Another Shooting

Greenore

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Ok, but when you made the second headline it wasn't remotely in the same league. Again, what Reuters reported was correct. What was reckless about it? What would you have liked them to say?

Just to illustrate, I will revive a comment made to the Reuters twitter thread:

"Former German Artist Kills 11 Million People"

Factual? Yes. Misleading? Yes.

That's probably the best I can do.

Cheers and Go Irish!!
 

TorontoGold

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I don't like Alexa (she's eavesdropping), but there was a pretty big crime bill that got passed in 1994.
She's real piece of work sometimes. The assault rifle ban that was passed by Slick in 94. I didn't realize as 90's kids how good we had it. (You buy that old bunker in ND from awhile back? Every so often I think back to that and how sick it would be to retrofit it into a livable space. If need a co-owner shoot me a dm lmao.)

Just to illustrate, I will revive a comment made to the Reuters twitter thread:

"Former German Artist Kills 11 Million People"

Factual? Yes. Misleading? Yes.

That's probably the best I can do.

Cheers and Go Irish!!

Just to confirm, you think that statement is comparable to Reuters calling the shooter a former student? What would have been the better more neutral title?
 

Cackalacky2.0

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I don't think there is any issue whatsoever with the Reuters headline. The person was a former student who did shoot up a Christian school. If I was a parent I would want people to know it was a Christian school that came under attack. I don't know the exact split, but it seems like a Christian school being shot up is more rare.

To your second "headline" the first part is correct even though it is a bit inflammatory. The second half is just inserting your personal bias as I'm not sure you actually believe that anyone with sympathy's to the trans community is actually calling for more violence.

Nobody is giving sympathies to the shooter and make them the victim?
There have been a total of 4 trans/non-binary school shooters. 4. If you look at MAGA social media today it looks like they are now using yesterdays events to go even harder after trans people now. Which is totally expected. They need a new whipping dog.
 

TorontoGold

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See post #2221.

If you don't get it, you don't get it. FTR, I think you do.

Cheers and Go Irish!!
How are they similar though? I don't see how calling Hitler an artist is remotely in the same league as a trans person who shot up the school as a "former student". For all the talk about how many don't care about someones gender we sure are going to great lengths to make sure that everyone knows the gender. Interesting.

(FTR - The animal should have been shot until they weren't recognizable, just to make it clear my feelings on this person)
 

NorthDakota

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She's real piece of work sometimes. The assault rifle ban that was passed by Slick in 94. I didn't realize as 90's kids how good we had it. (You buy that old bunker in ND from awhile back? Every so often I think back to that and how sick it would be to retrofit it into a livable space. If need a co-owner shoot me a dm lmao.)



Just to confirm, you think that statement is comparable to Reuters calling the shooter a former student? What would have been the better more neutral title?
I don't think the "ban" did what its supporters believed it did. It didn't stop Columbine. The ban allowed for mini 14's to be bought. Gun is functionally the same as an AR-15. Regardless, in light of recent case law, it seems unlikely a ban would be held as constitutional anyway.

(I will be purchasing a bunker if/when they put a new bloc of them up for sale, the only one I see now for sale is $800k, they did some renovations on it, but I think I'd rather buy a an untouched one and retrofit it to my taste). -> it is 38 acres, 1.5 hours from Winnipeg, like 15K sq. feet of structure. Tbh, not a bad deal at all lmaooo
 

ab2cmiller

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"Alexa, what happened in 1994"
The drop in murder rates in your graph had very little to do with an assault weapons ban. The drop coincided with an overall drop in crime in general. There are tons of theories as to why their was a significant drop in crime during the 90's. In all likelihood the explanation is a combination of a lot of different factors A fairly interesting article that quickly touches on 10 factors is linked below. Read some articles that touched on the fact that only a very small percentage of murders were from assault weapons prior to the ban.


The most likely reason for the drop in suicide rates during that time was likely do the increased popularity of anti-depressants around that time.

If you want to argue that the assault weapons ban had an effect on mass shootings, I can buy that. But it has nothing to do with your graph that you are trying to present.
 

Greenore

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How are they similar though? I don't see how calling Hitler an artist is remotely in the same league as a trans person who shot up the school as a "former student". For all the talk about how many don't care about someones gender we sure are going to great lengths to make sure that everyone knows the gender. Interesting.

(FTR - The animal should have been shot until they weren't recognizable, just to make it clear my feelings on this person)

I hope you weren't intending to put words in my mouth. My concerns have NOTHING to do with gender or sexual orientation.

Cheers and Go Irish.
 

GoIrish41

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Nobody mentioned staying calm and doing nothing. I said getting all worked up and screaming & crying weren't effective, and to instead deal with the problem intelligently. As for Cack's stats, I don't read most of the nonsense he posts for the same reason I don't read The National Enquirer, People Magazine, or Tiger Beat.

Do you really think that guns are the underlying problem? Let me show you why they aren't. Let's do a thought experiment. Let's put 100 fully loaded guns in a room. What happens? Do any of them go off and do any damage? No. OK, I'll be more fair and realistic. Let's put fully loaded guns in the hands of 100 people at a shooting range. How many murders occur? None. Tens of thousands of shooters go to gun ranges every day and I can't recall the last time I heard of an intentional shooting at one. How about 100 police officers at the station house of a large PD? Happens hundreds of times per day across the country and even with all those guns, a shooting by officers in a crowded, highly armed police station is extremely rare to nonexistent. What about at a military base. Hundreds, maybe even thousands, of armed servicemen carrying loaded guns, yet gun violence is extremely rare on military bases. Now, you still want to claim the problem is the guns and not the behavior of people?

I want to add an additional thought to the above to further illustrate my point. Let's take 100 people with behavior, impulse control, character, and anger issues and put them together - inmates in a prison - without any guns. You think we get much violence... stabbings, rapes, murders, assaults, and etc.? Of course we do, on a daily basis. Even without guns, people with those traits will commit murder and assault on the regular. Even armed to the teeth, normal, law-abiding citizens won't. The bad behavior and crime aren't the fault of the guns. They're not the underlying issue. Behavior is.

Guns are no more the underlying problem with mass shootings than penises are with rape or cars with drunk driving accidents. It's behavior and values and a disconnect from normality in disturbed people. A fragmented society, the erosion of social norms, the erosion of personal responsibility, a coarsening of society and reduction in the respect we accord each other and civility with which we treat each other, and social media's driving of anger and isolation and encouragement of radical behavior all contribute to the problem. Now, do you want to solve the problem, or do you want to just keep parroting the party line about guns? Do you want to actually address the real underlying problem or not?
So what is your solution? What practical steps (not vagaries) do you take to combat gun violence? I know what you think the problem isn’t. How do we fix a “fragmented society,” “erosion of social norms,” “ mental health issues” without trampling people’s rights? What are your practical solutions to children being gunned down in schools, people being slaughtered in malls, churches, at concerts?

The GOP has just rejected a budget proposal that would have tripled the resources for the substance abuse and behavioral health administration, an agency designed to lead public health and service delivery efforts that promote mental health, prevent substance misuse, and provide treatments and supports to foster recovery. If mental health is the problem, why reject funds that would help? Seems like a practical solution to the problem you have identified. It’s almost like you don’t want to help at all, but rather condemn people who have actual practical solutions.

Restrictions on guns is the only practical solution, despite your flawed logic. For the same reason we don’t let children run with scissors, or allow people to smoke at gas pumps, we must remove the danger. It sounds like nothing but platitudes to push blame onto behavioral health and then decline to fund the remedy, to suggest that it is a societal issue and then refuse to see the elephant lumbering through every room. Respect, as has always been the case, is earned. If you don’t want people telling you your ideas are arcane, unproductive and dumb, come up with better ideas. But droning on about how society is the problem for society’s ills and then actively rejecting solutions that would help is nauseating. Instead of incessantly lecturing about how you are right when, un-restricted, the problem grows every year admit that your “solutions” are not solutions at all, but more of the same. It is tiresome and seems a lot like you’d rather have gun rights than safe classrooms. And that is not an opinion that merits respect.
 
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TorontoGold

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I don't think the "ban" did what its supporters believed it did. It didn't stop Columbine. The ban allowed for mini 14's to be bought. Gun is functionally the same as an AR-15. Regardless, in light of recent case law, it seems unlikely a ban would be held as constitutional anyway.

(I will be purchasing a bunker if/when they put a new bloc of them up for sale, the only one I see now for sale is $800k, they did some renovations on it, but I think I'd rather buy a an untouched one and retrofit it to my taste). -> it is 38 acres, 1.5 hours from Winnipeg, like 15K sq. feet of structure. Tbh, not a bad deal at all lmaooo
Oh I don't think a ban would even see the light of day. Just an interesting data point along with many of what Miller noted in his post.

(Stay as far away from Winnipeg as you can.)
The drop in murder rates in your graph had very little to do with an assault weapons ban. The drop coincided with an overall drop in crime in general. There are tons of theories as to why their was a significant drop in crime during the 90's. In all likelihood the explanation is a combination of a lot of different factors A fairly interesting article that quickly touches on 10 factors is linked below. Read some articles that touched on the fact that only a very small percentage of murders were from assault weapons prior to the ban.


The most likely reason for the drop in suicide rates during that time was likely do the increased popularity of anti-depressants around that time.

If you want to argue that the assault weapons ban had an effect on mass shootings, I can buy that. But it has nothing to do with your graph that you are trying to present.

Those are all certainly more impactful than a ban, economic anxiety is the main contributor to anything. Working on that will always be better than getting rid of guns or making schools "more hardened".

Just that having assault weapons available to people that are living in a time when the wealth gap is widening, and the corporate profits are privatized by the corporate loses are socialized is not a recipe for success.

I hope you weren't intending to put words in my mouth. My concerns have NOTHING to do with gender or sexual orientation.

Cheers and Go Irish.
Ok, so what are your concerns? I'm still unsure why you have an issue with the Reuters title, can you say what the issue is? I don't want to assume intentions. Why is the Hitler comparison relevant?
 

Blazers46

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The drop in murder rates in your graph had very little to do with an assault weapons ban. The drop coincided with an overall drop in crime in general. There are tons of theories as to why their was a significant drop in crime during the 90's. In all likelihood the explanation is a combination of a lot of different factors A fairly interesting article that quickly touches on 10 factors is linked below. Read some articles that touched on the fact that only a very small percentage of murders were from assault weapons prior to the ban.

The most likely reason for the drop in suicide rates during that time was likely do the increased popularity of anti-depressants around that time.

If you want to argue that the assault weapons ban had an effect on mass shootings, I can buy that. But it has nothing to do with your graph that you are trying to present.
The drop in murder rates in your graph had very little to do with an assault weapons ban. The drop coincided with an overall drop in crime in general. There are tons of theories as to why their was a significant drop in crime during the 90's. In all likelihood the explanation is a combination of a lot of different factors A fairly interesting article that quickly touches on 10 factors is linked below. Read some articles that touched on the fact that only a very small percentage of murders were from assault weapons prior to the ban.


The most likely reason for the drop in suicide rates during that time was likely do the increased popularity of anti-depressants around that time.

If you want to argue that the assault weapons ban had an effect on mass shootings, I can buy that. But it has nothing to do with your graph that you are trying to present.
14063E09-F6ED-4368-A626-D754931C34E0.jpeg
This graph would probably be a better graph to show the affects of the 1994 assault weapons ban. Shows little to none. Torontos attempt to show the assault weapons ban in 1994 drastically improved “murder rates” ignores assault weapons only account for 3% of murders and also ignores the discussion is mass shootings, in particular school shootings.
 

ab2cmiller

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This graph would probably be a better graph to show the affects of the 1994 assault weapons ban. Shows little to none. Torontos attempt to show the assault weapons ban in 1994 drastically improved “murder rates” ignores assault weapons only account for 3% of murders and also ignores the discussion is mass shootings, in particular school shootings.
But it does seem to show that from 1994 to 2004 (the time period of the assault rifle ban) likely did have some impact. Just like any other issue, there are lots of factors that probably were factors that contributed. I do believe that an assault rifle ban would likely reduce the number of school shootings.

I know the counter argument that most school shooters would simply use another type of weapon has a lot of validity. But I think there is a segment of people that are drawn to fascinations in their head of "going out in a blaze of glory" using an assault type of rifle.
 

Bishop2b5

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So what is your solution? What practical steps (not vagaries) do you take to combat gun violence? I know what you think the problem isn’t. How do we fix a “fragmented society,” “erosion of social norms,” “ mental health issues” without trampling people’s rights? What are your practical solutions to children being gunned down in schools, people being slaughtered in malls, churches, at concerts?

The GOP has just rejected a budget proposal that would have tripled the resources for the substance abuse and behavioral health administration, an agency designed to lead public health and service delivery efforts that promote mental health, prevent substance misuse, and provide treatments and supports to foster recovery. If mental health is the problem, why reject funds that would help? Seems like a practical solution to the problem you have identified. It’s almost like you don’t want to help at all, but rather condemn people who have actual practical solutions.

Restrictions on guns is the only practical solution, despite your flawed logic. For the same reason we don’t let children run with scissors, or allow people to smoke at gas pumps, we must remove the danger. It sounds like nothing but platitudes to push blame onto behavioral health and then decline to fund the remedy, to suggest that it is a societal issue and then refuse to see the elephant lumbering through every room. Respect, as has always been the case, is earned. If you don’t want people telling you your ideas are arcane, unproductive and dumb, come up with better ideas. But droning on about how society is the problem for society’s ills and then actively rejecting solutions that would help is nauseating. Instead of incessantly lecturing about how you are right when, un-restricted, the problem grows every year admit that your “solutions” are not solutions at all, but more of the same. It is tiresome and seems a lot like you’d rather have gun rights than safe classrooms. And that is not an opinion that merits respect.
I'm at work with limited time to discuss, but one good starting point is something I mentioned in another thread a couple of months ago. Mental health/personality screening starting at an early age. When I was a kid, and they still do some of this now, their were regular screenings in school for hearing, vision, and dental issues. It wouldn't be prohibitively expensive or difficult to screen kids using something like an MMPI or similar test. Do it 3-4 times in a kid's 12 years of school and identify kids with issues, then get them help. It's a LOT easier and cost effective to help them at 7 or 13 than to deal with the consequences of their bad behavior a decade or two later.

I'm all for screening and helping. I'm not against effective gun laws. I'm all for them. The problem is that most of the gun laws we have now don't work and most of the ones proposed will be no better.
 

Blazers46

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But it does seem to show that from 1994 to 2004 (the time period of the assault rifle ban) likely did have some impact. Just like any other issue, there are lots of factors that probably were factors that contributed. I do believe that an assault rifle ban would likely reduce the number of school shootings.

I know the counter argument that most school shooters would simply use another type of weapon has a lot of validity. But I think there is a segment of people that are drawn to fascinations in their head of "going out in a blaze of glory" using an assault type of rifle.
I don’t see anything from the graph that would suggest it’s impact. Did it decrease from ‘94 to ‘95? Sure there are many factors at play like others have suggested and in that time period before and after 93 abs 94 are the outliers. Just like in 2005 the numbers did not shoot back up. We also have to take into account the rise in mental health issues as the rise of social media began, Facebook founded in 2004 and then exploding yeas later but only after our brief time with MySpace.

In most planned school shootings a hand gun was brought with the assault weapon.
 

DomerInHappyValley

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I don’t see anything from the graph that would suggest it’s impact. Did it decrease from ‘94 to ‘95? Sure there are many factors at play like others have suggested and in that time period before and after 93 abs 94 are the outliers. Just like in 2005 the numbers did not shoot back up. We also have to take into account the rise in mental health issues as the rise of social media began, Facebook founded in 2004 and then exploding yeas later but only after our brief time with MySpace.

In most planned school shootings a hand gun was brought with the assault weapon.
Would be interesting to see if there's a corelation between the dramatic jump in shootings in recent years vs. the dramatic rise in popularity in online gaming vs. just gaming.

Getting my ass kicked by a buddy in Super Tecmo Bowl or Madden while talking shit in the same room as each other does seem totally different than getting my ass kicked online by some dude half way across the world who I'll probably never build that type of relationship with.

Seems more isolated to me anyways.

Isolation and mental health issues obviously aren't a good thing.
 

ab2cmiller

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I don’t see anything from the graph that would suggest it’s impact. Did it decrease from ‘94 to ‘95? Sure there are many factors at play like others have suggested and in that time period before and after 93 abs 94 are the outliers. Just like in 2005 the numbers did not shoot back up. We also have to take into account the rise in mental health issues as the rise of social media began, Facebook founded in 2004 and then exploding yeas later but only after our brief time with MySpace.

In most planned school shootings a hand gun was brought with the assault weapon.
I was looking at the average over that time period compared to the following 10 year period. The average was definitely down during the assault weapons ban.

I just now looked at your chart again and compared it to the suicide line on Toronto’s chart. The rise in shootings in the years after 2004 speaks mostly to the mental health as it rises in correlation to the suicide rate. It’s less about the sunseting of the ban, although it could play some part.

Ultimately we have school shootings because of mental health issues. How many would be prevented by an assault weapons ban or tougher background checks is anyones guess.
 

GATTACA!

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Would be interesting to see if there's a corelation between the dramatic jump in shootings in recent years vs. the dramatic rise in popularity in online gaming vs. just gaming.

Getting my ass kicked by a buddy in Super Tecmo Bowl or Madden while talking shit in the same room as each other does seem totally different than getting my ass kicked online by some dude half way across the world who I'll probably never build that type of relationship with.

Seems more isolated to me anyways.

Isolation and mental health issues obviously aren't a good thing.
What do you consider recent years? Things are certainly no worse today than what was being said in Halo 2 or Modern Warfare lobbies when I was younger.
 

NorthDakota

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Would be interesting to see if there's a corelation between the dramatic jump in shootings in recent years vs. the dramatic rise in popularity in online gaming vs. just gaming.

Getting my ass kicked by a buddy in Super Tecmo Bowl or Madden while talking shit in the same room as each other does seem totally different than getting my ass kicked online by some dude half way across the world who I'll probably never build that type of relationship with.

Seems more isolated to me anyways.

Isolation and mental health issues obviously aren't a good thing.

What do you consider recent years? Things are certainly no worse today than what was being said in Halo 2 or Modern Warfare lobbies when I was younger.
I dont think anything can be more toxic than counterstrike:source.
 

NorthDakota

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What's the difference in damage from an AR-15 and a similar caliber deer rifle?
In this case, it's not even clear from anything I've seen that an AR-15 was used to shoot anyone. In the video of the girl walking in the halls, she's holding a 9mm pistol carbine it looks like? The same gun is seen on the body camera footage. So it seems counterintuitive that she would walk the halls using the carbine, engaging the police (it looks like?) with the carbine, only to use an AR-15 when shooting the staff/kids.
 

Cackalacky2.0

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Would be interesting to see if there's a corelation between the dramatic jump in shootings in recent years vs. the dramatic rise in popularity in online gaming vs. just gaming.

Getting my ass kicked by a buddy in Super Tecmo Bowl or Madden while talking shit in the same room as each other does seem totally different than getting my ass kicked online by some dude half way across the world who I'll probably never build that type of relationship with.

Seems more isolated to me anyways.

Isolation and mental health issues obviously aren't a good thing.
There is no correlation btw video games and violent shooting events. No other country comes close to us with mass ahootings and they are mostly less religious and have the same or worse video games.
 

ab2cmiller

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Who's "they", Bruv?
LOL, don't take offense. Just because he was responding to you doesn't mean that my comment was directed at you. I have no clue where you stand on the issue. It was directed at anyone that wants to take away people's guns.
 

Jiggafini19Deux

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LOL, don't take offense. Just because he was responding to you doesn't mean that my comment was directed at you. I have no clue where you stand on the issue. It was directed at anyone that wants to take away people's guns.
I'm not offended. Was only curious.
 
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