Another Shooting

[Bishop2b5]

This is an interesting point. My grandfather told me a story a long time ago about selling or buying (I forget) a shotgun on a school bus. I was like.... wtf you cannot be serious if someone whipped out a shotgun on a school bus today it would not be a normal day-to-day thing. In fact, it'd be national news. He said everyone carried knives at all times and never thought twice about it.

There is data that backs up what you're saying, too. The frequency of school shootings and mass shootings have gone up like crazy recently. Basically since the mass-adoption of social media/Twitter starting in 2011.

I think there are three issues:
1) Our culture is fucked and beyond repair. People aren't raised right, community structures are warped, individualism is basically toxic, etc. I don't want to get long winded, but yeah that's my opinion.
2) Mental health is not addressed adequately in this country. Over-medicating people who don't need it, not helping those that do. Back in the day wackos would be "committed" somewhere... not saying we should go back to that, just saying I truly believe there's a bigger issue than there used to be. Unstable people have their crazy views reinforced by being able to get on the internet and get validation from other crazy strangers. It used to be that if someone was crazy those around them were likely "normal"... and accordingly, they would reinforce "normal" traits and not validate the crazy. This suppressed dangerous, crazy impulses from coming out. With regard to this fucker... I'm sure he got on social media and had is rage fueled.
3) It is way too easy for unstable people to get their hands on guns, period. It's always been easy to get your hands on guns, that hasn't changed. But it's a problem now, because of #1 and #2. You have guns in the hands of people in a culture that is basically complicit in this shit AND you have a serious mental health problem. So it's just a ticking time bomb that will keep going off until you address #3 OR #1 + #2.

The crazy part? Mass shootings isn't even close to the a statistically significant portion of gun violence. Most gun violence occurs in high population density area by people that belong to the party that is ostensibly anti-gun. Gun violence is a complex fucking problem because we let it get out of hand over a period of decades while other countries took steps to curb it.

I think you're definitely on to something here, Lax. Before social media and the Internet (and I'm not against either of them - it's just that there are some problems stemming from them), as you point out, there were more family, social and cultural pressures to "keep the loonies on the path" and steer them away from going over the edge. Today, they can find countless websites or social media groups who will feed their antisocial/sociopathic tendencies and validate & encourage them.

 

[ACamp1900]

Of course you haven’t and you likely will refuse any sensible ideas anyway. Australia ridded itself of guns within a year with a ban and gun buyback program. No mass shootings in like two decades. That worked and worked well, quickly.

So the giant Australian wall kept Antarica's massive black gun market out??

 

[SonofOahu]

I think you're definitely on to something here, Lax. Before social media and the Internet (and I'm not against either of them - it's just that there are some problems stemming from them), as you point out, there were more family, social and cultural pressures to "keep the loonies on the path" and steer them away from going over the edge. Today, they can find countless websites or social media groups who will feed their antisocial/sociopathic tendencies and validate & encourage them.

And a president that will do the same.

Nothing will come of this. We let 20+ small children get gunned down and did absolutely nothing. THAT was the day our national soul died.

 

[Bishop2b5]

And a president that will do the same.

Nothing will come of this. We let 20+ small children get gunned down and did absolutely nothing. THAT was the day our national soul died.

I was hoping we could have a reasonable, non-partisan discussion about the actual causes of the shootings without resorting to "The idiots on the Right" and "The idiots on the Left" and the typical gun control/anti-gun control rhetoric. Nobody denies that guns are part of the problem, but as I pointed out above, guns were even more readily available a generation or more ago and we didn't have these types of incidents. Obviously, they aren't the entire problem, anymore than cars are the problem with drunk driving fatalities. Clearly there are social, mental health, cultural and other such issues contributing to it.

As for doing absolutely nothing, the problem is that there's no clear answer as to WHAT should be done. Just doing "something" when it won't actually solve the problem is pointless. It makes people feel good about doing something, but doesn't actually solve anything.

 

[Legacy]

FWIW - The Australians that I've talked with are proud of the changes they have made to keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them, including the banning semi- and automatic weapons, beginning after the Port Arthur massacre in '96 with a buyback of over 600,000 weapons all of which were destroyed. They had a national dialogue envisioning changes that would move them forward as a society. The discussion and decisions brought a coalescence around responsible gun ownership, gun sales, gun registration, waiting periods. Usually these discussions have resulted in me being politely asked, "Why don't you in America make these changes?" Another gun buyback recently resulted in 50,000 illegal guns turned in.

Prior to 1996, Australia had 13 mass (>5 victims) killings, which has dropped to zero in the years since. Between 1995 and 2006, gun-related homicides and suicides in the country dropped by 59 percent and 65 percent. Those numbers continue to drop. Aussies are fierce, independent and proud people, who feel they took the right path over twenty years ago that has made their society safer.

In a recent poll, only 6% of Australians thought their gun laws were too strict. 40% felt the laws were "about right". 45% felt the laws were not strong enough.

 

[SonofOahu]

I was hoping we could have a reasonable, non-partisan discussion about the actual causes of the shootings without resorting to "The idiots on the Right" and "The idiots on the Left" and the typical gun control/anti-gun control rhetoric. Nobody denies that guns are part of the problem, but as I pointed out above, guns were even more readily available a generation or more ago and we didn't have these types of incidents. Obviously, they aren't the entire problem, anymore than cars are the problem with drunk driving fatalities. Clearly there are social, mental health, cultural and other such issues contributing to it.

As for doing absolutely nothing, the problem is that there's no clear answer as to WHAT should be done. Just doing "something" when it won't actually solve the problem is pointless. It makes people feel good about doing something, but doesn't actually solve anything.

Remember when Obama made background checks for the mentally ill a requirement for purchasing guns? I wonder who revoked that? This issue became political, once the Republicans decided that securing their finances was more important than saving lives.

Congrats, guys and gals! Your track record in allowing mass-casualty incidents to continue is second to none.

 

[SonofOahu]

Wrong. Australia's homicide rate was already low and falling. The gun buyback had no statistical impact whatsoever. From a University of Melbourne study:

Do you even stats, bro? Take that graph you posted, and segment it into three 8-year parts. Now plot the line of best fit for the three separate sections. It's going to look something like this:

1980 - 1988: ---

1989 - 1996: --- (sloping down, slightly)

1997 - 2004: \

That's a significant difference.

 

[Cackalacky]

So the giant Australian wall kept Antarica's massive black gun market out??

Those penguins make some mean hardware bruh.

Seriously, it seems they recognized the problem and fixed it. Imagine that. They didn’t get all the guns .... something like 20%.

Again I am not saying that will work here, but if we place limits on imagination then yes.... something that must be done will never be realized.

 

[Cackalacky]

The whole guns were more readily available idea is kind of bullshit. There are currently Waaaaaaayyyyyyy more guns in this country right now than ever before. Its like one gun per every man woman and child. People have stockpiles of weapons and ammo. Hunting and sportsmans activities are on the decline.

As of 2009 the US has 101 guns per 100 people. Its like 120 per 100 now. This is twice as much as in 1968n They are also better made, more effective at damage, more accurate, and people are better trained and more knowledgeable at using them.

The number of guns per household is actually on decline but that must mean that guns are being horded.
https://www.npr.org/2016/01/05/462017461/guns-in-america-by-the-numbers

Gun production is in an exponential rise here in the US. Sooooo, I am not buying that one. Call me partisan or whatever name you want.

 

[wizards8507]

The whole guns were more readily available idea is kind of bullshit. There are currently Waaaaaaayyyyyyy more guns in this country right now than ever before. Its like one gun per every man woman and child. People have stockpiles of weapons and ammo. Hunting and sportsmans activities are on the decline.

As of 2009 the US has 101 guns per 100 people. Its like 120 per 100 now. This is twice as much as in 1968n They are also better made, more effective at damage, more accurate, and people are better trained and more knowledgeable at using them.

The number of guns per household is actually on decline but that must mean that guns are being horded.
https://www.npr.org/2016/01/05/462017461/guns-in-america-by-the-numbers

Gun production is in an exponential rise here in the US. Sooooo, I am not buying that one. Call me partisan or whatever name you want.

I agree with this. The sportsman / self-defense argument is weak. The real reason gun rights are important is revolution, God forbid.

Lmao I just figured out that the morons on Twitter think that the AR in AR-15 stands for assault rifle. Wow. That's like taking immigration advice from someone who thinks Mexico is in northern Africa.

 

[IrishLax]

Remember when Obama made background checks for the mentally ill a requirement for purchasing guns? I wonder who revoked that? This issue became political, once the Republicans decided that securing their finances was more important than saving lives.

Congrats, guys and gals! Your track record in allowing mass-casualty incidents to continue is second to none.

The frequency of mass shootings spiked under Obama and you're going to blame Trump. Democrats had control of both houses during Obama's first term... and you're going to blame Trump. The laws and policy that allow this thing to happen pre-date Trump by decades and decades... but you're going to blame Trump.

I just spent all morning Googling and I cannot find a single place that says Obama's regulations that Trump recently repealed would have stopped Cruz from obtaining a gun... in fact, it seems likely that the gun was purchased before anything was repealed, but that exact timeline is not confirmed yet.

I know this is hard to believe, but not every single thing is Trump's fault. If that's all you want to contribute to the discussion, then kindly shut the fuck up and sit down.

 

[Cackalacky]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/

This shows that household ownership is relatively stable over the years for 1972-2017. The values is 43-47% min/max on average.

 

[phork]

The frequency of mass shootings spiked under Obama and you're going to blame Trump. Democrats had control of both houses during Obama's first term... and you're going to blame Trump. The laws and policy that allow this thing to happen pre-date Trump by decades and decades... but you're going to blame Trump.

I just spent all morning Googling and I cannot find a single place that says Obama's regulations that Trump recently repealed would have stopped Cruz from obtaining a gun... in fact, it seems likely that the gun was purchased before anything was repealed, but that exact timeline is not confirmed yet.

I know this is hard to believe, but not every single thing is Trump's fault. If that's all you want to contribute to the discussion, then kindly shut the fuck up and sit down.

I would agree here. The problem is more systemic than any one president can hope to fix. It is woven within the current fabric of American society.

But I will say that if people cannot see a problem with more than 1 gun per person in the country (and more because I am sure those are the legal guns) then I don't know what to tell you.

Reducing the number would be a great start.

 

[Cackalacky]

 

[Cackalacky]

Lax did you say this guy was an ANTIFA Resistance guy? Just trying to confirm. There is a lot of misinformation out there. She says its verified him.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here is an instagram pic of Nikolas Cruz. The kid who murdered 18 innocent children today. <a href="https://t.co/YrdwpUJ4B6">pic.twitter.com/YrdwpUJ4B6</a></p>— Fact Based (@ALLFACTSALLDAY) <a href="https://twitter.com/ALLFACTSALLDAY/status/964012692070477824?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 15, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[wizards8507]

Except that the militia and the state are one in the same. Every able-bodied man of fighting age is part of the militia. Remember, we're not supposed to have a standing army, so the role of the militia is huge. If you want to make a "well regulated" argument, I agree. Make firearms safety training a mandatory course for all high school juniors.

On the militia:

"The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country...."

On the right to revolution:

"It is not certain that with this aid alone [possession of arms], they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to posses the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will, and direct the national force; and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned, in spite of the legions which surround it."

- James Madison

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[IrishLax]

Lax did you say this guy was an ANTIFA Resistance guy? Just trying to confirm. There is a lot of misinformation out there. She says its verified him.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here is an instagram pic of Nikolas Cruz. The kid who murdered 18 innocent children today. <a href="https://t.co/YrdwpUJ4B6">pic.twitter.com/YrdwpUJ4B6</a></p>— Fact Based (@ALLFACTSALLDAY) <a href="https://twitter.com/ALLFACTSALLDAY/status/964012692070477824?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 15, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Yeah, first of all, I don't even blame myself here because where I read all of this was reputable sources. This wasn't Twitter, it was links to blog posts. Reporting is absolute shit right now with the rush to be first.

I'm reading retractions right now, and one of them is that his name was spelled wrong and they got the wrong guy Nicolas Cruz instead of Nikolas Cruz. Another is that there was a look-a-like that fooled people. Got to be kidding me.

As far as I can tell, he had posts on social media about killing law enforcement and ANTIFA. He had a picture with the MAGA hat. He had anti-Muslim stuff... while belonging to ISIS friendly social media groups?... but most reporting has him as a likely right-winger if I'm reading it correctly. From interviews with former classmates, apparently he was all over the map, and more pro-violence than anything else.

He's alive, so I'm sure he'll talk at some point. I'm going to edit my post.

 

[Cackalacky]

Except that the militia and the state are one in the same. Every able-bodied man of fighting age is part of the militia. Remember, we're not supposed to have a standing army, so the role of the militia is huge. If you want to make a "well regulated" argument, I agree. Make firearms safety training a mandatory course for all high school juniors.

On the militia:

"The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country...."

On the right to revolution:

"It is not certain that with this aid alone [possession of arms], they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to posses the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will, and direct the national force; and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned, in spite of the legions which surround it."

- James Madison

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

By your argument people should be able to have any gun/weapon that the government has, an effective arms race if you will. I think we both can see the absurdity of tkaing that reasoning to fruition.

As far as the militia = state... I dont understand what you are saying. A militia is formed by able bodied men as a call to arms at a time of need.... not a number of individual persons carrying any number of guns (hiddden or otherwise) and parading about an airport just becasue or to go to the gas station to get milk. There si no defense of the state needed anymore with the most adanced army in the world that has the most advanced weapons ever imagined.

 

[wizards8507]

As far as the militia = state... I dont understand what you are saying. A militia is formed by able bodied men as a call to arms at a time of need.... not a number of individual persons carrying any number of guns (hiddden or otherwise) and parading about an airport just becasue or to go to the gas station to get milk. There si no defense of the state needed anymore with the most adanced army in the world that has the most advanced weapons ever imagined.

Spoken like a true Kingsman circa 1775. You don't need superior firepower to win a war. You just need to be able to kill enough of the other guys to make them think twice about how badly they want to fight.

 

[notredomer23]

Why is it so easy to get a weapon of mass destruction?
Why are we not treating those mentally ill?
Why are we allowing mentally ill to purchase weapons of mass destruction?
Why are we not making gun owners pass tests on an annual basis to ensure not just their competency with the weapon to avoid accidents, but also their mental competency?

And the answer to all those questions is: The American political system.

 

[ACamp1900]

Yeah, first of all, I don't even blame myself here because where I read all of this was reputable sources. This wasn't Twitter, it was links to blog posts. Reporting is absolute shit right now with the rush to be first.

I'm reading retractions right now, and one of them is that his name was spelled wrong and they got the wrong guy Nicolas Cruz instead of Nikolas Cruz. Another is that there was a look-a-like that fooled people. Got to be kidding me.

As far as I can tell, he had posts on social media about killing law enforcement and ANTIFA. He had a picture with the MAGA hat. He had anti-Muslim stuff... while belonging to ISIS friendly social media groups?... but most reporting has him as a likely right-winger if I'm reading it correctly. From interviews with former classmates, apparently he was all over the map, and more pro-violence than anything else.

He's alive, so I'm sure he'll talk at some point. I'm going to edit my post.

What's sick here is people are clearly waiting for THIS... the primary concern for so many isn't the event, or the families of the deceased, it's, 'okay let's all hope he's 'one of them' so we can use it.' I'm just sick to my stomach over everything and then before the sun even rises on the next day this dynamic sets in and just adds to the nausea.

 

[wizards8507]

Why is it so easy to get a weapon of mass destruction?
Why are we not treating those mentally ill?
Why are we allowing mentally ill to purchase weapons of mass destruction?
Why are we not making gun owners pass tests on an annual basis to ensure not just their competency with the weapon to avoid accidents, but also their mental competency?

And the answer to all those questions is: The American political system.

Wrong. I live in a state that tries to do all of the things you'd like it to do. The end result is that it costs hundreds of dollars for ordinary citizens to comply with all of the background checks and licensing and everything else. For all the talk about people living paycheck-to-paycheck, you're advocating for what boils down to a poll tax, restricting the right to keep and bear arms to the wealthy while disenfranchising the poor.

 

[GowerND11]

I think one of the reasons we are seeing mass shootings increase in the USA is because these people see that they can do it, from a cultural view point. This is hard for me to explain, so I apologize in advance.

Like Bishop said before, it was super common for teenagers and young adults to carry pocket knives, even guns with them in everyday life. Hell, I live in a rural area, and many used to come to school with their rifle or shotgun in their pickup on the rack so they could hunt before school and after. Culturally here, it was acceptable to have guns, BUT also to know proper safety.

Fast forward to today. With the lack of mental health funding, access to guns, access to disturbing web pages/social media/etc., violent games (which I do enjoy), and the, what I believe, TOTAL lack of cultural empathy towards our neighbors, we are seeing young people (mostly male) act out in these aggressive mass shootings. Lax touched upon individualism in a previous post, and I agree with him. We are all so sheltered from the outside world, so protected from consequences as well, that we are no longer living within communities, but rather almost a VR where we are merely a character.

 

[Cackalacky]

Unconfirmed.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Breaking: Possible shots fired at North Broward Preparatory School in Coconut Creek, Florida.</p>— Jim Sciutto (@jimsciutto) <a href="https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/964153736091357184?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 15, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Cackalacky]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NRA on Florida's governor (2014): "Rick Scott has an unmatched record of support for the Second Amendment in Florida...Rick has signed more pro-gun bills into law in one term than any other governor in Florida history." <a href="https://t.co/dJNz8AdsqQ">https://t.co/dJNz8AdsqQ</a></p>— Ken Klippenstein (@kenklippenstein) <a href="https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/status/963896881016340480?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 14, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


NRA to Scott be like:

 

[wizards8507]

The FBI Was Warned About A School Shooting Threat From A YouTube User Named Nikolas Cruz In September

SMH

 

[yankeehater]

It looks as if this guy may have been reported to the FBI last September.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/briannasac...ng-threat-from?utm_term=.kjWRvDpMK#.vl2KORJjr

 

[yankeehater]

I heard yesterday that there is software readily available to make this type of rifle on a 3D printer as we speak. How will any new/existing gun laws prevent someone from making their own if this is true?

 

[GowerND11]

I heard yesterday that there is software readily available to make this type of rifle on a 3D printer as we speak. How will any new/existing gun laws prevent someone from making their own if this is true?

https://3dprint.com/139537/3d-printed-guns/

 

[Irishize]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/

This shows that household ownership is relatively stable over the years for 1972-2017. The values is 43-47% min/max on average.

Then why weren’t crazies murdering innocents in the 70s & 80s? Not trying to be snarky....truly wonder why the mass shootings have become epidemic if gun ownership has been stable over the years.