Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[mgriff]

At least once the election is over we can move into two separate camps again and begin criticizing each other on Brian Kelly's ability to coach at ND!

Gotta focus on the positives people!

 

[TP81989]

Disagree with Klatt about Schiano, but otherwise he was spot on.

https://youtu.be/ETB85s-gkec

 

[ulukinatme]

Disagree with Klatt about Schiano, but otherwise he was spot on.

https://youtu.be/ETB85s-gkec

Really? I think that dude was off base on everything. He doesn't understand Notre Dame at all. While we're not as strict as Stanford on who we bring in (Some say we're close, others say it's harder because we don't force players into jock courses), we still have to vet players as students first, and players second. Klatt thinks Stanford is the only one that does that, totally not true. If that's the case, then guys like Isaiah McKenzie get in.

Klatt thinks Schiano would do better than BK, yet in 10 years at Rutgers (And I know it's Rutgers, but they weren't even in the B1G at the time) he had one really good season where they were ranked. ..but they were still tied for 2nd in the Big East.

He also thought BK wasn't a marquee coach. Maybe some of that shine has faded, but he certainly turned Cincinnati into a winner while he was there. He won national championships at GVS. He got us to the championship for the first time in 24 years, even if we got skunked. He's fallen off a bit recently, but his history shows he's a good coach at every stop he's been.

The dude has an axe to grind.

 

[irishff1014]

Really? I think that dude was off base on everything. He doesn't understand Notre Dame at all. While we're not as strict as Stanford on who we bring in (Some say we're close, others say it's harder because we don't force players into jock courses), we still have to vet players as students first, and players second. Klatt thinks Stanford is the only one that does that, totally not true. If that's the case, then guys like Isaiah McKenzie get in.

Klatt thinks Schiano would do better than BK, yet in 10 years at Rutgers (And I know it's Rutgers, but they weren't even in the B1G at the time) he had one really good season where they were ranked. ..but they were still tied for 2nd in the Big East.

He also thought BK wasn't a marquee coach. Maybe some of that shine has faded, but he certainly turned Cincinnati into a winner while he was there. He won national championships at GVS. He got us to the championship for the first time in 24 years, even if we got skunked. He's fallen off a bit recently, but his history shows he's a good coach at every stop he's been.

The dude has an axe to grind.

Another dude that doesn't have a clue

 

[Irish#1]

What I'm saying is that if you accept that the reporters posing these questions are doing so honestly, without an agenda; then you should extend the same courtesy to the players.

I'm not sure you can. Reporters and players are coming at this from two totally different perspectives. One is doing this as a vocation and not under the rule of the HC. The players are playing for the HC and have to answer to him.

 

[Cackalacky]

I'm not sure you can. Reporters and players are coming at this from two totally different perspectives. One is doing this as a vocation and not under the rule of the HC. The players are playing for the HC and have to answer to him.

Agree. I don't think anyone here is giving the media a pass of having no bias. Everyone is biased for any number of reasons. Hence (IMO), the validity of the answers is dubious at best and should not count as proper evidence to the state of the program. Assuming both reporters and players are unbiased is a non-sequitur. If you assume both groups are being completely truthful then you are knowingly basing your opinion off obviously biased information.

Add to that, the fact that we only have 3 data points of players that are ""ALLOWED" to talk to the media. If I said to someone..." I want you to decide whether something is valid or not. I am going to give you three points of biased data. I have 82 more data points that may or may not be biased but you cant see those and must make a choice on the three data points I give you." I think most people here would say they cant make and informed decision.

 

[PANDFAN]

"Everywhere that I have been I’ve had similar scenarios where our team is doing the things that they need to do and it’s just a matter of time before they’re going to start winning. And I believe this group is going to win for a long time. There are a lot of young players that are learning and growing. …I’m very confident that it’s, as I said, they’re going to start winning because they’re doing the things that I’ve seen winners do."


BK told his team that it reminds him of "my Grand Valley State team in 1999. We went 5-5-1 and I think then we went 50-3 or 50-4. So make sure you get that out. We’re ready to go 50-4.

"It reminds me of a team that, once they gain their confidence and once they break through, they’re gonna have some success for a while.”

 

[ThePiombino]

"Everywhere that I have been I’ve had similar scenarios where our team is doing the things that they need to do and it’s just a matter of time before they’re going to start winning. And I believe this group is going to win for a long time. There are a lot of young players that are learning and growing. …I’m very confident that it’s, as I said, they’re going to start winning because they’re doing the things that I’ve seen winners do."


BK told his team that it reminds him of "my Grand Valley State team in 1999. We went 5-5-1 and I think then we went 50-3 or 50-4. So make sure you get that out. We’re ready to go 50-4.

"It reminds me of a team that, once they gain their confidence and once they break through, they’re gonna have some success for a while.”

Sign me the fuck up. But alas, I doubt it...

 

[kmoose]

Agree. I don't think anyone here is giving the media a pass of having no bias. Everyone is biased for any number of reasons. Hence (IMO), the validity of the answers is dubious at best and should not count as proper evidence to the state of the program. Assuming both reporters and players are unbiased is a non-sequitur. If you assume both groups are being completely truthful then you are knowingly basing your opinion off obviously biased information.

Add to that, the fact that we only have 3 data points of players that are ""ALLOWED" to talk to the media. If I said to someone..." I want you to decide whether something is valid or not. I am going to give you three points of biased data. I have 82 more data points that may or may not be biased but you cant see those and must make a choice on the three data points I give you." I think most people here would say they cant make and informed decision.

What data points exist that Kelly has lost the team?

 

[Irish Insanity]

I'm an OG Brian Kelly Revisit guy.

I don't think he's a bad coach. Hell, honestly, he was great coach. But for whatever reason, he's not what he once was.

BK can win a championship, I'm just not sure it will ever happen here.

 

[Cackalacky]

What data points exist that Kelly has lost the team?

First, to be clear.... I am not making that argument and I am not defending those that are.

Second. I would like to see the other 82 data points before making an informed opinion. But an important indicator for me is on-the-field results and the manner in which those results are achieved. This year in particular, we have seen very little senior leadership, a lack of improvement in many upperclassmen and in some cases regression, the inability to handle obviously inferior competition, no sideline enthusiasm (I am sure others could add more to this list) all leading to a 2-4 record. These are big picture items I see as major problems that well coached teams do not have. Obviously the value you put on these is dependent upon how much weight you give them.

Third... BK is notorious for being fairly transparent after games in his interviews. He challenges/belittles his teams even in wins. He went so far recently to say there is a teamwide lack of passion and fire. Why would that be the case? Not being focused for one game is understandable. Not going out to fully compete in multiple games... well... that is concerning from my viewpoint. Again, with our talent available, this is a system/coach issue and the talent not responding. THe concern is why the team is not responding/improving.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Hell, honestly, he was great coach. But for whatever reason, he's not what he once was.

That happens with a lot of coaches. They just lose their edge or drive or something. Maybe it's age or not keeping up with changes in the game. Most likely, a combination of all those things. They go from being great head coaches to letting their program fall by the wayside. We've seen it in recent years with Fulmer, Spurrier, Mack Brown, and others. Probably happening with Dantonio at MSU. It's not the same as just having a bad season or two. Hard to define the difference, but most of us know it when we see it. It's like watching a once great fighter who starts to get hit with punches he once could avoid, hesitate just a fraction of a second on pulling the trigger, and struggle with opponents he'd once been able to beat with ease.

 

[NDohio]

Fair enough, I can see how that's annoying. It was a poor attempt to head nod towards the problem without putting specific players on blast on the internet. When the season is over and they've moved on, I'll circle back to this.

Thanks for recognizing that...

 

[Wingman Ray]

I'm an OG Brian Kelly Revisit guy.

I don't think he's a bad coach. Hell, honestly, he was great coach. But for whatever reason, he's not what he once was.

BK can win a championship, I'm just not sure it will ever happen here.

I have to ask what team that would hire BK would get better recruiting than ND? Look at recruiting over the past 5 years and the only teams that come to mind that are better recruiting year in year out are Bama, OSU, USC. Stanford is neck and neck and Mich has been much worse prior to the past 2 years.

I cannot see where OSU, Bama nor USC would ever hire BK.

ND has the talent. MUCH better talent than any team they have played this year. The coach just has sucked majorly.

 

[Wingman Ray]

That happens with a lot of coaches. They just lose their edge or drive or something. Maybe it's age or not keeping up with changes in the game. Most likely, a combination of all those things. They go from being great head coaches to letting their program fall by the wayside. We've seen it in recent years with Fulmer, Spurrier, Mack Brown, and others. Probably happening with Dantonio at MSU. It's not the same as just having a bad season or two. Hard to define the difference, but most of us know it when we see it. It's like watching a once great fighter who starts to get hit with punches he once could avoid, hesitate just a fraction of a second on pulling the trigger, and struggle with opponents he'd once been able to beat with ease.

Great post Bishop

 

[NDgradstudent]

BK told his team that it reminds him of "my Grand Valley State team in 1999. We went 5-5-1 and I think then we went 50-3 or 50-4. So make sure you get that out. We’re ready to go 50-4.

"It reminds me of a team that, once they gain their confidence and once they break through, they’re gonna have some success for a while.”

This guy is truly delusional. He has not consistently beaten elite teams at any point during his time here. This season just reminds us that he can lose to garbage teams too.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I have to ask what team that would hire BK would get better recruiting than ND? Look at recruiting over the past 5 years and the only teams that come to mind that are better recruiting year in year out are Bama, OSU, USC. Stanford is neck and neck and Mich has been much worse prior to the past 2 years.

I cannot see where OSU, Bama nor USC would ever hire BK.

ND has the talent. MUCH better talent than any team they have played this year. The coach just has sucked majorly.

It has nothing to do with talent. I just think he's ran his course here. Change is good for people, and programs as well.

 

[NDShark]

This guy is truly delusional. He has not consistently beaten elite teams at any point during his time here. This season just reminds us that he can lose to garbage teams too.

The pieces are there to do good things. Maybe not 50-4 against major competition, but I feel that once this team puts it all together, gets some more experience, good things will come.

 

[phork]

My comparison would be Hoke and Harbaugh. Harbaugh has turned Hokes mediocre players into NFL talent in the span of 2 years. They are headed to 11-0 before their pants get taken down at OSU but will be in the chatter for a playoff spot . All with plugin QBs and RBs.

BK, 7 years, 1 NC championship decleating and losses to teams that really matter. This team should NOT be 2-4 in year 7.

 

[kmoose]

Third... BK is notorious for being fairly transparent after games in his interviews. He challenges/belittles his teams even in wins. He went so far recently to say there is a teamwide lack of passion and fire. Why would that be the case? Not being focused for one game is understandable. Not going out to fully compete in multiple games... well... that is concerning from my viewpoint. Again, with our talent available, this is a system/coach issue and the talent not responding. THe concern is why the team is not responding/improving.

That's one way to look at it. Another is......... this team has not quit in any game. They have been in every game. They have battled to the end of every game. They have NOT quit. That is not an indication of a team that has quit on their coach. In my opinion, people are panicking because the offense went flat in the last game. A game played in the midst of a hurricane, mind you. But because the offense was terrible in that game, the chicken littles are crying that the sky is falling. I want to see what ND does tomorrow. How they rebound. Unfortunately, I will probably have to miss the game, since my parents are in town and the last thing my 78 year old mother is going to want to do, on a sunny Fall day in Upstate New York, is sit around indoors watching football. If this offense puts up 500+ yards and 35+ points on Stanford, then I hope some people will come back in off of the ledge.

 

[Cackalacky]

That's one way to look at it. Another is......... this team has not quit in any game. They have been in every game. They have battled to the end of every game. They have NOT quit. That is not an indication of a team that has quit on their coach. In my opinion, people are panicking because the offense went flat in the last game. A game played in the midst of a hurricane, mind you. But because the offense was terrible in that game, the chicken littles are crying that the sky is falling. I want to see what ND does tomorrow. How they rebound. Unfortunately, I will probably have to miss the game, since my parents are in town and the last thing my 78 year old mother is going to want to do, on a sunny Fall day in Upstate New York, is sit around indoors watching football. If this offense puts up 500+ yards and 35+ points on Stanford, then I hope some people will come back in off of the ledge.

Looking at the way you say is kind of supporting what I am saying. Why are we just "in" the games against vastly inferior opponents? What are those reasons. I think they are the ones I posted above. And people aren't upset over just one game. I can't really separate BVG's term this year and the other games but the defense lost us the first two games and the offense has been flat 2 of the last 3 and got beat down by a sucky MSU team regardless of conditions.

 

[NDgradstudent]

The pieces are there to do good things. Maybe not 50-4 against major competition, but I feel that once this team puts it all together, gets some more experience, good things will come.

What do you mean by saying that good things will come once "this" team puts it together? The time for that has long past. We probably won't even make the Lysol Bowl, but so what if we do? It's year 7. The only good thing that might come of this season is that we get a new coach.

 

[kmoose]

Looking at the way you say is kind of supporting what I am saying. Why are we just "in" the games against vastly inferior opponents? What are those reasons. I think they are the ones I posted above. And people aren't upset over just one game. I can't really separate BVG's term this year and the other games but the defense lost us the first two games and the offense has been flat 2 of the last 3 and got beat down by a sucky MSU team regardless of conditions.

But listen, you are talking about whether or not this team is where it is supposed to be. I think it is clearly not. But that doesn't mean that Kelly has lost the team. It means that the team has underachieved. That might certainly be the coaches' fault, but the kids fighting hard clearly indicates that they have not quit on their coach(es). Devin Studstill is getting some good reps, as are Love and Vaughn. In fact, all three of them were starters for the NC State game.

I didn't say people are upset over just one game. I said that I think that one game sent some over the edge and caused them to panic.

If you think the offense has been flat in two of the last three games, then I have to wonder what games you have been watching......

the last 3 games:

Duke: 534 yards and 35 points.
Syracuse: 654 yards and 50 points.
NC State: 113 yards and 3 points.

I'm not sure which of Duke or Stanford you consider "flat"....

 

[RDU Irish]

I think it is a larger issue of coaching failure to address obvious tactical situations and refuse to adjust to the situation on the ground. That is what has me out of BKs camp. Just because the offense is producing well does not mean they are optimizing it. If you have an elite offense it SHOULD be putting up 50 points game on the likes of Duke, Syracuse and NC State.

 

[Cackalacky]

But listen, you are talking about whether or not this team is where it is supposed to be. I think it is clearly not. But that doesn't mean that Kelly has lost the team. It means that the team has underachieved. That might certainly be the coaches' fault, but the kids fighting hard clearly indicates that they have not quit on their coach(es). Devin Studstill is getting some good reps, as are Love and Vaughn. In fact, all three of them were starters for the NC State game.

I didn't say people are upset over just one game. I said that I think that one game sent some over the edge and caused them to panic.

If you think the offense has been flat in two of the last three games, then I have to wonder what games you have been watching......

the last 3 games:

Duke: 534 yards and 35 points.
Syracuse: 654 yards and 50 points.
NC State: 113 yards and 3 points.

I'm not sure which of Duke or Stanford you consider "flat"....

Ok the goal posts are moving here. Instead of skirting this issue please answer my question as to WHY, with this talent level of players, are we being played to dramatic endings with inferior competition? Because that is the thrust of my point.

I have said nothing about where they are supposed to be. I said there are clear coach and system related issues causing them to be 2-4 against terrible opponents. I apologize I was thinking MSU game was one of the last 3. My mistake. But still total yards and points are just offensive stats and not other important ones.Also that offensive out put should be enough to beat almost anyone on our schedule this year. But you ignore offensive and defensive efficiency. Special teams have been poor. Both have been atrocious putting more problems on the offense...WHY? WITH THIS TALENT WHY?

Then you talk about young guys getting snaps? What does that mean to what we are talking about? Nothing really IMO. Young guys getting snaps does not mean they believe in what BK is doing. Its not proof positive of anything.

 

[kmoose]

Ok the goal posts are moving here. Instead of skirting this issue please answer my question as to WHY, with this talent level of players, are we being played to dramatic endings with inferior competition? Because that is the thrust of my point.

I have said nothing about where they are supposed to be. I said there are clear coach and system related issues causing them to be 2-4 against terrible opponents. I apologize I was thinking MSU game was one of the last 3. My mistake. But still total yards and points are just offensive stats and not other important ones.Also that offensive out put should be enough to beat almost anyone on our schedule this year. But you ignore offensive and defensive efficiency. Special teams have been poor. Both have been atrocious putting more problems on the offense...WHY? WITH THIS TALENT WHY?

Then you talk about young guys getting snaps? What does that mean to what we are talking about? Nothing really IMO. Young guys getting snaps does not mean they believe in what BK is doing. Its not proof positive of anything.

The goal posts are NOT moving. The topic of the discussion that you inserted yourself into was whether or not Kelly has lost the team. I define that as the team quitting on him. I think it's clear that the team has not quit on him, and the underachievement doesn't support that they have, when taking into account that they have been fighting to the end in each and every game. But now you want to move the conversation to whether or not the coaches are getting the results that the talent indicates they should. That's a valid question and topic of conversation, but it isn't the question that we were discussing.

 

[Cackalacky]

First, to be clear.... I am not making that argument and I am not defending those that are.

Second. I would like to see the other 82 data points before making an informed opinion. But an important indicator for me is on-the-field results and the manner in which those results are achieved. This year in particular, we have seen very little senior leadership, a lack of improvement in many upperclassmen and in some cases regression, the inability to handle obviously inferior competition, no sideline enthusiasm (I am sure others could add more to this list) all leading to a 2-4 record. These are big picture items I see as major problems that well coached teams do not have. Obviously the value you put on these is dependent upon how much weight you give them.

Third... BK is notorious for being fairly transparent after games in his interviews. He challenges/belittles his teams even in wins. He went so far recently to say there is a teamwide lack of passion and fire. Why would that be the case? Not being focused for one game is understandable. Not going out to fully compete in multiple games... well... that is concerning from my viewpoint. Again, with our talent available, this is a system/coach issue and the talent not responding. THe concern is why the team is not responding/improving.

The goal posts are NOT moving. The topic of the discussion that you inserted yourself into was whether or not Kelly has lost the team. I define that as the team quitting on him. I think it's clear that the team has not quit on him, and the underachievement doesn't support that they have, when taking into account that they have been fighting to the end in each and every game. But now you want to move the conversation to whether or not the coaches are getting the results that the talent indicates they should. That's a valid question and topic of conversation, but it isn't the question that we were discussing.

I clearly said I am NOT making that argument. I have not made that argument. I injected myself at the point you said that 3 player interviews was valid to support the opinion that the team supports BK. I simply said no that is not true. I expounded saying for me that the on field actions/results are concerning and more telling to the state of the team than an interview with 0.1% of the team. That is ALL. Anything else is you making shit up. I dont appreciate that. You then proceed to not address my points and inject that because offense is good and young guys are getting snaps that somehow negates my points about senior leadership, lack of motivation and drive that Kelly himself has gone on record about...while valid to a degree is unconvincing IMO. Who is moving the goal post....

But you still wont answer my question as to WHY IS THE TEAM 2-4 WITH THIS TALENT? It is a simple straight forward question. One you have now dodged three times. But I am sure you will pull a "God of the Gaps" type shift to point to some minutae or discrepancy moving the goal posts again.

 

[Cackalacky]

Well that is one way to look at it.

Another is that what Kizer says may just be coach speak by the players. It may be his understanding of what BK has told them. It is a very "professional" answer in any manner of understanding. SO I dont think we can conclusively say that the players "support" BK based on random and limited interviews from the players.

The converse is it is a bad look for the players to answer in a manner that does not reflect well on BK. Regardless, we gleam little of the inner workings from any player or coach interviews. I honestly dont let interviews sway me one way or the other. Its very shortsighted to base an opinion on interviews. On the field actions carry much more wight for me than these things. I mean the extreme end is trying to discern any of the inner goings on of the Patriots by listening to Belichik. He literally gives you shit for answers and people try to parse the good shit from the bad shit/irrelevant shit. Pointless in my opinion.

:Eyeroll:.... the entire point of what I posted was that interviews are terrible ways to gleam information of the inner-goings on of the team. I did not say you were wrong or I was right. But you say 3 of the leaders are for BK. Great. That is three data points. There are 100 other data points were are missing. Gleaming anything about the team from the three leaders allowed to speak to the media... is well...unfounded IMO. But that is just me.

Not to the journalists. But they are to us because the answers are not reliable. Its entertainment at best.

I immediately regret responding to kmoose....

First, to be clear.... I am not making that argument and I am not defending those that are.

Second. I would like to see the other 82 data points before making an informed opinion. But an important indicator for me is on-the-field results and the manner in which those results are achieved. This year in particular, we have seen very little senior leadership, a lack of improvement in many upperclassmen and in some cases regression, the inability to handle obviously inferior competition, no sideline enthusiasm (I am sure others could add more to this list) all leading to a 2-4 record. These are big picture items I see as major problems that well coached teams do not have. Obviously the value you put on these is dependent upon how much weight you give them.

Third... BK is notorious for being fairly transparent after games in his interviews. He challenges/belittles his teams even in wins. He went so far recently to say there is a teamwide lack of passion and fire. Why would that be the case? Not being focused for one game is understandable. Not going out to fully compete in multiple games... well... that is concerning from my viewpoint. Again, with our talent available, this is a system/coach issue and the talent not responding. THe concern is why the team is not responding/improving.

Looking at the way you say is kind of supporting what I am saying. Why are we just "in" the games against vastly inferior opponents? What are those reasons. I think they are the ones I posted above. And people aren't upset over just one game. I can't really separate BVG's term this year and the other games but the defense lost us the first two games and the offense has been flat 2 of the last 3 and got beat down by a sucky MSU team regardless of conditions.

Ok the goal posts are moving here. Instead of skirting this issue please answer my question as to WHY, with this talent level of players, are we being played to dramatic endings with inferior competition? Because that is the thrust of my point.

I have said nothing about where they are supposed to be. I said there are clear coach and system related issues causing them to be 2-4 against terrible opponents. I apologize I was thinking MSU game was one of the last 3. My mistake. But still total yards and points are just offensive stats and not other important ones.Also that offensive out put should be enough to beat almost anyone on our schedule this year. But you ignore offensive and defensive efficiency. Special teams have been poor. Both have been atrocious putting more problems on the offense...WHY? WITH THIS TALENT WHY?

Then you talk about young guys getting snaps? What does that mean to what we are talking about? Nothing really IMO. Young guys getting snaps does not mean they believe in what BK is doing. Its not proof positive of anything.

I clearly said I am NOT making that argument. I have not made that argument. I injected myself at the point you said that 3 player interviews was valid to support the opinion that the team supports BK. I simply said no that is not true. I expounded saying for me that the on field actions/results are concerning and more telling to the state of the team than an interview with 0.1% of the team. That is ALL. Anything else is you making shit up. I dont appreciate that. You then proceed to not address my points and inject that because offense is good and young guys are getting snaps that somehow negates my points about senior leadership, lack of motivation and drive that Kelly himself has gone on record about... Who is moving the goal post....

But you still wont answer my question as to WHY IS THE TEAM 2-4 WITH THIS TALENT? It is a simple straight forward question. One you have now dodged three times. But I am sure you will pull a "God of the Gaps" type shift to point to some minutae or discrepancy moving the goal posts again.

Please tell me where I made that argument. Here are all of my contributions since I first posted. I will wait.

 

[Cackalacky]

 

[WestCoast]