Building the right class

[JT_IRISH]

What do you think is the most effective scenario for recruiting going forward based on our recent bad luck and transfers, but still continuing to bring mostly elite prospects?

I think BK is doing a great job all things considered. He's learning from all the negatives to be optimistic. But it's the top tier prospects we are struggling to keep. Thoughts?

 

[T Town Tommy]

We aren't Alabama or no education U where we oversign, grey shirt, bring in jucos, and let our QB cheat on exams.

A couple of things here....

Saban has signed an average of 25.6 players a year since 2009. Oversigning seems to be more a myth than fact with Alabama.

Grey shirts are not very common... even for Alabama. But sometimes it does happen. When you want to play for a school and there is not a slot for you that year then you have a choice. Either grey shirt and wait till next year or do what guys like Sheldon Day does. Go somewhere else to play. Alabama doesn't grey shirt any more players than any other school.

Since 2009, Alabama has signed six JUCO transfers total. Not a very high number to me.

As far as building the roster, Saban has given a total of 128 scholarships since 2009. Of those, 42 of which or 33% have been to players rated as a three star or two star. Some of those three stars include Steen, Womack, Belue, Foster, Ivory, Kelly, and Sunseri. And out of those listed here, all but Sunseri should have a shot at playing in the NFL. And Sunseri will probably end up a college coach one day like his dad is.

It is less about the stars after your name and more about filling the needs you have by evaluating the talent during the recruiting process. Then the coaches have to coach them up. Every elite team needs elite talent - and you recruit trying to get the best available that fits your needs. But Saban has shown you can build a program with the proper mix... and the proper coaching.

I think Kelly is doing the same at ND. The 2012 class for ND created some issues but that is sometimes expected - just as a five start sometimes flops. Kelly will continue to recruit well and fill his needs and I expect ND to be an elite program as long as he is there. I apologize for the long winded response. Thanks.

 

[JT_IRISH]

Agree for the most part. I was editing my post before the response, but Saban is still the devil.. Although I'm pretty sure Bama has had 2 of the last 3 top classes and has been top 5 for like 5 years straight now.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Agree for the most part. I was editing my post before the response, but Saban is still the devil..

That you Will Muschamp? LOL

 

[NDWorld247]

Saban has signed an average of 25.6 players a year since 2009. Oversigning seems to be more a myth than fact with Alabama.

Tommy, I have a question. On NSD 2013, Alabama inked 26 players with one scheduled to grey shirt in 2013. That put the Tide at 95 scholarship players for 2013. My question is very simple and requires only a one word answer. Is that myth or fact?

Bonus question, where can I buy a pair of your crimson colored glasses?

 

[T Town Tommy]

Tommy, I have a question. On NSD 2013, Alabama inked 26 players with one scheduled to grey shirt in 2013. That put the Tide at 95 scholarship players for 2013. My question is very simple and requires only a one word answer. Is that myth or fact?

Bonus question, where can I buy a pair of your crimson colored glasses?

Just like a lot of programs... they have some that come and some that go. Nick released the four players from their scholarships due to beating up a student and taking his Bamacard. They also had a few that were unable to continue football due to career ending injuries or at their doctors request. They also have a few that choose to go elsewhere to get playing time. I know every player in America loves Bama but some are not willing to be relegated to cheerleader or clipboard holder. Nor should they if they want to see the field at some point. Bama is no different than any other D1 school. At the end of the day they only get 85 scholarships. That's it. No more. That's fact.

The crimson colored glasses are sold everywhere... that is, if they are in stock. Usually the only thing the stores will have ia a bunch of Auburn garb. The Barners aren't as popular as they once were. Roll Tide.

 

[NDWorld247]

Just like a lot of programs... they have some that come and some that go. Nick released the four players from their scholarships due to beating up a student and taking his Bamacard. They also had a few that were unable to continue football due to career ending injuries or at their doctors request. They also have a few that choose to go elsewhere to get playing time. I know every player in America loves Bama but some are not willing to be relegated to cheerleader or clipboard holder. Nor should they if they want to see the field at some point. Bama is no different than any other D1 school. At the end of the day they only get 85 scholarships. That's it. No more. That's fact.

The crimson colored glasses are sold everywhere... that is, if they are in stock. Usually the only thing the stores will have ia a bunch of Auburn garb. The Barners aren't as popular as they once were. Roll Tide.

You didn't follow the rules, Tommy. My question required only a one word answer (Myth or Fact), but thanks for going above and beyond.

Let's try this again, Tommy. Did Alabama oversign? (circle Yes or No).

 

[T Town Tommy]

What part of 85 don't you understand? If a coach has 32 slots to fill then why not fill them? Case in point.... Stoops at Kentucky has asked several players to leave the program. He could probably sign up to 35 players this recruiting season to fill out his roster. Does that mean he doesn't do that and go into the season with 75 players on scholarship? Hardly.

Oversigning only applies if you have more than the 85 you are allowed. And while some want to believe in the myth that Saban oversigns, he always begins and ends at 85.

I have always stated that I don't care for oversigning and have posted as much on this very board. Anyway... who am I to tell a CFB coach how to manage their roster? Nick and Kelly both are doing just fine without my input. Thanks.

 

[NDWorld247]

What part of 85 don't you understand? If a coach has 32 slots to fill then why not fill them? Case in point.... Stoops at Kentucky has asked several players to leave the program. He could probably sign up to 35 players this recruiting season to fill out his roster. Does that mean he doesn't do that and go into the season with 75 players on scholarship? Hardly.

Oversigning only applies if you have more than the 85 you are allowed. And while some want to believe in the myth that Saban oversigns, he always begins and ends at 85.

I have always stated that I don't care for oversigning and have posted as much on this very board. Anyway... who am I to tell a CFB coach how to manage their roster? Nick and Kelly both are doing just fine without my input. Thanks.

Tommy, I fear you do not understand what the term oversigning means. That, my friend, is fact, not myth.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Tommy, I fear you do not understand what the term oversigning means. That, my friend, is fact, not myth.

If oversigning means having a 0.6 rate since 2009 then I guess I don't. Have a nice day.

 

[Grahambo]

You didn't follow the rules, Tommy. My question required only a one word answer (Myth or Fact), but thanks for going above and beyond.

Let's try this again, Tommy. Did Alabama oversign? (circle Yes or No).

Tommy, I fear you do not understand what the term oversigning means. That, my friend, is fact, not myth.

Dude...chill.

 

[NOLAIrish]

What part of 85 don't you understand? If a coach has 32 slots to fill then why not fill them? Case in point.... Stoops at Kentucky has asked several players to leave the program. He could probably sign up to 35 players this recruiting season to fill out his roster. Does that mean he doesn't do that and go into the season with 75 players on scholarship? Hardly.

Oversigning only applies if you have more than the 85 you are allowed. And while some want to believe in the myth that Saban oversigns, he always begins and ends at 85.

I have always stated that I don't care for oversigning and have posted as much on this very board. Anyway... who am I to tell a CFB coach how to manage their roster? Nick and Kelly both are doing just fine without my input. Thanks.

You've just defined oversigning out of existence. There's a hard rule that no team can exceed the 85 player limit. Coaches aren't avoiding that out of some ethical drive; they're doing it because they absolutely can't get away with having an excess of scholarship athletes. But that's not what oversigning is about. It's about bringing in an excess of recruits and then using various ethically fraught strategies to force out undesirable players.

Here's less murky definition: If but-for a player losing his scholarship/accepted offer despite meeting all academic and rule-based standards of that scholarship your team would've exceeded 85 players, you've oversigned.

Some of these issues are lesser evils: signing an excess of academically borderline players on the expectation that several won't qualify; dropping players for minor infractions; pushing recruits to take other offers after receiving a commit from a better player; etc.

Some, however, are absolutely repugnant: abuse of medical scholarships; outright pulling scholarships; many grayshirting scenarios; etc. Saban's hands are far from clean in this arena. We've covered this ground in other threads.

 

[Cackalacky]

I'm only guessing but I think the grey area for Tommy might lie in what happens between February and August.

 

[NDWorld247]

If oversigning means having a 0.6 rate since 2009 then I guess I don't. Have a nice day.

Oh, we're done here? Just like that?

You strive to be "fair and consistent" in all of your posts, yet the concept and definition of oversigning escapes you. Weird.

Dude...chill.

Really? The man says "Oversigning seems to be more myth than fact with Alabama" and then refuses to answer a simple question and this is your response? I am not allowed to refute his erroneous statement?

Ok, from now one when a poster says something utterly ridiculous and false, everyone just needs to chill and not question them. Everyone got that?

 

[Grahambo]

Ok...seriously...change the subject. Same argument over oversigning is getting old.

 

[Cackalacky]

I'm only guessing but I think the grey area for Tommy might lie in what happens between February and August. Tommy has been a good poster. Maybe he does not understand.

WTF is going on with the forum today? I am having tons of posting problems today. Sorry for the double post. It was supposed to be an edit.

 

[Grahambo]

Oh, we're done here? Just like that?

You strive to be "fair and consistent" in all of your posts, yet the concept and definition of oversigning escapes you. Weird.



Really? The man says "Oversigning seems to be more myth than fact with Alabama" and then refuses to answer a simple question and this is your response? I am not allowed to refute his erroneous statement?

Ok, from now one when a poster says something utterly ridiculous and false, everyone just needs to chill and not question them. Everyone got that?

You're a bigger idiot then I thought.

 

[Cackalacky]

This is all Kelly's fault.

 

[NDWorld247]

You're a bigger idiot then I thought.

Dude...chill.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Oh, we're done here? Just like that?

You strive to be "fair and consistent" in all of your posts, yet the concept and definition of oversigning escapes you. Weird.



Really? The man says "Oversigning seems to be more myth than fact with Alabama" and then refuses to answer a simple question and this is your response? I am not allowed to refute his erroneous statement?

Ok, from now one when a poster says something utterly ridiculous and false, everyone just needs to chill and not question them. Everyone got that?

You asked a question. I answered it. It appears you disagree and that's fine. I don't have any problems with that. I didn't come on this board to argue with anyone... I came on here for the content of the conversation between posters. I am sorry if I offended you in any way. Thanks again.

 

[BGIF]

Dude...chill.

NDWorld isn't the one talking out of his butt.

Saban became UA coach in '07 not '09, the date of record of Tommy's disingenuous qualifier.

Saban's and the SEC's Oversigning has been documented by the media including the Alabama media.

Saban has blown up at press conferences when a reporter asks a question about Oversigning.

The SEC realized they were caught with both hands in the cookie so they adopted a rule that you couldn't sign more than 27. Now the NCAA says 25 but why should their rules apply to the SEC?

Tommy know damn well that the Oversigning applies to LOI despite his dodge.

His deflection to Stoops and Kentucky is typical of the everybody else does it so why shouldn't we attitude that permeates the SEC. The same justification UA fans raised with the Means Scandal and their other probations, "it's not cheating if everybody else does it." The Everbody refers to the SEC big dawgs not the NCAA.

Reps to NDWorld for some sunshine through the smokescreen.

 

[WestCoast]

Saban has signed an average of 25.6 players a year since 2009. Oversigning seems to be more a myth than fact with Alabama.

25.6 x 4 = 102.4

102.4 > 85. Significantly greater.

That is oversigning.

Stop pretending it is a myth so you feel better about cheering for an unethical program. If you cheer for people to succeed through unethical methods, you yourself are unethical. If you don't mind selling your soul to vicariously derive a few good feelings on Saturdays, that's your prerogative. But don't expect us to pat you on the back.

 

[stlnd01]

Love how an interesting question about ND's approach to recruiting immediately turns into a debate about whether Alabama oversigns (which, last January aside, affects Notre Dame how?) Maybe we should take care of our own business.

I think we need to keep going after elite guys who might be borderline. I'm not sure what other choice we have if we want to compete. Plus it's easy to overlook the success stories, guys like Nix, Ishaq Williams, (hopefully) Golson who have some struggles but get through it. What happened last year wouldn't have happened without them.

We also have to recognize that recruiting nationally is probably going to up our loss rate. Distance was at least a stated factor for Lynch, Neal and Vanderdoes. It's one thing to say "I'm going to go to college in this cold small town half a continent away," it's another to stick with it when it's wintertime and something comes up that makes life complicated and UCLA beckons.

I do think we need to be extra careful about academics and make sure we do our homework on them. The Tee Shepherd situation in particular was no good for anyone. Also make sure the kids understand what's required/expected of them, and that Notre Dame is a little different. I do wonder sometimes if that gets lost in the sales pitch a bit.

Lastly we have to make sure we reel as many high-character studs as we can. I've no doubt that, inside the team, guys like Te'o and KLM were a positive influence on their peers. Hopefully Jaylon and Zaire become that with their generation. Internal team culture matters and a positive one keeps other players on board. We need to win as many of those leaders as possible.

 

[WestCoast]

Love how an interesting question about ND's approach to recruiting immediately turns into a debate about whether Alabama oversigns (which, last January aside, affects Notre Dame how?) Maybe we should take care of our own business.

I believe the original posters intent was to engage in a discussion about ND recruiting. It was not a ND fan that started that discussion.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I believe the original posters intent was to engage in a discussion about ND recruiting. It was not a ND fan that started that discussion.

Actually it was the original poster who started the conversation. He edited the original post as I posted my response as you can see from his quote my initial response. Thanks.

 

[NDWorld247]

Thanks, BGIF.

JT, I am sorry for contributing to the derailment of your thread. I liked your OP and wish you hadn't edited it.

I think BK's recruiting strategy has evolved. At first, he had to recruit for the gaping holes left by the previous regime. He succeeded in some areas and fell short initially in others. I think we are at a place now where we will continue to see really balanced classes, as evidenced by our '13 class and the way our '14 class is shaping up.

Re: the 'top tier' prospects you mentioned, I will share a theory I shared in another thread. When Kelly was hired at ND, he was tasked with having to recruit 'top tier' guys for the first time in his career. His, and the staff's, experience recruiting high 4-stars and 5 stars was minimal. As he and the staff continue to gain experience recruiting this level of athlete they will only get better. He needed to swing and miss on some guys and probably needed to gamble on others. Moving forward, they don't need to gamble as much and we probably won't experience as many defections as we've had.

With that said, I am not alarmed by our defections. Every program has them. And, as stlnd01 just said, let's not overlook the success we've had with the top tier prospects. To date, we have had more hits than misses and our batting avg will only improve.

 

[T Town Tommy]

25.6 x 4 = 102.4

102.4 > 85. Significantly greater.

That is oversigning.

Stop pretending it is a myth so you feel better about cheering for an unethical program. If you cheer for people to succeed through unethical methods, you yourself are unethical. If you don't mind selling your soul to vicariously derive a few good feelings on Saturdays, that's your prerogative. But don't expect us to pat you on the back.

So in four years you have nobody leave the program for any reason? Graduation, early entry into the draft, kicked off the team, transferred to another school, career ending injury, etc.? In that case... yes... you oversigned.

 

[Ndaccountant]

So in four years you have nobody leave the program for any reason? Graduation, early entry into the draft, kicked off the team, transferred to another school, career ending injury, etc.? In that case... yes... you oversigned.

Ttt i like you posting here, please dont stop. As far as oversigning goes, i take a simpler view. If a coach knows full well that he will need to "manage" the roster between spring and fall, then you oversign. One way is medical sxholarships, which appear to have been abused as documented below.


Alabama Crimson Tide Football Has Some Unhappy Castaways - WSJ.com

 

[NOLAIrish]

So in four years you have nobody leave the program for any reason? Graduation, early entry into the draft, kicked off the team, transferred to another school, career ending injury, etc.? In that case... yes... you oversigned.

Several of us have posted our thoughts on this topic in a discussion with Bama fans in this thread: Oversigning Recruits. I'd suggest reading the last half of that thread (the debate started around post 200 and got dense with discussion in the last 3-4 pages) if you want to see where many regular IE posters stand on the issue.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Several of us have posted our thoughts on this topic in a discussion with Bama fans in this thread: Oversigning Recruits. I'd suggest reading the last half of that thread (the debate started around post 200 and got dense with discussion in the last 3-4 pages) if you want to see where many regular IE posters stand on the issue.

Thanks for the info. I will check it out.