of the big three games of Air Force, USC or Navy. Those games cannot afford INT's and Tommy will dole them out. Mark my word, his penchant for TO's in the redzone will cost us big at one of these. Especially because the blueprint is there to stop him. Take Floyd out of the game with coverage.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

6-1, baby. You can write all the novels you want, but you can't argue the facts.

Winning is like being in love. It masks the ugly aspects in relationships. Eventually, those aspects will reveal themselves. Yes, Tommy is winning. I hope it continues; but if he continues to commit turnovers (which will inevitably lead to losses) and he isn't held accountable, I see ominous clouds for this very talented team.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Unfortunately, we are stuck with Rees and until they litterally cart him off the field, BK is going to stick by him. I feel really bad for Crist. He was not given a fair chance at this season. He got one half to prove himself. He struggled some in that half, but the wheels had come off the entire team that day.

Dayne didn't get benched because of circumstances beyond his control. He got benched because of how he responded to that adversity. He got picked off, and promptly started self-destructing. He got that infamous "deer in the headlights" look, and his body language was poisonous to the team's morale.

It's Dayne's lack of mental toughness that sent him to the bench. If you can't shrug off mistakes and lead your team through adversity, you can't be a Division I QB.

If Tommy was judged by first half performances, he would have been on the bench every game this season. Just this weekend, his first half was a large reason for ND losing at half. He throws an INT at the goal line. He fumbles. Last week for MSU, he throws an UGLY INT at the MSU game. Fumbles when getting sacked.

So, how fair is the evaluation when the Rees has made multiple first half mistakes. Sure, he has had some good 4th quarter performances. However, I will say that NEITHER of the UM or Pitt drives would have been necessary had Tommy not made MULTIPLE turnovers earlier in the game.

You're looking at this from the wrong angle. It's not about who would make fewer mistakes (Dayne probably would turn the ball over less frequently than Tommy.) It's about how they respond to those mistakes. Tommy makes a lot of mistakes, but he always comes storming back to lead a clutch drive. As soon as Dayne runs into adversity, it's game over.

I will say that we have won several of the games he has started "INSPITE" of Tommy, not because of Tommy. There is NO way he should get credit for the USC game last year. He was horrible. At the Sun Bowl, he was the benefiicary of our defense getting multiple turnovers.

I made the same arguments in the off-season about why Dayne should start over Tommy. I thought it was ridiculous to claim that Tommy's "it" factor somehow made everyone else play better. But it's true. The "it" is mental toughness, resiliency, leadership, etc. It's a sine qua non for college QBs, and Dayne simply doesn't have it.

People want to blame Gary Gray for losing UM, why is Tommy not taking blame. He had two turnovers in the redzone. He had another key INT. That game should never have come down to one last second drive.

Tommy put up huge numbers against UM, and he put us in an excellent position to win-- 30s left, 80 yards to go, and up by 4. You simply can't argue Tommy lost that game for us.

Finally, we have likely seen the ceiling for Tommy. Due to his physical limitations, he will NEVER be a runner or down field passer.

Tommy's lack of arm-strength is overblown. He can hit receivers at 35-40 yards.

The only improvement he can make is decision making. If there is ONE person here who can tell me that you see better decision making, your not being honest with yourself or any of us. I watched ESPN evaluate Tommy's throws and they stated he should have had 3 INT's on Saturday if Pitt players would have caught the balls. They even said that his TD to Eiffert was a BAD decision. I agree, go watch that pass.

Tommy doesn't need to make huge strides for us to win out. He simply needs to (1) improve his ball security, and (2) improve his ability to find the 1-on-1 matchups. Those are both very coachable qualities, especially for a coach's son whom Kelly describes as a film-room "gym rat".

So, my conclusion is that TOMMY will be responosible for losing ND one of the big three games of Air Force, USC or Navy. Those games cannot afford INT's and Tommy will dole them out. Mark my word, his penchant for TO's in the redzone will cost us big at one of these. Especially because the blueprint is there to stop him. Take Floyd out of the game with coverage.

The blue-print was already there after the USC game. Other teams have used double and triple coverage on Floyd before too.

Pitt brought out some exotic DB blitzes that they hadn't used against Buffalo, Maine, or Iowa, and Rees wasn't prepared for them. Props to Pitt for putting together a good defensive scheme.

You really need to back away from the edge here. Rees will do well against both Purdue and AF. Let's hope his ball security and coverage recognition has improved enough by the time USC rolls into town.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

Winning is like being in love. It masks the ugly aspects in relationships. Eventually, those aspects will reveal themselves. Yes, Tommy is winning. I hope it continues; but if he continues to commit turnovers (which will inevitably lead to losses) and he isn't held accountable, I see ominous clouds for this very talented team.

I FREAKING LOVE WINNING... 6-1 Is better than 4-5 last time I checked. Go Tommy, Go.

 

[jonesman]

ND Fighting Irish,
Finally, someone not just staring at a record of 6-1. In my mind, Tommy should be responsible for the loss at Tulsa last season too.

Several of those 6 wins happened inspite of Tommy. If there is one person in here giving him credit for USC, your drunk. He tried his best to give the Trojans that game. We won with Defense and the legs of Hughes. Harrison Smith won the Sun Bowl for Tommy.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

ND Fighting Irish,
Finally, someone not just staring at a record of 6-1. In my mind, Tommy should be responsible for the loss at Tulsa last season too.

Several of those 6 wins happened inspite of Tommy. If there is one person in here giving him credit for USC, your drunk. He tried his best to give the Trojans that game. We won with Defense and the legs of Hughes. Harrison Smith won the Sun Bowl for Tommy.

Fact: 6-1

You're in denial. Face facts.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

ND Fighting Irish,
Finally, someone not just staring at a record of 6-1. In my mind, Tommy should be responsible for the loss at Tulsa last season too.

Several of those 6 wins happened inspite of Tommy. If there is one person in here giving him credit for USC, your drunk. He tried his best to give the Trojans that game. We won with Defense and the legs of Hughes. Harrison Smith won the Sun Bowl for Tommy.

You're reaching, pal. Dayne is like the sexy cheerleader with a knocked out body (physically gifted), but when you try to teach her how to read, she fails miserably. (Dayne doesn't understand the offense, and can't perform during the game. He mentally breaks, and can't rise above adversity. Do you really think Dayne would be that more effective? He may protect the ball better, but he also won't score as many points. Could you see Dayne shaking off a game like Tommy had, and going 8-8 for the win?

Tommy is not the long term answer, but he is the 2011 answer.

I think, more so then Tommy, penalties will doom us against USC and Stanford. Mental mistakes have to be corrected.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think, more so then Tommy, penalties will doom us against USC and Stanford. Mental mistakes have to be corrected.

Those are relatively easy to correct. ND was a very disciplined unit last year. The penalties and TOs will subside soon.

And while we're talking about USC, they had more than their fair share of penalties and TOs against ASU.

 

[pkt77242]

ND Fighting Irish,
Finally, someone not just staring at a record of 6-1. In my mind, Tommy should be responsible for the loss at Tulsa last season too.

Several of those 6 wins happened inspite of Tommy. If there is one person in here giving him credit for USC, your drunk. He tried his best to give the Trojans that game. We won with Defense and the legs of Hughes. Harrison Smith won the Sun Bowl for Tommy.

Go look at Rees stats from Miami again, then come back and talk. 15/29 201 yards 2 ads 0 int. Give me that statline anyday.

 

[jonesman]

Dayne didn't get benched because of circumstances beyond his control. He got benched because of how he responded to that adversity. He got picked off, and promptly started self-destructing. He got that infamous "deer in the headlights" look, and his body language was poisonous to the team's morale.

It's Dayne's lack of mental toughness that sent him to the bench. If you can't shrug off mistakes and lead your team through adversity, you can't be a Division I QB.
So you are telling me that one half going 7 for 15 with ONE interception is enough to determine all this. Especially when the RB fumbles on the goalline, the fumble on a punt return. If this is the case, Tommy should have been yanked on Saturday. He looked like crap against the 110th ranked pass defense. He fumbled, threw an INT and should have had a pick 6 INT also.



You're looking at this from the wrong angle. It's not about who would make fewer mistakes (Dayne probably would turn the ball over less frequently than Tommy.) It's about how they respond to those mistakes. Tommy makes a lot of mistakes, but he always comes storming back to lead a clutch drive. As soon as Dayne runs into adversity, it's game over.
[I]Not only did Dayne turn it over less, he gave us a running option. Further, we would not have to come storming back if Tommy did not throw INT's like they were Christmas presents.[/I]

I made the same arguments in the off-season about why Dayne should start over Tommy. I thought it was ridiculous to claim that Tommy's "it" factor somehow made everyone else play better. But it's true. The "it" is mental toughness, resiliency, leadership, etc. It's a sine qua non for college QBs, and Dayne simply doesn't have it.



Tommy put up huge numbers against UM, and he put us in an excellent position to win-- 30s left, 80 yards to go, and up by 4. You simply can't argue Tommy lost that game for us.
Yes, Tommy did put up huge numbers at UM. TWO HUGE redzone turnovers. Another INT during a critical drive. That 80 yard drive is not necessary if he eliminates even one of those turnovers.

Tommy's lack of arm-strength is overblown. He can hit receivers at 35-40 yards.
You are right, Tommy can heave up an occassional jump ball to Floyd. It will not happen very often.

Tommy doesn't need to make huge strides for us to win out. He simply needs to (1) improve his ball security, and (2) improve his ability to find the 1-on-1 matchups. Those are both very coachable qualities, especially for a coach's son whom Kelly describes as a film-room "gym rat".
If Tommy is such a gym rat on films, that Kelly admitted yesterday that we are dumbing down the offense. That is great to hear for a BCS caliber team.

The blue-print was already there after the USC game. Other teams have used double and triple coverage on Floyd before too.
We will see some more of this blueprint this week. Don't be suprised if weak Purdue causes him to make his madeningly dumb throws again.
Pitt brought out some exotic DB blitzes that they hadn't used against Buffalo, Maine, or Iowa, and Rees wasn't prepared for them. Props to Pitt for putting together a good defensive scheme.

You really need to back away from the edge here. Rees will do well against both Purdue and AF. Let's hope his ball security and coverage recognition has improved enough by the time USC rolls into town.

I am away from the edge, just concerned that our coach is stuck on a guy will limited ceiling.

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

I am away from the edge, just concerned that our coach is stuck on a guy will limited ceiling.

agreed.

 

[IrishBoy]

I agree. With the way Tommy is playing, it won't be much easier when they play Air Force, USC, Navy (yes Navy lost to South Carolina by 3 points), maybe Wake Forest and Stanford.

We need to give Crist a chance to play. I feel Kelly treating Crist like he's being punished for his poor performance in the first half of the game against South Florida. Tommy played terrible than Crist and Tommy is still playing. Something is wrong. If Notre Dame lose few more games and Tommy play terrible as predicted then Kelly will have a lot of explaining to do.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I am away from the edge, just concerned that our coach is stuck on a guy will limited ceiling.

I understand the concern, but no one has more at stake in this issue than Kelly. If that's truly the problem here-- that Kelly is unreasonably determined to keep playing Rees when Dayne is truly a better option-- then our program is destined for failure under this coach.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

I agree. With the way Tommy is playing, it won't be much easier when they play Air Force, USC, Navy (yes Navy lost to South Carolina by 3 points), maybe Wake Forest and Stanford.

We need to give Crist a chance to play. I feel Kelly treating Crist like he's being punished for his poor performance in the first half of the game against South Florida. Tommy played terrible than Crist and Tommy is still playing. Something is wrong. If Notre Dame lose few more games and Tommy play terrible as predicted then Kelly will have a lot of explaining to do.

What the hell has Crist ever done to make you think he is better then Rees? And no, high school rankings from 2008 don't count.

Tommy has been terrible? lol you're reaching or clueless