Coaching Carousel 2019

[Free Manera]

Then give me other specific examples where we missed on a recruit because of Kelly’s lack of recruiting? Details?

Edit: I also find it funny that you didn’t come back to address your completely reckless use of hyperbole. Less than any top coach in America, haha.

Reposting this from the Revisited thread because it is relevant to this discussion:

On the Shamrock podcast today, Sampson spent about 15 minutes talking about the Karels SBT story. In summary:

1. Great reporting by Karels

2. It is probably true that if Kelly was involved, one of the 2 recruits from the story (I forget which) would have had a lot of interest in ND.

3. Basically from the beginning, Kelly has not been as involved in recruiting as he could/should be. Everyone knows it and has known it for a long time. This comes from many previous members of his staff.
It's kind of a mystery.

4. Kelly is a great recruiter when he wants to be.

5. There have been times where he was a great recruiter, when it was a necessity due to coaches leaving or some other circumstance. He cited the linebacker class in '13 headlined by Nyles Morgan as one that Kelly was very involved in.

6. Sampson wonders if Kelly's comments about improving recruiting were mostly to do with Kelly deciding to do more recruiting.

 

[Luckylucci]

I don't see any specific examples? Again, there is certainly truth to this, no one is disputing this. But, how much? And, what has the impact been? Which in reality is the most important part. Can anybody quantify that by any real measure other than saying, better?

It's all a narrative based on things people have been told by a couple recruits this cycle and some past employees. Cooks is a past employee who's been bad mouthing the ND program since he left to recruits. Is he one of the sources? Would he be a unbias source on the matter? There is always some truth and then there is always a group that runs with that truth to extreme conclusions.

 

[NDohio]

Reposting this from the Revisited thread because it is relevant to this discussion:

On the Shamrock podcast today, Sampson spent about 15 minutes talking about the Karels SBT story. In summary:

1. Great reporting by Karels

2. It is probably true that if Kelly was involved, one of the 2 recruits from the story (I forget which) would have had a lot of interest in ND.

3. Basically from the beginning, Kelly has not been as involved in recruiting as he could/should be. Everyone knows it and has known it for a long time. This comes from many previous members of his staff.
It's kind of a mystery.

4. Kelly is a great recruiter when he wants to be.

5. There have been times where he was a great recruiter, when it was a necessity due to coaches leaving or some other circumstance. He cited the linebacker class in '13 headlined by Nyles Morgan as one that Kelly was very involved in.

6. Sampson wonders if Kelly's comments about improving recruiting were mostly to do with Kelly deciding to do more recruiting.

On the flip side, Tim O'Malley told a story about a highly rated recruit that came to ND and was very successful. He stated that he loved how BK recruited him because of the fact that he didn't hound him.

Tim also talked about a recruit having to tell a coach to back down, he was driving him crazy.

Could BK be a bit better in this department? Probably. Is it as big of an issue as this article is making it out to be? Probably not.

As an aside, Pete Sampson has really changed since going to The Athletic - and not for the better...

 

[pumpdog20]

On the flip side, Tim O'Malley told a story about a highly rated recruit that came to ND and was very successful. He stated that he loved how BK recruited him because of the fact that he didn't hound him.

Tim also talked about a recruit having to tell a coach to back down, he was driving him crazy.

Could BK be a bit better in this department? Probably. Is it as big of an issue as this article is making it out to be? Probably not.

As an aside, Pete Sampson has really changed since going to The Athletic - and not for the better...

Yeah, Sampson seems to have less reliable sources than Driskel.

 

[NDisme]

Then give me other specific examples where we missed on a recruit because of Kelly’s lack of recruiting? Details?

Edit: I also find it funny that you didn’t come back to address your completely reckless use of hyperbole. Less than any top coach in America, haha.

Yes I used a hyperbole, which the definition is exaggerated statement not to be taken seriously. I wouldn’t expect any of the guys that cover ND to give specific examples unless they are already out there, why would they? At ND you need someone that has to go above and beyond in recruiting and the fact that this narrative is out there regardless of whether its to an extreme measure or not is not a good look. So yea I think it’s a problem, we will continue to have 10-15 rated class and our best win each year will be navy.

 

[Luckylucci]

Yes I used a hyperbole, which the definition is exaggerated statement not to be taken seriously. I wouldn’t expect any of the guys that cover ND to give specific examples unless they are already out there, why would they? At ND you need someone that has to go above and beyond in recruiting and the fact that this narrative is out there regardless of whether its to an extreme measure or not is not a good look. So yea I think it’s a problem, we will continue to have 10-15 rated class and our best win each year will be navy.

And the only reason we have a 10-15 class is because of numbers not recruiting acumen. For someone that is so up in arms about this, you should probably be aware of that. We literally told no to multiple prospects because of numbers. If we ran the same program and didn't give a crap about transfers and pushing players out, this would've been a 6-8 ranking, EASILY.

 

[Free Manera]

And the only reason we have a 10-15 class is because of numbers not recruiting acumen. For someone that is so up in arms about this, you should probably be aware of that. We literally told no to multiple prospects because of numbers. If we ran the same program and didn't give a crap about transfers and pushing players out, this would've been a 6-8 ranking, EASILY.

Replace some of the 3* numbers with 4 and 5 * numbers. I don’t really understand what numbers has to do with it.

 

[Luckylucci]

Replace some of the 3* numbers with 4 and 5 * numbers. I don’t really understand what numbers has to do with it.

No, quantity, number of players in the class. We have a class of 18. Michigan who is in front of us has 27. If you run a class calculator on guys that literally tried to commit to ND and we made space for them. We'd be in the 6-8 range when all is said and done. And that's only with 21-22 commits. There is laundry list of highly likely guys we could've got that'd push the class to 24-25 like the football factories do.

 

[Irishize]

It's not like they have a killer class but hopefully Baylor let's those kids out of their LOI's.

They should but how many landing spots are legitimately remaining? If Baylor signed 20-25 kids that means there has to be 20-25 programs out there w/ mutual interest that still have room. Then you figure Mississippi St’s signing class is in the same boat. It’s not an easy problem to solve.

 

[Irishize]

Carolina to hire Rhule. First reported he was going to the Giants. Wonder who Baylor hies?

According to George Schroeder, Baylor has $6-6.5 million per year to spend on a splash hire if they want to go that route. By splash hire, I mean a current P5 HC who may see Baylor as a better long-term scenario.

 

[NDisme]

And the only reason we have a 10-15 class is because of numbers not recruiting acumen. For someone that is so up in arms about this, you should probably be aware of that. We literally told no to multiple prospects because of numbers. If we ran the same program and didn't give a crap about transfers and pushing players out, this would've been a 6-8 ranking, EASILY.

That’s the only reason? In Kelly’s Tenure at ND the only reason is numbers? That’s definitely not correct. This year possibly but say for arguments sake if Kelly was more involved we get a ransom and McMillan (not saying 100% we would) but our class would be around the 7 range, well regardless of numbers those guys were both Takes, so was Clark Philips which was another example of Kelly not being involved enough. So no I can’t agree that the only reason we are 10-15 is because of numbers every year.

 

[Luckylucci]

That’s the only reason? In Kelly’s Tenure at ND the only reason is numbers? That’s definitely not correct. This year possibly but say for arguments sake if Kelly was more involved we get a ransom and McMillan (not saying 100% we would) but our class would be around the 7 range, well regardless of numbers those guys were both Takes, so was Clark Philips which was another example of Kelly not being involved enough. So no I can’t agree that the only reason we are 10-15 is because of numbers every year.

It's the most significant reason this cycle and it isn't close.

I'm telling you that all ND had to do was allow certain kids to commit when they were actually going to and they'd have finished in the 6-8 range. Everything is status quo. Kelly doesn't lift another finger and we're there. So, it sounds to me like recruiting acumen isn't an issue. It's an issue of whether or not we want to compete on numbers. This cycle we didn't and most we don't.

And yes, numbers matter a great deal every cycle.

In your world of make believe. Kelly calls Clark Phillips a few more times and he's at ND. BTW, he ended up at Utah, lol. He decommitted from tOSU to go to Utah. You actually think he was going to stick with ND if BK called him more? I'm sorry but that's absolutely absurd.

 

[Luckylucci]

Theory: If BK were more involved we'd have landed these elite players and be in the top 10.

Reality: We didn't need Bk to be more involved to get dangerously close to the top 5. We just needed to say yes more.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

That’s the only reason? In Kelly’s Tenure at ND the only reason is numbers? That’s definitely not correct. This year possibly but say for arguments sake if Kelly was more involved we get a ransom and McMillan (not saying 100% we would) but our class would be around the 7 range, well regardless of numbers those guys were both Takes, so was Clark Philips which was another example of Kelly not being involved enough. So no I can’t agree that the only reason we are 10-15 is because of numbers every year.

Wasn’t Brian Kelly extremely involved I’m Clark Philips recruitment? I believe Kelly went after Philips full go. Phillips was never coming to Notre Dame because he never had the grades to make it in.

I’ll also tell you that McMillian was never going to come to Notre Dame either. Even if Kelly talked to McMillian everyday since his birth he was never coming to ND. I don’t even think ND was #2 for him.


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[Ndaccountant]

Theory: If BK were more involved we'd have landed these elite players and be in the top 10.

Reality: We didn't need Bk to be more involved to get dangerously close to the top 5. We just needed to say yes more.

 

[NDisme]

It's the most significant reason this cycle and it isn't close.

I'm telling you that all ND had to do was allow certain kids to commit when they were actually going to and they'd have finished in the 6-8 range. Everything is status quo. Kelly doesn't lift another finger and we're there. So, it sounds to me like recruiting acumen isn't an issue. It's an issue of whether or not we want to compete on numbers. This cycle we didn't and most we don't.

And yes, numbers matter a great deal every cycle.

In your world of make believe. Kelly calls Clark Phillips a few more times and he's at ND. BTW, he ended up at Utah, lol. He decommitted from tOSU to go to Utah. You actually think he was going to stick with ND if BK called him more? I'm sorry but that's absolutely absurd.

Why is my world make believe everyone that covers ND has the same thing to say, Kelly needs to be more involved for us to land guys like Phillips, Ransom, McMillen to pair with Johnson, Tyree, Mayer. So the guys that have followed recruiting since Kelly’s Tenure in recruiting and beyond just all decided to say yes I agree he isn’t as involved as Dabo, Ryan Day, Coach O and Saban (more so early 2010s). They have all heard it. It’s not just a this year thing. I’m going to assume at least some of them know what their talking about.
In Clark Phillips case, he wanted to visit in July which is now a prime visit period, he was told no Kelly is on vacation, sorry imo that isn’t acceptable. It is an issue. I’m not making it up. We have a great start to the 21 class. Will Shipley comes to mind, I have seen plenty of articles that He has a great relationship with Lance Taylor Kelly needs to get involved and close. I’m 2013 he was backed into a corner and needed Nyles Morgan he went out and grinded and got him, but only cuz he was backed in a corner and couldn’t afford to miss. I get it cuz a lot of times I’m the same way. Not doing what is necessary until your hand is forced. But I am not the Coach at ND. He has to be better.

 

[Cali_domer]

Why is my world make believe everyone that covers ND has the same thing to say, Kelly needs to be more involved for us to land guys like Phillips, Ransom, McMillen to pair with Johnson, Tyree, Mayer. So the guys that have followed recruiting since Kelly’s Tenure in recruiting and beyond just all decided to say yes I agree he isn’t as involved as Dabo, Ryan Day, Coach O and Saban (more so early 2010s). They have all heard it. It’s not just a this year thing. I’m going to assume at least some of them know what their talking about.
In Clark Phillips case, he wanted to visit in July which is now a prime visit period, he was told no Kelly is on vacation, sorry imo that isn’t acceptable. It is an issue. I’m not making it up. We have a great start to the 21 class. Will Shipley comes to mind, I have seen plenty of articles that He has a great relationship with Lance Taylor Kelly needs to get involved and close. I’m 2013 he was backed into a corner and needed Nyles Morgan he went out and grinded and got him, but only cuz he was backed in a corner and couldn’t afford to miss. I get it cuz a lot of times I’m the same way. Not doing what is necessary until your hand is forced. But I am not the Coach at ND. He has to be better.

It is make believe because you question the perfection of the our dear leader BK. Anything bad about BK= bad, lies, misunderstanding, fairy-tale..

 

[dad4aa]

Why is my world make believe everyone that covers ND has the same thing to say, Kelly needs to be more involved for us to land guys like Phillips, Ransom, McMillen to pair with Johnson, Tyree, Mayer. So the guys that have followed recruiting since Kelly’s Tenure in recruiting and beyond just all decided to say yes I agree he isn’t as involved as Dabo, Ryan Day, Coach O and Saban (more so early 2010s). They have all heard it. It’s not just a this year thing. I’m going to assume at least some of them know what their talking about.
In Clark Phillips case, he wanted to visit in July which is now a prime visit period, he was told no Kelly is on vacation, sorry imo that isn’t acceptable. It is an issue. I’m not making it up. We have a great start to the 21 class. Will Shipley comes to mind, I have seen plenty of articles that He has a great relationship with Lance Taylor Kelly needs to get involved and close. I’m 2013 he was backed into a corner and needed Nyles Morgan he went out and grinded and got him, but only cuz he was backed in a corner and couldn’t afford to miss. I get it cuz a lot of times I’m the same way. Not doing what is necessary until your hand is forced. But I am not the Coach at ND. He has to be better.

I have been staying out of this because I am not sure what the truth is. However, this was the dumbest shit ever posted. These coaches are never home and travel all over the country (and now it appears internationally). BK schedules a family vacation and because a recruit wants to come visit THAT week BK is supposed to cancel his vacation or leave for a couple days to come back. F*cking absurd!!
And don't come back and post you meant he should not have been told no bc then your argument would be BK doesn't care and wasn't as involved in his recruitment as he should have been.

 

[Cali_domer]

I have been staying out of this because I am not sure what the truth is. However, this was the dumbest shit ever posted. These coaches are never home and travel all over the country (and now it appears internationally). BK schedules a family vacation and because a recruit wants to come visit THAT week BK is supposed to cancel his vacation or leave for a couple days to come back. F*cking absurd!!
And don't come back and post you meant he should not have been told no bc then your argument would be BK doesn't care and wasn't as involved in his recruitment as he should have been.

You know what is annoying is the kool-aid drinkers who refuse to acknowledge BK could do much better. These whispers of him being disinterested in recruiting matters stretches back farther than this recruiting cycle. BK could and should do more period.

Attacking the kids and the columnist who raise concerns is weak and sadly predictable.

 

[dad4aa]

You know what is annoying is the kool-aid drinkers who refuse to acknowledge BK could do much better. These whispers of him being disinterested in recruiting matters stretches back farther than this recruiting cycle. BK could and should do more period.

Attacking the kids and the columnist who raise concerns is weak and sadly predictable.

I am definitely not a Kool-Aid drinker and I never said he shouldn't be more involved. I said I have no idea who is right. I just think it is totally asinine to think BK, or any coach, is not entitled to take a family vacation. Total BS.

 

[NDisme]

I am definitely not a Kool-Aid drinker and I never said he shouldn't be more involved. I said I have no idea who is right. I just think it is totally asinine to think BK, or any coach, is not entitled to take a family vacation. Total BS.

Oh I agree 100% but go during a dead period that doesn’t effect your job! When you get paid millions. Two outlets reported the Clark Philips thing so I’m just saying what I heard. There are dead periods during the year. Pick then. Maybe he did damage control with Phillips and he just didn’t want to come here. But the narrative is out there. We have had 1 top 5 class in his tenure. It is possible despite numbers, but we are constantly in the 10-15 and below range. It doesn’t take a genius to connect the dots. Kelly doesn’t do what is necessary unless absolutely forced. Staff decisions (2016) and with recruiting. You can blast me all you want, dumb post that’s fine, heard it from 3 separate outlets.

 

[Luckylucci]

Why is my world make believe everyone that covers ND has the same thing to say, Kelly needs to be more involved for us to land guys like Phillips, Ransom, McMillen to pair with Johnson, Tyree, Mayer. So the guys that have followed recruiting since Kelly’s Tenure in recruiting and beyond just all decided to say yes I agree he isn’t as involved as Dabo, Ryan Day, Coach O and Saban (more so early 2010s). They have all heard it. It’s not just a this year thing. I’m going to assume at least some of them know what their talking about.
In Clark Phillips case, he wanted to visit in July which is now a prime visit period, he was told no Kelly is on vacation, sorry imo that isn’t acceptable. It is an issue. I’m not making it up. We have a great start to the 21 class. Will Shipley comes to mind, I have seen plenty of articles that He has a great relationship with Lance Taylor Kelly needs to get involved and close. I’m 2013 he was backed into a corner and needed Nyles Morgan he went out and grinded and got him, but only cuz he was backed in a corner and couldn’t afford to miss. I get it cuz a lot of times I’m the same way. Not doing what is necessary until your hand is forced. But I am not the Coach at ND. He has to be better.

It’s make believe because you can’t quantify what it looks like. Give me specific examples of recruits that would’ve undoubtedly committed to ND had BK recruited them more. Because I can give you very specific players that tried to commit and were told no.

You said BK is why we are a 10-15 recruiting program and I gave you factual information of why that’s not the case. You said, but if he recruited these 3 guys more we may have had a slightly better chance with them.

BK undoubtedly has to recruit more but let’s be real. This program is recruiting very well right now with BK’s current recruiting and numbers prove that.

 

[fightingirish26]

It’s make believe because you can’t quantify what it looks like. Give me specific examples of recruits that would’ve undoubtedly committed to ND had BK recruited them more. Because I can give you very specific players that tried to commit and were told no.

You said BK is why we are a 10-15 recruiting program and I gave you factual information of why that’s not the case. You said, but if he recruited these 3 guys more we may have had a slightly better chance with them.

BK undoubtedly has to recruit more but let’s be real. This program is recruiting very well right now with BK’s current recruiting and numbers prove that.

Murphy + Zinter? Maybe Nixon? Redding? You at liberty to share?

 

[NDisme]

It’s make believe because you can’t quantify what it looks like. Give me specific examples of recruits that would’ve undoubtedly committed to ND had BK recruited them more. Because I can give you very specific players that tried to commit and were told no.

You said BK is why we are a 10-15 recruiting program and I gave you factual information of why that’s not the case. You said, but if he recruited these 3 guys more we may have had a slightly better chance with them.

BK undoubtedly has to recruit more but let’s be real. This program is recruiting very well right now with BK’s current recruiting and numbers prove that.

All I’m saying is multiple reports have come out about this being an issue, I don’t hear anything like this from the coaches I named. If Kelly said no to anyone that was bonafide elite or program changing due to circumstances out of his control then that sucks. I’m not just talking about this year. The mere fact that this has multiple places discussing it is enough for there to be concern is the point I’m making. He said in his presser he believes ND can be a top 5 recruiting program (didn’t mention #s being a reason they can’t) well it seems like the consensus around the program is that he needs to do more. If that wasn’t the case we wouldn’t be hearing about it.

 

[BobbyMac]

Murphy + Zinter? Maybe Nixon? Redding? You at liberty to share?

Don't forget, they also gave away what would have been their only 5* on 247's big board in Pete Skoronski. Still can't believe the entire Skoronski Scenario happened.

The Skoronski Scenario: When an elite prospect has ND clearly on top and all ND has to do is let him commit but instead, the staff can't close the deal, regardless of their made up reasons AND DEN... crawls back to him before signing day looking for the flip like the girl that broke up with you 2 months before prom because you drive a Chevy Cavalier is forced to crawl back to you when her new guy with the IROC-Z dumped her 2 days before the dance.

I

 

[Luckylucci]

Murphy + Zinter? Maybe Nixon? Redding? You at liberty to share?

It's not a secret. Murphy, Zinter, and Redding. If Justin Robinson was recruited as a WR then he's in the class. Then there is a huge list of guys that we just didn't recruit that hard that if we would've, we would have had varying degrees of good chances with (this also becomes more speculative). Jordan Addison, Enzo Jennings, Deontae Craig, Kaleel Mulling, Cody Simon, Daniel Jackson and Kevin Pyne (would look good for those recruiting rankings). All 4 star prospects per the composite.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Coaching Carousel 2019

Why is my world make believe everyone that covers ND has the same thing to say, Kelly needs to be more involved for us to land guys like Phillips, Ransom, McMillen to pair with Johnson, Tyree, Mayer. So the guys that have followed recruiting since Kelly’s Tenure in recruiting and beyond just all decided to say yes I agree he isn’t as involved as Dabo, Ryan Day, Coach O and Saban (more so early 2010s). They have all heard it. It’s not just a this year thing. I’m going to assume at least some of them know what their talking about.

In Clark Phillips case, he wanted to visit in July which is now a prime visit period, he was told no Kelly is on vacation, sorry imo that isn’t acceptable. It is an issue. I’m not making it up. We have a great start to the 21 class. Will Shipley comes to mind, I have seen plenty of articles that He has a great relationship with Lance Taylor Kelly needs to get involved and close. I’m 2013 he was backed into a corner and needed Nyles Morgan he went out and grinded and got him, but only cuz he was backed in a corner and couldn’t afford to miss. I get it cuz a lot of times I’m the same way. Not doing what is necessary until your hand is forced. But I am not the Coach at ND. He has to be better.

Nyles Morgan was class of 2014 not 2013.

And again regarding Clark Philips wasn’t Kelly heavily involved in his recruitment? Didn’t he have a lot of work to do in the classroom and fell short anyway? Seems to me like Clark Philips probably was not a good fit for the program anyway. May have been a similar outcome like Noah Boykin.


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[Luckylucci]

Myles Morgan was class of 2014 not 2013.

And again regarding Clark Philips wasn’t Kelly heavily involved in his recruitment? Didn’t he have a lot of work to do in the classroom and fell short anyway? Seems to me like Clark Philips probably was not a good fit for the program anyway. May have been a similar outcome like Noah Boykin.


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I find it particularly funny that this tireless recruiter that is Jason Day lost Phillips to Utah. Nobody loses recruits to Utah.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I find it particularly funny that this tireless recruiter that is Jason Day lost Phillips to Utah. Nobody loses recruits to Utah.

Again, not saying which side of the argument is right. But this Utah thing had everything to do with Hafley.

IMO, you could say the same thing could/would have happened to ND with Lyght. Conversely, using Phillips to Utah to disprove Kelly is ignoring the situation surrounding the recruitment. I guess in the end, we can all probably agree that each recruit is like a snowflake & the HC giving "more effort" may or may not provide benefit, depending on each circumstance.

As to whether BK could or should provide more effort......BK has proven in time with ND that he is very much self serving (what ND can do for him vs what he can do for ND). Not a surprise, nearly every coach is that way. But he often does his best work when he has something to prove or is after something. I am a firm believer that he wanted the NFL and early on in his time at ND tried to use ND to get that done. When it became apparent that wasn't going to happen or was a long shot, his guard was let down a bit. Then 2016 happened and his ass was on the line and we have turned it around. There is a part of me that wonders what he is fighting for now and whether or not that is good enough to "ignite" that fire that gives us the best BK. Barring a collapse, he will most likely finish his career out at ND. The only thing I think he may be fighting for is his ultimate legacy, which should be judged by championships. Just not sure if that is enough. That is why I was intrigued by the comment on recruiting. Is this really another "challenge" for him that will push him? Or is it more about squeezing the ND $$ lemon some more to make his last few years a bit easier?

 

[Luckylucci]

It certainly did (with regards to Hafley) and isn’t that kind of the point. For both Phillips and Martinez. If HC contact was so important why are those guys not with Ransom right now. We have tangible information that says increasing numbers would have major significance on this years ranking. Or we have a theory that only relates to a ‘possible’ couple. Doesn’t make sense to me.