BYU

[wizards8507]

Why do you assume that the person would go to jail? Did the person from ND go to jail, did any Duke Lacrosse members spend 10+ years in jail?

The Duke lacrosse players were almost all wealthy and they had a superteam of attorneys. If they had been stuck with a public defender, they would have been talked into a sexual assault plea and served time.

Personally both options are bad, but you are comparing 1:1 and it isn't that way. We know that 1000s of women are raped every year and don't report it, we know that we have 100,000s of rape kits that aren't tested, etc. Yes a few people might be falsely accused and an even smaller number go to jail but is an extremely smaller number than the amount of people who are raped and don't report it.

How doe we know how many unreported rapes there are if they aren't reported? The estimates that are used to come up with those statistics include perverted notions of rape. Have you ever had sex with your wife after you've each had a few drinks? Based on the definitions those rape advocacy groups use, you and your wife would BOTH be "victims" of "unreported rape" in that scenario.

Think about that for a minute. Based on the current definition of the word "rape," any married couple that has a few drinks of alcohol are mutually unable to give consent and both members of the couple are simultaneously rapists and rape victims.

Look at BYU. In 2014 there was 1 reported rape on the BYU campus. If you think that there was really only 1 that year, and that there rules had nothing to do with many of the others not being reported, then I have some ocean front property down here in AZ to sell you.

You mus have a sad view of the world if you think there are all sorts of rapists running around everywhere.

 

[wizards8507]

Again, but it makes people significantly less likely to report the rape which leads to the rapist being able to do it again, which leads to the campus being significantly less safe for women. Do you not see the problem with your line of thinking?

It isn't just the woman that was raped that pays for it, what about the next woman who is raped by that guy?

Why are you completely ignoring the fact that the first victim still has the choice to do the right thing and face the consequences for her own violation of the honor code while ensuring that the committer of the far more egregious offense gets his just punishment? If you let a rapist go free so that you don't get a slap on the wrist from your university, that's a morally reprehensible decision.

EDIT: That sounded far harsher than I intended. We're talking in the abstract about a hypothetical victim. Surely, there are far bigger issues of compassion and healing that play into the statement above. However, that doesn't change the fact that reporting a rape is the "right thing to do."

 

[IrishLax]

Why do you assume that the person would go to jail? Did the person from ND go to jail, did any Duke Lacrosse members spend 10+ years in jail?

Brian Banks sure as hell did. And lost his entire career because of it.

ND guy recanted after growing a conscience... who knows what happens otherwise. Duke lacrosse players would've absolutely gone to jail if the woman hadn't turned out to be a sociopath and had her story fall apart.

 

[pkt77242]

Why are you completely ignoring the fact that the first victim still has the choice to do the right thing and face the consequences for her own violation of the honor code while ensuring that the committer of the far more egregious offense gets his just punishment? If you let a rapist go free so that you don't get a slap on the wrist from your university, that's a morally reprehensible decision.

I am not sure that getting expelled from the University counts as a slap on the wrist. If the punishment was community service, well I might agree with you.

 

[pkt77242]

There is no system that can both provide procedural fairness for the accused while simultaneously protecting the accuser enough that under-reporting won't be an issue. Yet another example of how the Sexual Revolution has been anything but "liberating".

Huh, you have to explain that one.

 

[pkt77242]

Brian Banks sure as hell did. And lost his entire career because of it.

ND guy recanted after growing a conscience... who knows what happens otherwise. Duke lacrosse players would've absolutely gone to jail if the woman hadn't turned out to be a sociopath and had her story fall apart.

Agreed. I just feel that you are missing the forest for the trees, though I respect your position.

I agree that we need to find better ways to protect the rights of the accused, I won't argue that at all. I think that we as a society also need to do a better job of supporting people that have been raped and make it easier for them to come forward (not make it easier to prosecute the defendant, just come forward).

 

[wizards8507]

I am not sure that getting expelled from the University counts as a slap on the wrist. If the punishment was community service, well I might agree with you.

Maybe it's you who didn't read the article. I noted three examples. One student decided not to return to BYU on her own. A second student received no punishment after an investigation. The fate of the third student is left up in the air. Considering the biased nature with which the article was written, you can bet that if anyone actually had been expelled in a situation like this, it would have come up.

By the way, Notre Dame has almost the exact same honor code. So you might want to edit your OP to say "fuck BYU and fuck Notre Dame, too."

The University embraces the Catholic Church’s teaching that a genuine and complete expression of love through sex requires a commitment to a total living and sharing together of two persons in marriage. Consequently, students who engage in sexual union outside of marriage may be subject to referral to the University Conduct Process.

DISCIPLINARY STATUS OUTCOMES

Disciplinary Probation
Defined as a specified period of observation and evaluation of a student’s conduct. Any violation of University or residence hall policy committed by a student on Disciplinary Probation is a serious violation and could result in dismissal from the University. A student placed on Disciplinary Probation may not participate in an international study abroad program or any other off-site University academic program during the period of his/her probation.

Dismissal with the Opportunity to Apply for Readmission
A separation from the University which provides the student an opportunity to apply for readmission after a specified period of time and after meeting all conditions specified at the time of dismissal. An application to the University is required to seek readmission and readmission is not guaranteed. The University reserves the right to consider in its sole discretion, as a part of a student’s application for readmission, any pending and/or unresolved reports of alleged misconduct.

Permanent Dismissal
A permanent separation from the University with no opportunity for readmission.

 

[pkt77242]

Maybe it's you who didn't read the article. I noted three examples. One student decided not to return to BYU on her own. A second student received no punishment after an investigation. The fate of the third student is left up in the air. Considering the biased nature with which the article was written, you can bet that if anyone actually had been expelled in a situation like this, it would have come up.

By the way, Notre Dame has almost the exact same honor code. So you might want to edit your OP to say "fuck BYU and fuck Notre Dame, too."

How often has ND ever kicked someone out for just having sex?

From my understanding it doesn't happen (or it is very rare). Look at Brent, he is fathering a child out of wedlock and he isn't being expelled. At BYU you can damn bet that he would be gone.

Having the policy and actually using it are two different things.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Explain.

Huh, you have to explain that one.

There's a fast-growing scientific consensus that pornography is grave public health hazard. The overall American illegitimacy rate is ~40%, while it's over 50% for Hispanics and over 70% for African-Americans. The American divorce rate hovers around 50%. The native fertility rate of virtually every Western nation is significantly lower than replacement levels, and is continuing to drop. In short, there is a mountain of sociological evidence regarding the horrific toll the Sexual Revolution continues to exact on our societies, and yet it remains a sacred cow that Progressives defend with religious fervor.

For instance, in this thread everyone immediately fell into the typically reductive Marxist bullsh!t of creating a false dichotomy, labeling it as virtuous victims v evil oppressors, and rabidly defending their chosen side: "Fuck the rape-enabling patriachy!" v. "Fuck the man-hating illiberal rad-fems and the spineless administrators that ruin innocent male lives!"

No one suggested that, gee, maybe there can be no positive outcome when we encourage alcohol- and hormone-fueled adolescents to engage in casual sex in the first place? Nah, much better to educate them by fitting condoms on bananas, handing out free birth control pills, and giving them to stern reminder that as they embark on a magical journey of sexual experimentation and self-discovery, that they remember how important "consent" is.

 

[phgreek]

Fact 3: The raped girl will not report Fact 2 because of Fact 1. So, some asshole who sexually assaulted someone will now go unpunished because it is an absolute MUST that the school punish a college girl for underage drinking, because it is such despicable and unacceptable behavior. Seems a bit out of whack, no? This policy has not been thought through by BYU. This makes their campus a far more dangerous place for young women.

This one is really tough. Yes Drinking is a pretty big deal to LDS folks...sorry it doesn't fit your world view.

Now...Can there be some discretion utilized by the honor board...Of course. My view has always been that as faith-based universities, they need to look at how we best help people to get right...more holistic. In the scheme of things I think we can address honor code infractions. Indeed someone who drinks, has broken the code...and said person needs to face the music. However, If said person drank, and then got raped...well they need support and counseling far more than they need to be reminded of their transgressions. That doesn't mean a rape victim gets a free pass on drinking....but I do think we need to approach that discipline differently...If the purpose of discipline is to give a person time and reason to question themselves, and ultimately change behaviors...it is wasted on a rape victim if you first don't help them get right. I think it is timing and choice of discipline that matters.

 

[GoIrish41]

This one is really tough. Yes Drinking is a pretty big deal to LDS folks...sorry it doesn't fit your world view.

Now...Can there be some discretion utilized by the honor board...Of course. My view has always been that as faith-based universities, they need to look at how we best help people to get right...more holistic. In the scheme of things I think we can address honor code infractions. Indeed someone who drinks, has broken the code...and said person needs to face the music. However, If said person drank, and then got raped...well they need support and counseling far more than they need to be reminded of their transgressions. That doesn't mean a rape victim gets a free pass on drinking....but I do think we need to approach that discipline differently...If the purpose of discipline is to give a person time and reason to question themselves, and ultimately change behaviors...it is wasted on a rape victim if you first don't help them get right. I think it is timing and choice of discipline that matters.

I get that its a big deal to LDS folks ... but certainly not as big a deal as rape. My point is that in their effort to punish a lesser "sin" they will be allowing a far worse one to go unpunished.

 

[wizards8507]

I get that its a big deal to LDS folks ... but certainly not as big a deal as rape. My point is that in their effort to punish a lesser "sin" they will be allowing a far worse one to go unpunished.

It's not an either / or proposition. Enforcing the honor code and prosecuting rape are not mutually exclusive. If the honor code is violated and a rape occurs, enforce the honor code and prosecute the rape. Obviously rape is far worse, so the punishment will be far harsher.

 

[woolybug25]

This one is really tough. Yes Drinking is a pretty big deal to LDS folks...sorry it doesn't fit your world view.

Except that one is... Well... An actual crime?

I think its disingenuous to attack Goirish as if he isn't naive to religious freedoms when he is simply saying that rape and drinking are not equal. That's not "world view", that's using religion as a basis of marginalizing an actual violent crime.

 

[GoIrish41]

It's not an either / or proposition. Enforcing the honor code and prosecuting rape are not mutually exclusive. If the honor code is violated and a rape occurs, enforce the honor code and prosecute the rape. Obviously rape is far worse, so the punishment will be far harsher.

But it is "either / or" because the policy will keep girls from reporting that they have been sexually assaulted so they don't get kicked out of school. If a young woman faces a life-altering punishment if she reports a life-altering sexual violation against her, then I suspect many, if not most, will opt to let just one terrible thing happen to them instead of two.

 

[NDgradstudent]

If I were at BYU (as a non-Mormon) I would support an honor code 'amnesty' for proven rape cases, but I don't believe in ordinary criminal cases crimes are regularly ignored because they were committed by someone who was later raped. If BYU's honor code is so important to the school that they want to enforce it no matter what, the federal government really has no business objecting.

In addition, these assumptions about rape being underreported at BYU are all based on the dubious claim that "one in five" (or is it one in three?) women get raped in college, so any school with lower figures is scaring victims off.

Maybe there is just less rape at BYU than elsewhere, because the students basically don't drink, are religious, better-behaved in general, etc.? Slate readers would probably not accept this, because liberals generally hold Mormons in contempt. (You'll recall the theory peddled by liberals in 2008 that Mormons in Utah tricked CA voters into repealing the gay marriage law. Or something.)

It's not as if students who choose to go to BYU don't know what the rules are. Don't violate the honor code, and there is no problem.

 

[phgreek]

Except that one is... Well... An actual crime?

I think its disingenuous to attack Goirish as if he isn't naive to religious freedoms when he is simply saying that rape and drinking are not equal. That's not "world view", that's using religion as a basis of marginalizing an actual violent crime.

...Seemed like a little of both really, I got his point, but it seemed to me he was being sarcastic about how dumb it is to punish college aged folks for drinking...which is a world view...of sorts. In that case I think it is OK to make a point how foundational the no booze deal is to LDS folks.

anyway, no one set out to create an honor code that marginalizes violent crime. So no one is using a religion as a basis for marginalizing violent crime...Now if an unintended consequence is that the honor code causes women to avoid reporting being raped...I'd say the problem lies in discretion used by those enforcing it. As I said, folks on disciplinary boards, especially those representing religious institutions need to take a more holistic approach to the discipline...but I don't think they have to ignore transgressions either.

 

[wizards8507]

But it is "either / or" because the policy will keep girls from reporting that they have been sexually assaulted so they don't get kicked out of school.

I'm really not sure what you're missing here. The girls would not be punished for reporting sexual assault. They would be punished because they violated the honor code. The assault has literally nothing to do with whether or not the honor code was violated. If you don't want to get in trouble for violating the honor code, the answer is not to keep silent about rape. The answer is to not violate the honor code in the first place. Alternatively, don't go to a school with an honor code that you intend on violating.

There's literally no intellectual difference between what you're suggesting and a criminal claiming he should get off on his robbery charge because he was assaulted when he left the place he was robbing. Being the victim of a crime does not negate committing one yourself. No, underage drinking is not anywhere in the same stratosphere as rape, but the severity of the latter does not invalidate the fact that the former is a violation of the BYU honor code.

Separately, there's no evidence that this has ever actually happened. Notre Dame's official policy is no different than BYU's, but all the evidence indicates that administrators use discretion when pursuing these potential courses of discipline.

 

[NDinL.A.]

That's not BYU or anybody's fault. If you are raped, report your rape!

Dude, it's not that easy! If it was, it wouldn't be so damn under-reported. Like fightingirish said, I'd go jughead if I read more insane comments like above, so I'm out. I will say though, I've done a shit-load of research on rape, and the BYU way of doing things is shockingly ass-backwards and absolutely stops women from reporting rape at a much higher level because it deters women from reporting a disgusting felony because of fear of being castigated for a (REALLY) minor violation in comparison. It's a joke.

 

[DONTH8]

Now...Can there be some discretion utilized by the honor board...Of course. My view has always been that as faith-based universities, they need to look at how we best help people to get right...more holistic. In the scheme of things I think we can address honor code infractions. Indeed someone who drinks, has broken the code...and said person needs to face the music. However, If said person drank, and then got raped...well they need support and counseling far more than they need to be reminded of their transgressions. That doesn't mean a rape victim gets a free pass on drinking....but I do think we need to approach that discipline differently...If the purpose of discipline is to give a person time and reason to question themselves, and ultimately change behaviors...it is wasted on a rape victim if you first don't help them get right. I think it is timing and choice of discipline that matters.

As a BYU student I've had this argument shoved down my throat for the past two weeks. I agree with both Wiz and phgreek though. I don't find fault with the honor code being involved. No girl has been expelled for being raped, and far more times than not, are they not expelled for the behavior they were doing before. Only under extreme cases that I have heard where illegal drugs (coicaine is the only one I've even heard of) bring involved was the reason they were expelled.

Honestly I believe the fear the girls have is coming out and admitting they were drinking (or doing anything else "in appropriate" to friends, parents, and faculty. In the LDS faith, sometimes the judgements of others are more demeaning than the judgements we receive. I think this fear of embarrassment is very intense, in which case it's the student and faculty's fault for not showing love and support.

For this reason I agree with phgreek, we. need to advise them that they will be loved and cared for. But the school unfortunately will not give statistics of # of students caught drinking and how many were expelled as this would obviously lead way to many more cases of honor code being broken.

Tough situation, but I've learned a lot about this reading your guys' viewpoints so thank you

 

[NDinL.A.]

It's not as if students who choose to go to BYU don't know what the rules are. Don't violate the honor code, and there is no problem.

Right, because drinking is the same as rape, and should be treated as such, thus deterring women from reporting rape.

Shocking that you of all people would side with BYU (and wiz).

 

[GoIrish41]

I'm really not sure what you're missing here. The girls would not be punished for reporting sexual assault. They would be punished because they violated the honor code. The assault has literally nothing to do with whether or not the honor code was violated. If you don't want to get in trouble for violating the honor code, the answer is not to keep silent about rape. The answer is to not violate the honor code in the first place. Alternatively, don't go to a school with an honor code that you intend on violating.

There's literally no intellectual difference between what you're suggesting and a criminal claiming he should get off on his robbery charge because he was assaulted when he left the place he was robbing. Being the victim of a crime does not negate committing one yourself. No, underage drinking is not anywhere in the same stratosphere as rape, but the severity of the latter does not invalidate the fact that the former is a violation of the BYU honor code.

Separately, there's no evidence that this has ever actually happened. Notre Dame's official policy is no different than BYU's, but all the evidence indicates that administrators use discretion when pursuing these potential courses of discipline.

If only the world was as black and white as you seem to think it is .... If you sped up in an intersection to "catch" the yellow light, and a drunk driver blows through a red and t-bones your car, should both be punished? Dude, we are talking about the gulf between rape and underage drinking. She was trying to beat the yellow and he was driving drunk and smashed into her. Why would you even add to a girls trauma after being raped with such a trivial infraction? In that intersection the yellow light runner never gets the ticket.

 

[phgreek]

If only the world was as black and white as you seem to think it is .... If you sped up in an intersection to "catch" the yellow light, and a drunk driver blows through a red and t-bones your car, should both be punished? Dude, we are talking about the gulf between rape and underage drinking. She was trying to beat the yellow and he was driving drunk and smashed into her. Why would you even add to a girls trauma after being raped with such a trivial infraction? In that intersection the yellow light runner never gets the ticket.

Welp...I can tell you your traffic example pretty much happened to me. Three of us in my friends truck...all of us had been drinking. Another car comes across the line...hits us, I ended up getting ejected...150 stitches in various places...road rash like I've never seen...concusion, various injuries to neck and shoulder....and I still got cited for the underaged consumption. I'd still choose to do that 10 times before being raped...but law enforcement doesn't overlook much either.

 

[NorthDakota]

If only the world was as black and white as you seem to think it is .... If you sped up in an intersection to "catch" the yellow light, and a drunk driver blows through a red and t-bones your car, should both be punished? Dude, we are talking about the gulf between rape and underage drinking. She was trying to beat the yellow and he was driving drunk and smashed into her. Why would you even add to a girls trauma after being raped with such a trivial infraction? In that intersection the yellow light runner never gets the ticket.

TIL: Getting in trouble for underage drinking is a traumatic experience.

 

[Shamrock Theories]

Why is anyone expecting BYU to be reasonable?

That place is a bastion of 19th century idiocy.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Why is anyone expecting BYU to be reasonable?

That place is a bastion of 19th century idiocy.

We wouldn't tolerate a comment like this about ND/ Catholicism, so please refrain from doing so for BYU/ Mormonism. A current BYU student contributed to this thread 5 posts up, and having grown up in a heavily LDS part of Arizona, I can attest that there are plenty of Mormons who support ND; not to mention those who represent the Irish on the football field.

Might want to stick to football-related threads if you can't be civil regarding political or religious conservatives.

 

[Shamrock Theories]

We wouldn't tolerate a comment like this about ND/ Catholicism, so please refrain from doing so for BYU/ Mormonism. A current BYU student contributed to this thread 5 posts up, and having grown up in a heavily LDS part of Arizona, I can attest that there are plenty of Mormons who support ND; not to mention those who represent the Irish on the football field.

Might want to stick to football-related threads if you can't be civil regarding political or religious conservatives.

Shrug

The fact that any institution (BYU or otherwise) would care about punishing a (alleged) victim of a violent felony for underage drinking or whatever is just wrong.

Heck, it's against BYU policy to wear shorts on campus. No italics. Would they punish a rape victim for wearing shorts at the time of the assault? Maybe she was wearing capris? Or flip-flops?

All are against school policy after all.

 

[DONTH8]

Shrug

The fact that any institution (BYU or otherwise) would care about punishing a (alleged) victim of a violent felony for underage drinking or whatever is just wrong.

Heck, it's against BYU policy to wear shorts on campus. No italics. Would they punish a rape victim for wearing shorts at the time of the assault? Maybe she was wearing capris? Or flip-flops?

All are against school policy after all.

Just to clarify, those rules do not apply to BYU-Provo where this problem is being discussed. BYU Idaho still practice those policies though. We're not that strict here (thankfully haha). No hard feelings by the way towards anyone who has a negative opinion of BYU. I'm not saying we're perfect in what the institution decides and my feelings aren't hurt at all.

 

[Shamrock Theories]

Just to clarify, those rules do not apply to BYU-Provo where this problem is being discussed. BYU Idaho still practice those policies though. We're not that strict here (thankfully haha). No hard feelings by the way towards anyone who has a negative opinion of BYU. I'm not saying we're perfect in what the institution decides and my feelings aren't hurt at all.

Huh, my mistake, I got that right from the BYU website.

I don't think BYU is trying to oppress anyone/be evil/etc, like Baylor.

And it's BYU's business (and its students) what the codes of behavior, dress, whatever should be.

Just feel like the priorities are out of whack in this specific type of situation.

 

[GoIrish41]

Welp...I can tell you your traffic example pretty much happened to me. Three of us in my friends truck...all of us had been drinking. Another car comes across the line...hits us, I ended up getting ejected...150 stitches in various places...road rash like I've never seen...concusion, various injuries to neck and shoulder....and I still got cited for the underaged consumption. I'd still choose to do that 10 times before being raped...but law enforcement doesn't overlook much either.

I think my example and your experience were not as alike as you say. You and your buds were drinking and driving underage. I was discussing someone speeding up so they beat a red light and getting hit by a drunk driver who ran a light. My example of the driver who got hit was far less significant and as I described it, I have serious doubts that the driver would be charged with anything. I was trying to think of an example in which the difference was as pronounced as a rape and underage drinking (difficult to do, I must admit). Rebutting with a more serious crime changes the scenario. Not unlike wiz's robbing a gas station is a whole different thing than drinking a beer when you are 20.

 

[phgreek]

I think my example and your experience were not as alike as you say. You and your buds were drinking and driving underage. I was discussing someone speeding up so they beat a red light and getting hit by a drunk driver who ran a light. My example of the driver who got hit was far less significant and as I described it, I have serious doubts that the driver would be charged with anything. I was trying to think of an example in which the difference was as pronounced as a rape and underage drinking (difficult to do, I must admit). Rebutting with a more serious crime changes the scenario. Not unlike wiz's robbing a gas station is a whole different thing than drinking a beer when you are 20.

...saw it as group A was injured based on Group B's conduct (drunk driving or reckless driving), but because of the injury to Group A, it was found group A did something illegal to a far lesser degree (drinking or speeding), and Group A was somehow given a break on punishment because they got torn up...just saying it didn't work out like that for me, and I wouldn't assume any law enforcement person would let anything they had knowledge of go because you got torn up. The discretion to let you off lies with the DA which = Honor Board...but they are indeed going to investigate...everything that gets referred to them. If folks have a problem with that...man I don't know what to tell you. I think all of our hopes are that at some point very early in the process, someone takes a holistic look at the torn up person and says, hey lets get you back to yourself, no you aren't getting hammered for anything you did, but yes we will discuss your behavior after you are back on your feet, and we have a chance to do some fact finding, and we may have you take xyz seminar. Thats how things should work in my view.