Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

Brian Kelly Revisited


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Free Manera

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The Hiestand thing definitely happened. The II guys confirmed it and they don't confirm things if they aren't sure. Also it wasn't just in the offseason. They were meeting in-season too. However, no one really knows the extent of it.

Most likely, it was just that those guys loved Hiestand, and he made them very good players. So they wanted to spend time with him. Kelly probably knew about it, so no big deal.

But. It is possible Kelly didn't know about it, and they sought out help because they did not understand/respect/agree with what Quinn was teaching. Which would certainly reflect poorly on Quinn's coaching.

Who knows. I think everyone is just searching for answers because the drop off on the O line this year is kind of extraordinary. Injuries are an issue obviously, but still. There are literally no linemen playing well. Madden was an All-American at Marshall and looks awful. There are missed assignments leading to run throughs, guys just getting blown into the backfield multiple times a game, etc. Just a hapless group out there.
 

Irish#1

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Prister wrote that he thinks the biggest issue with the line is confidence.
 

Dale

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I think the Hiestand thing is getting way overblown without us knowing the actual convos.

Having like a planned dinner with some of the guys and Hiestand where they talk football is 100% what I would expect. They are not only athletes but ND students and should be seeking out any knowledge they can get.

Going to Hiestand to ask what he thinks of Pitt this week and blocking scheme specific would be worrisome.

Asking Hiestand for pointers over the offseason again same as scenario A.

Tuning out Quinn in favor of what Hiestand says is worrisome.

There is a 100% reasonable, not alarming possibilities here and some that 100% would be really bad. Taking a side on what it was without someone credible vouching for that side I wouldn’t be comfortable with
 

ulukinatme

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Honest question, how crazy is it for OLmen to seek out private coaching during the Summer? Quarterbacks have been doing it for years. I do think it’s a bad look if it was the former OL coach at the school (Hiestand) and done on the down low. I’m assuming players can’t be working with their position coaches at the school during the off season. Are all positions moving towards the QB model? Do WRs look for specific coaches during the off-season?

It goes beyond that though. From what we're hearing they were also getting instruction during the season, which would point to a lack of coaching on Quinn's part.
 

Pops Freshenmeyer

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There are time limits on player/coach contact outside of the season.

Well, there are in-season limits too, I guess.
 

IrishLax

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Honest question, how crazy is it for OLmen to seek out private coaching during the Summer? Quarterbacks have been doing it for years. I do think it’s a bad look if it was the former OL coach at the school (Hiestand) and done on the down low. I’m assuming players can’t be working with their position coaches at the school during the off season. Are all positions moving towards the QB model? Do WRs look for specific coaches during the off-season?

it's not crazy, but it being facilitated by Chris Watt is a huge red flag for me. Most players get in extra work with specialists in the offseason, but most players are not being directed to their former coach by their current GA.
 

Luckylucci

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I just really don't understand the Rees hate. The offense improved mightily when he replaced Long, and I just don't see a bunch of scheme issues. I see personnel issues, and yeah... QB is a part of that... but for certain it isn't the biggest part.

I do understand the Quinn hate.

I can only speak for myself but I think it's the overall inconsistency of the operation. Whether that is week to week production, production of various positions groups, development of the QB position, and/or overall QB recruiting. Which leads me to believe he's probably just having a hard time managing it all. He's a young coach that's not only calling plays but has to managed an entire room of coaches who all have vastly more experience than him. I think some of the dysfunction probably stems from that. How often is Tommy vetoing decisions? How often is he applying pressure to other position coaches whether that is in recruiting or positional coaching? I don't hate Tommy and I was a fan of the hire. But, I think it just might be a little too much for him at this time, at this place.

Last year I think is a good example. He had in a very good cast of OL, QB, and RB's. They chose to structure the offense the way that they did. And, they finished #17 in OFEI. That's not bad, pretty good, but it's also not elite. In fact, I would bet they thought they underperformed. Sounds like some of Book's NFL statements say as much. The QB that he coached for 3 years never got better at the issues that plagued him over the course of those 3 years. In fact, at times, 2020 Ian Book looked as lost as ever in the pocket. Because of it, they were never able to develop what would take them to the next level. I believe Tommy should share in a lot of that criticism. I think folks tend to forget that none of Ian's important numbers got better from 2018 to 2020. The really bottomed out in 2019 and then improved in 2020 but stayed below 2018 levels. He still had worse comp pct., yds/att., and QBR in 2020 than he did in 2018. He also had less yds/game in 2020 than he did in 2018. The only stats that are really better were in 2019 he averaged more passing td's/game and he threw less interceptions in both years. For those that will say it was by design, I'm not disputing that. But, that design was his choice and had it's shortcomings. Those shortcoming were pretty glaring for Book. And, it calls into question why couldn't Rees develop a QB and offense that could do both. Is that a lot to ask? Yes. Should it be a requirement for the offense at ND? Yes, it should.

Fast forward to today and they felt they had to get Coan. That's largely due to his job recruiting the position or lack thereof. They felt they had to structure an offense a certain way for him and this team. And, so far, those results (sans one game) are pretty fricking bad. My feelings are, Tommy isn't just a play caller. He should be overseeing everything that goes on with the offense. He's watched Lugg play for multiple years. He should've played a role in evaluating Patterson at C versus other positions. Correll at LG. And bringing in Madden. Those are things I would think most OC's would be very involved in since they are very fundamental in running whatever offense he plans to run. Besides Madden, all of these guys have been here for awhile. Rees should know what he has or have plans to do something else.

The 2022 QB recruiting cycle continues to look like the debacle we've illustrated before. Not only did Tommy stumble and bumble around for months during Covid not getting anything accomplished but it sounds like we're finally getting a somewhat public mea culpa on this. They want 2 QB's. I love the decision let me make that very clear. But, similarly to the decision to play Pyne in the 2nd half against Cincy (also love that decision), it should have came sooner. Being behind or late has it's consequences. We know what they were for last Saturday. And, we'll probably eventually find out what the cost will be for QB recruiting. Either Tommy isn't evaluating this stuff, fast enough, in real time. Therefore others are having to force his hand, which would be a problem. Or, Tommy doesn't have enough say in the decision making, which is also a problem. Either way, there is enough here to say the entire operation isn't running like an offense that expects to compete for the playoffs, and win, perennially.
 

ulukinatme

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I can only speak for myself but I think it's the overall inconsistency of the operation. Whether that is week to week production, production of various positions groups, development of the QB position, and/or overall QB recruiting. Which leads me to believe he's probably just having a hard time managing it all. He's a young coach that's not only calling plays but has to managed an entire room of coaches who all have vastly more experience than him. I think some of the dysfunction probably stems from that. How often is Tommy vetoing decisions? How often is he applying pressure to other position coaches whether that is in recruiting or positional coaching? I don't hate Tommy and I was a fan of the hire. But, I think it just might be a little too much for him at this time, at this place.

Last year I think is a good example. He had in a very good cast of OL, QB, and RB's. They chose to structure the offense the way that they did. And, they finished #17 in OFEI. That's not bad, pretty good, but it's also not elite. In fact, I would bet they thought they underperformed. Sounds like some of Book's NFL statements say as much. The QB that he coached for 3 years never got better at the issues that plagued him over the course of those 3 years. In fact, at times, 2020 Ian Book looked as lost as ever in the pocket. Because of it, they were never able to develop what would take them to the next level. I believe Tommy should share in a lot of that criticism. I think folks tend to forget that none of Ian's important numbers got better from 2018 to 2020. The really bottomed out in 2019 and then improved in 2020 but stayed below 2018 levels. He still had worse comp pct., yds/att., and QBR in 2020 than he did in 2018. He also had less yds/game in 2020 than he did in 2018. The only stats that are really better were in 2019 he averaged more passing td's/game and he threw less interceptions in both years. For those that will say it was by design, I'm not disputing that. But, that design was his choice and had it's shortcomings. Those shortcoming were pretty glaring for Book. And, it calls into question why couldn't Rees develop a QB and offense that could do both. Is that a lot to ask? Yes. Should it be a requirement for the offense at ND? Yes, it should.

Fast forward to today and they felt they had to get Coan. That's largely due to his job recruiting the position or lack thereof. They felt they had to structure an offense a certain way for him and this team. And, so far, those results (sans one game) are pretty fricking bad. My feelings are, Tommy isn't just a play caller. He should be overseeing everything that goes on with the offense. He's watched Lugg play for multiple years. He should've played a role in evaluating Patterson at C versus other positions. Correll at LG. And bringing in Madden. Those are things I would think most OC's would be very involved in since they are very fundamental in running whatever offense he plans to run. Besides Madden, all of these guys have been here for awhile. Rees should know what he has or have plans to do something else.

The 2022 QB recruiting cycle continues to look like the debacle we've illustrated before. Not only did Tommy stumble and bumble around for months during Covid not getting anything accomplished but it sounds like we're finally getting a somewhat public mea culpa on this. They want 2 QB's. I love the decision let me make that very clear. But, similarly to the decision to play Pyne in the 2nd half against Cincy (also love that decision), it should have came sooner. Being behind or late has it's consequences. We know what they were for last Saturday. And, we'll probably eventually find out what the cost will be for QB recruiting. Either Tommy isn't evaluating this stuff, fast enough, in real time. Therefore others are having to force his hand, which would be a problem. Or, Tommy doesn't have enough say in the decision making, which is also a problem. Either way, there is enough here to say the entire operation isn't running like an offense that expects to compete for the playoffs, and win, perennially.

Ian Book was also a three star athlete that some would say played above what pundits thought he could do. It's certainly not uncommon for a Kelly QB to start out strong and fail to improve...hell, many regress as time goes on. That's been pretty true for all QB coaches under Kelly at ND, how many have gotten consistently better each year?

Stumble and bumble for months during Covid? For quite a bit there in 2020 many conferences were stumbling and bumbling as they waffled on whether we'd even have a football season. Rees didn't get the benefit of Spring ball his first year as OC. This comment makes no sense to me. 17th is certainly nothing to sneeze at, especially when your starting WRs are a glorified blocking TE, a Northwestern transfer, and a converted QB. Our best receivers for much of the season were Mayer and Kyren.
 

Dale

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Lance Taylor is the run game coordinator so pinning the OL on Quinn and then moving to Rees is not fair. Lance should be having as much if not more contact with the OL
 

Luckylucci

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Ian Book was also a three star athlete that some would say played above what pundits thought he could do. It's certainly not uncommon for a Kelly QB to start out strong and fail to improve...hell, many regress as time goes on. That's been pretty true for all QB coaches under Kelly at ND, how many have gotten consistently better each year?

Stumble and bumble for months during Covid? For quite a bit there in 2020 many conferences were stumbling and bumbling as they waffled on whether we'd even have a football season. Rees didn't get the benefit of Spring ball his first year as OC. This comment makes no sense to me. 17th is certainly nothing to sneeze at, especially when your starting WRs are a glorified blocking TE, a Northwestern transfer, and a converted QB. Our best receivers for much of the season were Mayer and Kyren.

I understand this but I'll judge Rees on what he's done with the position while he's QB coach and OC. Book didn't get better over those 3 years at what he wasn't good at when he started. Book was a good find as a recruit (Tommy did not recruit him) but never developed into a complete QB. Some blame has to be assessed to QB coach and OC.

The stumble and bumble comment was in regards to recruiting. The 2022 recruiting cycle is one that most fans should forget. Rees just sat around and waited for months to do something and never did. While doing so, most elite signal callers were building plans with other programs. That ultimately led us to settling on Angeli after we were late with others.

Yes, I understand that. But, it was also by design. They didn't have to bring in Ben. They didn't have to play Javon. They chose too. They could've went young, fast, and more explosive but they chose not too. And the results were solid. And that's part of the point. If they can't get that group over the hump. Then what unit will? And, if every year we have a subpar position group, somewhere on offense, will it ever happen? And who's responsibility is that? They though it was going to be 2021. Playmakers everywhere, speed on the perimeter, best RB tandem in the country, and we'll just bring in the veteran signal caller that can him them deep. And then for different reasons altogether this is failing miserably.

You can't have an OC and then explain away all the problems that each position group has every year. It's his offense. He should be in charge of building the personnel and then putting the personnel that he has in the best position to be successful. I don't think the 2020 maxed out where they felt they should. Again, we have some public comments from Book on this. And I think they completely misjudged this 2021 OL situation. Rees has watched most of these guys play for years. He has to have some culpability in the matter.
 

NDRock

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Ian Book was also a three star athlete that some would say played above what pundits thought he could do. It's certainly not uncommon for a Kelly QB to start out strong and fail to improve...hell, many regress as time goes on. That's been pretty true for all QB coaches under Kelly at ND, how many have gotten consistently better each year?

Stumble and bumble for months during Covid? For quite a bit there in 2020 many conferences were stumbling and bumbling as they waffled on whether we'd even have a football season. Rees didn't get the benefit of Spring ball his first year as OC. This comment makes no sense to me. 17th is certainly nothing to sneeze at, especially when your starting WRs are a glorified blocking TE, a Northwestern transfer, and a converted QB. Our best receivers for much of the season were Mayer and Kyren.

The glorified blocking TE was a 3rd round pick, the NW guy is playing on the Rams, Mayer will be a 1st round pick and Kyren will be in the league. Davis, not sure. Throw in 4 NFL lineman and that’s a pretty loaded offense.
 

Dale

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The glorified blocking TE was a 3rd round pick, the NW guy is playing on the Rams, Mayer will be a 1st round pick and Kyren will be in the league. Davis, not sure. Throw in 4 NFL lineman and that’s a pretty loaded offense.

I assume he was talking about McKinley. Tremble wasn’t a glorified TE, he just was a TE.
 

Dale

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They chose too. They could've went young, fast, and more explosive but they chose not too.

Who are these guys they chose not to play LY?
 

ulukinatme

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The glorified blocking TE was a 3rd round pick, the NW guy is playing on the Rams, Mayer will be a 1st round pick and Kyren will be in the league. Davis, not sure. Throw in 4 NFL lineman and that’s a pretty loaded offense.

The glorified blocking TE I was talking about was McKiinley. He had some good games, but very inconsistent as a receiver. Skow is playing for the Rams, but hasn't registered a catch yet. No arguments on Mayer and Kyren, especially since they were the consistent play makers all season. The point was that the WR group as a whole under-performed compared to prior years. Love those guys that stepped up when the others didn't, but it would be a stretch to call them world beaters.
 

Luckylucci

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Who are these guys they chose not to play LY?

First consider that I'm not saying they chose wrong but that it was a choice. Getting Davis more involved like they have this year would've also been an option. Consider that in the 10 games Davis played between the 2019 season and 2021 (so far) he has more production than his production in the 11 games he played in 2020. Kind of surprised nobody is talking about this. That was Tommy's choice (or responsibility, depending on how look at it) whether or not to get him more involved. But everyone knows who we had. Lawrence Keys, Joe Wilkins, Braden Lenzy, Jordan Johnson, Xavier Watts, etc.

All choices would have there own merits. I believe they chose right for what they wanted to do. But, when they make that choice, we can't just explain away the limits that they are self imposing on the offense by doing so.
 

Luckylucci

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And, on a separate note, anybody that says the offense was limited vertically on the WR's just isn't paying attention. The slot WR post that Book hit to Davis against Clemson was in the playbook, all year. Literally they run it, all the time. It's the same slot WR post that Coan hit to Davis this year. Book just would not throw it. And, Rees couldn't ever get him to do it with consistency. They tried to get Book to be more vertical and he just wouldn't do it. I remember Book's offseason twitter videos of him dropping these beautiful bombs in workouts to Austin, Ben, etc. Everybody wanted to build a vertical passing game with Book. They were just unsuccessful at consistently doing so when the lights came on. Some of that has to be blamed on QB coach and OC.
 

T-Boone

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With Tommy I think we are asking the wrong question here.
It shouldn't be" "is he fine?", "is he good?", "is it his fault?" it should just be "IS HE THE ABSOLUTE BEST OC/QBC AVAILABLE?".
If he is only here because he is a yes or a positive to the earlier questions (rather than what I submit is the actual question) then it is a lazy hire.
 

GoIrish41

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My biggest frustration is that Austin and Lenzy don’t appear to be good at catching footballs and Styles and Colzie’s reps should reflect that shortcoming. Get Buchner on the field and let him throw it to the young guys. Next season will be all the better for it.
 

Irish#1

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And, on a separate note, anybody that says the offense was limited vertically on the WR's just isn't paying attention. The slot WR post that Book hit to Davis against Clemson was in the playbook, all year. Literally they run it, all the time. It's the same slot WR post that Coan hit to Davis this year. Book just would not throw it. And, Rees couldn't ever get him to do it with consistency. They tried to get Book to be more vertical and he just wouldn't do it. I remember Book's offseason twitter videos of him dropping these beautiful bombs in workouts to Austin, Ben, etc. Everybody wanted to build a vertical passing game with Book. They were just unsuccessful at consistently doing so when the lights came on. Some of that has to be blamed on QB coach and OC.

Not sure you can blame the QBC and OC if the QB has been coached to do it, but won’t pull the trigger. What’s his option, bench Book for who?
 

Luckylucci

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Not sure you can blame the QBC and OC if the QB has been coached to do it, but won’t pull the trigger. What’s his option, bench Book for who?

But, that’s really the point. If his best option is a guy that can’t do everything he wants then he’s not doing his job. Whether that is in recruiting and/or development. He’s not getting it done to the degree someone in his position should.
 

Irish#1

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But, that’s really the point. If his best option is a guy that can’t do everything he wants then he’s not doing his job. Whether that is in recruiting and/or development. He’s not getting it done to the degree someone in his position should.

That's easier said than done. QB's have been a mystery for ages. Look at all of the NFL QB's that were very good in college and never panned out or were no where near their production in college. Or HS kids that never became that AA everyone thought they would be. Doesn't mean all those coaches were to blame when it comes to development.

Having said that, I agree that Tommy needs to step it up in recruiting, but I don't believe he's negligent in the development part. You can lead a horse to water.......
 

Rogue219

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Lance Taylor is the run game coordinator so pinning the OL on Quinn and then moving to Rees is not fair. Lance should be having as much if not more contact with the OL

Good point. However, more often than not these are just titles. How much of the run game is he actually "coordinating"? He's the RB coach. Giving him the extra word salad on his title is pretty common.

That said, Taylor is the guy I'd keep around right now more than any of the others on the offensive staff.
 

Dale

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Good point. However, more often than not these are just titles. How much of the run game is he actually "coordinating"? He's the RB coach. Giving him the extra word salad on his title is pretty common.

That said, Taylor is the guy I'd keep around right now more than any of the others on the offensive staff.

Fair on the title. But Lance is also the on the field voice for Rees in game so I would hope he’s also taken additional responsibility in practice, and is likely getting paid to reflect that. If not with the OL, he’s a former WRs coach, so is he helping there which could certainly use it too?
 

Sea Turtle

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As much as Kelly and Swarbrick have brought to the program, it does seem like the offense is always held together by duct tape and hot glue.

You never go into games thinking 'we're bringing 40+ points today.
 
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