Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[ShawneeIrish]

3-7 in the last ten games with wins over Boston College, Syracuse, and Nevada. C'mon guys name specific coaches who could possibly be better than the great BK

 

[gkIrish]

3-7 in the last ten games with wins over Boston College, Syracuse, and Nevada. C'mon guys name specific coaches who could possibly be better than the great BK

Lol right? There are DOZENS of coaches that could take the talent we have had in the last 5 years and won more games. I'm sure of it. I've rarely seen a coach squander so much talent every single year.

Now of course some coaches wouldn't come here and some might not be able to recruit as well but I believe there are at least 20 people that could do more with BK under the same circumstances. Again, not saying there are 20 realistic candidates, but there are at least 20 coaches who could (a) recruit as well and (b) perform better than BK.

They have all been named in this thread and I'm not really even counting NFL guys.

 

[Irish Insanity]

3-7 in the last ten games with wins over Boston College, Syracuse, and Nevada. C'mon guys name specific coaches who could possibly be better than the great BK

I'd like to nominate this for POTY for the Envy's

 

[ulukinatme]

Lol right? There are DOZENS of coaches that could take the talent we have had in the last 5 years and won more games. I'm sure of it. I've rarely seen a coach squander so much talent every single year.

Now of course some coaches wouldn't come here and some might not be able to recruit as well but I believe there are at least 20 people that could do more with BK under the same circumstances. Again, not saying there are 20 realistic candidates, but there are at least 20 coaches who could (a) recruit as well and (b) perform better than BK.

They have all been named in this thread and I'm not really even counting NFL guys.

Yeah, there probably are 20 coaches that could recruit as well and perform better, but when we're talking replacing BK they HAVE to be realistic. That number gets much, much smaller when we talk guys that are actually going to come here. Most of those 20 guys already have as good or better positions, or they're soon going to an equal status job (Big P5 job) with more cash and/or less restrictions on student athletes. If we're replacing BK it's almost a given that we're going to have to pull from a non-P5 school unless we're taking a chance with a coordinator with little to no HC experience.

 

[NDohio]

Lol right? There are DOZENS of coaches that could take the talent we have had in the last 5 years and won more games. I'm sure of it. I've rarely seen a coach squander so much talent every single year.

Now of course some coaches wouldn't come here and some might not be able to recruit as well but I believe there are at least 20 people that could do more with BK under the same circumstances. Again, not saying there are 20 realistic candidates, but there are at least 20 coaches who could (a) recruit as well and (b) perform better than BK.

They have all been named in this thread and I'm not really even counting NFL guys.

Yeah, there probably are 20 coaches that could recruit as well and perform better, but when we're talking replacing BK they HAVE to be realistic. That number gets much, much smaller when we talk guys that are actually going to come here. Most of those 20 guys already have as good or better positions, or they're soon going to an equal status job (Big P5 job) with more cash and/or less restrictions on student athletes. If we're replacing BK it's almost a given that we're going to have to pull from a non-P5 school unless we're taking a chance with a coordinator with little to no HC experience.

Here is the thing. The next football coach at Notre Dame needs to not just be a little better than BK, they need to be remarkably better. I have been through several eras of being a ND fan and this current fan base is less patient with higher expectations than I have seen in a while. It's not good enough to just be good at ND right now, there has to be national championships.

I hope the next guy can handle that kind of pressure.

 

[gkIrish]

Yeah, there probably are 20 coaches that could recruit as well and perform better, but when we're talking replacing BK they HAVE to be realistic. That number gets much, much smaller when we talk guys that are actually going to come here. Most of those 20 guys already have as good or better positions, or they're soon going to an equal status job (Big P5 job) with more cash and/or less restrictions on student athletes. If we're replacing BK it's almost a given that we're going to have to pull from a non-P5 school unless we're taking a chance with a coordinator with little to no HC experience.

If there is even 1 coach that would (a) come here (b) recruit as well and (c) perform better, you have to pull the trigger. I think Herman or Petersen are very realistic options despite all the nonbelievers.

 

[kmoose]

Here is the thing. The next football coach at Notre Dame needs to not just be a little better than BK, they need to be remarkably better. I have been through several eras of being a ND fan and this current fan base is less patient with higher expectations than I have seen in a while. It's not good enough to just be good at ND right now, there has to be national championships.

I hope the next guy can handle that kind of pressure.

The current fan base is more concerned with winning, no matter the cost, than previous fan bases. That's my amateur take on it, anyway. Most of the people that I grew up watching ND with were more proud of Alan Page, than they were of Joe Montana. And I was a teenager in Montana's heyday! Most of them were more proud of the academic success of ND athletes, than of the Heisman success. However, in fairness to the current group of young ND fans........... winning was not an issue back then, because ND was a force, even when they had a down year or two.

 

[NDohio]

The current fan base is more concerned with winning, no matter the cost, than previous fan bases. That's my amateur take on it, anyway. Most of the people that I grew up watching ND with were more proud of Alan Page, than they were of Joe Montana. And I was a teenager in Montana's heyday! Most of them were more proud of the academic success of ND athletes, than of the Heisman success. However, in fairness to the current group of young ND fans........... winning was not an issue back then, because ND was a force, even when they had a down year or two.

Yeah, I basically agree, especially the bold.

 

[ulukinatme]

Here is the thing. The next football coach at Notre Dame needs to not just be a little better than BK, they need to be remarkably better. I have been through several eras of being a ND fan and this current fan base is less patient with higher expectations than I have seen in a while. It's not good enough to just be good at ND right now, there has to be national championships.

I hope the next guy can handle that kind of pressure.

Realistically, I don't know if this can happen at ND anymore. Call me a pessimist, but Jack Nolan pointed out on the radio program after Stanford that the administration would rather have the #1 graduation rate than the #1 football ranking and a national championship. Right or wrong, that's the way things stand. It's also been said that if the FBS split and football factories went to one side while true academic schools went to the other (Which has been discussed), ND would be on the academic side without any questions. That's what Swarbrick says we would do, and I believe it. Given those facts, it's hard to see realistic circumstances where our guys win it all when there's so much pressure to succeed in the classroom (Which is most definitely the right course of action for the kids).

If ND ever gets to the playoff and manages to squeak out a win, it's going to be the rarest of scenarios imo and it's going to require a lot of luck. To even get there will probably require a lot of luck. To even consider multiple championships in close proximity to one another is folly.

 

[gkIrish]

Realistically, I don't know if this can happen at ND anymore. Call me a pessimist, but Jack Nolan pointed out on the radio program after Stanford that the administration would rather have the #1 graduation rate than the #1 football ranking and a national championship. Right or wrong, that's the way things stand. It's also been said that if the FBS split and football factories went to one side while true academic schools went to the other (Which has been discussed), ND would be on the academic side without any questions. That's what Swarbrick says we would do, and I believe it. Given those facts, it's hard to see realistic circumstances where our guys win it all when there's so much pressure to succeed in the classroom (Which is most definitely the right course of action for the kids).

If ND ever gets to the playoff and manages to squeak out a win, it's going to be the rarest of scenarios imo and it's going to require a lot of luck. To even get there will probably require a lot of luck. To even consider multiple championships in close proximity to one another is folly.

Disagree. If there is one thing BK did, it's that he showed ND can get pretty close to being a playoff team on talent/recruiting alone. With the right coach, it is definitely achievable. No reason Michigan St. can make the playoffs but we can't. We have top 10 classes all the time...everyone keeps dismissing that.

The current fan base is more concerned with winning, no matter the cost, than previous fan bases. That's my amateur take on it, anyway. Most of the people that I grew up watching ND with were more proud of Alan Page, than they were of Joe Montana. And I was a teenager in Montana's heyday! Most of them were more proud of the academic success of ND athletes, than of the Heisman success. However, in fairness to the current group of young ND fans........... winning was not an issue back then, because ND was a force, even when they had a down year or two.

What costs are you alluding to?

 

[RDU Irish]

All of the changes in the last 7 years and we are doubting the administration's dedication to winning football? Structurally there are a lot of things in place that individually would have been viewed as impossible 10 years ago - collectively inconceivable! Field turf, video board, stadium music, smoke entering the stadium, night games at home, training table, luxury boxes (I mean that IS what campus crossroads is all about right?), 7 figure assistant pay checks...

Just because #1 is academics does not mean that #2 is fully neglected.

 

[NDohio]

Realistically, I don't know if this can happen at ND anymore. Call me a pessimist, but Jack Nolan pointed out on the radio program after Stanford that the administration would rather have the #1 graduation rate than the #1 football ranking and a national championship. Right or wrong, that's the way things stand. It's also been said that if the FBS split and football factories went to one side while true academic schools went to the other (Which has been discussed), ND would be on the academic side without any questions. That's what Swarbrick says we would do, and I believe it. Given those facts, it's hard to see realistic circumstances where our guys win it all when there's so much pressure to succeed in the classroom (Which is most definitely the right course of action for the kids).

If ND ever gets to the playoff and manages to squeak out a win, it's going to be the rarest of scenarios imo and it's going to require a lot of luck. To even get there will probably require a lot of luck. To even consider multiple championships in close proximity to one another is folly.

I do think ND can win a national championship, I also agree that a lot of things have to fall into place for that to happen - a lot of that being luck.

I don't know if this current fan base understands that ND will never be a football over academics institution and how that makes it so much more difficult to win a 'nati...

 

[GATTACA!]

The current fan base is more concerned with winning, no matter the cost, than previous fan bases. That's my amateur take on it, anyway. Most of the people that I grew up watching ND with were more proud of Alan Page, than they were of Joe Montana. And I was a teenager in Montana's heyday! Most of them were more proud of the academic success of ND athletes, than of the Heisman success. However, in fairness to the current group of young ND fans........... winning was not an issue back then, because ND was a force, even when they had a down year or two.

Yepp can confirm, all I care about is winning.

 

[NDohio]

Disagree. If there is one thing BK did, it's that he showed ND can get pretty close to being a playoff team on talent/recruiting alone. With the right coach, it is definitely achievable. No reason Michigan St. can make the playoffs but we can't. We have top 10 classes all the time...everyone keeps dismissing that.



What costs are you alluding to?

All of the changes in the last 7 years and we are doubting the administration's dedication to winning football? Structurally there are a lot of things in place that individually would have been viewed as impossible 10 years ago - collectively inconceivable! Field turf, video board, stadium music, smoke entering the stadium, night games at home, training table, luxury boxes (I mean that IS what campus crossroads is all about right?), 7 figure assistant pay checks...

Just because #1 is academics does not mean that #2 is fully neglected.

Yes, there is most definitely a movement in having the football program be successful. I just wonder if the fans' definition of success is the same as the administration's definition.

Also, I don't think it's about getting the players to ND, I think it's about the time, energy, and pressure of being a true student-athlete that makes it difficult. There are some that can do that, but a full roster of 85(LOL)? I am not so sure.

 

[kmoose]

Disagree. If there is one thing BK did, it's that he showed ND can get pretty close to being a playoff team on talent/recruiting alone. With the right coach, it is definitely achievable. No reason Michigan St. can make the playoffs but we can't. We have top 10 classes all the time...everyone keeps dismissing that.



What costs are you alluding to?

The cost of ND's academic mission taking a back seat. I keep hearing how we should be more like Stanford. Well, Stanford got exposed for having a "secret list" of easy-A classes that was only available to athletes. That should NEVER fly at ND. I hear people talking about the Administration's commitment to academics as if it is distasteful. It's not, and their priorities are in the right place, in my opinion.

 

[gkIrish]

The cost of ND's academic mission taking a back seat. I keep hearing how we should be more like Stanford. Well, Stanford got exposed for having a "secret list" of easy-A classes that was only available to athletes. That should NEVER fly at ND. I hear people talking about the Administration's commitment to academics as if it is distasteful. It's not, and their priorities are in the right place, in my opinion.

I personally don't think we need to change anything at all on the academic side. Can we recruit better? Sure. But we are doing well enough to be able to compete most years for the playoffs. I think it is 100% coaching.

 

[RDU Irish]

I'm with kmoose here - there are definitely easier courses of study than others but kids that can't compete in any of NDs classrooms do not belong. Getting in to ND is harder than staying in, in many respects. I do not doubt that plenty of recruits are smart enough to succeed academically at ND - as are tons of other students who are turned away annually.

 

[irishff1014]

The cost of ND's academic mission taking a back seat. I keep hearing how we should be more like Stanford. Well, Stanford got exposed for having a "secret list" of easy-A classes that was only available to athletes. That should NEVER fly at ND. I hear people talking about the Administration's commitment to academics as if it is distasteful. It's not, and their priorities are in the right place, in my opinion.

I thought ND fans like ND for being different than the rest? For setting up kids future? This isn't the old days anymore every conference has there own channel so ND isn't the only one one all the time.

I like ND because it is different than the rest. Makes students accountable for SCHOOL,If football does work out they have a very good degree, I can watch them all the time,The tradition of ND Football. **I am not Saying that you aren't die hard fans just saying this is a special program.

 

[NDohio]

I thought ND fans like ND for being different than the rest? For setting up kids future? This isn't the old days anymore every conference has there own channel so ND isn't the only one one all the time.

I like ND because it is different than the rest. Makes students accountable for SCHOOL,If football does work out they have a very good degree, I can watch them all the time,The tradition of ND Football. **I am not Saying that you aren't die hard fans just saying this is a special program.

Yepp can confirm, all I care about is winning.

.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I'm with GK on this. Our recent recruiting classes, current player, and those that have recently went on the the NFL show ND can still pull the talent. No doubt ND is harder to get into, and harder to stay afloat at, than most any other college. But recruiting and talent has been more than good in recent years.

 

[ND NYC]

at what point do we/ND realize/admit that the "ND Football Return to Glory" will not happen if things stay the same regardless of who our head coach is? keeping Kelly isn't the answer and firing him isn't either.

like they say we can't be Harvard Monday thru Friday and Alabama on Saturdays.

if we/ND really, truly want to "win it all" we need to be able to shop in ALL the aisles for players.

this is why i don't bitch so much when we lose. this near 30 year walk in the college football wilderness has always been a self limiting choice. glad I am old enough to have witnessed some ND Glory in the 70's and 80's...it was truly special.

 

[Irish YJ]

I'm with GK on this. Our recent recruiting classes, current player, and those that have recently went on the the NFL show ND can still pull the talent. No doubt ND is harder to get into, and harder to stay afloat at, than most any other college. But recruiting and talent has been more than good in recent years.

We have far too much talent to stumble like we have, no doubt. The only issues we've had in the recruiting space has been getting studs on the D side of the ball. Primarily top S, CB, DT, and DEs. We've done well on O, but have had a hard time getting the top tier skill positions with the exception of TE.

Overall, we should still be easily a top 20 team based on talent/stars alone.

 

[ulukinatme]

The cost of ND's academic mission taking a back seat. I keep hearing how we should be more like Stanford. Well, Stanford got exposed for having a "secret list" of easy-A classes that was only available to athletes. That should NEVER fly at ND. I hear people talking about the Administration's commitment to academics as if it is distasteful. It's not, and their priorities are in the right place, in my opinion.

I agree. The funny thing is the perception is that Stanford is still the defacto leader when it comes to student athletes taking academics first. I don't recall which of the dozen "Fire BK" threads it was in, but some talking heads were discussing BK "throwing kids under the bus" and one guy mentioned Stanford as "The only school that turns away kids for academic reasons." I'm serious. They painted Stanford as the bastion of the student athlete experience, that this guy said they were in a league by themself. Fortunately the others disagreed with the guy, but there's a perception out there that Stanford still does all the right things and is the example for what other schools should be doing.

 

[ulukinatme]

I'm with GK on this. Our recent recruiting classes, current player, and those that have recently went on the the NFL show ND can still pull the talent. No doubt ND is harder to get into, and harder to stay afloat at, than most any other college. But recruiting and talent has been more than good in recent years.

It's been interesting to see a handful of players that were not successful on the field here, but went on to be very successful at the NFL level. How much of that is struggling with class work and then when their academic responsibilities are no longer there they begin to excel on the field?

 

[Irish Insanity]

 

[GATTACA!]

I agree. The funny thing is the perception is that Stanford is still the defacto leader when it comes to student athletes taking academics first. I don't recall which of the dozen "Fire BK" threads it was in, but some talking heads were discussing BK "throwing kids under the bus" and one guy mentioned Stanford as "The only school that turns away kids for academic reasons." I'm serious. They painted Stanford as the bastion of the student athlete experience, that this guy said they were in a league by themself. Fortunately the others disagreed with the guy, but there's a perception out there that Stanford still does all the right things and is the example for what other schools should be doing.

Yepp this^ Stanford is still held up as the shining example even though we all know they aren't. They play the game and put a good face on and it works. They allow players to take easier classes, they let in players that are well below their academic standards, and they toy with recruits that they know won't qualify just to screw other programs.

As long as I've been a fan (my whole life) no one has given ND credit for doing the right things. Every person you talk to has the idea that ND is just as bad as FSU, OSU, insert P5 football factory, ect. No matter what statistical evidence you give the general public is convinced we are just as dirty as everyone else.

So we're shooting ourselves in the foot for brownie points that we aren't even being awarded. ND doesn't need to go all the way and start allowing jucos, guys with act scores in the low teens, and criminals, but for christ sake can we please actually field a full roster once?? The administration can still have their graduation % title, but the coursework needs to be lightened significantly. If anyone thinks that the three midterms Kizer had on his plate this week had no impact on his on the field performance you're kidding yourself. So maybe a sports science major needs to be added. Allowing these kids to focus more on football would be a major step towards winning a championship.

 

[philipm31]

This should be a fireable offense, right there.

Seriously.

 

[gkIrish]

It's been interesting to see a handful of players that were not successful on the field here, but went on to be very successful at the NFL level. How much of that is struggling with class work and then when their academic responsibilities are no longer there they begin to excel on the field?

I worked 16 hours per week, was President of a club, a contributing member of a few others, and generally didn't put all that much effort into my studies while a student at ND. I did fine. That is just anecdotal evidence and maybe I was a bit smarter than some of these players but I think the "struggles with class work" are severely overblown. Yes, some players may struggle and probably don't belong at ND academically, but this surely doesn't apply to more than a handful of players on the team.

 

[ulukinatme]

I worked 16 hours per week, was President of a club, a contributing member of a few others, and generally didn't put all that much effort into my studies while a student at ND. I did fine. That is just anecdotal evidence and maybe I was a bit smarter than some of these players but I think the "struggles with class work" are severely overblown. Yes, some players may struggle and probably don't belong at ND academically, but this surely doesn't apply to more than a handful of players on the team.

True, but these players put more than 16 hours into football each week between games, practices, travel, lifting, and other football related activities (Mass, interviews, pep rallies, etc). Sure, other students have to do some of those things too, but some of them are optional for regular students to attend like pep rallies. Football is a big commitment. It's hard to review a giant playbook when they have to use the free time they have for studies.

 

[gkIrish]

True, but these players put more than 16 hours into football each week between games, practices, travel, lifting, and other football related activities (Mass, interviews, pep rallies, etc). Sure, other students have to do some of those things too, but some of them are optional for regular students to attend like pep rallies. Football is a big commitment. It's hard to review a giant playbook when they have to use the free time they have for studies.

Not trying to diminish the amount of time or effort players have to put in to succeed. I'm just saying I don't think it's an excuse for poor play.

This may sound stupid but I was drunk probably 4 nights a week on average which is way more than football players. All those nights lost at a bar or party and mornings lost to hangovers add up lolololol.