Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[tussin]

I agree with this to an extent. We still deal with major academic and administrative hurdles that the football factories just don't deal with.

The answer is smarter scheduling, better luck, and finding some way to increase the academic success rate without compromising the ND experience. Perhaps some of the posters here that are better versed in the last point can opine if that is actually reasonable.

I know this topic has been covered before, but I'm curious as to what is different now in terms of administrative support versus when Lou was coaching.

 

[RDU Irish]

I love how OSU and Bama get a pass on their schedule in this whole discussion. OSU lost last year the week after they played (and almost lost) to Navy before going on to win a championships (that I believe they did not deserve a shot at playing for).

If ND only wants to win games, they can pick up two FCS opponents and more UMass types, only schedule 2-3 teams ranked somewhere between 10-25 and make the playoffs every other year because they only need to win 2 of their 3 "tough" games to finish with one loss on the season.

Kelly has made huge changes to the way this program is run and it has paid dividends. This program is in the best shape since Holtz and Kelly deserves most of the credit (with Swarbrick eating up a large share as well).

ND is not going to make a title run every year, making the playoffs every 3-4 years with a permanent position in the Top 25 hard for me to call "watered down".

I did get my hopes up after Texas, thought we would finally have a team that trounced non-ranked opponents with 4Q consisting of second team reps. It is still early, Lax makes good points about Virginia maybe being a better team than people give credit. Most likely we are somewhere in between the Texas and VA showing which should be good enough to make a playoff run. With any playoff run, you need to pull some rabbits out of your hat - I am only encouraged by Kizer and Fuller doing just that keep us undefeated.

 

[Irish1289]

That's bull though. If you look at recruiting rankings, ND has averaged a top ten class over the past five years. We get the players, now it's simply a matter of figuring out the best way to help our guys balance football and ND academics ("institutional support" in other words), coaching, and luck.

True, but every year it seems like a handful of the top-ranked guys either fail out, transfer or never enroll. So ND's recruiting ranking is almost always inflated.
I talked with someone who has been involved with at top DE's recruitment, and he said other schools come in and tell recruits to not believe what ND tells them because ND's coaches don't have the control to keep a kid enrolled, and, moreover, a kid will be dropped for academic reasons the minute any adversity happens. And the results bear that out. I don't think any other major program has to do deal with that.

 

[phgreek]

This is what happens when fans put tremendous expectations on teams. Yes, the coaches have some issues that need to be addressed and yes, the defense and/or DC need to get up to speed. But good grief, BK has brought ND back to relevancy all the while doing it with a tremendous amount of his starters either hurt, suspended, and/or transferred.

The buck stops with Kelly and I get that. He is the HC after all. But my question is a simple one. Who would be better at this point to lead ND? And not just a name from a wish list. Who would be better that would actually come to ND and put up with unrealistic expectations and an Admin that doesn't place football high on a priority list. I can't think of many.

Just my two cents worth.

Yup...

Brian Kelly is doing a better job than any coach since Lou Holtz...its not even an opinion...it is fact. I don't begrudge anyone their opinion regarding any coach's perceived weaknesses/mistakes. I think it always makes for good discussion. Somehow that exercise moves to replacement...whatever. When is the last time you could look on the field and see athletes that stack up at every position group...Kelly will be at Notre Dame for as long as he wants to be...I'm guessing he gets a Natty and bails or reaches year 10 and bails.

Who then? ..it won't be Stoops, Urbie, Jimmy Michigan, or Saban...and it won't be D'antonio or Fitz, or Shaw, and no it won't be Bronco. It will be someone Jack finds...if Jack is still doing the job...Chris Peterson is about it...maybe. And I wouldn't take him over Kelly.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I love how OSU and Bama get a pass on their schedule in this whole discussion.

Comparing OSU's schedule with Alabama's schedule is a complete joke. Furthermore, ND's schedule most years isn't any harder or easier than Bama's. Scheduling has not been the Irish's problem. Keeping people healthy, not losing transfers, and the suspensions are what hurts the Irish. No team can play even a schedule comparable to the Buckeyes and expect to have tremendous success when dealing with those issues.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I'm not on the BK is on the hot seat bandwagon, but I really wish we could discuss things like this on a discussion board without people freaking out on both sides. I'm fine with hearing GK and everyone else out that is skeptical and/or wants BK gone. It's fair to discuss - he's not perfect, there are about 2 'perfect' coaches out there, and ND is an elite job so we do have options. I'll still take BK all day, but I want to hear what other think.

Same with my 'shout out and call outs' thread for players that got locked. I wanted to have a week-week discussion and see how players progressed and talk about them and see who's production drops, and who's stock rises. I really don't know why that got shut down, but it's whatever. I thought the comments I had in there were fair to every player. I doubt the players read the threads that aren't about them, and if they do and see that they're disappointing in said-week, these are ND men - they're tough enough to take criticism from some nobody's on the internet. Rant over. GO IRISH.

I may have missed it, but I don't see anyone directly calling for BKs job. There should be nothing wrong with criticism. We shouldn't have to cheer for the great time, and hold our tongues when we are disappointed.

And it's not always about who's a better option or how bad things were before he got here. Mediocrity isn't acceptable in my book.

 

[Monk]

I was going to read through the entire thread, but man has this conversation taken off, so I apologize if this has been touched upon already.

I am only 32 years old so I don't remember first hand how Lou Holtz coached in the late 80's and early 90's. All I really remember is Lou picking grass, which for some reason I loved. That being said I don't know what a championship coach looks like at ND to compare Brian Kelly too. We all know ND does things differently than some of the other championship contenders out there, so the coach has to do things differently as well. I don't know if Brain Kelly is a championship winning caliber coach or not. All I know is he is as close to that as I have seen/remember in my lifetime.

The amount of injuries every year is alarming and I don't know if that is because of the offensive scheme, the conditioning, or just bad luck. So far this year ND has lost key positions and so far this year the backups have stepped up. I don't think anyone is complaining about the running game with CJ and the defensive line has played adequately. Lets see how the QB position turns out before we cut off our nose to spite or face.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

I was going to read through the entire thread, but man has this conversation taken off, so I apologize if this has been touched upon already.

I am only 32 years old so I don't remember first hand how Lou Holtz coached in the late 80's and early 90's. All I really remember is Lou picking grass, which for some reason I loved. That being said I don't know what a championship coach looks like at ND to compare Brian Kelly too. We all know ND does things differently than some of the other championship contenders out there, so the coach has to do things differently as well. I don't know if Brain Kelly is a championship winning caliber coach or not. All I know is he is as close to that as I have seen/remember in my lifetime.

The amount of injuries every year is alarming and I don't know if that is because of the offensive scheme, the conditioning, or just bad luck. So far this year ND has lost key positions and so far this year the backups have stepped up. I don't think anyone is complaining about the running game with CJ and the defensive line has played adequately. Lets see how the QB position turns out before we cut off our nose to spite or face.

I think that this needs to be a serious area of evaluation. The physical preparation staff has some serious questions that need to be answered and addressed.

Side note: I'm also 32 and can't agree more about Lou Picking grass and pacing the sidelines. Man, that was good stuff.

 

[ThePiombino]

The answer is smarter scheduling, better luck, and finding some way to increase the academic success rate without compromising the ND experience. Perhaps some of the posters here that are better versed in the last point can opine if that is actually reasonable.

I know this topic has been covered before, but I'm curious as to what is different now in terms of administrative support versus when Lou was coaching.

I, for one, would love to see some smarter scheduling.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Comparing OSU's schedule with Alabama's schedule is a complete joke. Furthermore, ND's schedule most years isn't any harder or easier than Bama's. Scheduling has not been the Irish's problem. Keeping people healthy, not losing transfers, and the suspensions are what hurts the Irish. No team can play even a schedule comparable to the Buckeyes and expect to have tremendous success when dealing with those issues.

Notre Dame doesn't have the bye-week-like wins that Bama has, i.e., Western Carolina, Charleston Southern, etc. That game often falls before Auburn.

I don't begrudge them that pattern. It's a good idea.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Notre Dame doesn't have the bye-week-like wins that Bama has, i.e., Western Carolina, Charleston Southern, etc. That game often falls before Auburn.

I don't begrudge them that pattern. It's a good idea.

Sure ND does. The Virginia game before Ga Tech should have been a bye week. The Temple game before Pitt as well. The two games before Stanford as well. Don't want to argue schedules as I don't really know if there is one in this case. But I don't think scheduling has been ND's issue. Injuries, transfers, suspensions, etc have been the issues. And I don't know what the answer is to any of them. My original comment was that while Kelly gets the heat for everything good and bad, but some of those things may be more out of his control than others. He has taken the Irish to a higher ground than the last few coaches has. Can he finally get them over the top? Don't know. But it seems some out here don't care for him and my question was who would be better. And I don't really know who that is at this point.

 

[phgreek]

I think that this needs to be a serious area of evaluation. The physical preparation staff has some serious questions that need to be answered and addressed.

Side note: I'm also 32 and can't agree more about Lou Picking grass and pacing the sidelines. Man, that was good stuff.

..I'd be interested to hear what the folks responsible for physical prep had to say. the injuries I've seen on film this year...JJ got rolled up on, MZ got rolled up on, I didn't see TFs clearly, but a knee. seems like those 3 would be hard to do anything in prep to prevent.

I do recall 2011 season...seems like there were a bunch of hammies and such if memory serves...I can see that being a problem. I'd like to see the injuries stacked up to form an opinion...seems like a lot of them were things you can't really do much to prevent in your physical prep.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I don't know if the injuries are due to the S&C program. ND seems to have a pretty solid guy running it. Some of the injuries like MZ's are just flukes. Some of the others could be from poor techniques and such. And I understand debating why MZ was running so much but I don't think one can simply put that on BK as poor play calling. He knew going in that the risk of running a QB is high and appeared to accept that risk as part of the game plan. Whatever the reasons are, I hope you guys can get past them. Amazing the injuries the Irish have had to try and overcome.

 

[phillyirish]

Sure ND does. The Virginia game before Ga Tech should have been a bye week. The Temple game before Pitt as well. The two games before Stanford as well. Don't want to argue schedules as I don't really know if there is one in this case. But I don't think scheduling has been ND's issue. Injuries, transfers, suspensions, etc have been the issues. And I don't know what the answer is to any of them. My original comment was that while Kelly gets the heat for everything good and bad, but some of those things may be more out of his control than others. He has taken the Irish to a higher ground than the last few coaches has. Can he finally get them over the top? Don't know. But it seems some out here don't care for him and my question was who would be better. And I don't really know who that is at this point.

None of those teams, except UMASS, are nearly as bad as Charleston Southern, Mid Tenn, or UL Monroe. Virginia, BC, and Wake Forest are all power 5 conferences teams. Navy wins at least 8 games every year with a fairly competitive schedule. UL Monroe is a Sun belt team, and a bad one at that not having a winning record in 3 years. Mid tenn is passable to fill out a schedule with but they're not as good as Temple who Notre Dame agreed to schedule while they were on the upswing and are a very solid team this year.

 

[AgentJ]

That's bull though. If you look at recruiting rankings, ND has averaged a top ten class over the past five years. We get the players, now it's simply a matter of figuring out the best way to help our guys balance football and ND academics ("institutional support" in other words), coaching, and luck.

We get the players, we don't get results.

So what is the problem? BK or the school?

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

..I'd be interested to hear what the folks responsible for physical prep had to say. the injuries I've seen on film this year...JJ got rolled up on, MZ got rolled up on, I didn't see TFs clearly, but a knee. seems like those 3 would be hard to do anything in prep to prevent.

I do recall 2011 season...seems like there were a bunch of hammies and such if memory serves...I can see that being a problem. I'd like to see the injuries stacked up to form an opinion...seems like a lot of them were things you can't really do much to prevent in your physical prep.

I have no clue what Longo and Co. utilize as there base principles but there are ways to strengthen and thicken tendons and ligaments via the strength training process.

Louie Simmons talks about this in great lengths.

Increasing Explosive Strength and Reactive Method through Plyometrics

Getting Rolled up happens, but i'm starting to get the vibe that either are guys are built out of glass or our Strength Staff is clueless.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Sure ND does. The Virginia game before Ga Tech should have been a bye week. The Temple game before Pitt as well. The two games before Stanford as well. Don't want to argue schedules as I don't really know if there is one in this case. But I don't think scheduling has been ND's issue. Injuries, transfers, suspensions, etc have been the issues. And I don't know what the answer is to any of them. My original comment was that while Kelly gets the heat for everything good and bad, but some of those things may be more out of his control than others. He has taken the Irish to a higher ground than the last few coaches has. Can he finally get them over the top? Don't know. But it seems some out here don't care for him and my question was who would be better. And I don't really know who that is at this point.

Please tell me you're not comparing Virginia, a team with several 5 star and 4 star players and who hung tough last year with the likes of UCLA, Duke and FSU, to a doormat like Coastal Carolina. Please tell me you're not doing that.

And please tell me you're not comparing Temple, 2-0 with wins over Penn St. and Cinci, to The Citadel. PLEASE tell me you're not doing that.

Because no one in their right minds would do that. So no, we definitely did NOT schedule a bye like the SEC does when we scheduled Virginia (one of the ACC 5 we play) and Temple.

 

[Luckylucci]

Reminiscent of last year, on Saturday UVA was 3-4 in the red zone with 3 TD's.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Please tell me you're not comparing Virginia, a team with several 5 star and 4 star players and who hung tough last year with the likes of UCLA, Duke and FSU, to a doormat like Coastal Carolina. Please tell me you're not doing that.

And please tell me you're not comparing Temple, 2-0 with wins over Penn St. and Cinci, to The Citadel. PLEASE tell me you're not doing that.

Because no one in their right minds would do that. So no, we definitely did NOT schedule a bye like the SEC does when we scheduled Virginia (one of the ACC 5 we play) and Temple.

And no one in their right mind would compare Bama's schedule to OSU... or ND's for that fact. The argument was whether ND's schedule was too tough and if that's why ND isn't successful or the reason they seem to have injuries. I don't think that's the case. One even posted Bama's schedule comparable to OSU's. Pretty amazing. I have posted what I think are the underlying reasons for the lack of success Kelly has had the last couple of years. And scheduling isn't one of them.

For the record, just because one has plenty of four and five star players, that doesn't make one a good or great team (see A&M last season). Va, who I have always liked as a school and football team, just isn't there yet. And, plenty on this site have aspirations of ND being a playoff team pre the MZ injury, expected to beat Va easily. Me included. Scheduling is not the issue. Freak injuries, transfers, and suspensions have left the Irish in a difficult spot. Outside of those things, I think ND has a solid year last year and a better year this year.

 

[tussin]

Bama has what amounts to a bye week before each of their four hardest games. I'm sorry but ND's run up to USC just blows anything Bama has to do out of the water.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Bama has what amounts to a bye week before each of their four hardest games. I'm sorry but ND's run up to USC just blows anything Bama has to do out of the water.

Your opinion and I respect that but I think Ga, Ole Miss, and Whisky as a group are better than Ga Tech, Clemson, and Navy. So top end I think Bama has it tougher. Middling and bottom end teams, I think the Irish have it tougher.

IMO, the one schedule issue I see with ND is playing USC after Navy. Not because I think Navy is that good but because of the fact that it always seems the Irish lose a player or two due to the chop blocks from Navy.

 

[Redbar]

Your opinion and I respect that but I think Ga, Ole Miss, and Whisky as a group are better than Ga Tech, Clemson, and Navy. So top end I think Bama has it tougher. Middling and bottom end teams, I think the Irish have it tougher.

IMO, the one schedule issue I see with ND is playing USC after Navy. Not because I think Navy is that good but because of the fact that it always seems the Irish lose a player or two due to the chop blocks from Navy.

Tommy for the most part I appreciate what you are saying, but you can't just pull the teams out of the context of the schedule and compare them. If you play Navy in New York and the next week you play ASU in Tempe, then go back to Indiana to play Louisville and Northwestern, then finish against SC in LA it is different than just looking at the opponent on paper.

Paul Finebaum, before this season, was asked if we were contenders and he said he liked us a lot, 9 wins maybe 10, but we will not be playoff contenders in this era until we did something about our scheduling. When I heard that I was like, "Did he actually just admit that?" I remember on his show he went with the narrative that we don't play anybody, the SEC was the most impossible gauntlet, blah, blah, blah now that he is on ESPN and not just riling up the base he admits that scheduling is a part of the process to winning national championships. Implied in that statement is that the SEC has understood this for a while. Actual opponent, home vs away, and distance travelled, are all factors that deserve to be weighed. Like I said, I appreciate your points though, I agree that scheduling isn't what is holding us back, and I think it is absurd to compare OSU''s schedule BAMA's.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Tommy for the most part I appreciate what you are saying, but you can't just pull the teams out of the context of the schedule and compare them. If you play Navy in New York and the next week you play ASU in Tempe, then go back to Indiana to play Louisville and Northwestern, then finish against SC in LA it is different than just looking at the opponent on paper.

Paul Finebaum, before this season, was asked if we were contenders and he said he liked us a lot, 9 wins maybe 10, but we will not be playoff contenders in this era until we did something about our scheduling. When I heard that I was like, "Did he actually just admit that?" I remember on his show he went with the narrative that we don't play anybody, the SEC was the most impossible gauntlet, blah, blah, blah now that he is on ESPN and not just riling up the base he admits that scheduling is a part of the process to winning national championships. Implied in that statement is that the SEC has understood this for a while. Actual opponent, home vs away, and distance travelled, are all factors that deserve to be weighed. Like I said, I appreciate your points though, I agree that scheduling isn't what is holding us back, and I think it is absurd to compare OSU''s schedule BAMA's.

Agree there are plenty of considerations in scheduling. And Pawl may very well be correct with his comments about ND's scheduling. The demands are really high when you factor in travel time, distance, etc.

 

[ACamp1900]

Schedule is absolutely a part of building a year in year out contender and ND is doing it wrong, I totally agree with Finebaum there...

 

[gkIrish]

Schedule is absolutely a part of building a year in year out contender and ND is doing it wrong, I totally agree with Finebaum there...

The same people that want to keep the schedule at or MORE difficult than the level we have now are the same people that aren't questioning BKs abilities.

I would bet lots of money that if we looked at thread we have on the Optimal Scheduling Model, the same people who yell and scream about criticisms are the same people who don't want to dumb down the schedule.

I've realized its a simple dichotomy. Either you think ND can average 10 wins and be a contender with the right coach and schedule, or you just want to watch good football games every week and stick with a coach that will average 7-9.

 

[RDU Irish]

Tommy - you are straight up trolling saying your powder puff D2 schools perennially placed right before your handful of real opponents is on par with ND. SEC schools RARELY leave their state, let alone their time zone. Without the myth of the ES EEEE CEEE entire conference getting ranked preseason to pump up their SOS the putrid scheduling deserves mocking. If I had a vote I would automatically drop a team two spots every week they play an FCS school. Completely inexcusable, just take a damn bye week at that point.

We have done the math before and the difference between swapping out 3 95%+ win probability games with 3 85% probability games are very substantial when taken in the context of an entire season.

That being said, I give props to LSU and Bama for opening with Wisky the last few years, including actually venturing north of the Mason/Dixon line. F-ing homers, man up and hit the road. I guarantee Texas' piss poor performance was enhanced by the fact a third of their team had probably never been out of Texas given the amount of frosh and red shirts they have on the roster.

 

[phgreek]

The same people that want to keep the schedule at or MORE difficult than the level we have now are the same people that aren't questioning BKs abilities.

I would bet lots of money that if we looked at thread we have on the Optimal Scheduling Model, the same people who yell and scream about criticisms are the same people who don't want to dumb down the schedule.

I've realized its a simple dichotomy. Either you think ND can average 10 wins and be a contender with the right coach and schedule, or you just want to watch good football games every week and stick with a coach that will average 7-9.

...My dad and I used to laugh at Penn State in the 80s because they'd schedule Rutgers, Brown, Temple...and have a couple of good games mixed in. But the crazy old bastard picked up a couple nattys in the 80s for doing shit like that.

...Lou went at everyone...and in the end he got 1.

Many seem to play the Paterno Game (scheduling mind you) to obvious benefit.

The sad thing is, only now is SOS beginning to "matter".

So I'm torn at this point...

I like the tough games...its fun. But I get the downside for the program overall.

So who do you schedule...Idaho, New Mexico State, Wyoming? Those are Ws, but not exactly hotbeds for recruiting either...shrug.

 

[Irish#1]

I was going to read through the entire thread, but man has this conversation taken off, so I apologize if this has been touched upon already.

I am only 32 years old so I don't remember first hand how Lou Holtz coached in the late 80's and early 90's. All I really remember is Lou picking grass, which for some reason I loved. That being said I don't know what a championship coach looks like at ND to compare Brian Kelly too. We all know ND does things differently than some of the other championship contenders out there, so the coach has to do things differently as well. I don't know if Brain Kelly is a championship winning caliber coach or not. All I know is he is as close to that as I have seen/remember in my lifetime.

The amount of injuries every year is alarming and I don't know if that is because of the offensive scheme, the conditioning, or just bad luck. So far this year ND has lost key positions and so far this year the backups have stepped up. I don't think anyone is complaining about the running game with CJ and the defensive line has played adequately. Lets see how the QB position turns out before we cut off our nose to spite or face.

I've been following ND since right before Ara was hired. BK reminds me so much of Ara in how he goes about things. BK has moved kids around to try and get the best players on the field at the same time. Ara did this on a regular basis. Ara really cared about his kids and I think BK does as well.

 

[phgreek]

I have no clue what Longo and Co. utilize as there base principles but there are ways to strengthen and thicken tendons and ligaments via the strength training process.

Louie Simmons talks about this in great lengths.

Increasing Explosive Strength and Reactive Method through Plyometrics

Getting Rolled up happens, but i'm starting to get the vibe that either are guys are built out of glass or our Strength Staff is clueless.

fair nuff...maybe there is more to be done there

 

[NDinL.A.]

And no one in their right mind would compare Bama's schedule to OSU... or ND's for that fact. The argument was whether ND's schedule was too tough and if that's why ND isn't successful or the reason they seem to have injuries. I don't think that's the case. One even posted Bama's schedule comparable to OSU's. Pretty amazing. I have posted what I think are the underlying reasons for the lack of success Kelly has had the last couple of years. And scheduling isn't one of them.

For the record, just because one has plenty of four and five star players, that doesn't make one a good or great team (see A&M last season). Va, who I have always liked as a school and football team, just isn't there yet. And, plenty on this site have aspirations of ND being a playoff team pre the MZ injury, expected to beat Va easily. Me included. Scheduling is not the issue. Freak injuries, transfers, and suspensions have left the Irish in a difficult spot. Outside of those things, I think ND has a solid year last year and a better year this year.

1. Name the 4 and 5 stars on The Citadel or Western Carolina or whatever POS school the SEC schedules before a big game. Go.

Of course, the answer is zero. They don't even get 3 stars. Getting tackled by or chasing after a 5 star athlete is WAY different than doing it against a 2 star. DIFFERENT WORLDS. So the fact that the team may not be good is irrelevant on the wear and tear on a body. And that's only the beginning.

2. I replied to this quote, by you, when you responded to someone saying ND doesn't get automatic byes like you guys do:

Sure ND does. The Virginia game before Ga Tech should have been a bye week. The Temple game before Pitt as well. The two games before Stanford as well.

It boggles my mind that you can compare Virginia to Coastal Carolina or Troy. Absolutely astonishing for anyone who follows college football closely to say that. Shit, you could argue that Virginia is closer to Alabama than Troy (3-9 in the Sunbelt, lost 66-0 to Georgia!) is to Virginia. To say Virginia is a bye, when Virginia beat BYU last year and hung tough and/or almost beat several quality bowl teams including a playoff team in the same sense that Western Carolina is a bye is a complete joke. You should be better than that.

3. All the other stuff you're talking about, I didn't respond to. Only your 'bye' comment.