Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[Free Manera]

I love this thread after a big loss.

1. BK doesn't recruit
2. Urban Meyer
3. ND will never reach the summit

Time is a circle. Nothing is new. Everything has happened and will happen again. Etc.

The reality is that Bama is a machine in their own tier, regardless of who they have at QB. They reload at every position, every year. They are essentially an NFL program that requires their players to earn college credit.

The next tier is Clemson and Ohio State, clearly the next best programs in the country. Their rosters are good enough to keep them in the company of the elite, and even winning their biggest games, regardless of who they have at QB... but QB still determines their ceiling. They elevate to 'tier 1' with elite QB play; they stay at 'tier 2' with adequate QB play; they'd drop to 'tier 3' if they had to rely on a placeholder at QB, which neither has recently. Clemson should be just fine with DJ U at QB, but I'm much more curious to see what Ohio State does post-Fields.

The third tier features ND and Oklahoma. SEC and PAC12 fans would probably take huge issue with that, especially LSU, UGA and Oregon fans... but ND and Oklahoma are a step above anybody else with an argument, because they are the only programs that have proven capable of making MULTIPLE playoff runs, despite not quite sharing the elite traits of the programs above them.

So if you put aside arguments about recruiting, conference strength, head-to-head matchups, common results, and other factors, the reality and the evidence say that ND is in a better place than all but three or four other programs in the country.

LSU? They won a natty, but that was a one-off lead by a miracle run of QB play and gameplanning. Without Joe Burrow and Joe Brady, they fell off a fucking cliff.

UGA? They suffer self-inflicted wounds every season that seem to put them behind the 8-ball. First they ran off Justin Fields in favor of Jake Fromm (LOL), and this year they waited too long to get Daniels on the field.

Several schools have arguments that they should be with ND, or even listed above ND... and yet, BK's program continues to prove that it is stronger, healthier and more capable of answering yearly questions than almost every other program in the country.

I choose to be optimistic in this regard. We don't recruit like UGA, UF or LSU; we don't get plug-and-play QB's like Oklahoma; we don't get elite QB play on top of elite rosters like OSU or Clemson; we don't get elite play at multiple levels on a yearly basis like Bama. But we know that if the stars align just one time for ND at the QB position, they jump from tier 3 to tier 2, or even tier 1.

This is all true. But, as fans you still want to see some kind of progress. It is frustrating that ND is no closer to Tier 2 than they were 5 years ago.

We can all agree ND will never be Bama or OSU. It would require unreasonable deviations from the school's philosophy on student athletes.

But ND could be Clemson if they wanted to be. Clemson doesn't stockpile 5 stars to the degree Bama and OSU (and UGA for that matter) do. But they get their difference makers every class. They seem to always get a stud QB, WR, CB, and D lineman. Then they fill in with 3 and 4 stars that they have thoroughly evaluated and like a lot.

That's the model for ND. And we have been waiting for it to happen for like 10 (20? 30?) years.

 

[Irish#1]

It is frustrating that ND is no closer to Tier 2 than they were 5 years ago.

You watching the same ND team that I am?

 

[IrishLion]

Has anything ever came out as to 'why' we can't get a stud QB? Me, personally, i wouldn't want to play QB for BK. But has a recruit every came out and said I didn't go to ND because...?

My general hypothesis has been that BK values the experience that 'veterans' have a bit too much, and it has caught him in a never-ending cycle that prevents the development of a truly elite QB prospect.

It seems like when he's had opportunities to turn the reigns over to a heralded-but-young QB, he opts to play the savvy veteran instead... that savvy veteran likely has a limited ceiling, but he plays juuuuust well enough to keep the job over a more-talented but less-experienced prospect.

'21 is going to be very telling. Do they turn the keys over to Buchner, knowing they need to build towards him being the answer anyway? Or do they let Pyne be a game manager, which opens the door for the cycle to repeat itself?

Pyne plays in '21, and manages the games juuuuust well enough to keep the job in '22, Buchner can't unseat a guy that hasn't totally screwed up, etc.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Mac Jones graduated in 2 yrs and I believe is close to completing his Masters at Bama. He’s obviously a bright kid to accomplish that at an state university. I think he was a 3 star w/ an offer from FAU. Why wasn’t he on ND’s radar?

2 1/2 years to get this Communications degree and his masters is in Sports Hospitality...

Communication degrees are jokes (Im sorry if I offend anyone with a Communication degree) and IDK what Sports Hospitality even is.

 

[IrishLion]

This is all true. But, as fans you still want to see some kind of progress. It is frustrating that ND is no closer to Tier 2 than they were 5 years ago.

We can all agree ND will never be Bama or OSU. It would require unreasonable deviations from the school's philosophy on student athletes.

But ND could be Clemson if they wanted to be. Clemson doesn't stockpile 5 stars to the degree Bama and OSU (and UGA for that matter) do. But they get their difference makers every class. They seem to always get a stud QB, WR, CB, and D lineman. Then they fill in with 3 and 4 stars that they have thoroughly evaluated and like a lot.

That's the model for ND. And we have been waiting for it to happen for like 10 (20? 30?) years.

Being Clemson takes time and consistency... and ND is quite literally tracking along the "Clemson Plan" right now.

Clemson was known for "Clemsoning" prior to '15... making the big game, but blowing it or getting embarrassed. But they just kept winning 10+ anyway, allowing them to build the program and keep it healthy and ready for the breakthrough. Then they got Deshaun Watson, and suddenly the Heavens smiled down upon Dabo, and they've been riding that wave ever since.

All you can do, if you aren't Bama, is put yourself within striking distance. You do it by winning 10+ per year, building your base and developmental identity, and waiting for the time to either push towards a run, or to unleash an elite QB. ND has proven that it can build its base and has started to solve the identity issues with a higher hit rate in recruiting (at least outside of WR lol), and it has also proven that its one of the few programs that can identify and address problems well enough to build towards a playoff run... the QB is the missing piece. You need a guy who elevates the rest of the offense on a consistent basis.

 

[Free Manera]

2 1/'2 years to get this Communications degree and his masters is in Sports Hospitality...

Communication degrees are jokes (Im sorry if I offend anyone with a Communication degree) and IDK what Sports Hospitality even is.

http://www.sportmanagement.ches.ua.edu/

It's a graduate program. "The coursework will prepare students for employment and careers in the sport, hospitality, athletics, tourism, and entertainment settings.This is a long-established program with alumni in a variety of industry settings throughout the United States."

Seems like a wise career choice for a QB from Alabama if you ask me. Just because he's not going to be a doctor, lawyer, or engineer doesn't mean he's incapable of doing those things. He might just not want to.

 

[Free Manera]

Being Clemson takes time and consistency... and ND is quite literally tracking along the "Clemson Plan" right now.

Clemson was known for "Clemsoning" prior to '15... making the big game, but blowing it or getting embarrassed. But they just kept winning 10+ anyway, allowing them to build the program and keep it healthy and ready for the breakthrough. Then they got Deshaun Watson, and suddenly the Heavens smiled down upon Dabo, and they've been riding that wave ever since.

All you can do, if you aren't Bama, is put yourself within striking distance. You do it by winning 10+ per year, building your base and developmental identity, and waiting for the time to either push towards a run, or to unleash an elite QB. ND has proven that it can build its base and has started to solve the identity issues with a higher hit rate in recruiting (at least outside of WR lol), and it has also proven that its one of the few programs that can identify and address problems well enough to build towards a playoff run... the QB is the missing piece. You need a guy who elevates the rest of the offense on a consistent basis.

This is kind of true, but recruiting isn't trending towards striking distance. It is basically just more of the same. Recruiting needs to be turned up in several ways - evaluation, identification, communication, and closing the deal.

Even with Deshaun Watson this ND team wasn't winning a title. The athletes on the outside couldn't run with their opponent which is a recipe for disaster eventually. Maybe ND scores 35 but Bama would've just scored 56. They would have had the ball more, and felt threatened. Recruiting needs to be better at many positions, not just QB.

 

[dublinirish]

2 1/2 years to get this Communications degree and his masters is in Sports Hospitality...

Communication degrees are jokes (Im sorry if I offend anyone with a Communication degree) and IDK what Sports Hospitality even is.

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[InKellyWeTrust]

My general hypothesis has been that BK values the experience that 'veterans' have a bit too much, and it has caught him in a never-ending cycle that prevents the development of a truly elite QB prospect.

It seems like when he's had opportunities to turn the reigns over to a heralded-but-young QB, he opts to play the savvy veteran instead... that savvy veteran likely has a limited ceiling, but he plays juuuuust well enough to keep the job over a more-talented but less-experienced prospect.

'21 is going to be very telling. Do they turn the keys over to Buchner, knowing they need to build towards him being the answer anyway? Or do they let Pyne be a game manager, which opens the door for the cycle to repeat itself?

Pyne plays in '21, and manages the games juuuuust well enough to keep the job in '22, Buchner can't unseat a guy that hasn't totally screwed up, etc.

If that happens Kelly would lose the majority of the fan base, including me. Buchner has to be given the chance. It's Kelly's last hope.

 

[dublinirish]

If that happens Kelly would lose the majority of the fan base, including me. Buchner has to be given the chance. It's Kelly's last hope.

Kelly will want to keep the program at the ten wins level though. He can't afford to regress to rebuild. He will go with the best QB he has regardless of class

 

[Free Manera]

If that happens Kelly would lose the majority of the fan base, including me. Buchner has to be given the chance. It's Kelly's last hope.

It's a perfect year to start a freshman too. It will be kind of a rebuild most likely. The schedule isn't hard. They could probably win 8+ games even if he has major growing pains.

 

[MNIrishman]

http://www.sportmanagement.ches.ua.edu/

It's a graduate program. "The coursework will prepare students for employment and careers in the sport, hospitality, athletics, tourism, and entertainment settings.This is a long-established program with alumni in a variety of industry settings throughout the United States."

Seems like a wise career choice for a QB from Alabama if you ask me. Just because he's not going to be a doctor, lawyer, or engineer doesn't mean he's incapable of doing those things. He might just not want to.

Ok, great. They came up with a degree to qualify someone to sell popcorn in a stadium. That sounds totally legit and not at all a corner to stuff athletes to maintain their eligibility.

 

[Free Manera]

Ok, great. They came up with a degree to qualify someone to sell popcorn in a stadium. That sounds totally legit and not at all a corner to stuff athletes to maintain their eligibility.

You can blame the school if you want, but saying the kid isn't smart because he took that major is asinine.

 

[Free Manera]

You watching the same ND team that I am?

If you think Bama was really only 17 points better than ND I have some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you.

 

[Irishize]

2 1/2 years to get this Communications degree and his masters is in Sports Hospitality...

Communication degrees are jokes (Im sorry if I offend anyone with a Communication degree) and IDK what Sports Hospitality even is.

Right, it’s not an IQ test...just shows he has his shit together and is focused enough to complete what most his teammates ever do. I wasn’t implying he would do the same at ND in a short amount of time. Rather, I was curious why he wasn’t on ND’s radar to begin with.

 

[NDisme]

It's a perfect year to start a freshman too. It will be kind of a rebuild most likely. The schedule isn't hard. They could probably win 8+ games even if he has major growing pains.

I think you have to do everything you can to get Buchner ready. A year where you can win 8 games hopefully while giving Buchner valuable experience letting the new Olineman gel and get young guys on the outside the experience. Because personally I’d rather not have Buchner’s first start of organized football since his Junior year of high school to be at the Horeshoe.

 

[Irishize]

http://www.sportmanagement.ches.ua.edu/

It's a graduate program. "The coursework will prepare students for employment and careers in the sport, hospitality, athletics, tourism, and entertainment settings.This is a long-established program with alumni in a variety of industry settings throughout the United States."

Seems like a wise career choice for a QB from Alabama if you ask me. Just because he's not going to be a doctor, lawyer, or engineer doesn't mean he's incapable of doing those things. He might just not want to.

Isn’t he from FL? Makes even more sense if that’s the case.

Regardless, he will be a millionaire in a few months regardless of how well he fares in the NFL.

 

[MNIrishman]

You can blame the school if you want, but saying the kid isn't smart because he took that major is asinine.

Either the kid shouldn't be in college and Alabama is exploiting him, or he's smart enough to study a real subject and he's being parked in an eligibility program where his shot at college is being wasted. Either way, shame on Alabama.

 

[Irishize]

Kelly will want to keep the program at the ten wins level though. He can't afford to regress to rebuild. He will go with the best QB he has regardless of class

He better not be that short-sighted or 2022 will be another referendum on the “narrative”. ND will play both tOSU & Clemson in ‘22.. Winning 10 games off next season’s schedule would not be impressive.

ND will have one starter returning on the OL to go along w/ experienced TE/RB & hopefully some young talented WR (if they can finally get healthy). I’ll take an 8-4 season if it means the QB for 2022 is getting 13 games of experience under his belt.

If they want to pick up a QB from the portal for depth due to Clark’s uncertainty, fine. But I hope they don’t get some game manager to be a one year rental and then 2022 is left to start from scratch. Kelly trusted Long to switch from Wimbush to Book. My hope is he has the same trust in Rees to pick the best QB for the next few years...not just 2021

 

[Irishize]

I think you have to do everything you can to get Buchner ready. A year where you can win 8 games hopefully while giving Buchner valuable experience letting the new Olineman gel and get young guys on the outside the experience. Because personally I’d rather not have Buchner’s first start of organized football since his Junior year of high school to be at the Horeshoe.

Co-signed

 

[Irishize]

If that happens Kelly would lose the majority of the fan base, including me. Buchner has to be given the chance. It's Kelly's last hope.

Pyne may be the next Drew Brees so pardon my unfair criticism but he’s tiny and doesn’t look like a P5 starting QB. Granted, he was a freshman and Balis can bulk him up but if Buchner can’t beat him out at some point in 2021, the message boards will be lit up.

 

[RDU Irish]

Seems we should have all the parts - Johnson, Lenzy, Keys can't all bust, reps are opening up with Skoronek and McKinley moving on. TE is stacked as as is RB now with Kyren and Tyree.

OL/QB are the question marks. OL should reload and QB at least two guys that should have more upside than Book.

Don't care about Mac Jones. He was smart to get a degree in 2.5 years so he could grad transfer if Bama wasn't working out. Just because people take a lazy classroom path doesn't mean they are stupid, maybe just focused on different things. ND could leverage their communication/film & television majors for the "easy" path which in reality is built to prepare them for a future in broadcasting or building their brand as a pro athlete. I mean - if that is what they are trying to be why not give them an education in making the most of it. It doesn't have to be "hard" - the hard part is being a Heisman contender, pro-bowl caliber player, etc.

 

[gkIrish]

There’s not a coach in the country that’s gonna come in and do any better than Brian Kelly. I think he is doing as good as he can with the circumstances he is dealt. Saban isn’t gonna come in here and recruit a top 5 class neither is Meyer. ND is a great school but outside of the stadium the area of South Bend is a shit hole. There isn’t much to do off campus. You can only do so much with the cards you’re dealt.

Is this serious?

 

[ThePiombino]

It's a perfect year to start a freshman too. It will be kind of a rebuild most likely. The schedule isn't hard. They could probably win 8+ games even if he has major growing pains.

Not really. Would be better with more continuity along the OL.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[GATTACA!]

Seems we should have all the parts - Johnson, Lenzy, Keys can't all bust, reps are opening up with Skoronek and McKinley moving on. TE is stacked as as is RB now with Kyren and Tyree.

OL/QB are the question marks. OL should reload and QB at least two guys that should have more upside than Book.

Don't care about Mac Jones. He was smart to get a degree in 2.5 years so he could grad transfer if Bama wasn't working out. Just because people take a lazy classroom path doesn't mean they are stupid, maybe just focused on different things. ND could leverage their communication/film & television majors for the "easy" path which in reality is built to prepare them for a future in broadcasting or building their brand as a pro athlete. I mean - if that is what they are trying to be why not give them an education in making the most of it. It doesn't have to be "hard" - the hard part is being a Heisman contender, pro-bowl caliber player, etc.

I agree Mac Jones made the smart choice to go the route he did. It's just kind of annoying hearing people claim he's the next Sheldon Cooper because he's getting his masters in 2.5 years, without realizing what it's in.

 

[Free Manera]

The point about Mac Jones is:
1. Bama found him, evaluated him, and liked him, even though he was a 3 star.
2. He was supposed to be a backup. But, they developed him into something more.
3. He turned into a likely national champion and first round pick.

I don't know what his high school grades were. I don't know if he took French or Latin or Swahili or whatever to meet the language requirement.

But I do know you can't say he wasn't smart enough to get into ND because of his major. I do know that graduating in 2.5 years is still a nice achievement that a lot of college players with their eye on their NFL don't reach (even at Bama or UF or whatever easy school we want to shit on). I do know ND missed him, along with many other schools.

I also know that if he was transferring to ND this offseason, we would be lauding his early graduation with a graduate degree. "2.5 years, must be a smart kid even if it was Alabama" would be the sentiment.

 

[MNIrishman]

The point about Mac Jones is:
1. Bama found him, evaluated him, and liked him, even though he was a 3 star.
2. He was supposed to be a backup. But, they developed him into something more.
3. He turned into a likely national champion and first round pick.

I don't know what his high school grades were. I don't know if he took French or Latin or Swahili or whatever to meet the language requirement.

But I do know you can't say he wasn't smart enough to get into ND because of his major. I do know that graduating in 2.5 years is still a nice achievement that a lot of college players with their eye on their NFL don't reach (even at Bama or UF or whatever easy school we want to shit on). I do know ND missed him, along with many other schools.

I also know that if he was transferring to ND this offseason, we would be lauding his early graduation with a graduate degree. "2.5 years, must be a smart kid even if it was Alabama" would be the sentiment.

Not really. ND doesn't offer communications or "sport hospitality." Actually, I don't really know that any school besides Alabama offers that particular brand of made-up nonsense. The only SEC academic highlight who ever impressed me somewhat was Barrett Jones, and even he's got a middling career almost a decade out from graduation. He's earned a degree in a real subject and is using it, however, so he beat expectations.

At least OSU had Craig Krenzel, a molecular biology major with a 3.75 GPA. I've never heard of anyone coming out of Bama with anything close to that.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

After sleeping on it, I just don't see the Bama game as this giant indictment on Kelly's tenure at ND. Two crucial scoring plays that lacked execution (missed FG and TD called back for a penalty) are a direct result in leaving 10 points off the board. Would anyone be having these "come to Jesus moments" if ND lost that game 31-24 with a chance to tie or win at the end after that onside kick? No, we wouldn't.

ND needs more playmakers at DE, DB, WR, and QB who can actually get the ball downfield with consistency. That's it. Keep recruiting. Keep the system going. Keep winning 10+ games. Keep giving yourself a shot. That's all anyone not named Bama/Clemson/OSU can do.

 

[tussin]

Has there been any chatter on how many more years BK plans to coach? I wonder if/when we will enter the HC-in-waiting stage with a Ryan Day or Lincoln Riley type coordinator.

 

[NDMatt91]

Has there been any chatter on how many more years BK plans to coach? I wonder if/when we will enter the HC-in-waiting stage with a Ryan Day or Lincoln Riley type coordinator.

I’m pretty sure he has said he’ll be done when his contract expires (end of 2024 season).