BYU

[pkt77242]

BYU’s honor code violates survivors and makes rape likelier.

At the April rape awareness conference, meanwhile, BYU’s Title IX Coordinator Sarah Westerberg defended her office’s right to involve the Honor Code Office. She went on to say, according to several students who attended the event, that her office would “not apologize“ for referring abuse victims for discipline, while simultaneously acknowledging that such a practice could have a “chilling” effect on sex crime reporting.

Fuck BYU.

 

[GoIrish41]

BYU’s honor code violates survivors and makes rape likelier.



Fuck BYU.

What a dreadful policy!

 

[wizards8507]

This is bullshit reporting and completely misleads the reader about what the policy entails. Victims do not get punished for the act of being raped, as the article strongly implies. Rather, the punishment would be for violating the honor code independently of the rape. The author wants victim-hood to be a free pass for unrelated (or tangentially related) violations.

It's like if you rob a gas station and then when you're leaving, a driver hits you with his car and drives away. Your status as a victim of a hit-and-run doesn't invalidate the fact the you just robbed the gas station.

 

[pkt77242]

This is bullshit reporting and completely misleads the reader about what the policy entails. Victims do not get punished for the act of being raped, as the article strongly implies. Rather, the punishment would be for violating the honor code independently of the rape. The author wants victim-hood to be a free pass for unrelated (or tangentially related) violations.

It's like if you rob a gas station and then when you're leaving, a driver hits you with his car and drives away. Your status as a victim of a hit-and-run doesn't invalidate the fact the you just robbed the gas station.

Really that is your comparison? Talk about bullshit. Yes because robbing a store on a comparable level to having a guy in your bedroom or having a drink with them (etc.). Come on Wiz even you must see how this policy makes women less safe.

The problem is that it makes rape victims less likely to come forward, which means that rapists are less likely to get punished (also is the Title IX office even allowed to share that information?) and just makes the campus less safe.

 

[fightingirish26]

This is bullshit reporting and completely misleads the reader about what the policy entails. Victims do not get punished for the act of being raped, as the article strongly implies. Rather, the punishment would be for violating the honor code independently of the rape. The author wants victim-hood to be a free pass for unrelated (or tangentially related) violations.

It's like if you rob a gas station and then when you're leaving, a driver hits you with his car and drives away. Your status as a victim of a hit-and-run doesn't invalidate the fact the you just robbed the gas station.

this is a shocking comment

 

[IrishLax]

Really that is your comparison? Talk about bullshit. Yes because robbing a store on a comparable level to having a guy in your bedroom or having a drink with them (etc.). Come on Wiz even you must see how this policy makes women less safe.

The problem is that it makes rape victims less likely to come forward, which means that rapists are less likely to get punished (also is the Title IX office even allowed to share that information?) and just makes the campus less safe.

It's really not though. In his example, the robber would be less likely to report the hit-and-run because he'd probably be caught for his crimes. But if he was going to be given a free pass for his crimes, he'd definitely report it... and/or make something up to be a "victim" and receive the shielding for his prior actions.

To be very clear, this is not some hypothetical. The entire Duke lacrosse rape hoax started because the "victim" wanted shielding from prosecution for her illegal actions that night, so when the police started questioning her about her conduct, drug use, abandoning her child, etc. she made up being raped so they would focus on that, stop pursuing her illegal activities, and instead classify her as a "victim."

Going back to another era, white women used to claim rape when caught sleeping with a black man in order to avoid the public shaming that comes with that "honor code violation." This led to lynching of innocent men.

Let's try this one under the hypothetical that all rape victims should get a free pass... you're a Mormon girl at BYU who gets drunk and sleeps with someone. You can either A) say you were raped, stay in school, and be classified a "victim" and "survivor" or B) be disgraced, embarrassed in front of your community, and kicked out of school. How many girls are going to lie for the free pass instead of opting to ruin their lives?

Now for a personal example... when I was in school, a guy who was very good friends with the main group of girls we hung out with got caught hooking up with another dude. He originally claimed rape, because that was easier than coming out of the closet and owning a ResLife violation. Situation turned into an absolute shit show.

My general point is that this kind of thing is not cut and dry, and people need to appreciate all the different angles. Because there are literally hundreds of historical examples of people fabricating rape claims to save themselves from shame/consequences.

 

[pkt77242]

It's really not though. In his example, the robber would be less likely to report the hit-and-run because he'd probably be caught for his crimes. But if he was going to be given a free pass for his crimes, he'd definitely report it... and/or make something up to be a "victim" and receive the shielding for his prior actions.

To be very clear, this is not some hypothetical. The entire Duke lacrosse rape hoax started because the "victim" wanted shielding from prosecution for her illegal actions that night, so when the police started questioning her about her conduct, drug use, abandoning her child, etc. she made up being raped so they would focus on that, stop pursuing her illegal activities, and instead classify her as a "victim."

Going back to another era, white women used to claim rape when caught sleeping with a black man in order to avoid the public shaming that comes with that "honor code violation." This led to lynching of innocent men.

Let's try this one under the hypothetical that all rape victims should get a free pass... you're a Mormon girl at BYU who gets drunk and sleeps with someone. You can either A) say you were raped, stay in school, and be classified a "victim" and "survivor" or B) be disgraced, embarrassed in front of your community, and kicked out of school. How many girls are going to lie for the free pass instead of opting to ruin their lives?

Now for a personal example... when I was in school, a guy who was very good friends with the main group of girls we hung out with got caught hooking up with another dude. He originally claimed rape, because that was easier than coming out of the closet and owning a ResLife violation. Situation turned into an absolute shit show.

My general point is that this kind of thing is not cut and dry, and people need to appreciate all the different angles. Because there are literally hundreds of historical examples of people fabricating rape claims to save themselves from shame/consequences.

For BYU it is cut and dry.

Also many of the examples happened off-campus and thus the rape victim just could have not said anything and they wouldn't have been in trouble. They went and reported the rape of their own volition not to avoid punishment. I can understand if you are caught and then claim rape, that might make more sense (not saying that they are or are not lying), but that doesn't seem to apply to any of these cases.

For BYU it lowers the rapes reported (which makes them look better). It makes the campus less safe.


ETA: Also it is more like underage drinking than robbing a store. Finally some universities will even overlook the underage drinking. Lets say a 19 year old comes to report a sexual assault and smells like alcohol, some campuses will overlook punishing the underage drinking because they want the "bigger" crimes reported.

 

[fightingirish26]

It's really not though. In his example, the robber would be less likely to report the hit-and-run because he'd probably be caught for his crimes. But if he was going to be given a free pass for his crimes, he'd definitely report it... and/or make something up to be a "victim" and receive the shielding for his prior actions.

To be very clear, this is not some hypothetical. The entire Duke lacrosse rape hoax started because the "victim" wanted shielding from prosecution for her illegal actions that night, so when the police started questioning her about her conduct, drug use, abandoning her child, etc. she made up being raped so they would focus on that, stop pursuing her illegal activities, and instead classify her as a "victim."

Going back to another era, white women used to claim rape when caught sleeping with a black man in order to avoid the public shaming that comes with that "honor code violation." This led to lynching of innocent men.

Let's try this one under the hypothetical that all rape victims should get a free pass... you're a Mormon girl at BYU who gets drunk and sleeps with someone. You can either A) say you were raped, stay in school, and be classified a "victim" and "survivor" or B) be disgraced, embarrassed in front of your community, and kicked out of school. How many girls are going to lie for the free pass instead of opting to ruin their lives?

Now for a personal example... when I was in school, a guy who was very good friends with the main group of girls we hung out with got caught hooking up with another dude. He originally claimed rape, because that was easier than coming out of the closet and owning a ResLife violation. Situation turned into an absolute shit show.

My general point is that this kind of thing is not cut and dry, and people need to appreciate all the different angles. Because there are literally hundreds of historical examples of people fabricating rape claims to save themselves from shame/consequences.

It is cut and dry though. Just because there are examples of people abusing the system by fabricating stories to avoid their own consequences, doesn't mean that it is incredibly dangerous to have a system in place that DISCOURAGES RAPE VICTIMS FROM COMING FORWARD.

 

[IrishLax]

For BYU it is cut and dry.

Also many of the examples happened off-campus and thus the rape victim just could have not said anything and they wouldn't have been in trouble. They went and reported the rape of their own volition not to avoid punishment. I can understand if you are caught and then claim rape, that might make more sense (not saying that they are or are not lying), but that doesn't seem to apply to any of these cases.

For BYU it lowers the rapes reported (which makes them look better). It makes the campus less safe.

No. It's not. And I gave multiple real life crystal clear examples of things that have actually happened as to why all "rape amnesty" policies have issues.

1. Duke lacrosse, maybe the most famous fake rape case of our time, happened because of attempted amnesty for being a rape victim.

2. White women getting black men lynched so they don't have to face consequences for sleeping with a "negro."

3. A kid at Notre Dame who fabricated a rape claim literally to get out of an honor code violation.

And then I gave a hypothetical of what could happen at BYU.

You didn't address a single one of the situations I pointed out that all clearly show the risks of providing honor code amnesty at a place like BYU.

 

[fightingirish26]

No. It's not. And I gave multiple real life crystal clear examples of things that have actually happened as to why all "rape amnesty" policies have issues.

1. Duke lacrosse, maybe the most famous fake rape case of our time, happened because of attempted amnesty for being a rape victim.

2. White women getting black men lynched so they don't have to face consequences for sleeping with a "negro."

3. A kid at Notre Dame who fabricated a rape claim literally to get out of an honor code violation.

And then I gave a hypothetical of what could happen at BYU.

You didn't address a single one of the situations I pointed out that all clearly show the risks of providing honor code amnesty at a place like BYU.

Did you read the article?

 

[IrishLax]

It is cut and dry though. Just because there are examples of people abusing the system by fabricating stories to avoid their own consequences, doesn't mean that it is incredibly dangerous to have a system in place that DISCOURAGES RAPE VICTIMS FROM COMING FORWARD.

No shit. Did I ever say that BYU's system worked well?

What exactly is hard about appreciating the fact that you want - complete honor code amnesty if you claim rape - has obvious, proven consequences as well?

 

[pkt77242]

No. It's not. And I gave multiple real life crystal clear examples of things that have actually happened as to why all "rape amnesty" policies have issues.

1. Duke lacrosse, maybe the most famous fake rape case of our time, happened because of attempted amnesty for being a rape victim.

2. White women getting black men lynched so they don't have to face consequences for sleeping with a "negro."

3. A kid at Notre Dame who fabricated a rape claim literally to get out of an honor code violation.

And then I gave a hypothetical of what could happen at BYU.

You didn't address a single one of the situations I pointed out that all clearly show the risks of providing honor code amnesty at a place like BYU.

Really Lax?

How about the thousands of women who don't report rape because they are shamed for it? We know that rape is severely under reported. Current estimates are that something like 35% of rapes are reported. I wonder why.

You gave 2 recent examples and 1 from a long time ago. While they do show the harm, there are thousands of women who don't report rape (for various reasons, not just because they are shamed for it).

The difference is that while yes there will be some people who falsely report rape it is significantly smaller than the amount of people who won't report it do to rules like this.

 

[ACamp1900]

Now for a personal example... when I was in school, a guy who was very good friends with the main group of girls we hung out with got caught hooking up with another dude. He originally claimed rape, because that was easier than coming out of the closet and owning a ResLife violation. Situation turned into an absolute shit show.

I'm sorry you had to go through that.....

 

[fightingirish26]

No shit. Did I ever say that BYU's system worked well?

What exactly is hard about appreciating the fact that you want - complete honor code amnesty if you claim rape - has obvious, proven consequences as well?

The potential for people abusing their amnesty is far outweighed by the danger it places rape victims under, and it's not even remotely close as far as I am concerned.

 

[IrishLax]

Really Lax?

How about the thousands of women who don't report rape because they are shamed for it? We know that rape is severely under reported. Current estimates are that something like 35% of rapes are reported. I wonder why.

You gave 2 recent examples and 1 from a long time ago. While they do show the harm, there are thousands of women who don't report rape (for various reasons, not just because they are shamed for it).

The difference is that while yes there will be some people who falsely report rape it is significantly smaller than the amount of people who won't report it do to rules like this.

The two things people always go to when someone carefully bring up "hey so there are actually some drawbacks to overzealous policy that completely shields all "victims" from all consequences and assumes guilt in the accused..." are:
1) Yeah but that doesn't matter if the lives of a few men are ruined because rape is under reported anyways and only a small percentage of claims are definitively proven to be false.
2) NO VICTIM BLAMING!!!

No one here has started yelling about number 2, which means we're still actually discussing the pros/cons of BYU's policy and not just blathering about politically correct talking points. So that's a positive.

Personally, I got woke during Duke lacrosse that people can and will makeup whatever they can to get themselves out of a bad situation. Then that was reinforced when I saw a dude at ND literally try to ruin someone else's life rather than face consequences for breaking ResLife. And then my fiance knows Brian Banks (Google him up if you don't know him) which is just yet another example of someone getting their life absolutely ruined over a false claim.

I know many of you don't know a single person who has had to deal with false accusations, but it is some serious shit. It's an old adage that it is better that ten criminals go free than one innocent person be convicted and that's how I feel here. Note from teh article:

Then there is Madeline MacDonald, who was sexually assaulted as an 18-year-old freshman at BYU by a man she met on an online dating site. Unlike Barney, she reported the assault to the school’s Title IX office. That same day, she says, BYU’s Honor Code Office received a copy of the report. That office promptly launched an investigation into MacDonald’s possible honor code violations. She ultimately faced no discipline under the honor code, in part because—as she has consistently maintained—she never violated it.

I'm not going to apologize for disliking a system where women would be incentivized to make false rape claims to get out of trouble, especially when the current system at least ostensibly allows someone who didn't break the honor code a fair hearing.

 

[IrishLax]

The potential for people abusing their amnesty is far outweighed by the danger it places rape victims under, and it's not even remotely close as far as I am concerned.

That's your opinion. And, in my opinion, it's a pretty darn bad one that lacks either historical or modern context.

 

[wizards8507]

The potential for people abusing their amnesty is far outweighed by the danger it places rape victims under, and it's not even remotely close as far as I am concerned.

It doesn't place a rape victim under ANY danger whatsoever.

Scenario: Girl gets drunk at a party and is sexually assaulted thereafter.

Fact 1: Girl got drunk, a violation of the BYU honor code.
Fact 2: Girl was sexually assaulted.

There is absolutely nothing in the truth of Fact 2 that invalidates Fact 1. It happened, period, and it happened whether or not Fact 2 happened thereafter. The consequences of Fact 1 are a violation of the BYU honor code. The consequences of Fact 2 are that a felony was committed and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law in the state of Utah. Neither fact has anything to do with the other.

ETA: Lax is 100% correct comparing this to Duke lacrosse. In fact, this policy would institutionalize false rape accusations. If the falsely accused are white, conservative, and upper-middle class, all the better. Everyone should check out the 30 for 30 "Fantastic Lies."

 

[fightingirish26]

This thread is going to turn me into Jughed, so I'm out

 

[GoIrish41]

It doesn't place a rape victim under ANY danger whatsoever.

Scenario: Girl gets drunk at a party and is sexually assaulted thereafter.

Fact 1: Girl got drunk, a violation of the BYU honor code.
Fact 2: Girl was sexually assaulted.

There is absolutely nothing in the truth of Fact 2 that invalidates Fact 1. It happened, period, and it happened whether or not Fact 2 happened thereafter. The consequences of Fact 1 are a violation of the BYU honor code. The consequences of Fact 2 are that a felony was committed and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law in the state of Utah. Neither fact has anything to do with the other.

ETA: Lax is 100% correct comparing this to Duke lacrosse. In fact, this policy would institutionalize false rape accusations. If the falsely accused are white, conservative, and upper-middle class, all the better. Everyone should check out the 30 for 30 "Fantastic Lies."

Fact 3: The raped girl will not report Fact 2 because of Fact 1. So, some asshole who sexually assaulted someone will now go unpunished because it is an absolute MUST that the school punish a college girl for underage drinking, because it is such despicable and unacceptable behavior. Seems a bit out of whack, no? This policy has not been thought through by BYU. This makes their campus a far more dangerous place for young women.

 

[pkt77242]

The two things people always go to when someone carefully bring up "hey so there are actually some drawbacks to overzealous policy that completely shields all "victims" from all consequences and assumes guilt in the accused..." are:
1) Yeah but that doesn't matter if the lives of a few men are ruined because rape is under reported anyways and only a small percentage of claims are definitively proven to be false.
2) NO VICTIM BLAMING!!!

No one here has started yelling about number 2, which means we're still actually discussing the pros/cons of BYU's policy and not just blathering about politically correct talking points. So that's a positive.

Personally, I got woke during Duke lacrosse that people can and will makeup whatever they can to get themselves out of a bad situation. Then that was reinforced when I saw a dude at ND literally try to ruin someone else's life rather than face consequences for breaking ResLife. And then my fiance knows Brian Banks (Google him up if you don't know him) which is just yet another example of someone getting their life absolutely ruined over a false claim.

I know many of you don't know a single person who has had to deal with false accusations, but it is some serious shit. It's an old adage that it is better that ten criminals go free than one innocent person be convicted and that's how I feel here. Note from teh article:


I'm not going to apologize for disliking a system where women would be incentivized to make false rape claims to get out of trouble, especially when the current system at least ostensibly allows someone who didn't break the honor code a fair hearing.

To the first bold, what about the women who don't come forward due to policies like this? Again rape and sexual assault are significantly under reported. So a few men are worth thousands of women suffering?

While I understand that you have personal experience with false accusations, some of us have witnessed the other side. I have been there when a female was being blown off by the police, and I have also known a girl who didn't report a sexual assault (not rape) because of how other girls were treated on campus and she didn't want to go through with it.

I agree that there has to be a balance, but we have a system that seems to not encourage women to come forward and report rape/sexual assault, and to me that is a big problem.

 

[pkt77242]

Fact 3: The raped girl will not report Fact 2 because of Fact 1. So, some asshole who sexually assaulted someone will now go unpunished because it is an absolute MUST that the school punish a college girl for underage drinking, because it is such despicable and unacceptable behavior. Seems a bit out of whack, no? This policy has not been thought through by BYU. This makes their campus a far more dangerous place for young women.

^Truth.

All it does is silence many of the victims and allows the rapists to get away with it and to do it again another day.

 

[wizards8507]

To the first bold, what about the women who don't come forward due to policies like this? Again rape and sexual assault are significantly under reported. So a few men are worth thousands of women suffering?

That's not BYU or anybody's fault. If you are raped, report your rape!

I agree that there has to be a balance, but we have a system that seems to not encourage women to come forward and report rape/sexual assault, and to me that is a big problem.

I think a big part of the problem with "the system" is that universities are expected to act as de facto law enforcement. If you violate the BYU honor code, that's an internal matter that should be handled by BYU. If you're a victim of a felony, the expectation should be that you report the crime to the local PD, not to your university.

All it does is silence many of the victims and allows the rapists to get away with it and to do it again another day.

If the victim chooses to remain silent, that's the victim's fault. No, that's not victim blaming. That's a statement of fact. No, it's not her fault that she was raped, but it's her fault that the rapist will not be caught if she chooses to remain silent about it. If I'm a victim of a rape, that's a trump card above and beyond whatever violation of some honor code I may have committed.

 

[GoIrish41]

That's not BYU or anybody's fault. If you are raped, report your rape!


I think a big part of the problem with "the system" is that universities are expected to act as de facto law enforcement. If you violate the BYU honor code, that's an internal matter that should be handled by BYU. If you're a victim of a felony, the expectation should be that you report the crime to the local PD, not to your university.


If the victim chooses to remain silent, that's the victim's fault. No, that's not victim blaming. That's a statement of fact.

It is the university's responsibility to ensure the safety of its students. This policy does the opposite.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

To the first bold, what about the women who don't come forward due to policies like this? Again rape and sexual assault are significantly under reported. So a few men are worth thousands of women suffering?

While I understand that you have personal experience with false accusations, some of us have witnessed the other side. I have been there when a female was being blown off by the police, and I have also known a girl who didn't report a sexual assault (not rape) because of how other girls were treated on campus and she didn't want to go through with it.

I agree that there has to be a balance, but we have a system that seems to not encourage women to come forward and report rape/sexual assault, and to me that is a big problem.

There is no system that can both provide procedural fairness for the accused while simultaneously protecting the accuser enough that under-reporting won't be an issue. Yet another example of how the Sexual Revolution has been anything but "liberating".

 

[IrishLax]

To the first bold, what about the women who don't come forward due to policies like this? Again rape and sexual assault are significantly under reported. So a few men are worth thousands of women suffering?

Why is that anyone else's problem but their own? The article clearly showed an example of someone coming forward, going through the honor code hearing, and being absolved of any violations. So it's obviously possible to both 1) report the crime and have the law handle it 2) go through the honor code process.

Also, no one forces these people to either go to BYU or sign their honor code.

You're telling me you'd rather live in a world where completely innocent people routinely go to jail, but the process is easier for someone to report a crime that is already possible to report?

While I understand that you have personal experience with false accusations, some of us have witnessed the other side. I have been there when a female was being blown off by the police, and I have also known a girl who didn't report a sexual assault (not rape) because of how other girls were treated on campus and she didn't want to go through with it.

I agree that there has to be a balance, but we have a system that seems to not encourage women to come forward and report rape/sexual assault, and to me that is a big problem.

This was pretty much the entire point of my first post, which is that both sides need to be considered. But I've been backed into a corner of defending that false accusations do matter, incorrectly sending someone to jail for years does matter, etc. because it's being trivialized. If I gave you a choice right now between being raped or having to spend 10+ years in jail for something you didn't do which would you choose?

 

[pkt77242]

That's not BYU or anybody's fault. If you are raped, report your rape!


I think a big part of the problem with "the system" is that universities are expected to act as de facto law enforcement. If you violate the BYU honor code, that's an internal matter that should be handled by BYU. If you're a victim of a felony, the expectation should be that you report the crime to the local PD, not to your university.


If the victim chooses to remain silent, that's the victim's fault. No, that's not victim blaming. That's a statement of fact.

People don't report things when they can get in trouble for it. What a shocker.

When we make it difficult on the victim. Look at all of the rape kits that are untested, look at how many of these scenarios played out (the one below, the FSU one, maybe Winston didn't do it but shitty ass police work means that we will never know the truth, etc.). We as a society make them jump through hoops and when you make it difficult for someone to report a crime, shockingly people don't do it.

Also you didn't read the article. Did you see where a BYU student reported the rape to the PD and they told BYU's honor code office about it? Yep, awesome.

The aforementioned online petition was launched earlier this month by 20-year-old BYU student Madi Barney, who reported last September that she was raped in her off-campus apartment by a man who is not a BYU student. According to police documents, the alleged attacker, Nasiru Seidu, admitted to Barney during a phone conversation that he had raped her. He now claims the sex was consensual. After agonizing for four days over whether she could report the assault and afford to be charged with an honor code violation, Barney went to the police and not the university. Seidu was arrested in September and is awaiting trial. But the school got ahold of her police report when sheriff’s deputy Edwin Randolph turned it over to the BYU Honor Code Office. Both her alleged attacker and Randolph were charged with witness retaliation, but the charges were later dropped. (A court petition filed by a prosecutor in the case described Seidu and Randolph as “friends,” something that Randolph denied.)

 

[wizards8507]

People don't report things when they can get in trouble for it. What a shocker.

The victim does NOT get in trouble for having been raped. The victim might get in trouble for committing an honor code violation... which seems appropriate if she (or he) did, in fact, commit an honor code violation.

I committed honor code violations at Notre Dame. Once, I was ResLife'd for hosting a party with underage drinking. A second time, I committed academic dishonesty when I had someone sign my name on an attendance sheet for a class I did not attend. On both occasions, I paid the penalty. If I had been assaulted some time after breaking those rules, I still would have broken the rules.

When we make it difficult on the victim. Look at all of the rape kits that are untested, look at how many of these scenarios played out (the one below, the FSU one, maybe Winston didn't do it but shitty ass police work means that we will never know the truth, etc.). We as a society make them jump through hoops and when you make it difficult for someone to report a crime, shockingly people don't do it.

Yeah, that has nothing to do with this whatsoever.

Also you didn't read the article. Did you see where a BYU student reported the rape to the PD and they told BYU's honor code office about it? Yep, awesome.

I agree with you on this point, that's what I'm saying. I think the relationships between police departments and university officials is awkward at best, and corrupt at worst.

 

[pkt77242]

Why is that anyone else's problem but their own? The article clearly showed an example of someone coming forward, going through the honor code hearing, and being absolved of any violations. So it's obviously possible to both 1) report the crime and have the law handle it 2) go through the honor code process.

Also, no one forces these people to either go to BYU or sign their honor code.

You're telling me you'd rather live in a world where completely innocent people routinely go to jail, but the process is easier for someone to report a crime that is already possible to report?



This was pretty much the entire point of my first post, which is that both sides need to be considered. But I've been backed into a corner of defending that false accusations do matter, incorrectly sending someone to jail for years does matter, etc. because it's being trivialized. If I gave you a choice right now between being raped or having to spend 10+ years in jail for something you didn't do which would you choose?

Why do you assume that the person would go to jail? Did the person from ND go to jail, did any Duke Lacrosse members spend 10+ years in jail?

Personally both options are bad, but you are comparing 1:1 and it isn't that way. We know that 1000s of women are raped every year and don't report it, we know that we have 100,000s of rape kits that aren't tested, etc. Yes a few people might be falsely accused and an even smaller number go to jail but is an extremely smaller number than the amount of people who are raped and don't report it.

Look at BYU. In 2014 there was 1 reported rape on the BYU campus. If you think that there was really only 1 that year, and that there rules had nothing to do with many of the others not being reported, then I have some ocean front property down here in AZ to sell you.

 

[pkt77242]

The victim does NOT get in trouble for having been raped. The victim might get in trouble for committing an honor code violation... which seems appropriate if she (or he) did, in fact, commit an honor code violation.

I committed honor code violations at Notre Dame. Once, I was ResLife'd for hosting a party with underage drinking. A second time, I committed academic dishonesty when I had someone sign my name on an attendance sheet for a class I did not attend. On both occasions, I paid the penalty. If I had been assaulted some time after breaking those rules, I still would have broken the rules.


Yeah, that has nothing to do with this whatsoever.


I agree with you on this point, that's what I'm saying. I think the relationships between police departments and university officials is awkward at best, and corrupt at worst.

Again, but it makes people significantly less likely to report the rape which leads to the rapist being able to do it again, which leads to the campus being significantly less safe for women. Do you not see the problem with your line of thinking?

It isn't just the woman that was raped that pays for it, what about the next woman who is raped by that guy?

 

[greyhammer90]

Yet another example of how the Sexual Revolution has been anything but "liberating".

Explain.