Another Shooting

NorthDakota

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I'm not well read on case law regarding gun control, waiting periods, etc.

Seems like a lot of these shootings could have been prevented if adults did their jobs. We have a lot of laws restricting and limiting gun possession. I'm sure they can tinker a bit on the margin but I suspect enforcement of laws on the books would pay some dividend. Also might help if the police don't just wait outside while a crazy person shoots a bunch of kids.

Re: NRA boogeyman... they are a weak organization at this point. If they disappeared tomorrow, nobody would notice in elections. Might just notice fewer hunter/gun safety classes.

The biggest tool in the pro-gun toolbox is the plain reading of 2A.
 

Straussy

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Kalief Browder was not necessarily a bail problem but taking 3+ years to have a trial about a stolen backpack. The family actually posted bail but found out he had a probation hold. After that it was the courts delaying that held everything up. That was a NY justice system problem.
Fair, that was a whole series of fuckups throughout the entire process, not specifically a bail issue. That's what I get for trying to put up a quick response lol
 

Blazers46

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Fair, that was a whole series of fuckups throughout the entire process, not specifically a bail issue. That's what I get for trying to put up a quick response lol
I dont want to get too much off topic but bail reform has been a major fuck up. Since I own a retail store and buy stuff from the public like a pawn shop I am in a GroupMe group with police and loss prevention from big box like Target, WalMart, Best Buy, Old Navy..... There are guys that steal every single day... IF they get caught they are let out the next day. We all know them by name and know they are going to steal before they even come in. Some guys have 20+ pending cases and are still out and still caught and released.
 

Blazers46

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Amendment VI​

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

This one has been an abomination for a long time. Financially devastating to need to engage our legal system and the time it takes to get to trial is absurd.
Even with the Borwder case the poor guy was arrested in May but did not have initial hearing until like December or something like that...then all the delays... they should have made that dude a gazillionaire and gave him key to the city after that mess.
 

Straussy

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Just picking you brain here. Do you think these mass shootings (either school or other) is a gun problem or a society problem? Have guns changed so much that we need to fix guns and how to get them and what guns are available or or has society changed so much that we need to fix guns and how to get them or what guns are available? Or has society changed so much that we need to look at society?
I think it's all the above. Guns have physically changed a bit since Charles Whitman in as far as the proliferation of technologies, accessories, and the refinement of some guns (AR-style rifles, for example) to reduce recoil and improve accuracy. I don't think any of this is done with specific malicious intent, just as a natural evolution of businesses trying to innovate and put products to market. My impression is that these evolutions have made it easier for a shooter to do more damage more quickly, even with limited training or experience.

In my mind, the social perception of guns has also changed. I offer this as a gut feeling that 50-60 years ago, guns weren't objectified at the same level as they are today, nor were they taken as symbols of strength or manliness to the degree they are now. Yes, we've always had the Lone Ranger, or Dirty Harry, or Predator, but it feels as if we've turned a corner on how those guns are being seen. I also feel there's an element of showiness among some gun enthusiasts that may have been more restrained years ago. The gun-themed Christmas cards that have started to become popular seem like an outgrowth of this.

Societal changes have certainly been contributing factors, but they're hard to isolate. One of the bigger ones, in my mind, is that we've effectively normalized mass shootings. The shock of a Columbine for the most part just isn't there anymore. It's been 2 weeks since a bunch of 10-11 year olds were slowly killed in so brutal a manner they were identified by DNA or their shoes, and it seems like a lot of people are past it, whether through general march of time, busy lives, or possibly a sense of hopelessness. No one is out protesting in the streets, despite people being passionate about this issue. We can't seem to find the spark to compel a change.

I think this normalization is a part of what makes it easy for a shooter to move forward with their shooting - the absence of tremendous shock and consequences on a societal level communicates that what they are about to do is a normal thing. Maybe that's part of the reason that even among adults, we see mass shootings rather than more McVeigh-style bombings.

For all the good it offers, I feel the internet also contributes by allowing for the creation of communities where this violence is celebrated and at-risk people who might otherwise have just been a town's isolated loners instead find a place where they are encouraged toward violence by others who have no stake in the game.

Other social issues that are likely contributing factors on a personal or community level:
  • lack of access to coordinated mental health care
  • rise in single parent households
  • failures within the education system
  • perception that it's harder/impossible to achieve the "American Dream"
  • decreased social/economic mobility
More recent social effects are harder for me to judge, as I'm less familiar with research there and feel my own lived experienced isn't enough to have a tremendous grasp on what has changed over the years. Have we become more busy and stressed or has life always been like this? Do kids have it tougher nowadays with pervasive nature of social media making it tougher to escape difficult situations (bullying, etc.) or are we just seeing the same problems in a new media? Have we all become overwhelmed with so much information that we have to choose what we care about in a way we never had to before?

I don't think there's any one thing that has changed that we can change back to reduce gun violence and mass shootings. Investment at a community level is warranted, and we should certainly investigate and continue to try to remedy the social issues above. To do the best we can to stop this violence, we need to recognize that changes are needed at multiple levels. We need to make changes to who can access guns and when they can access them. We should examine the potential for restrictions on guns and their capacity. We should work to create cultures of growth and hope, and prioritize education and support networks for the at-risk and impoverished.
 

Irish#1

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I think it's all the above. Guns have physically changed a bit since Charles Whitman in as far as the proliferation of technologies, accessories, and the refinement of some guns (AR-style rifles, for example) to reduce recoil and improve accuracy. I don't think any of this is done with specific malicious intent, just as a natural evolution of businesses trying to innovate and put products to market. My impression is that these evolutions have made it easier for a shooter to do more damage more quickly, even with limited training or experience.

In my mind, the social perception of guns has also changed. I offer this as a gut feeling that 50-60 years ago, guns weren't objectified at the same level as they are today, nor were they taken as symbols of strength or manliness to the degree they are now. Yes, we've always had the Lone Ranger, or Dirty Harry, or Predator, but it feels as if we've turned a corner on how those guns are being seen. I also feel there's an element of showiness among some gun enthusiasts that may have been more restrained years ago. The gun-themed Christmas cards that have started to become popular seem like an outgrowth of this.

Societal changes have certainly been contributing factors, but they're hard to isolate. One of the bigger ones, in my mind, is that we've effectively normalized mass shootings. The shock of a Columbine for the most part just isn't there anymore. It's been 2 weeks since a bunch of 10-11 year olds were slowly killed in so brutal a manner they were identified by DNA or their shoes, and it seems like a lot of people are past it, whether through general march of time, busy lives, or possibly a sense of hopelessness. No one is out protesting in the streets, despite people being passionate about this issue. We can't seem to find the spark to compel a change.

I think this normalization is a part of what makes it easy for a shooter to move forward with their shooting - the absence of tremendous shock and consequences on a societal level communicates that what they are about to do is a normal thing. Maybe that's part of the reason that even among adults, we see mass shootings rather than more McVeigh-style bombings.

For all the good it offers, I feel the internet also contributes by allowing for the creation of communities where this violence is celebrated and at-risk people who might otherwise have just been a town's isolated loners instead find a place where they are encouraged toward violence by others who have no stake in the game.

Other social issues that are likely contributing factors on a personal or community level:
  • lack of access to coordinated mental health care
  • rise in single parent households
  • failures within the education system
  • perception that it's harder/impossible to achieve the "American Dream"
  • decreased social/economic mobility
More recent social effects are harder for me to judge, as I'm less familiar with research there and feel my own lived experienced isn't enough to have a tremendous grasp on what has changed over the years. Have we become more busy and stressed or has life always been like this? Do kids have it tougher nowadays with pervasive nature of social media making it tougher to escape difficult situations (bullying, etc.) or are we just seeing the same problems in a new media? Have we all become overwhelmed with so much information that we have to choose what we care about in a way we never had to before?

I don't think there's any one thing that has changed that we can change back to reduce gun violence and mass shootings. Investment at a community level is warranted, and we should certainly investigate and continue to try to remedy the social issues above. To do the best we can to stop this violence, we need to recognize that changes are needed at multiple levels. We need to make changes to who can access guns and when they can access them. We should examine the potential for restrictions on guns and their capacity. We should work to create cultures of growth and hope, and prioritize education and support networks for the at-risk and impoverished.
I don't agree that we have "effectively normalized mass shootings", but you make some good points.
 

RDU Irish

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If you want to move rights off of age 18 to age 21 then do them all. Can't vote, drink, gamble, porn, smoke, get drafted or buy a gun until age X - package deal.
 

Bishop2b5

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If you want to move rights off of age 18 to age 21 then do them all. Can't vote, drink, gamble, porn, smoke, get drafted or buy a gun until age X - package deal.
I'm very much in favor of making 21 the legal age for all of those things with an exception: if you're in the military, then you are legally an adult with all those rights when you enlist, even if you're only 18.
 

RDU Irish

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I'm very much in favor of making 21 the legal age for all of those things with an exception: if you're in the military, then you are legally an adult with all those rights when you enlist, even if you're only 18.
I'd support that. Completely indifferent if the legal age is 18 or 21 - just be consistent across the board.
 

NorthDakota

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I'm very much in favor of making 21 the legal age for all of those things with an exception: if you're in the military, then you are legally an adult with all those rights when you enlist, even if you're only 18.
I was thinking about that the other day. I'm curious on whether it is Constitutional. Equal Protection Clause requires impartial treatment. Can't have different laws for different groups generally.

I think the government would struggle to defend that in courts. In other words, what legitimate government objective is furthered in letting military personnel under 21 vote, smoke, drink, etc. while depriving their peers of those rights?
 

Blazers46

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I think it's all the above. Guns have physically changed a bit since Charles Whitman in as far as the proliferation of technologies, accessories, and the refinement of some guns (AR-style rifles, for example) to reduce recoil and improve accuracy. I don't think any of this is done with specific malicious intent, just as a natural evolution of businesses trying to innovate and put products to market. My impression is that these evolutions have made it easier for a shooter to do more damage more quickly, even with limited training or experience.

In my mind, the social perception of guns has also changed. I offer this as a gut feeling that 50-60 years ago, guns weren't objectified at the same level as they are today, nor were they taken as symbols of strength or manliness to the degree they are now. Yes, we've always had the Lone Ranger, or Dirty Harry, or Predator, but it feels as if we've turned a corner on how those guns are being seen. I also feel there's an element of showiness among some gun enthusiasts that may have been more restrained years ago. The gun-themed Christmas cards that have started to become popular seem like an outgrowth of this.

Societal changes have certainly been contributing factors, but they're hard to isolate. One of the bigger ones, in my mind, is that we've effectively normalized mass shootings. The shock of a Columbine for the most part just isn't there anymore. It's been 2 weeks since a bunch of 10-11 year olds were slowly killed in so brutal a manner they were identified by DNA or their shoes, and it seems like a lot of people are past it, whether through general march of time, busy lives, or possibly a sense of hopelessness. No one is out protesting in the streets, despite people being passionate about this issue. We can't seem to find the spark to compel a change.

I think this normalization is a part of what makes it easy for a shooter to move forward with their shooting - the absence of tremendous shock and consequences on a societal level communicates that what they are about to do is a normal thing. Maybe that's part of the reason that even among adults, we see mass shootings rather than more McVeigh-style bombings.

For all the good it offers, I feel the internet also contributes by allowing for the creation of communities where this violence is celebrated and at-risk people who might otherwise have just been a town's isolated loners instead find a place where they are encouraged toward violence by others who have no stake in the game.

Other social issues that are likely contributing factors on a personal or community level:
  • lack of access to coordinated mental health care
  • rise in single parent households
  • failures within the education system
  • perception that it's harder/impossible to achieve the "American Dream"
  • decreased social/economic mobility
More recent social effects are harder for me to judge, as I'm less familiar with research there and feel my own lived experienced isn't enough to have a tremendous grasp on what has changed over the years. Have we become more busy and stressed or has life always been like this? Do kids have it tougher nowadays with pervasive nature of social media making it tougher to escape difficult situations (bullying, etc.) or are we just seeing the same problems in a new media? Have we all become overwhelmed with so much information that we have to choose what we care about in a way we never had to before?

I don't think there's any one thing that has changed that we can change back to reduce gun violence and mass shootings. Investment at a community level is warranted, and we should certainly investigate and continue to try to remedy the social issues above. To do the best we can to stop this violence, we need to recognize that changes are needed at multiple levels. We need to make changes to who can access guns and when they can access them. We should examine the potential for restrictions on guns and their capacity. We should work to create cultures of growth and hope, and prioritize education and support networks for the at-risk and impoverished.

I am still standing firm on the pussification of America. We have men walking around trying to give birth instead of teaching other young MEN how to act. We have women parading down the street holding signs damning every man they have ever came in contact with. We celebrate gender confusion but preach masculinity is toxic. Men do not walk into elementary schools and shoot little kids, little bitches do. Men do not walk ino grocery stores and shoot defenseless people, little bitches do. Its like how the shortest guy you know, I guarantee he drives to biggest lifted truck in town. Same with these sad little boys. They feel small so they want to be big and do someting big... but they know they need an easy target because deep down they know they are little sissy produced by the pussification of America.

Mental Health services? The one thing we do not need is more of this sad American mental health services. Have you ever sat in a college class full of would be social workers and therapists? Where do you think all this pussification comes from?

Failures in the educational system? See my last paragraph. The educational system thinks so highly of themselves and thinks so less of you they want to teach more than just reading, writing, and math but want to be Mom and Dad too...

Perception that it's harder/impossible to achieve the "American Dream"? Could this be attributed to Americas race to the bottom? Telling everyone they are a victim of something and that these imaginary people in this mysterious place are systemically victimizing them. If you aren't a stright white male in the upper or middle class you are told your lack of success is because of these people.... if you are a straight white male in the upper or middle class the guilt America throws on your shoulders can be unbearable if you buy into it or listen to it for more than a few minutes.
 

Blazers46

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If you want to move rights off of age 18 to age 21 then do them all. Can't vote, drink, gamble, porn, smoke, get drafted or buy a gun until age X - package deal.

I guess I am okay with it. But whats the point of becoming an adult if you can't even adult? You are old enough to get married but not protect your family. You are old enough to go to war and protect government interests but cannot protect yourself at home.

We are essentally admitting society sucks so bad we are moving the legal age of adulthood to 21.
 

Irish#1

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If you want to move rights off of age 18 to age 21 then do them all. Can't vote, drink, gamble, porn, smoke, get drafted or buy a gun until age X - package deal.
Hey now! You want to ruin the dreams of 13 & 14 year old boys.
 

Sea Turtle

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I guess I am okay with it. But whats the point of becoming an adult if you can't even adult? You are old enough to get married but not protect your family. You are old enough to go to war and protect government interests but cannot protect yourself at home.

We are essentally admitting society sucks so bad we are moving the legal age of adulthood to 21.
I've always thought this about alcohol and now tobacco.
 

Irish#1

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I see committees in the Senate and the House are working on some legislation. Will be interesting to see how they differ.
 

goldandblue

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I guess I am okay with it. But whats the point of becoming an adult if you can't even adult? You are old enough to get married but not protect your family. You are old enough to go to war and protect government interests but cannot protect yourself at home.

We are essentally admitting society sucks so bad we are moving the legal age of adulthood to 21.

It is true.
 

Irish#1

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Oh boy.

The Texas school police chief criticized for his actions during one of the deadliest classroom shootings in U.S. history said in his first extensive comments since the massacre, published Thursday, that he didn't consider himself the person in charge as it unfolded and assumed someone else had taken control of the law enforcement response.

 

ab2cmiller

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That and his comments about he said he intentionally didn't bring his radios when responding because it would inhibit his ability to run as fast and could result in less accurate shots being fired.

Just bizarre.
 

Blazers46

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Oh boy.



Wow!! Not only will he be fired. I’m curious if there could be possibly be any criminal charges. This is insane. I usually try not to judge someone in their worst moment but this is pathetic… This is so dumb. Did he stop for donuts on the way?
 

irishff1014

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That and his comments about he said he intentionally didn't bring his radios when responding because it would inhibit his ability to run as fast and could result in less accurate shots being fired.

Just bizarre.


That makes no sense what so ever
 

Irish#1

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Looks like there is some progress on legislation that has the support of enough senate Repubs at the moment.

 

RDU Irish

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I guess I am okay with it. But whats the point of becoming an adult if you can't even adult? You are old enough to get married but not protect your family. You are old enough to go to war and protect government interests but cannot protect yourself at home.

We are essentally admitting society sucks so bad we are moving the legal age of adulthood to 21.
Yeah - marriage waits to 21 too. New age of adulthood is 21 - all or nothing. Slow surrender via incrementalism is BS. If nobody wants to grow a spine and stand up for 18 year olds being adults, then move it to 21 and get it over with.
 

drayer54

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Yeah - marriage waits to 21 too. New age of adulthood is 21 - all or nothing. Slow surrender via incrementalism is BS. If nobody wants to grow a spine and stand up for 18 year olds being adults, then move it to 21 and get it over with.
No voting until 21. At least.
 

Irish#1

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Looks like a compromise on a gun control law has been reached and will be voted on. The "boy friend" language seems to be at the heart of it. Not sure how many purchases the "boy friend" part will prevent, but I prefer making it harder for criminals to get guns.

 

drayer54

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Looks like a compromise on a gun control law has been reached and will be voted on. The "boy friend" language seems to be at the heart of it. Not sure how many purchases the "boy friend" part will prevent, but I prefer making it harder for criminals to get guns.

We’re one step closer to having government truth boards deny us the right to self-defense.
 

drayer54

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Please explain.
Once you establish a path to deny someone a right without due process, you open the doors to a government defining what presents a danger to the public that must be disarmed.

We have a government that has failed so badly it tried to create a truth board to manage messaging. Does a school board meeting protester present a danger to the public? What about someone who is opposed to transsexual education components for kids? A red-flag law that puts the burden on the accused to clear themselves after being punished moves us closer to ‘common sense red flags’ for those not conforming. It’s a slippery slope.
 
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