Children, School, Unions and Teacher's going on strike.

[Irish YJ]

I'm a high school geometry teacher at my alma mater here in CA. I'm not here to get into a back and forth. I'm not asking for a pity party. I'm just here to simply state my experiences. I make less than 60k a year and coach two sports for which I have to pay for gas to drive them to games (basketball) due to a limited budget. I don't have a single class with less than 30 kids in it, most of whom don't know their times tables. The disrespect I've seen from students (not towards me) is something I couldn't even fathom doing when I was in school, because there were consequences. Both at school and home. To be cussed out by a student and have that same student back in your class the next day isn't very empowering for teachers and kids today pick up on that. I once called home to a inform a parent of their child cheating and was told, " My child wouldn't do that. I don't believe you." I love it though and there's no easy fix, but please believe I'm going to grind every day to make the best of my situation. Everyone in the equation needs to be accountable: teachers, students, and parents.

Thank you for all that you do!

 

[Wild Bill]

As a public school teacher in a juvenile placement there is a lot I can say... I choose not to though for many reasons. I will provide a few observations from my side though:

1, Students' home lives matter. Teachers many times are fighting those home lives and the lack of desire for education at home.
2, Disrespect is a real thing. Goes back to the home life. Teachers aren't deserving of respect according to parents, siblings, friends, which in turn means kids are fighting with teachers, not doing work, not going to school, etc.
3, We have a massive problem with funding. I don't mean that we always are suffering from a lack of funds. Rather, it's that these funds don't reach to the classroom for any real benefit for the students. I'm lucky in that we have a lot of resources for our kids (more so than many from inner cities would ever get). We have a room here dedicated to 3-D printing, laser engraving, shirt printing, poster design, you name it. Great opportunity for my kids, but we are an exception for lower income students.
4, After school programs have been shown to work, yet they get cut when funding dries up.
5, Politicians putting their hand in education without consulting ACTUAL educators.
6, I love teaching. My kids are, most often, the worst kids in class at school (when attending). Now I have an entire class every period of the worst kids. What people don't realize is many of these kids are very bright. They are however stunted in their educational growth at times due to lack of good schooling or attendance. Others are able to show they are bright, but don't want to because it still isn't cool in their cliques to be smart.

It's the exact opposite in Indiana. The system is designed fund districts where poverty is the most prevalent. The effect is that more affluent districts like Carmel, Munster, , Zionsville, etc, receive far less per pupil than other districts with higher levels of poverty. Despite the lack of funding, these schools continually outperform districts who receive thousands more per student and millions more overall.

Just look at how much money is dumped into the public school systems in Chicago, Baltimore, Newark, etc. Have we seen any improvement? You're probably right, a lot of this money isn't making it into the classroom. But that's all the more reason for taxpayers to reject increases in taxes for school systems who routinely misuse funds.

I sympathize with many teachers I know who make very little to work a difficult job. I'd vote in favor of any referendum in my own district to increase their pay or benefits. I would absolutely reject any increase that sends my money to some shithole district who will piss it away, though.

 

[ACamp1900]

Here we have district heads and high level admins getting catered lunches every day, having district cars, high level computers that are replaced yearly, their cars are over at the local golf courses multiple times a week during office hours... yet, 'sorry there are no funds for that... we're broke." Is all you ever hear when something is needed for the classroom....

 

[GowerND11]

It's the exact opposite in Indiana. The system is designed fund districts where poverty is the most prevalent. The effect is that more affluent districts like Carmel, Munster, , Zionsville, etc, receive far less per pupil than other districts with higher levels of poverty. Despite the lack of funding, these schools continually outperform districts who receive thousands more per student and millions more overall.

Just look at how much money is dumped into the public school systems in Chicago, Baltimore, Newark, etc. Have we seen any improvement? You're probably right, a lot of this money isn't making it into the classroom. But that's all the more reason for taxpayers to reject increases in taxes for school systems who routinely misuse funds.

I sympathize with many teachers I know who make very little to work a difficult job. I'd vote in favor of any referendum in my own district to increase their pay or benefits. I would absolutely reject any increase that sends my money to some shithole district who will piss it away, though.

You're actually verifying my point. It isn't making it to the students and classrooms the proper way. Look at what Aaron Maybin has been trying to show people about the school he teaches at in Baltimore! Now there are success stories. Not all of them are private schools, and not all of them are public.

One of the best things I've seen out there is the model started in Chicago at the Cristo Rey Jesuit High School which has since expanded to other cities. The students actually go to work, and then the companies they go work for help foot the tuition bill. It's been working really well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristo_Rey_Jesuit_High_School_(Chicago)

https://www.cristorey.net/

 

[Irish YJ]

Add in the fact that the US is near the top (I think we are top 3) in terms of OECD country spend per pupil. But.... we are middle of the pack overall (test results), and bottom 3rd in Math.

Wonder what S Korea is doing right. They are bottom 3rd in spend, yet number 1 testing. I'd bet there's not a lot of back talk from students...

 

[Irish YJ]

Here we have district heads and high level admins getting catered lunches every day, having district cars, high level computers that are replaced yearly, their cars are over at the local golf courses multiple times a week during office hours... yet, 'sorry there are no funds for that... we're broke." Is all you ever hear when something is needed for the classroom....

You think you Cali's crazy. Take a look at the admin pay per student from DC....

The States That Spend the Most (and the Least) on Education

 

[GowerND11]

Add in the fact that the US is near the top (I think we are top 3) in terms of OECD country spend per pupil. But.... we are middle of the pack overall (test results), and bottom 3rd in Math.

Wonder what S Korea is doing right. They are bottom 3rd in spend, yet number 1 testing. I'd bet there's not a lot of back talk from students...

There's a lot of factors. Culture, Socioeconomics, racial diversity (or lack thereof in some cases), and more. Anecdotally, I feel like there are more undereducated Americans that resent their own children getting education that in other countries that see education as the ticket to success for their kids.

 

[Wild Bill]

You're actually verifying my point. It isn't making it to the students and classrooms the proper way. Look at what Aaron Maybin has been trying to show people about the school he teaches at in Baltimore! Now there are success stories. Not all of them are private schools, and not all of them are public.

One of the best things I've seen out there is the model started in Chicago at the Cristo Rey Jesuit High School which has since expanded to other cities. The students actually go to work, and then the companies they go work for help foot the tuition bill. It's been working really well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristo_Rey_Jesuit_High_School_(Chicago)

https://www.cristorey.net/

I was speaking specifically about the public school system. They're terrible in spite of a relatively high amount of spending per pupil.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Another oversimplified complexity....

I have had two WV high school teachers in my family. Both math and both highly credentialed. They were very good at their jobs. AND, they were woefully underpaid considering their credentials and their results and even their seniority. The bottomline of that comment is: there is no such thing as a "West Virginia school teacher", anymore than all persons with a similar job title in any profession are the same quality employee. My relatives were outstanding but only marginally recognized for their quality --- teaching is not usually much of a Meritocracy.

Both my relatives had easier jobs than some others because they taught in small town (public) schools and were able to know every kid and every kid's family. Any situation where the size of things gets beyond your ability to treat individual relationships on the personal level (at least to some extent) will be socially unmanageable (unless you have military-level threat and control.) Almost all of the griping about school teachers that I've heard is about teachers who have little to no opportunity to actually get to know who the students and their families are. Without that, and without real threat of loss of some kind (which society will not allow), this situation is close to impossible.

But, because of broadbrush smearing of everyone under crude labeling, and societal pressures to pay these people (most of whom I view as heroes) more or less equally (therefore low), the future prospects of especially the better teachers looks grim enough to drive them elsewhere. Both my family members went into the Ohio system just across the river, which afforded somewhat better pay and benefits, until Kasich became governor and went on a balanced budget platform which emphasized things like cutting their benefits. My brother shortly retired, while my sister-in-law (different brother's wife) soldiers on.

Neither of these individual highly competent persons needed to be either poorly paid or to have their benefits cut. All employees occupying the same work niche are not equal. And all working environments aren't either. It amazes me that we can get anyone to stand in front of a large city inner city classroom, unless maybe he's the football coach.

 

[NDRock]

Do the scores of kids from private school count when discussing global education rankings?

 

[IrishLax]

Add in the fact that the US is near the top (I think we are top 3) in terms of OECD country spend per pupil. But.... we are middle of the pack overall (test results), and bottom 3rd in Math.

Wonder what S Korea is doing right. They are bottom 3rd in spend, yet number 1 testing. I'd bet there's not a lot of back talk from students...

I'll just add that the HS I went to is majority Asian and I had a lot of Korean friends. For good or worse, there is so much pressure on the home front to perform scholastically that they end up doing just that. I did not have a tenth of the pressure most of them did, I remember one kid crying freshman year because he got straights As and 1 B+... on an interim. Not even a real report card. Some might argue that's unhealthy, but like you said they were all pushed to be the best students they could be.

When you don't have that kind of culture or structure, you're simply not going to see the same "results" regardless of how good a teacher is or how "smart" the kids are. Most issues in this country are layered...

1. I don't think good teachers get paid nearly enough, and I think bad teachers get paid way too much. I've got many friends who are teachers and every single one has multiple stories about "that" teacher who just totally sucks at their job. They are basically unfireable, because unions. Same reasons we can't get rid of bad cops. But! Without unions teachers would get paid even less and that would be worse. The issue is that the unions tend to protect the herd instead of advocating on behalf of the strongest water buffaloes and letting the others get eaten.

2. For awhile, DC spent more per pupil than anywhere in the country and had some of the worst results. You cannot just throw money at the problem. Which sort of undermines #1 being the principle cause. It's more that a re-allocation of money is needed than it is that "more" money is needed, IMO.

3. It is proven that people who are heavily involved in after school programs and have other structure do better than their peers that don't. IMO, emphasis needs to placed on fixing the issues outside of the classroom before you can tackle those inside. But our country is heading the opposite direction so I have little to no hope for that. I work with a number of Indian people at my engineering firm who have said that a huge emphasis is put on education for poor people as their "way out" of poverty. In the United States, emphasis is put on "hustling" or being an athlete or being a youtube star or whatever instead of on scholastic achievement as a silver bullet. There needs to be a societal shift for scholastic achievement to increase... we can't have everyone aspiring to be an Instagram model or Twitter activist or "influencer" or whatever the fuck this upcoming generation is currently obsessed with.

 

[Irish YJ]

There's a lot of factors. Culture, Socioeconomics, racial diversity (or lack thereof in some cases), and more. Anecdotally, I feel like there are more undereducated Americans that resent their own children getting education that in other countries that see education as the ticket to success for their kids.

Obviously there are a ton of factors at play, but schools can't cure socioeconomic, diversity, and cultural problems (although some educators think it's their task). Schools should educate, not solve socioeconomic problems.....

My point is, we need to take a fact and data look at why some states do better, some countries do better, etc.. We do know that there are states that have socioeconomic challenges that outperform states with less challenges.

From a purity perspective, look at what works, and look at what the problems truly are, regardless of how un-PC the answers might be. Political narrative and PC BS are only barriers to taking an honest look at things.

Teachers getting cussed out while their administrators play golf and eat catered food while discussing socioeconomic challenges does not get us anywhere.

For argument's sake, let's say two of the biggest challenges teachers face (on the surface) today are 1) kids don't give a shit, and 2) parents don't give a shit. A teacher can only do so much to combat those challenges, and the effort to combat those challenges takes away from what they are suppose to be doing, which is educating.

As an educator yourself, what should be done? Sure you can try to impact the kid, and try to help him understand why an education is important, but how much do you let a kid who doesn't get the message continue to impact the experience of the other kids in the class. There's not much you can do about parents at all. There's just not enough accountability. And parenting IMO is 90+% of the problem.

 

[Irish YJ]

I'll just add that the HS I went to is majority Asian and I had a lot of Korean friends. For good or worse, there is so much pressure on the home front to perform scholastically that they end up doing just that. I did not have a tenth of the pressure most of them did, I remember one kid crying freshman year because he got straights As and 1 B+... on an interim. Not even a real report card. Some might argue that's unhealthy, but like you said they were all pushed to be the best students they could be.

When you don't have that kind of culture or structure, you're simply not going to see the same "results" regardless of how good a teacher is or how "smart" the kids are. Most issues in this country are layered...

1. I don't think good teachers get paid nearly enough, and I think bad teachers get paid way too much. I've got many friends who are teachers and every single one has multiple stories about "that" teacher who just totally sucks at their job. They are basically unfireable, because unions. Same reasons we can't get rid of bad cops. But! Without unions teachers would get paid even less and that would be worse. The issue is that the unions tend to protect the herd instead of advocating on behalf of the strongest water buffaloes and letting the others get eaten.

2. For awhile, DC spent more per pupil than anywhere in the country and had some of the worst results. You cannot just throw money at the problem. Which sort of undermines #1 being the principle cause. It's more that a re-allocation of money is needed than it is that "more" money is needed, IMO.

3. It is proven that people who are heavily involved in after school programs and have other structure do better than their peers that don't. IMO, emphasis needs to placed on fixing the issues outside of the classroom before you can tackle those inside. But our country is heading the opposite direction so I have little to no hope for that. I work with a number of Indian people at my engineering firm who have said that a huge emphasis is put on education for poor people as their "way out" of poverty. In the United States, emphasis is put on "hustling" or being an athlete or being a youtube star or whatever instead of on scholastic achievement as a silver bullet. There needs to be a societal shift for scholastic achievement to increase... we can't have everyone aspiring to be an Instagram model or Twitter activist or "influencer" or whatever the fuck this upcoming generation is currently obsessed with.

Agree on all points. Your number 3 cracks me up. I have 3 kids in my neighborhood who come from decent families..... and all are very smart (with zero common sense). One is going to be a famous rapper, the other a famous singer (she is actually very good), and one is making a decent income selling weed to the other kids. None really care about education or the need to go to college. They all feel special and think they should follow their passion.... The pot dealer thinks that it's stupid that it's illegal and that he's going to get in on the business side once it becomes legal in GA... All three of them are very passionate about politics... well at least on Twitter and Facebook they are. I don't think any of them voted last election lol.

and to add... I'd rather parents put too much pressure on kids, than none at all..

 

[ab2cmiller]

Obviously there are a ton of factors at play, but schools can't cure socioeconomic, diversity, and cultural problems (although some educators think it's their task). Schools should educate, not solve socioeconomic problems.....

My point is, we need to take a fact and data look at why some states do better, some countries do better, etc.. We do know that there are states that have socioeconomic challenges that outperform states with less challenges.

From a purity perspective, look at what works, and look at what the problems truly are, regardless of how un-PC the answers might be. Political narrative and PC BS are only barriers to taking an honest look at things.

Teachers getting cussed out while their administrators play golf and eat catered food while discussing socioeconomic challenges does not get us anywhere.

For argument's sake, let's say two of the biggest challenges teachers face (on the surface) today are 1) kids don't give a shit, and 2) parents don't give a shit. A teacher can only do so much to combat those challenges, and the effort to combat those challenges takes away from what they are suppose to be doing, which is educating.

As an educator yourself, what should be done? Sure you can try to impact the kid, and try to help him understand why an education is important, but how much do you let a kid who doesn't get the message continue to impact the experience of the other kids in the class. There's not much you can do about parents at all. There's just not enough accountability. And parenting IMO is 90+% of the problem.

This is it in a nutshell. But it's even worse than parents not giving a shit, it's parents actively undermining the teachers. It's parents badmouthing teachers at home in front of their kids. It's parents calling up and screaming at the teacher why their Johnny got a bad grade. I wonder how many teachers dumb down their classes to ensure that everyone gets good grades so they don't get harassed on a daily basis by "concerned" parents who are too busy watching TV or are on their phones every evening to even attempt to help their kids with their school work. If their Johnny doesn't get a good grade, it's all the teachers fault.

 

[NDohio]

Ok, cool... so give up tenure in exchange for lower health care costs? ... no not resonable? How many other professions have a built in perk that guarantees your job short of major criminal convictions

My wife fears for her job every single year. Here in South Carolina there is no union and the teacher's are rated on the test scores of their students. Now, that seems fair right? Well, my wife chooses to teach in a poorer district, and like was said above, she also teaches a group of kids every year that are the "problem" kids. This class is always all freshman girls that have had discipline/academic issues in middle school. These are the students whose test scores get turned into the State for my wife to be graded on. If the scores are not at an acceptable level she is put on a three year probationary period and has to get those scores up or she gone. Fortunately she has been above the cut line so far.

Truthfully, I am trying to convince her to get out of teaching. The stress is having adverse affects on her health. She could easily make more money with a third of the headaches by going into the business world. She has always considered teaching to be her mission field so it is hard for her to give that up.

IMO it is not the public schools that are the issue, it's a societal issue and the lack of importance/expectations that are put on educating our young.

 

[NDohio]

This is it in a nutshell. But it's even worse than parents not giving a shit, it's parents actively undermining the teachers. It's parents badmouthing teachers at home in front of their kids. It's parents calling up and screaming at the teacher why their Johnny got a bad grade. I wonder how many teachers dumb down their classes to ensure that everyone gets good grades so they don't get harassed on a daily basis by "concerned" parents who are too busy watching TV or are on their phones every evening to even attempt to help their kids with their school work. If their Johnny doesn't get a good grade, it's all the teachers fault.

It is often out of the teacher's control. The administrator puts demands on teachers to pass kids so they don't have to deal with the parent(s).

 

[SaltyND24]

My wife fears for her job every single year. Here in South Carolina there is no union and the teacher's are rated on the test scores of their students. Now, that seems fair right? Well, my wife chooses to teach in a poorer district, and like was said above, she also teaches a group of kids every year that are the "problem" kids. This class is always all freshman girls that have had discipline/academic issues in middle school. These are the students whose test scores get turned into the State for my wife to be graded on. If the scores are not at an acceptable level she is put on a three year probationary period and has to get those scores up or she gone. Fortunately she has been above the cut line so far.

Truthfully, I am trying to convince her to get out of teaching. The stress is having adverse affects on her health. She could easily make more money with a third of the headaches by going into the business world. She has always considered teaching to be her mission field so it is hard for her to give that up.

IMO it is not the public schools that are the issue, it's a societal issue and the lack of importance/expectations that are put on educating our young.

This should only ever be the case in the situation that all classes are evenly distributed based on previous test score for each subject area/grade. Otherwise, I would never go for having a class of "lower level kids" unless being judged on their growth during the academic year from the previous one. Also, I feel like the stress alone would lead some teachers (not your wife) to cheat to improve scores.

To add to the narrative of test scores, I have had to proctor the PSAT, which is given to all freshmen, sophomores, and juinior) and an easy 70% don't take it seriously and just want it to be over with. In many cases, the same is true for other state tests.

 

[Irish YJ]

This should only ever be the case in the situation that all classes are evenly distributed based on previous test score for each subject area/grade. Otherwise, I would never go for having a class of "lower level kids" unless being judged on their growth during the academic year from the previous one. Also, I feel like the stress alone would lead some teachers (not your wife) to cheat to improve scores.

To add to the narrative of test scores, I have had to proctor the PSAT, which is given to all freshmen, sophomores, and juinior) and an easy 70% don't take it seriously and just want it to be over with. In many cases, the same is true for other state tests.

There needs to be testing and accountability for teachers, but also common sense. Like you said, there should be either an even distribution or some grace given if not. I know a lot of people cringe about standardized testing, but it's really the only way to gauge apples to apples. If kids are tested equally (equal content and frequency), it would be easy enough to show improvement or decline year over year, or within the class year for students, teachers, schools, etc... In terms of stress, all jobs have stress around performance.... The means of measuring performance just needs to be consistent and fair. There also needs to be a way that grading for these tests is taken out of the teachers hands to ensure there's no cheating going on. I saw first hand the 2009 scandal in ATL. Crazy stuff.

 

[SaltyND24]

There needs to be testing and accountability for teachers, but also common sense. Like you said, there should be either an even distribution or some grace given if not. I know a lot of people cringe about standardized testing, but it's really the only way to gauge apples to apples. If kids are tested equally (equal content and frequency), it would be easy enough to show improvement or decline year over year, or within the class year for students, teachers, schools, etc... In terms of stress, all jobs have stress around performance.... The means of measuring performance just needs to be consistent and fair. There also needs to be a way that grading for these tests is taken out of the teachers hands to ensure there's no cheating going on. I saw first hand the 2009 scandal in ATL. Crazy stuff.

I would agree that there needs to be test and accountability. I know the students used to dread the month of April because it was when all of their standardized testing would take place. You could see the "burned out" faces from a mile away. Our site decided that we would break up the testing and it would only take place in one particular classroom over several days to least interfere with the plans of the teachers. This year our students took the API in the beginning of the year and will take it again at the end to determine growth.

The only argument that I have heard from coworkers is that using test scores as a way to hold teachers accountable is that it is still ultimately comes down to the students. I can teach them everything there is to learn in my class and differentiate all the lessons in the world to reach the modalities of learning styles and it will still not mean a thing if the students don't care to either learn or take the test seriously. Hopefully, there is some way to implement a test that can hold both parties accountable. We used to have the CAHSEE, which was the exit exam, and you couldn't get your diploma until that was passed, except for special circumstances.

 

[AvesEvo]

I was curious myself - I found this May 2017 report from the National Education Association: http://www.nea.org/assets/docs/2017_Rankings_and_Estimates_Report-FINAL-SECURED.pdf

I don't think that it is easy to really figure out national trends when each state is very different. Briefly looking over this 150 page report I found a few things interesting in tables C-3 to C-5

- West Virginia (original topic of this post) had the second lowest paid teachers in 2015-16 from the last year data was available. They were behind only Arizona ranked 51st (includes DC). Salary decreased from the previous year when WV was 46th.

- California has the highest paid teachers and the second most number of teachers behind only Texas. HOWEVER - they have the highest students per teacher ratio in the country at 22.5 per teacher because of the sheer volume of people in the state. For reference, Texas has 15.2 s:t ratio (27th highest); Indiana 17.4 (10th highest); Massachusetts 12.4 (41st highest); New Jersey 11.9 (50th highest or second lowest).

- Other salary rankings: Massachusetts 3rd highest, New Jersey 6th highest, New York highest

- It seems like student to teacher ratio is something to look at as well as the other factors like salary. I could not speak to the curriculum, teacher competency or retention rates among other factors that would affect student outcomes

Other websites I found with nice graphs/pictures but do not explain a comprehensive story
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-schools/5335/

https://www.edweek.org/ew/collections/quality-counts-2018-state-grades/report-card-map-rankings.html

Im a public high school teacher in California and the teacher shortage is a real problem. It is not uncommon in my district to have 40+ students in a classroom. And yes, we are on average paid the most, but it costs over half our salary for a one bedroom apartment so many of us end up renting rooms in a strangers bourse for $1000/month. Our high salary doesn’t t go far in these parts

 

[Irishize]

I'm a high school geometry teacher at my alma mater here in CA. I'm not here to get into a back and forth. I'm not asking for a pity party. I'm just here to simply state my experiences. I make less than 60k a year and coach two sports for which I have to pay for gas to drive them to games (basketball) due to a limited budget. I don't have a single class with less than 30 kids in it, most of whom don't know their times tables. The disrespect I've seen from students (not towards me) is something I couldn't even fathom doing when I was in school, because there were consequences. Both at school and home. To be cussed out by a student and have that same student back in your class the next day isn't very empowering for teachers and kids today pick up on that. I once called home to a inform a parent of their child cheating and was told, " My child wouldn't do that. I don't believe you." I love it though and there's no easy fix, but please believe I'm going to grind every day to make the best of my situation. Everyone in the equation needs to be accountable: teachers, students, and parents.

Thanks for what you do.

I would like to see state universities forced to be held accountable for their ridiculous tuituon hikes every year regardless of economic conditions. If a kid graduates with a teaching degree and agrees to work ‘X’ amount of years for a public school, they should be given loan forgiveness to be covered by the university where the teacher graduated. It should not be subsidized by taxpayers. These student loans are rackets anyway where the only ones who win is the university for getting to jack up tuition every year & the lending institutions. A person who has a passion for a career in teaching should not be penalized financially by being saddled with school loan debt that takes a lifetime (if ever) to repay b/c the salaries are too low. Without the burden of drowning school loan debt, the teacher can better handle the lower salary they accept when choosing to be an educator. It would take a lot thought for a program like that to work but there needs to be a solution or why would a kid go into debt from school loans for a career that they know likely won’t allow them to pay back said loans?

 

[AvesEvo]

I'll just add that the HS I went to is majority Asian and I had a lot of Korean friends. For good or worse, there is so much pressure on the home front to perform scholastically that they end up doing just that. I did not have a tenth of the pressure most of them did, I remember one kid crying freshman year because he got straights As and 1 B+... on an interim. Not even a real report card. Some might argue that's unhealthy, but like you said they were all pushed to be the best students they could be.

When you don't have that kind of culture or structure, you're simply not going to see the same "results" regardless of how good a teacher is or how "smart" the kids are. Most issues in this country are layered...

1. I don't think good teachers get paid nearly enough, and I think bad teachers get paid way too much. I've got many friends who are teachers and every single one has multiple stories about "that" teacher who just totally sucks at their job. They are basically unfireable, because unions. Same reasons we can't get rid of bad cops. But! Without unions teachers would get paid even less and that would be worse. The issue is that the unions tend to protect the herd instead of advocating on behalf of the strongest water buffaloes and letting the others get eaten.

2. For awhile, DC spent more per pupil than anywhere in the country and had some of the worst results. You cannot just throw money at the problem. Which sort of undermines #1 being the principle cause. It's more that a re-allocation of money is needed than it is that "more" money is needed, IMO.

3. It is proven that people who are heavily involved in after school programs and have other structure do better than their peers that don't. IMO, emphasis needs to placed on fixing the issues outside of the classroom before you can tackle those inside. But our country is heading the opposite direction so I have little to no hope for that. I work with a number of Indian people at my engineering firm who have said that a huge emphasis is put on education for poor people as their "way out" of poverty. In the United States, emphasis is put on "hustling" or being an athlete or being a youtube star or whatever instead of on scholastic achievement as a silver bullet. There needs to be a societal shift for scholastic achievement to increase... we can't have everyone aspiring to be an Instagram model or Twitter activist or "influencer" or whatever the fuck this upcoming generation is currently obsessed with.

I teach students from an impoverished community from families that don’t give two shits about education and this is literally the plan for 95% of my students. A second issue is that these students are entitled, don’t know how to work and why should they? Many of my juniors havent passed a class since 6th grade so why should they all of a sudden have to work to pass now? LAX is also right in that there are many bad teachers who need to be gotten rid of, but I will say, it’s easy to become a bad teacher when your students are unbelievably disrespectful and you don’t get any support from the parents or administration.

 

[Circa]

Hahaha, you neg rep me for this? I'm not a student nor do I own a business, but sorry no one is joining your pity party

Yes sir! I will again. Uniformed population is the degradation of our society. I'm no teacher either. No need for pity

 

[BGIF]

Yes sir! I will again. Uniformed population is the degradation of our society. I'm no teacher either. No need for pity

Army, Navy, AF, Marines, Nurses, Waffle House employees, police, firefighters, EMTs, sports players, cheerleaders, airline employees, parochial school kids, ...

Is there a particular segment of the uniformed population that gets your particular disdain or is your disdain uniform?

In the early days of our society uniformed soldiers were usually as uninformed as the general population, hence the role of the elected representatives. Has society degraded from 1783 in this 24/7 news era? We have twitter!

 

[Legacy]

A good article on public investment in K-12 education focusing on funding cuts after the recession, broken down by states, and school funding sources, e.g. state, local and federal -

A Punishing Decade for School Funding (Center on Budget and Policy Priorities)

Two graphics -

Texas schools are in a financial crisis. In 2005 the Texas Supreme Court determined the ruled the school finance system unconstitutional. The Legislature decided to slash local property tax rates by one-third, raise business and cigarette taxes and to make up the difference in school funding, lawmakers created the Additional State Aid for Tax Reduction fund (ASATR). Even with spending cuts to make up for oil and gas revenue losses, the difference between property tax income loss and revenue from other taxes created a deficit estimated to be $23 billion over five years.

School funding then became the responsibility of local districts who were forced to raise local property taxes. And "property rich" districts sent tax money to the state, who would distribute it to poorer districts. School districts' funds from ASATR ranged 5% to 54% of their annual budgets, with most district getting about 30% of their budgets.
ASATR funding varied widely from year to year because it was heavily dependent on oil and gas revenue.

ASATR ended on Sept 1. The Texas House and Senate both passed bills for resolving school financing. The House bill provided $1.5 billion for schools and to revise funding formulas. The Senate bill cut that to $530 million with a "poison pill" of a private school option tuition subsidy. The House voted overwhelmingly for a conference committee. The Senate would not consider conferencing without the private school choice.

Recently, school districts have been cutting supplies, afterschool programs, using money set aside for capital improvements, while being hesitant to cut teaching positions. Meanwhile, district student population size is rising and some school districts have had to absorb those that have failed. Many of those districts cannot increase local property taxes because they are already at the maximum rate the state allows without the financing formula changes by the legislature. Now district will have to determine how to compensate for state funding that the legislature could not agree on.

From linked article above:

 

[NDohio]

There needs to be testing and accountability for teachers, but also common sense. Like you said, there should be either an even distribution or some grace given if not. I know a lot of people cringe about standardized testing, but it's really the only way to gauge apples to apples. If kids are tested equally (equal content and frequency), it would be easy enough to show improvement or decline year over year, or within the class year for students, teachers, schools, etc... In terms of stress, all jobs have stress around performance.... The means of measuring performance just needs to be consistent and fair. There also needs to be a way that grading for these tests is taken out of the teachers hands to ensure there's no cheating going on. I saw first hand the 2009 scandal in ATL. Crazy stuff.

Do the country's that are super successful in educating their population have standardized testing in order to grade their teachers? (I'll give you a hint - NO!) In Finland, often recognized as the best education system, the only standardized test they take is in their senior year to see how college ready the student is. In Germany they have testing but those test scores are not used to grade teachers - in fact the scores aren't made public. Those scores are used to help the government send necessary funding to the schools that have lower test scores and make it a focus to improve those scores.

Standardized testing in order to grade teachers is impossible to make fair, too many differences from state to state/district to district/classroom to classroom...

 

[Irish YJ]

Do the country's that are super successful in educating their population have standardized testing in order to grade their teachers? (I'll give you a hint - NO!) In Finland, often recognized as the best education system, the only standardized test they take is in their senior year to see how college ready the student is. In Germany they have testing but those test scores are not used to grade teachers - in fact the scores aren't made public. Those scores are used to help the government send necessary funding to the schools that have lower test scores and make it a focus to improve those scores.

Standardized testing in order to grade teachers is impossible to make fair, too many differences from state to state/district to district/classroom to classroom...

Not sure how much you know about Finland's educational system... Couple things...

-Finland is about the pickiest country when it comes to teachers. Only 10% of applicants are accepted. Best and brightest, most dedicated... Primary Education is the most competitive degree in Finland. And all teachers have to have a Masters.

-Comparing population and Demographics between the US and Finland are like comparing apples to acorns. Finland has less than 2% of the population of the US, and has very little race diversity. Where the US is about 60% white, Finland is 95+. 94% in Finland speak Finish with 60% of their population also able to speak basic English. In the US, only 80% speak English. However un-PC the topic is, it is a factor.

-The Fins have a whole different view on education, and a whole different system compared to the US. We're talking 1-12 compulsory here... Finland has 1-9 (from 7-16). At 16 kids make a choice to enter the workforce (less than 5%), vocational school (~57%), upper secondary which is a prep for college (~37%). While in 1-9 they have less classes (3-4 per day), less teachers (a lot of kids have the same teacher for 4-6 years), and less choices. Fewer teachers, fewer instructional hours, fewer classes, fewer topics, fewer choices, etc.. And yes, fewer tests.

-Last but not least, the Fins have a great respect for education. Parents value and respect teachers (largely given what the teachers have to accomplish to teach). And well, parents are probably better parents in Finland.... that last part is just my opinion. The rest of it is pure fact and data.

I'm not saying there aren't things we can learn from the Finish model, but saying we don't need testing to grade teachers because Finland doesn't is like saying the US police force doesn't need to carry guns because the British don't. Two very different situations.

 

[Irishize]

Not sure how much you know about Finland's educational system... Couple things...

-Finland is about the pickiest country when it comes to teachers. Only 10% of applicants are accepted. Best and brightest, most dedicated... Primary Education is the most competitive degree in Finland. And all teachers have to have a Masters.

-Comparing population and Demographics between the US and Finland are like comparing apples to acorns. Finland has less than 2% of the population of the US, and has very little race diversity. Where the US is about 60% white, Finland is 95+. 94% in Finland speak Finish with 60% of their population also able to speak basic English. In the US, only 80% speak English. However un-PC the topic is, it is a factor.

-The Fins have a whole different view on education, and a whole different system compared to the US. We're talking 1-12 compulsory here... Finland has 1-9 (from 7-16). At 16 kids make a choice to enter the workforce (less than 5%), vocational school (~57%), upper secondary which is a prep for college (~37%). While in 1-9 they have less classes (3-4 per day), less teachers (a lot of kids have the same teacher for 4-6 years), and less choices. Fewer teachers, fewer instructional hours, fewer classes, fewer topics, fewer choices, etc.. And yes, fewer tests.

-Last but not least, the Fins have a great respect for education. Parents value and respect teachers (largely given what the teachers have to accomplish to teach). And well, parents are probably better parents in Finland.... that last part is just my opinion. The rest of it is pure fact and data.

I'm not saying there aren't things we can learn from the Finish model, but saying we don't need testing to grade teachers because Finland doesn't is like saying the US police force doesn't need to carry guns because the British don't. Two very different situations.

Thank you. Whether it’s education, gun rights, or healthcare, comparing the US to Finland, Australia or the UK is never am apples-to-apples comparison. Just because Switzerland can offer “free” healthcare to it’s entire populace doesn’t mean the US can. Just b/c Australia was able to confiscate/buy back 700,000 guns doesn’t mean the US can confiscate 300,000,000 guns & you just highlighted why education in Finland can be comparable to that of the US.

 

[OhioIrish31]

As many of us are very aware we have a dilemma of epic proportions within the public school system.
I am currently residing in West Virginia and the teachers are on the verge of a full Strike. They currently are on a walk out.
The reason is insurance and the premiums over-riding a 4% raise over 3-4 years.
I have opinions about everything under our sun. Looking for facts over the whole of our nation and how this type of situation has been handled.

Teachers could get another job between 3:00pm and 5:00pm and then work the two months in the summer...this would help them pay the increase in premiums. Both mom and dad were high school teachers (Biology & Chemistry). Dad said stuff like this all the time. He hated tenure (thought you should prove yourself everyday like the rest of the world) and he refused to pay his union dues. I think he got away with that 'cuz he was the high school football coach as well.

 

[Irish YJ]

Thank you. Whether it’s education, gun rights, or healthcare, comparing the US to Finland, Australia or the UK is never am apples-to-apples comparison. Just because Switzerland can offer “free” healthcare to it’s entire populace doesn’t mean the US can. Just b/c Australia was able to confiscate/buy back 700,000 guns doesn’t mean the US can confiscate 300,000,000 guns & you just highlighted why education in Finland can be comparable to that of the US.

yup. but even so, there are learnings that can be taken from other countries/systems. I fear the US has too many issues for our dumb shit politicians to solve anytime soon. Both side's narratives are nothing more than barriers to getting something done. What's needed is some no nonsense non-PC honesty.