All Things Star Wars Thread (Spoilers)

[tussin]

As mentioned, KR was hurt--Chewie shot him. Also:
1) she had been using the force her whole life, like Anakin with computers and mechanics and piloting
2) between Solo and Kylo Ren she was in a place where she had ZERO doubts about the reality of the Force
3) she was desperate- it was live or die

There is a difference in showing the ability to use the Force and defeating the First Order's best enforcer in your first lightsaber battle (first time even holding a lightsaber actually). I don't care if Kylo was hurt -- I thought the scene made him look too weak and her look too strong.

The Mary Sue critiques are valid, IMO. It becomes even more absurd when you take a step back and compare her progression to Luke's.

 

[gkIrish]

The mind trick scene didn't bother me because you guys have to remember that 30 years have passed and, as she did with Han Solo, Rey probably heard stories about Luke Skywalker and his powers. Easily could have heard stories about Jedis using mind tricks and thought she would try it. Heck, it's not like she had anything to lose.

However, I agree that her ability to use the Force to grab the lightsaber despite Kylo Ren trying to do the same was borderline ridiculous.

 

[Domina Nostra]

There is a difference in showing the ability to use the Force and defeating the First Order's best enforcer in your first lightsaber battle (first time even holding a lightsaber actually). I don't care if Kylo was hurt -- I thought the scene made him look too weak and her look too strong.

The Mary Sue critiques are valid, IMO. It becomes even more absurd when you take a step back and compare her progression to Luke's.

How long did Luke train? There was the battle of Hoth, Luke traveled to Dagobbah. The Mil. Falcon was chased, hid in the asterroid field, floated away with the garbage, traveled to Bespin, had dinner with Vadar, and Luke was there within a day or two. If you stretch that timeline to its breaking point, he trained a couple of days and held his own against the Sith Lord/Hero of the CLone Wars.

The point is that Luke Skywalker was extremely strong with the force, as Rey obviously is as well. They are super-Jedi.

Not sure how much of an argument, "I don't care is." When someone is shot through the side by a weapon they spend the whole movie bragging about, and then fights like its nothing, that's equally implausible to what you are suggesting.

Also Kylo Ren was also shown as being visibly shaken by rey's inate powers--she freaked him out. He was scared in the interrogation room by her, and he was shaken up while he was searching for her, claiming she was growing stronger. They spent the movie showing that KR loses his cool and his focus in certain situations. He was completely internally-conflicted whihc made him WEAK. That is why Snoke wanted him to kill Solo. He had to get that ruthless focus.

They also went out of their way to show that Rey was competent to defending herself with a staff, so she has some muscle development/memory in that realm. It's not sword fighting, but she wasn't a waitress or school teacher.

And personally, I just can't stand hearing the term "Mary Sue" over and over. We need a new term. It's like those message board posts that get into Nancies and Pollys. Please no more.

 

[BeauBenken]

The mind trick scene didn't bother me because you guys have to remember that 30 years have passed and, as she did with Han Solo, Rey probably heard stories about Luke Skywalker and his powers. Easily could have heard stories about Jedis using mind tricks and thought she would try it. Heck, it's not like she had anything to lose.

However, I agree that her ability to use the Force to grab the lightsaber despite Kylo Ren trying to do the same was borderline ridiculous.

I took this as the lightsaber being inherently hers so her force pull effected the lightsaber more than Kylo's.

 

[Cackalacky]

There is a difference in showing the ability to use the Force and defeating the First Order's best enforcer in your first lightsaber battle (first time even holding a lightsaber actually). I don't care if Kylo was hurt -- I thought the scene made him look too weak and her look too strong.

The Mary Sue critiques are valid, IMO. It becomes even more absurd when you take a step back and compare her progression to Luke's.

We don't actually know his skill level. We do know he is not fully trained, whatever that means. He obviously lacks refinement ( ie lightsaber construction), he is petulant, but can manipulate minds using the dark side (appears effective but also appears to be the opposite use of a Jedi Mind trick).... I guess what I am getting at is he does not display typical Sith Force powers but rather Jedi powers applied with dark side intent. He seems like a fallen jedi apprentice rather than a Sith acolyte.

I read that he was punching himself in the wound to ramp himself up with hate and anger to tap into the dark side. SO IMO he is mediocre in accessing the dark side but is desperately trying to kill the light in himself.

As to Rey, her development is no different than Luke's IMO. He was deflecting blaster bolts after holding the light saber for less than a day and as Domina Nostra showed, within a ridiculously short time period Luke learned enough to go toe to toe with Vader for a while, although I think Vader was toying with him. When he finally turned up the hate, he pretty much dominated Luke at Bespin. But Vader was as strong as he was ever gonna be during that fight. Ren was not and is not even complete and had to resort to punching himself in a massive wound to tap into his hate.

My initial expectations, prior to seeing the movie, were that Ren was gonna equal or be greater than Vader ( ie the opening scene in ANH) because we did not know the back story. Those expectations have changed now that I know he is the young son of the Solos, failed at his Jedi training early on, worships the dark side version of Vader, is incomplete in his training, is convincing himself he wants to be dark side, is apparently inexperienced in fighting force users, and is not even the highest ranking person in the FO.

 

[tussin]

I took this as the lightsaber being inherently hers so her force pull effected the lightsaber more than Kylo's.

Is that even a thing? Are lightsabers now like wands in Harry Potter?

 

[Cackalacky]

Is that even a thing? Are lightsabers now like wands in Harry Potter?

IMO No and I would hate it if it were the case. Although we do not even now how Luke's Lightsaber from Bespin was found after Vader cut his hand off.

I just think Ren is not as powerful as we all thought initially and that our expectations of his powers need to be tempered.

 

[wizards8507]

Is that even a thing? Are lightsabers now like wands in Harry Potter?

IMO No and I would hate it if it were the case. Although we do not even now how Luke's Lightsaber from Bespin was found after Vader cut his hand off.

I just think Ren is not as powerful as we all thought initially and that our expectations of his powers need to be tempered.

The crystal is unique to the Jedi and may carry some kind of loyalty to the bloodline. The metal nuts and bolts are not.

Before placing the crystal in the lightsaber, the Jedi or Sith had to imbue them with the Force. To do this, the Force-user was required to meditate on the crystal for many days. Luke Skywalker meditated on his crystal in Ben Kenobi's home for many days with only R2-D2 to keep him company.

 

[tussin]

How long did Luke train? There was the battle of Hoth, Luke traveled to Dagobbah. The Mil. Falcon was chased, hid in the asterroid field, floated away with the garbage, traveled to Bespin, had dinner with Vadar, and Luke was there within a day or two. If you stretch that timeline to its breaking point, he trained a couple of days and held his own against the Sith Lord/Hero of the CLone Wars.

The point is that Luke Skywalker was extremely strong with the force, as Rey obviously is as well. They are super-Jedi.

Luke didn't hold his own again Vader in Empire. Vader was toying with him and Luke stood no chance. As we all know, this is after he spent time training on Dagobah with the most powerful Jedi in existence. Rey has no known training and is instinctively pulling off Jedi mind tricks, using the force to grab things, and outdueling someone who has spent a large majority of their life training. She is apparently beyond a super-Jedi.

Not sure how much of an argument, "I don't care is." When someone is shot through the side by a weapon they spend the whole movie bragging about, and then fights like its nothing, that's equally implausible to what you are suggesting.

Also Kylo Ren was also shown as being visibly shaken by rey's inate powers--she freaked him out. He was scared in the interrogation room by her, and he was shaken up while he was searching for her, claiming she was growing stronger. They spent the movie showing that KR loses his cool and his focus in certain situations. He was completely internally-conflicted whihc made him WEAK. That is why Snoke wanted him to kill Solo. He had to get that ruthless focus.

I get that Kylo was shaken by Rey's ability to use the Force, but earlier in the movie he showed an ability to both stop a lightbeam in midair and freeze people in midair. Did Chewie's shot somehow make him forget these abilities?

And personally, I just can't stand hearing the term "Mary Sue" over and over. We need a new term. It's like those message board posts that get into Nancies and Pollys. Please no more.

My critique has nothing to do with the fact that she's a woman -- I think she was a bit idealized and unrealistic. I'd say the same if it was a male.

 

[Cackalacky]

The crystal is unique to the Jedi and may carry some kind of loyalty to the bloodline. The metal nuts and bolts are not.

This is EU or canon?

 

[BeauBenken]

Is that even a thing? Are lightsabers now like wands in Harry Potter?

I just figured that with the way she was called to the lightsaber.

Essentially what Wiz said.

 

[ulukinatme]

I see people keep saying Rey shouldn't have beaten Kylo Ren at the end of the movie. I don't find it that hard to believe, at least in lightsaber combat. For one, Ren doesn't seem to be an accomplished Sith. He asks Snoke to show him the power of the dark side again during the movie, right? He's still new to this, and he cut his training with Luke short. Is Rey trained with a lightsaber? Maybe not, but if she's Luke's kid maybe she has received some training. If she hasn't, she's at least proficient in combat as she bested Finn pretty easily with her staff and Finn had military training. She's no moisture farmer like Luke in New Hope. She's been on her own in the desert, scraping to survive and fighting to live, she's tough. I agree that Ren should have been the stronger of the two when it comes to the Force, but maybe he was holding back. Maybe he knows Rey is related to him?

 

[tussin]

I see people keep saying Rey shouldn't have beaten Kylo Ren at the end of the movie. I don't find it that hard to believe, at least in lightsaber combat. For one, Ren doesn't seem to be an accomplished Sith. He asks Snoke to show him the power of the dark side again during the movie, right? He's still new to this, and he cut his training with Luke short. Is Rey trained with a lightsaber? Maybe not, but if she's Luke's kid maybe she has received some training. If she hasn't, she's at least proficient in combat as she bested Finn pretty easily with her staff and Finn had military training. She's no moisture farmer like Luke in New Hope. She's been on her own in the desert, scraping to survive and fighting to live, she's tough. I agree that Ren should have been the stronger of the two when it comes to the Force, but maybe he was holding back. Maybe he knows Rey is related to him?

It sounds like I'm ragging on the movie but I really, really liked it.

I just feel that they should have struck a better balance in that last scene. Ren should have been a bit stronger and Rey a bit weaker. I would have really loved it if the results were flipped with Ren ending the fight with the upper hand but a clear understanding that Rey has potential as a worthy adversary.

All that being said, I generally loved Ren's storyline, and I'm sure he will be much more capable and villainous in the next one. Driver is a fantastic actor too.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Luke didn't hold his own again Vader in Empire. Vader was toying with him and Luke stood no chance. As we all know, this is after he spent time training on Dagobah with the most powerful Jedi in existence. Rey has no known training and is instinctively pulling off Jedi mind tricks, using the force to grab things, and outdueling someone who has spent a large majority of their life training. She is apparently beyond a super-Jedi.

I get that Kylo was shaken by Rey's ability to use the Force, but earlier in the movie he showed an ability to both stop a lightbeam in midair and freeze people in midair. Did Chewie's shot somehow make him forget these abilities?

My critique has nothing to do with the fact that she's a woman -- I think she was a bit idealized and unrealistic. I'd say the same if it was a male.

1) But Luke never got any more formal training and eventually got the best of Vadar, who had gone through years of formal training. He beat him once Vadar got conflicted, like Ren did in this story. That is one of the drawbacks of the darkside, inner-conflict makes you weak.

2) The ability to use the force is based on clarity, focus, and emotional control. KR was in total control in the first scene. Compare his interrogation of Poe with his interrogation of Rey.

3) Believe me, I was not accusing you of sexism. If I hear any more discussion about subtle sexism in Star Wars I am going to puke. Everyone is falling over backwards in every walk of life to pretend men and women are equivalent, and it bores me to death.

And thanks for the lively SW discussion!!!!

I just feel that they should have struck a better balance in that last scene. Ren should have been a bit stronger and Rey a bit weaker. I would have really loved it if the results were flipped with Ren ending the fight with the upper hand but a clear understanding that Rey has potential as a worthy adversary.

From the story-telling perspective, they were emphasizing:

1) Kylo Ren was badly hurt
2) Kylo Ren was badly shaken by Rey's inner-strength, which is literally his glaring weakness and insecurity
3) Rey is VERY powerful natually, like Luke and Anakin.

 

[tussin]

Is Kylo Ren a Sith?

 

[ulukinatme]

I think Kylo Ren IS a Sith, but he's very early in the process. It seems like he turned very recently and still isn't familiar with the dark side and his own powers. He obviously has talent, given the fact he was able to stop that blaster bolt, but it's not unheard of for an untrained force user to achieve impressive feats (Luke guiding the proton torpedo into the first Death Star, Anakin winning the pod race, etc).

 

[Domina Nostra]

Is Kylo Ren a Sith?

No. It's like Martial arts. You may be a well-trained kung-fu expert, but you aren't a Shaolin monk. Not everyone who has the force and stays on the light side is a Jedi, and not everyone who embraces the darkside is a Sith.

He would be Darth something if he was a Sith, and it doesn't sound like Snoke is currently claiming to be a Sith either (though some think he is Darth Palagius-- a Sith Palpatine talks about in Ep. 3).

 

[Cackalacky]

Is Kylo Ren a Sith?

IMO no. He seems to be very weak in dark side powers and seems to use more jedi powers for dark purposes. Sounds like Snoke is going to change that though.

 

[ulukinatme]

A character can be a Sith, but not be a Sith Lord.

 

[johnnycando]

Kylo Ren is certainly not a Jedi.

He may not be a "Sith," per say.

 

[wizards8507]

A character can be a Sith, but not be a Sith Lord.

I don't think that's correct after the Rule of Two. Sith "Lord" is just syntax, like Jedi Knight. Dark side force adepts are either apprentices or they enter the hierarchy of two Sith Lords, one of which is The Master and the other The Apprentice.

 

[Cackalacky]

A character can be a Sith, but not be a Sith Lord.

Errr that violates the Sith code. one master, one apprentice. There are dark side force users like the Witches of Dathomir but they are not Sith.

 

[wizards8507]

Errr that violates the Sith code. one master, one apprentice. There are dark side force users like the Witches of Dathomir but they are not Sith.

Right. You can argue that Darth Bane isn't canon, but the Rule of Two is.

Mace Windu: There's no doubt the mysterious warrior was a Sith.
Yoda: Mm. Always two there are. No more, no less. A master, and an apprentice.
Mace Windu: But which was destroyed? The master, or the apprentice?

 

[Cackalacky]

Right. You can argue that Darth Bane isn't canon, but the Rule of Two is.

Mace Windu: There's no doubt the mysterious warrior was a Sith.
Yoda: Mm. Always two there are. No more, no less. A master, and an apprentice.
Mace Windu: But which was destroyed? The master, or the apprentice?

It is my understanding the Rule of Two is canonical though not specifically stated other than your quotes from TPM. I think there are many allusions to it as well throughout the canonical material adn movies. Sidious, while always cultivating possible apprentices only ever has one. Assajj is more a means to an end for Sidious but takes on the role of the apprentice for Dooku but since he is not the Lord, he cannot claim an apprentice.

Sidious also tells Darth Maul that he has been replaced during their fight in the Clone Wars Cartoon. He tells Luke to defeat his father and join him by his side. Sidious sacrifices Dooku in Episode III to aid Anakin towards the dark side. Darth Vader even tries to get Luke to join him to fight the Emperor and take over the Empire.

That is the biggest thing with the Sith is that there are only two until there are not and three is too many.

 

[GATTACA!]

From the story-telling perspective, they were emphasizing:

1) Kylo Ren was badly hurt
2) Kylo Ren was badly shaken by Rey's inner-strength, which is literally his glaring weakness and insecurity
3) Rey is VERY powerful natually, like Luke and Anakin.

And he wasn't trying to kill her! Everyone i see complaining about this ignores the fact that he was trying to capture her not maim or kill her. He had he backed up to the edge of a cliff and lets her go, he could have easily pushed her off right there.

I don't think that's correct after the Rule of Two. Sith "Lord" is just syntax, like Jedi Knight. Dark side force adepts are either apprentices or they enter the hierarchy of two Sith Lords, one of which is The Master and the other The Apprentice.

The rule of two is the dumbest thing in all of star wars.

 

[wizards8507]

The rule of two is the dumbest thing in all of star wars.

Because?

 

[IrishLion]

Wookiepedia says Snoke is interested in Ren because of his balance between the Dark and the Light.

This is probably because Snoke is a Sith Lord or is trying to take up the mantle. But perhaps Snoke is trying to use Ren as a user who wields both sides, and eliminates all other Force users to bring about "balance."

 

[Domina Nostra]

Because?

I think the rule of two is more of a rule of tumb. If you train your disciple to be completely ruthless and ambitious, he is eventually going to try to supplant you.

 

[johnnycando]

I think the rule of two is more of a rule of tumb. If you train your disciple to be completely ruthless and ambitious, he is eventually going to try to supplant you.

No doubt.

Interesting concept knowing eventually you'll be killed by your apprentice.

 

[GATTACA!]

Because?

Because it makes no sense. It puts a restriction on the storytelling for no good reason.

Wouldn't it be awesome to see a Sith temple with for instance Kylo Ren teaching a group of young Sith how to harness fear and anger? Nope rule of two. What if both the master and apprentice are wiped out in one battle? Then the Sith are completely gone because for some reason there can only be two. I would love to see a war between Jedi and Sith. A nice big climactic battle, but we will never see that because there can't be more than 2 Sith for some reason. The Jedi numbers are limitless, so you know two Sith will never be able to actually defeat a large number of Jedi. Also the Jedi never have to worry about the number of Sith growing and gaining power. Nop there will always just be 2 for no reason.

They are setting themselves up for failure. Not only is it unnecessarily risky for the Sith to limit their own numbers to two, from a personality perspective makes no sense for people that are extremely power hungry. Why wouldn't a Sith lord want to grow his number of disciples as high as possible? They should be organized like the Jedi. Have one emperor, then a few Sith Lords for a council, and then as many regular Siths as they want.

Really the big issue is predictability. The Sith Lord will eventually be killed by a his apprentice that had secretly taken on their own apprentice. Boring blah storytelling that you can see coming. All thanks to the stupid rule of two.