COVID-19

[Circa]

So... who thinks Dr. Fauci Is wrong now?
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[Polish Leppy 22]

I thought this would end up being a political statement - "some people", Govs of Dem states only, media ignoring, the boobs in Mich and Pa, etc.

You are incorrect that there was not a playbook. It's been in place for fifteen years. Numerous posters have linked it with federal appropriations for executive branches including the Defense Dept and states to develop plans and actions for a pandemic.

When you say that people "got it wrong two months ago", you are saying that we should all have kept sites where the virus could spead more easily, infected more people, increased our death totals, overwhelmed more hospitals, and led to a worse shutdown as everyone sheltered in place in fear of spreading it to themselves and their families. "Less harm than good"?

You are correct that there has been a worsening of "mental health, suicide, depression, substance abuse, physical abuse". Are you really saying that we should not followed mitigation advice to keep those conditions under control?

If you wish to deny the science behind mitigation measures and the preparation for a pandemic and believe it is political, take a Rep Gov like DeWine in Ohio, who issued stay-at-home orders on March 22.

Ohio Gov. DeWine is latest Republican to say wearing a mask isn't about politics
(May 25)



Gov. Mike DeWine takes stand against 'disrespectful' protesters
'Demonstrate against me, that's certainly fair game' (May4)



I'm sure Ohio with all this problems and especially with the opioid additions is suffering as well as economically.

This is about the science. Most of us are ready to move back carefully and responsibly into a new normal. There's a Political Thread though to discuss the politics.

State governors had no playbook for this. It's OK to get it wrong the first time and correct it/ change plans. Not everyone is doing that.

I didn't say anything about masks. You brought that up from left field. Many of us went from two weeks shelter in place to flatten the curve to everyone stay home until we have a vaccine.

The science tells us young and healthy people aren't at much risk here. The elderly and those with weak immune systems are.

The science tells us that the current deal toll from this in the US is .030% and it has cost 38 million Americans their jobs.

I'm not sitting here playing Monday Morning QB because we knew so little about the virus when it started. Now we have ALL this data and science, yet some citizens are still being told to stay home. It's asinine.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

To mitigate the stresses on the people, would you be for increased funding towards health care, and other job security measures? This is a pretty progressive approach you seem to be hinting at. Or, alternatively, it's every person for themselves and the corporations can skirt any liability?

In public I think it's up to each citizen to make his/ her decision based on their situation. If you feel you aren't at risk and want to spend the weekend on the beach, go for it. If you're uncomfortable and want to stay home, no one is forcing you to go out.

Most companies in the US will do anything they must to have PPE, hand washing stations, gloves, etc. in place for their employees.

The biggest question mark is the restaurant industry, in terms of their capacity when they open and how to bring people back to work safely. Wal Mart and Target seem to be diong something right...

 

[TorontoGold]

In public I think it's up to each citizen to make his/ her decision based on their situation. If you feel you aren't at risk and want to spend the weekend on the beach, go for it. If you're uncomfortable and want to stay home, no one is forcing you to go out.

Most companies in the US will do anything they must to have PPE, hand washing stations, gloves, etc. in place for their employees.

The biggest question mark is the restaurant industry, in terms of their capacity when they open and how to bring people back to work safely. Wal Mart and Target seem to be diong something right...

I think in a perfect world that works just fine, but not everyone can work 6FT+ away from their coworkers. You're picking up whatever they got during their weekend.

I know I see a lot of people that let their kids meet up with their friends, and then go home. Which is completely asinine, I think we all know they're little petri dishes.

 

[Legacy93]

I think in a perfect world that works just fine, but not everyone can work 6FT+ away from their coworkers. You're picking up whatever they got during their weekend.

I know I see a lot of people that let their kids meet up with their friends, and then go home. Which is completely asinine, I think we all know they're little petri dishes.

I think your point is valid, but that fact was true pre-COVID and will continue to be true post-COVID. Every time you encounter another person, there is a risk of them infecting you with COVID or something else - obviously some diseases are more / less infectious than others, but this isn't the first communicable disease, nor will it be the last.

That's why there is an argument to isolate groups most at risk and try to get the remainder of the population to herd immunity quickly - so transmission to the most vulnerable is minimized.

 

[irishff1014]

So... who thinks Dr. Fauci Is wrong now?
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He is a moron. Everyday he is saying something different. He needs to be home sitting on his couch.

 

[TorontoGold]

I think your point is valid, but that fact was true pre-COVID and will continue to be true post-COVID. Every time you encounter another person, there is a risk of them infecting you with COVID or something else - obviously some diseases are more / less infectious than others, but this isn't the first communicable disease, nor will it be the last.

That's why there is an argument to isolate groups most at risk and try to get the remainder of the population to herd immunity quickly - so transmission to the most vulnerable is minimized.

Yup, I agree. I think there needs to be a good safety net for those that are most at risk for this. However, I think a lot of people will claim its socialism.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

COVID-19

Politics have already ruined any chance of us moving past this with dignity. Its caused too many of the fringe lunatics to double down on being either a completely submissive pussy, or a completely flippant a$$hole, and the problem is, both sides are right, just about different things.

And that brings us to the irony of people who have fancied themselves THE RESISTANCE, sitting at home and sucking their thumbs right now when presented with a true opportunity to do their only job, and ALL LIVES MATTER people crapping on all forms of authority that keep the country running safely after spending a few years worshipping them as false idols.


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[Legacy]

With unemployment at almost 15% and the unemployed exceeding 36 million, many not only lost their insurance but are becoming homeless. Cities are bracing for the impacts (Google it). The head of the Economic Council for Trump expects unemployment rate to increase to 20%. An economist projects an increase in homelessness of 40-45%. Last year the number of homeless was 800k with 250,000 more people in the US would experience homelessness. Cities have gone from trying to eliminate homeless camps to encouraging them. Homeless shelters generally isolate male/female and children. With the pandemic, temperatures are taken, symptoms recorded, and increased concern for this vulnerable population housed in relatively close quarters. In Houston, 77 of the 183 additional people who had tested positive for the virus lived in homeless shelters. In Austin’s downtown Salvation Army homeless shelter closed in mid-April after 12 people there tested positive, resulting in all 187 residents being moved to a hotel leased by the city of Austin.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ Current Population Survey, about 78 percent of all unemployed Americans in April were classified as being “on temporary layoff”. That group also made up 88 percent of those who lost or completed jobs (as opposed to voluntarily leaving jobs or reentering the ranks of the unemployed). That supports the idea that the vast majority of jobs that have been lost to COVID-19 could eventually return. However, businesses that rely on disposable income from consumers, travel or the service industry may take some time to recover, limiting the number of employees who would be hired back.

Services for the homeless and capacities vary by city - overnight places to stay, healthcare, day use, social services, a meal a day, etc. The expected flood of homeless would include the first-time homeless, including families.

The CARES Act placed a moratorium on evictions with protections only apply to “covered dwellings,” which are rental units in properties: (1) that participate in federal assistance programs, (2) are subject to a “federally backed mortgage loan,” or (3) are subject to a “federally backed multifamily mortgage loan” for 120 days starting March 27. So we are two months in. After that...

As may have been mentioned, businesses with less 500 employees can borrowers through the Payroll Protection Program and who laid off workers can reinstate their jobs and salaries by June 30 to recover credit toward loan forgiveness. Those who are recently homeless due to job loss present an added problem to be contacted by these employers.

 

[RDU Irish]

You mean diseases spread in craphole living environments? Who'd a thunk it!

Saw a stat that was believable - kids are more likely to get struck by lightning than die of Wuhan Flu. Below 65 with no co-morbidities more likely to die in a car crash. Risk is a part of life folks - at least in a free society.

Was looking at hitting Universal Studios on the reopen but only Frontier has direct flights so can't use my AA or UAL credits. 8 hour drive a bit much for a long weekend.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Interesting numbers, keep in mind that New York's low percentage is because Cuomo decided to not count a death as a nursing home death if the nursing home resident died at the hospital. I don't know of any other state that is doing that, but who knows.

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/Avik/status/1265244659439329281[/TWEET]

 

[Irishize]

With unemployment at almost 15% and the unemployed exceeding 36 million, many not only lost their insurance but are becoming homeless. Cities are bracing for the impacts (Google it). The head of the Economic Council for Trump expects unemployment rate to increase to 20%. An economist projects an increase in homelessness of 40-45%. Last year the number of homeless was 800k with 250,000 more people in the US would experience homelessness. Cities have gone from trying to eliminate homeless camps to encouraging them. Homeless shelters generally isolate male/female and children. With the pandemic, temperatures are taken, symptoms recorded, and increased concern for this vulnerable population housed in relatively close quarters. In Houston, 77 of the 183 additional people who had tested positive for the virus lived in homeless shelters. In Austin’s downtown Salvation Army homeless shelter closed in mid-April after 12 people there tested positive, resulting in all 187 residents being moved to a hotel leased by the city of Austin.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ Current Population Survey, about 78 percent of all unemployed Americans in April were classified as being “on temporary layoff”. That group also made up 88 percent of those who lost or completed jobs (as opposed to voluntarily leaving jobs or reentering the ranks of the unemployed). That supports the idea that the vast majority of jobs that have been lost to COVID-19 could eventually return. However, businesses that rely on disposable income from consumers, travel or the service industry may take some time to recover, limiting the number of employees who would be hired back.

Services for the homeless and capacities vary by city - overnight places to stay, healthcare, day use, social services, a meal a day, etc. The expected flood of homeless would include the first-time homeless, including families.

The CARES Act placed a moratorium on evictions with protections only apply to “covered dwellings,” which are rental units in properties: (1) that participate in federal assistance programs, (2) are subject to a “federally backed mortgage loan,” or (3) are subject to a “federally backed multifamily mortgage loan” for 120 days starting March 27. So we are two months in. After that...

As may have been mentioned, businesses with less 500 employees can borrowers through the Payroll Protection Program and who laid off workers can reinstate their jobs and salaries by June 30 to recover credit toward loan forgiveness. Those who are recently homeless due to job loss present an added problem to be contacted by these employers.

Two projections that have been spot on from the beginning of the pandemic were:

1) Elderly were the most “at risk”

2) Collapsing our economy will throw us into record unemployment.

I can’t think of any other that have been consistently as correct as those two.

 

[Irishize]

You mean diseases spread in craphole living environments? Who'd a thunk it!

Saw a stat that was believable - kids are more likely to get struck by lightning than die of Wuhan Flu. Below 65 with no co-morbidities more likely to die in a car crash. Risk is a part of life folks - at least in a free society.

Was looking at hitting Universal Studios on the reopen but only Frontier has direct flights so can't use my AA or UAL credits. 8 hour drive a bit much for a long weekend.

Yeah, I feel bad for folks who lost loved ones to disease/suicide/accident/murder (non-COVID related). It’s like their loss didn’t measure up to the folks who sadly contracted COVID_19 and passed away.

 

[Valpodoc85]

Mandatory Mask or Not?
One of the beautiful side effects of our considered discussion is thoughtful counter-points. I posted a un-intended strawman (Masks Don't Work: A review of science relevant to COVID-19). It underlines the mis-understanding of Safety Engineering; hazard control. It's plainly evident that a mask would help contain one's blunderbuss sneezes, but does that benefit offset the real hazard?

Most people wearing a mask have NO fucking clue how to use it. Smearing monkey shit all over their faces, scratching, adjusting, pulling aside to talk, putting it away, putting it back on, going around spittle barriers because they are protected by the virtue signal of sandwich artist gloves and a mask yanked down to allow them to be clearly herd. You need training and diligence to use a mask effectively. Without training even the best mask is little more than kabuki. Filthy gloves are even worse. Safety Engineering principals dictate that reliance on behavior modification (training) is the LEAST EFFECTIVE hazard control.

I ask you this sincerely: Do gladiator-like football helmets reduce chance of brain injury or do they embolden players to use their heads like a battering ram?

Maybe, just maybe, a little of both?

This from AVe on You Tube.....

 

[notredomer23]

Anyone know how many of Singapore's cases were asymptomatic? Saw they only had 23 deaths as a result of COVID but over 32K cases. I know most of those that have gotten it are mostly young migrant workers.

 

[yankeehater]

Yeah, I feel bad for folks who lost loved ones to disease/suicide/accident/murder (non-COVID related). It’s like their loss didn’t measure up to the folks who sadly contracted COVID_19 and passed away.

The CDC came out with data to little to no media attention over the holiday weekend about how low the mortality rate is for the virus. Over half the deaths in the world were over the age of 80 or 85. Yes, it sucks for the family members and I personally know of four people who lost loved ones, but once that age group is removed the mortality rate is less than the flu. So we locked down the world and stopped those who would see little to no morbidity from working and still were unable to protect the most vulnerable. As was posted, most of the deaths were not only of the elderly, but those in facilities. Also they are now coming out with world poverty projections from the lockdown that are mind blowing. That effect is supposed to linger for more than a decade.

https://www.conservativereview.com/...-remarkably-low-coronavirus-death-rate-media/

 

[yankeehater]

Mandatory Mask or Not?
One of the beautiful side effects of our considered discussion is thoughtful counter-points. I posted a un-intended strawman (Masks Don't Work: A review of science relevant to COVID-19). It underlines the mis-understanding of Safety Engineering; hazard control. It's plainly evident that a mask would help contain one's blunderbuss sneezes, but does that benefit offset the real hazard?

Most people wearing a mask have NO fucking clue how to use it. Smearing monkey shit all over their faces, scratching, adjusting, pulling aside to talk, putting it away, putting it back on, going around spittle barriers because they are protected by the virtue signal of sandwich artist gloves and a mask yanked down to allow them to be clearly herd. You need training and diligence to use a mask effectively. Without training even the best mask is little more than kabuki. Filthy gloves are even worse. Safety Engineering principals dictate that reliance on behavior modification (training) is the LEAST EFFECTIVE hazard control.

I ask you this sincerely: Do gladiator-like football helmets reduce chance of brain injury or do they embolden players to use their heads like a battering ram?

Maybe, just maybe, a little of both?

This from AVe on You Tube.....

I was with my brother in law over the weekend and he works in medicine at one of the major UC Hospitals in CA. He was not ever wearing a mask around us nor did he expect it from us. He also commented about what you said as to the lack of proper wearing or handling of the PPE's from the general public. Also said the use of one while outside unless you are going to stand face to face for an extended period is not sensible or really doing anything to control the spread.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Sweden did not shut down and their death rate is the same as ours. But they're much healthier overall.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I think in a perfect world that works just fine, but not everyone can work 6FT+ away from their coworkers. You're picking up whatever they got during their weekend.

I know I see a lot of people that let their kids meet up with their friends, and then go home. Which is completely asinine, I think we all know they're little petri dishes.

So we're all stuck at home and tank the economy until we find a vaccine? No deal. And again, if you're under 65 with no other health issues this thing isn't going to kill you. Many of us in our 20s and 30s had the damn thing and didn't know.

 

[Irishize]

Sweden did not shut down and their death rate is the same as ours. But they're much healthier overall.

Not dismissing these deaths but the mean age of 82 really jumps out. Crazy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Sweden

A large majority (93%) of the deaths belonged to at least one risk group, with chronic cardiovascular disease being the most prevalent (53%), followed by diabetes (26%), chronic respiratory disease (18%) and chronic renal failure (16%).[272] More than half of the deaths have been in Stockholm County.[273] As of early May, the mean age among those who had died with confirmed COVID-19 disease were 82,[3] and the majority (54%) of those who had died with the disease were men.[274]

 

[TorontoGold]

So we're all stuck at home and tank the economy until we find a vaccine? No deal. And again, if you're under 65 with no other health issues this thing isn't going to kill you. Many of us in our 20s and 30s had the damn thing and didn't know.

Nope, not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there needs to be a safety net available for the people who face a greater risk of contracting COVID. If your job is a people facing job or something to that effect, and you get COVID you shouldn't face financial ruin for it.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Anyone know how many of Singapore's cases were asymptomatic? Saw they only had 23 deaths as a result of COVID but over 32K cases. I know most of those that have gotten it are mostly young migrant workers.

The vast majority are/were the migrant workers as you highlighted. The testing here is insane. Example, they are getting ready to open part of the schools and are having every teacher and employee tested. When they found out that the virus was swirling in the migrant dorms, they swooped in and tested everyone. When there were clusters found elsewhere, they used contract tracing (some of the best in the world, as it should be considering their oversight) to test everyone that may have been in contact (may vs. confirmed). My boss had a cough he couldn't explain (no fever, no fatigue or any other system) and they tested him 5 times over 10 days, just to give you an example of the depth of testing done.

So to answer your question, yes, the vast majority are asymptomatic. But I also believe that is because they are doing more robust testing, so the confirmed cases are, comparatively speaking to other countries, higher.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Not dismissing these deaths but the mean age of 82 really jumps out. Crazy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Sweden

A large majority (93%) of the deaths belonged to at least one risk group, with chronic cardiovascular disease being the most prevalent (53%), followed by diabetes (26%), chronic respiratory disease (18%) and chronic renal failure (16%).[272] More than half of the deaths have been in Stockholm County.[273] As of early May, the mean age among those who had died with confirmed COVID-19 disease were 82,[3] and the majority (54%) of those who had died with the disease were men.[274]

I've read that 50% of their deaths are from Nursing Homes with another 25% receiving "at home care".

Sweden waited until April 1st to place restrictions on visiting nursing homes. That certainly didn't help things.

 

[ARALOU]

The numbers seem mighty small and insignificant, unless it hits you or yours.

 

[pkt77242]

So we're all stuck at home and tank the economy until we find a vaccine? No deal. And again, if you're under 65 with no other health issues this thing isn't going to kill you. Many of us in our 20s and 30s had the damn thing and didn't know.

Really? What is many? Even in the New York which was the hardest hit state, the max is about 20%. Many other states are in the single digits. Hard to call that many...

 

[pkt77242]

In public I think it's up to each citizen to make his/ her decision based on their situation. If you feel you aren't at risk and want to spend the weekend on the beach, go for it. If you're uncomfortable and want to stay home, no one is forcing you to go out.

Most companies in the US will do anything they must to have PPE, hand washing stations, gloves, etc. in place for their employees.

The biggest question mark is the restaurant industry, in terms of their capacity when they open and how to bring people back to work safely. Wal Mart and Target seem to be diong something right...

Is it? Your decisions don’t just harm you they could harm everyone around you. Great you want to go to the beach. Your decision might be yours but if you infect your coworkers your actions harm much more than you. What if you require a ventilator and are now a burden on the healthcare system. Maybe you are taking a ventilator that could have gone to someone who followed all the rules. Someone who got it from a jackass worker who went to the beach and spread it.

 

[pkt77242]

This thread boggles my mind. We are closing in on 100K deaths. If we didn’t shut down the economy we would be a couple hundred thousand higher. What is the acceptable amount of death? If our President has treated it as anything other than a hoax, and instead ramped up our response. Maybe we could have avoided a shutdown. If we had better contact tracing and testing (thanks CDC) maybe we could have avoided a shutdown. If Americans could fucking put on a mask and follow rules, maybe we could have had a shorter shutdown.

 

[pkt77242]

If we hadn’t shut down our economy, our death rate would be even higher. You have to flatten the curve. If not many people that could have been saved (or were saved) would have died due to lack of beds, equipment and qualified practitioners. This is not rocket science. Yes there is collateral damage in the form of mental health and loss of wages. There is always a sacrifice to be made, sometimes the lesser of 2 evils has to be chosen.

 

[pkt77242]

You mean diseases spread in craphole living environments? Who'd a thunk it!

Saw a stat that was believable - kids are more likely to get struck by lightning than die of Wuhan Flu. Below 65 with no co-morbidities more likely to die in a car crash. Risk is a part of life folks - at least in a free society.

Was looking at hitting Universal Studios on the reopen but only Frontier has direct flights so can't use my AA or UAL credits. 8 hour drive a bit much for a long weekend.

You do realize that a large portion of the US population that is under 65 have comorbidities, right? Hypertension, diabetes and obesity or rampant in the US. That doesn’t even get into issues such as hear disease, breathing issues (asthma, etc.) and immuno compromised individuals. I bet about half if not more of adults 35-64 have some form of comorbidity.

 

[Irishize]

The numbers seem mighty small and insignificant, unless it hits you or yours.

Like other viruses, disease, murder rate, suicide rate & auto accidents, etc. Yes, I agree w/ you...small & insignificant until it personally affects you. I saw plenty of pics over Memorial Day of widows & children lying at their dad’s tombstone or accepting a folded American flag on behalf of their father. None of them died from COVID-19 but that doesn’t lessen their deaths either.