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[condoms SUCk]

The Middle East is a hot mess we all know that, but the answer does not reside with permanent or open ended military presence, nor would endless international diplomacy resolve the issues. This internal and the answer exist within the people on the region. The Middle East will have to go through their own cultural “Renaissance” before things settle down, and that can only be done from the inside out.
I say let them fight it out, keep out eye on the situation and hammer any area that looks like it may be a terrorist training camp and pray that one day they have their own Great Awakening.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I was never much of an isolationist, but I'm becoming more and more of one. I understand it isn't this simple, but my inclination is to say let them kill each other if that is what they want, or let someone else deal with it. It isn't fair to our young men and women to keep sticking them into these hornets nests because these savages can't just live in peace.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

Paul Pillar at The National Interest just published an article titled "ISIS Challenge in Iraq: Let the Neighbors Lead":

Whiskey, this is the best article I've seen on the subject anywhere and it's exactly on point. The fact is in Syria, we're facing a choice of a poor man's Saddam with Assad (along with his allies in Iran and Hezbollah) or the poor man's Taliban. With these kind of options, you go with Saddam-lite every time. At least you can negotiate with brutal authoritarian rulers, religious zelots not so much.

What's going on in Iraq is an extension of what's going on Syria combined with legitimate political grievances among Sunnis, although no Sunni militant group could ever be an existential crisis to the Iraqi government. But as long as the ISIS is getting support from around the Gulf they're not going away.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

The Middle East is a hot mess we all know that, but the answer does not reside with permanent or open ended military presence, nor would endless international diplomacy resolve the issues. This internal and the answer exist within the people on the region. The Middle East will have to go through their own cultural “Renaissance” before things settle down, and that can only be done from the inside out.
I say let them fight it out, keep out eye on the situation and hammer any area that looks like it may be a terrorist training camp and pray that one day they have their own Great Awakening.

Iran was a democratic country until the British/CIA organized a coup to install the Shah to further western interests. Just sayin.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Iran was a democratic country until the British/CIA organized a coup to install the Shah to further western interests. Just sayin.

Just like Iraq was a stable autocracy before we invaded on trumped-up evidence of WMDs. Many of the loudest advocates for the Iraq War, who somehow still have jobs, are the same ones now claiming that the US must act to stop ISIS.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Just like Iraq was a stable autocracy before we invaded on trumped-up evidence of WMDs. Many of the loudest advocates for the Iraq War, who somehow still have jobs, are the same ones now claiming that the US must act to stop ISIS.

^EXACTLY

 

[ozzman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlKCZbce4UU ( i can't get it to embed for some reason)


These are some bad dudes. They got kicked out of Al Qaeda because they wouldn't fall in line and do what they were told.

How long will it be until they get a Free Syrian Army helicopter pilot to fly the blackhawks they got from Mosul like the above tank? There are all kinds of pictures of them trucking the stolen humvees back to Syria. Who knows how many small arms and ammo they were able to get.

It's so sad that less than 800 ISIS members stormed the base and 30,000 Iraqi army (trained and equipped by US) just turned and ran. With those kind of numbers, at least take shots.

I was all for Iran/Hezbollah/Assad Regime fight the Sunnis for the civil war in Syria without US intervention. I think we should bleed Iran and let them handle this situation. Eventually, the only solution that works is a redrawing of the map to separate the Sunni/Shia. The Kurds are playing this perfectly to try to get Kurdistan; they are sitting idly by and letting Maliki completely screw over the Sunnis to let the civil war begin.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

It's so sad that less than 800 ISIS members stormed the base and 30,000 Iraqi army (trained and equipped by US) just turned and ran. With those kind of numbers, at least take shots.

From what I've read, motivation seems to be more of an issue than competence. Why risk your life fighting for someone like Maliki?

 

[ozzman]

From what I've read, motivation seems to be more of an issue than competence. Why risk your life fighting for someone like Maliki?

Absolutely they're capable. We left them fully able to delay the inevitable civil war as long as possible to give democracy a chance to get a foothold.

 

[Redbar]

From what I've read, motivation seems to be more of an issue than competence. Why risk your life fighting for someone like Maliki?

One would think that the fact that ISIS purportedly killed as many as 1800 captured Shia combatants by lining them up and shooting them in the back would be enough motivation. Or were they given the option to lay down their arms at some point without repercussion?

 

[irish1958]

One would think that the fact that ISIS purportedly killed as many as 1800 captured Shia combatants by lining them up and shooting them in the back would be enough motivation. Or were they given the option to lay down their arms at some point without repercussion?

Current report was that they made the captured Iraqi soldiers swear allegiance to isis and when they did, they killed them (NBC news broadcast).

 

[Redbar]

Current report was that they made the captured Iraqi soldiers swear allegiance to isis and when they did, they killed them (NBC news broadcast).

That is unfortunate, but I am with you on this one, we never should have gotten militarily involved in the first place. There is IMO nothing good that will come to us or to them by our renewed or continuous presence. They have to sort this out on their own.

 

[AvesEvo]

Has anyone involved in the conflict asked the United States for help?

 

[BobD]

Has anyone involved in the conflict asked the United States for help?

It's been reported that Iraq is begging us to help.

 

[JTLA]

The problem, as I see it, is that post WWII, Americans have an idea of war that is historically nonexistent.

War consists of dedicating all of your cultural, social, economic, and military resources to destroying your enemy. Total annihilation. Rape. Pillage. Burn. Kill. Do this until the devastation leaves no choice but total and absolute surrender... Surrender of every value I registered above.

Peace can and will grow out of this circumstance.

Generally speaking I do not advocate for war. The only terms I find war acceptable is when the essence of your cultural, social, and economic existence is being threatened.

I also do not advocate using military resources as some type of half step measure. I believe this is why we are so confused on this issue for the last 70 years. Air strikes and police state peace making is fruitless and I would argue only sows the seeds of future retaliation.

The frustration is so very difficult for us to understand because for the first time in human history Americans have the resources to annihilate all our enemies many times over. What we lack is the will to do this. Thank God we lack this.

I'll say it like this. Use economic and political sanctions as well as olive branches and incentives to encourage stability and prosperity in the region. If and when the day comes that the security of Israel or Indianapolis is truly threatened. And I mean threatened with an annihilating type of weapon. Then you respond with your own version of justice and settle the matter.

We never should have been there in the first place. I regret that the instability we caused will result in an even greater loss of human lives, but again, the half measured precision style police state action only repeats and deepens the damage. We do not have and should not have the will to do anything more. What we need is to set aside ego and let them settle things for themselves.

 

[Redbar]

The problem, as I see it, is that post WWII, Americans have an idea of war that is historically nonexistent.

War consists of dedicating all of your cultural, social, economic, and military resources to destroying your enemy. Total annihilation. Rape. Pillage. Burn. Kill. Do this until the devastation leaves no choice but total and absolute surrender... Surrender of every value I registered above.

Peace can and will grow out of this circumstance.

Generally speaking I do not advocate for war. The only terms I find war acceptable is when the essence of your cultural, social, and economic existence is being threatened.

I also do not advocate using military resources as some type of half step measure. I believe this is why we are so confused on this issue for the last 70 years. Air strikes and police state peace making is fruitless and I would argue only sows the seeds of future retaliation.

The frustration is so very difficult for us to understand because for the first time in human history Americans have the resources to annihilate all our enemies many times over. What we lack is the will to do this. Thank God we lack this.

I'll say it like this. Use economic and political sanctions as well as olive branches and incentives to encourage stability and prosperity in the region. If and when the day comes that the security of Israel or Indianapolis is truly threatened. And I mean threatened with an annihilating type of weapon. Then you respond with your own version of justice and settle the matter.

We never should have been there in the first place. I regret that the instability we caused will result in an even greater loss of human lives, but again, the half measured precision style police state action only repeats and deepens the damage. We do not have and should not have the will to do anything more. What we need is to set aside ego and let them settle things for themselves.

Wow. I have been thinking and advocating for this type of position among my friends and associates for a very long time. Never could I have put it this concisely or eloquently. I agree we don't have the will to necessarily bring down this type of annihilation, but I think there is another component. I have become more cynical as time has passed and I wonder if these "half measured actions that only repeat and deepen the damage" are exactly what the people who really make the decisions are after, and I am talking about the banks and contractors who profit in war and see it as a stimulus package or even better a constant revenue stream. I mean long periods of peace and stability that would eventually make people see the viability and benefits to diplomacy, born out of WWII style annihilation can't be nearly as profitable as constant wars that never end and never really resolve the root causes, but leave people in a constant state of fear, distrust, and conflict. I mean if you follow the money which one leads to constantly inflating defense and black budgets? Who can convince me that the political process is not already or at least just on the brink of being open to the highest bidder?

 

[Irish YJ]

All I'd support right now is lots of pressure on the region to police itself, pressure on the larger international community to pressure the region, and if intervention is needed, send a thousand drones and let our young men play video games from afar with perhaps a sprinkling of special forces.

 

[Cackalacky]

Someone above mentioned that these people need to go through their own cultural rennaisance and I agree. A group of people cannot have a democracy thrust upon them particularly when the core principles are at odds with rigid dogma. I am pessimistic that any form of democracy will be stable in the Middle East.

 

[irish1958]

Wow. I have been thinking and advocating for this type of position among my friends and associates for a very long time. Never could I have put it this concisely or eloquently. I agree we don't have the will to necessarily bring down this type of annihilation, but I think there is another component. I have become more cynical as time has passed and I wonder if these "half measured actions that only repeat and deepen the damage" are exactly what the people who really make the decisions are after, and I am talking about the banks and contractors who profit in war and see it as a stimulus package or even better a constant revenue stream. I mean long periods of peace and stability that would eventually make people see the viability and benefits to diplomacy, born out of WWII style annihilation can't be nearly as profitable as constant wars that never end and never really resolve the root causes, but leave people in a constant state of fear, distrust, and conflict. I mean if you follow the money which one leads to constantly inflating defense and black budgets? Who can convince me that the political process is not already or at least just on the brink of being open to the highest bidder?

First advocated by George Washington and later reiterated by Dwight Eisenhower. Unfortunately we are slow learners.

 

[ozzman]

All I'd support right now is lots of pressure on the region to police itself, pressure on the larger international community to pressure the region, and if intervention is needed, send a thousand drones and let our young men play video games from afar with perhaps a sprinkling of special forces.

Make 10 enemies for every 1 killed. Drone wars are lazy and stupid. When I was in Afghanistan in 2006, they were used as support to our missions, not the main assault weapon. That is how they should be used, as an ISR asset that can attack only when completely certain or necessary.

Without more people on the ground, how do you propose we target these people? We've made a complete mess of Yemen.

 

[dublinirish]

Make 10 enemies for every 1 killed. Drone wars are lazy and stupid. When I was in Afghanistan in 2006, they were used as support to our missions, not the main assault weapon. That is how they should be used, as an ISR asset that can attack only when completely certain or necessary.

Without more people on the ground, how do you propose we target these people? We've made a complete mess of Yemen.

Informers. That's how they will do it in Iraq. Not saying these guys always pick out the right targets but thats how its done.

 

[ozzman]

Informers. That's how they will do it in Iraq. Not saying these guys always pick out the right targets but thats how its done.

Like the guy I interrogated because we picked him based on an informer that turned out to be bad. If we had taken the informers word and dropped a bomb on the guy, a village leader would be dead and the village would be without the electricity and satellite tv that he provided from his home.

 

[Redbar]

These Islamist SOB's killed 2000 citizens over the weekend. John Kerry says climate change is the biggest global threat. This...is our leadership.

Politics, politics, politicking... Could it go deeper than that? Could it be that all of these guys regardless of party affiliation are beholden to the money interest behind them? Could politics have actually been relegated to a drama or soap opera by big money interests to get peoples attention divided and focused on the personality or the team or the ideology anything but the money, and the other ley lines of power, control, and subjugation?

 

[NDRock]

Politics, politics, politicking... Could it go deeper than that? Could it be that all of these guys regardless of party affiliation are beholden to the money interest behind them? Could politics have actually been relegated to a drama or soap opera by big money interests to get peoples attention divided and focused on the personality or the team or the ideology anything but the money, and the other ley lines of power, control, and subjugation?

Bingo, I really don't know how anyone can watch our leadership on both sides of the aisle and conclude that there is any real difference between the two parties (what they do, not what they run on).

 

[RDU Irish]

John Bolton on "The Independents" last night got pissed almost instantly by them questioning him and had a pretty worthless yelling match overall. Goes to show the entrenched Rs aren't really interested in being questioned about their actions or foresight. I actually like Bolton but his inability to try to engage middle ground commentators is very unnerving. Makes you wonder how any opposing council would have been received in the real War room.

Second rate show, I know. But at least there is a fresh perspective and commentary being offered. Still not sure if Bolton was more annoyed by being questioned by youth or libertarians?

 

[Irish YJ]

Make 10 enemies for every 1 killed. Drone wars are lazy and stupid. When I was in Afghanistan in 2006, they were used as support to our missions, not the main assault weapon. That is how they should be used, as an ISR asset that can attack only when completely certain or necessary.

Without more people on the ground, how do you propose we target these people? We've made a complete mess of Yemen.

Drone's in support of Iraq's forces...... not on their own. Our special forces engage only on high value targets.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Has anyone involved in the conflict asked the United States for help?

Does it matter? Our "client" states in the Middle East are constantly badgering us to intervene militarily where there are no vital American interests at stake. This is just the most recent example of that.

Once upon a time our State Department was staffed by expert diplomats, instead of bungling liberal interventionists like Victoria Nuland. We need to convince Iran, Saudia Arabia and Turkey that the extremism and instability ISIS represents are threats to all of them, so they need to work together to police their own fucking neighborhood.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Moving the climate change discussion to the "Just out of Curiosity?" thread, since that's where most of IE's debates on this subject have taken place.

 

[RDU Irish]

Thanks Whiskey. To bring that discussion back on topic, I can get on board the concept of a more isolationist policy based on having bigger fish to fry. Which fish need to be first fried is a completely different conversation.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I want to get out of the fish frying business, and this thread.