All Things SCOTUS

NorthDakota

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Irish YJ

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Yes. It really is the dream.

For me it is. I know the country and the world are going left. And that's not all bad. Some aspects of it (the country going left) are good, and some are very bad. Most of the bad is simply identity politics, entitlements vs temporary aid and common sense, and blind the embracing of globalism. What I value most, is that the US stay the course of it's original charter, which is not purely left of right. And that the US put their citizens above all others while embracing legal and logical immigration that benefits the country and those that come here. A right SCOTUS will adhere most to that original charter.
 

Irish YJ

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So the nutty 9th is one less nuttier...

9th Circuit gets another Trump-picked judge, after White House bypasses consultation with Dems
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ni...r-white-house-bypasses-consultation-with-dems

Supreme Court to decide fate of WWI memorial cross in church and state dispute
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/26/politics/supreme-court-peace-cross-church-and-state/index.html


#WhereIsRBG?

what ya mean. she's working out of course. getting her sexy back

00-promo-image-rbg-workout-colbert.gif


colbert-and-rbg.gif


gins.gif
 

NorthDakota

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So the nutty 9th is one less nuttier...

9th Circuit gets another Trump-picked judge, after White House bypasses consultation with Dems
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ni...r-white-house-bypasses-consultation-with-dems

Supreme Court to decide fate of WWI memorial cross in church and state dispute
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/26/politics/supreme-court-peace-cross-church-and-state/index.html




what ya mean. she's working out of course. getting her sexy back

00-promo-image-rbg-workout-colbert.gif


colbert-and-rbg.gif


gins.gif

Beautiful to see the 9th get another conservative voice.
 

Sea Turtle

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I thought there were two that he was going to bypass the blue slip process by?
 

Irish YJ

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Beautiful to see the 9th get another conservative voice.

What's even more disturbing than the reversal/vacated rate, is the growth rate of cases in the 9th. By far more than any other. Can't remember the figure I read (for recent cases), but I do know that from like 99 to 2008, the 9th cases increased by 50%, where most others were close to static or small gains.

We're still suffering all over from the Jimmy Carter years lol.

And the fact they haven't split the 9th (covers 20% of the population), is completely asinine.

I thought there were two that he was going to bypass the blue slip process by?

I think he just announced 2, but they are two more. The one in the article, was actually confirmed today.
 

Legacy

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In shift, Trump administration backs judge’s ruling that would kill Obamacare
(Politico March 25,2019)

The Trump administration on Monday said it supports a federal judge's ruling that the entire Affordable Care Act should be thrown out, signaling a shift in the Justice Department's position and alarming Democrats who vowed to oppose the move.

"The Department of Justice has determined that the district court's judgment should be affirmed," three Justice Department lawyers wrote to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, which is now considering the case. "[T]he United States is not urging that any portion of the district court's judgment be reversed."
...

Federal Judge Strikes Down Entire ACA; Law Remains In Effect
(Health Affairs, DECEMBER 15, 2018)

On December 14, 2018—the eve of the final deadline for the 2019 open enrollment period in most states—Texas federal district court judge Reed O’Connor issued a highly anticipated decision in Texas v. Azar, a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the individual mandate and, with it, the entire Affordable Care Act (ACA).

Judge O’Connor concludes that, since Congress has eliminated the fine for not complying with the individual mandate, the mandate is no longer permissible under Congress’s taxing power and is thus unconstitutional. Because the individual mandate is “essential” to and inseverable from the ACA, the judge declares, the entire law is invalid.

Judge O’Connor, who sits in the Northern District of Texas, does not enjoin the ACA. This means that the law’s provisions remain in effect in all 50 states and DC. The decision is likely to be stayed and appealed quickly to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals (pending resolution of some potential procedural issues) and presumably the Supreme Court of the United States.

DOJ Declines To Defend Key ACA Provisions
In an unusual move, the Department of Justice (DOJ) agreed with the plaintiffs that some, but not all, of the ACA should be struck down. The DOJ decided not to defend the constitutionality of the individual mandate and noted its belief that certain additional provisions of the ACA are inseverable from the mandate: guaranteed issue, community rating, the ban on preexisting condition exclusions, and discrimination based on health status. The loss of these protections from the ACA would be devastating for many people with preexisting conditions.

President Trump and other federal officials have strenuously argued that they are not undermining protections for preexisting conditions. However, Judge O’Connor’s opinion correctly characterizes the DOJ as arguing that “the individual mandate is unconstitutional and inseverable from the ACA’s pre-existing-condition provisions.”

The Decision
Judge O’Connor reaches three conclusions: 1) the plaintiffs have standing to sue; 2) the individual mandate is no longer permissible under Congress’s taxing power and is unconstitutional; and 3) the individual mandate is essential to and inseverable from the entire ACA, meaning the entire law is declared invalid. This post discusses each of these conclusions in turn.

Standing
A plaintiff must have standing to bring a lawsuit in federal district court in the first place. To show standing, a plaintiff must have suffered an injury that is fairly traceable to the conduct of the defendant that is likely to be redressed by a favorable decision.

The intervenor states and the American Medical Association (AMA), joined by other physician groups in an amicus brief, challenged the standing of both the plaintiff states and the individual plaintiffs. They argued that the individual plaintiffs did not have standing to sue because the harm they faced was self-inflicted. Put another way, the individual plaintiffs could choose to purchase coverage or not and they will pay zero dollars in penalties if they choose to be uninsured beginning in 2019. By choosing to purchase coverage even without the penalty, they are trying to manufacture an injury and standing.

Judge O’Connor rejects this argument, concluding that the individual plaintiffs are the “object” of the individual mandate because they are being required to purchase and maintain health insurance. He also notes that a showing of an economic injury is not required and that standing can be shown where a federal law deters the exercise of a constitutional right. A declaration that the individual mandate is unconstitutional would, in Judge O’Connor’s mind, redress this injury by freeing the individual plaintiffs from “arbitrary governance.”

This analysis has already been criticized by conservative legal scholars, such as Jonathan Adler, who noted that Judge O’Connor “completely botched the relevant analysis, concluding the plaintiffs have standing to challenge a provision of a law that has no legal effect.” Without a penalty or legal sanction for failing to comply with a law, there is no injury to these individual plaintiffs. Judge O’Connor reaches the opposite conclusion “only by ignoring the actual operation of the law.”

In a perplexing move, Judge O’Connor devotes no attention to whether the plaintiff states have standing to sue. The individual plaintiffs were not original parties to the litigation, which was initially brought only by the plaintiff states. The individual plaintiffs were added to the lawsuit nearly two months after it was filed, likely with the goal of bolstering the plaintiffs’ claim of standing.

Instead, Judge O’Connor focuses solely on whether the two individual plaintiffs have standing. He does so under the theory that one party with standing is sufficient to satisfy Article III’s case-or-controversy requirement; thus, not every party needs to show standing. This theory, that “one good plaintiff is enough,” has faced criticism. After concluding that the two individual plaintiffs have standing, Judge O’Connor simply notes that “the case-or-controversy requirement is met.” He includes no discussion of whether—or not—the plaintiff states have standing to sue.

Constitutionality Of The Individual Mandate With $0 Penalty
Judge O’Connor concludes that the individual mandate cannot be saved under Congress’s tax power or its Commerce Clause power and is unconstitutional under either provision.

Tax Power

The opinion makes a distinction between the individual mandate and the individual mandate penalty, noting that the 2010 Congress intended for the two to be distinct. In Judge O’Connor’s view, the 2017 Congress solidified this intent when it zeroed out the penalty but did not repeal or eliminate the mandate itself. He believes that the separation between the mandate and the penalty is consistent with the Supreme Court’s analysis in NFIB. Because the individual mandate included the penalty—which was found to be a functional tax—the entire individual mandate could be viewed as a valid exercise of the tax power.

With this distinction made, Judge O’Connor concludes that the individual mandate under the TCJA does not meet the factors laid out in NFIB to be construed as a tax. These factors were that 1) the penalty was paid to the Treasury department when taxpayers filed their tax returns; 2) the amount owed was determined by “familiar factors” and assessed and collected in the same manner as taxes; and 3) the penalty resulted in “the essential feature of any tax” by producing at least some revenue for the government. With the penalty set at $0, Judge O’Connor concludes that the individual mandate no longer meets these factors and thus no longer “triggers a tax” beginning in 2019.

Commerce Clause

The intervenor states had argued that the individual mandate could now be sustained under the Commerce Clause because there is no longer any compulsion to purchase coverage now that the penalty will be $0 beginning in 2019. Judge O’Connor rejected this argument in large part because he understood the states’ argument to be that the individual mandate was no longer compulsory so it “does absolutely nothing.” Because it “does nothing,” it cannot be found to regulate interstate commerce.

Severability
Setting aside long-standing severability doctrine, Judge O’Connor concludes that the individual mandate is inseverable from the remainder of the ACA and declares the entire ACA to be invalid.

Supreme Court precedent on severability directs courts to limit damage to a statute and be guided by congressional intent. The Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals, in concluding that the individual mandate was unconstitutional but severable from the ACA in 2011, noted “the Supreme Court’s strong presumption of severability” and the “overwhelming majority of cases” where the Supreme Court has opted to sever a constitutionally defective provision from the remainder of the statute. The Eleventh Circuit ultimately used this “well-established” doctrine to find the mandate to be severable “as a matter of judicial restraint.”

The intervenor states—and many amici—argued that congressional intent in this case is clear: Congress itself zeroed out the mandate’s penalty in 2017 but left other provisions of the ACA undisturbed. Because the Congress of 2017 acted, it is clear what lawmakers intended and the court need not guess which provisions they would have severed or not. The plaintiffs and DOJ argued that the intent of the Congress that passed the ACA in 2010 should control.

In a curveball, Judge O’Connor concludes that both the 2010 Congress (which passed the ACA) and the 2017 Congress (which passed the TCJA) intended for the mandate to be inseverable from the entire ACA. He believes that the 2010 Congress expressed its unambiguous intent that the mandate not be severed from the ACA and that the 2017 Congress “further entrenched” the intent of the 2010 Congress.
 
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Irish YJ

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Why Trump’s New Push to Kill Obamacare Is So Alarming
It’s not just the potential damage to the health care system and the people who depend on it. It’s also the threat, in the administration’s legal logic, to the rule of law.
.

Bagley is an Orange Man Bad guy who screams foul at everything Trump does. He even has a tantrum when courts rule in favor of Trump.

You love to cite every case where the nutty ninth, NY, or DC district rule against DT, then you simply discount any other court ruling and put a NYT and WAPO Trump hater up as proof. And you love to criticize EO's and EM's but you're OK with DACA...

Courts have now ruled against the ACA, and have also said DACA is likely unconstitutional.
 

Legacy

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Trump seeks to limit judges' powers on injunctions after legal blows (The Hill)

Much but not all of the article:
President Trump is looking to stop lower courts from being able to issue wide-ranging injunctions in a move that could dramatically limit the authority of judges.

The plan comes as groups opposed to Trump have been able to get several of his policies, including those seeking to limit immigration, put on hold by nationwide orders issued by lower courts in battles that were eventually decided by the Supreme Court.

Advocacy groups that have pushed judges to issue nationwide injunctions say they are necessary to protect people from policies they see as harmful, and some legal experts agree, arguing that the right to issue such actions is protected under the Constitution.

But opponents argue that injunctions should be applied more narrowly to groups that are directly impacted, saying the more liberal use of injunctions is hurting the judicial system.

Vice President Pence this week brought the issue front and center, saying in a speech to the conservative Federalist Society that the administration has been “unfairly” targeted by injunctions — and promising to unveil in coming days pathways to put the issue before the Supreme Court.

“So I say to all those gathered here: For the sake of our liberty, our security, our prosperity and the separation of powers, this era of judicial activism must come to an end,” Pence said. “The Supreme Court of the United States must clarify that district judges can decide no more than the cases before them.”

Pursuing an end to nationwide injunctions would mark the latest attempt by President Trump to shape the federal courts after getting two Supreme Court justices confirmed and more than 100 of his judicial picks installed by the Senate.

Trump opponents have argued that nationwide injunctions are necessary to protect people who may not be part of a lawsuit but would nonetheless be impacted by a particular policy or legislation.

“When the extent of the harm is nationwide, the relief should be nationwide,” Sasha Buchert, a senior attorney for the LGBT rights group Lambda Legal, told The Hill.

She pointed to the ban on transgender service members as an example of a national policy that the group was able to fend off by convincing a judge to issue a nationwide injunction, arguing that more soldiers than those filing the lawsuit would have been impacted by the action.

The administration eventually implemented a more limited form of its ban on transgender service members.

Meanwhile, Cecillia Wang, a deputy legal director for the American Civil Liberties Union, said the administration's effort to limit the scope of injunctions "is simply to stand in the way of justice."

Wang also argued that the power to issue nationwide injunctions is protected under the Constitution.

“I can't take seriously the vice president's threat to undo what the founders of the country, the framers of the Constitution intended, which is to have a safeguard against unlawful executive branch action,” Wang said.

But other legal experts oppose nationwide injunctions. They argue that judges’ rulings blocking policies should apply only to those behind the legal challenge and that courts are overstepping their bounds by issuing wide-ranging injunctions.

Samuel Bray, a law professor at the University of Notre Dame who has been vocal in his opposition to national injunctions, said such sweeping orders “take the courts outside of their constitutional role.”

He argued that district courts were designed to rule on matters involving specific parties and not an entire nation. And if individuals in a lawsuit want the order applied nationally, Bray said, they could always file a class-action lawsuit to do so.

“Everybody in the class will win or lose together,” Bray said. And he noted that if one party loses its case for a national injunction before one judge “someone else can take another bite at the apple in another court.”

Nicholas Bagley, a law professor at the University of Michigan who is similarly opposed to nationwide injunctions, said policies that are challenged in court deserve to undergo a “robust” review in the courts and should not simply be put on ice by the ruling of a single judge.

“What I struggle with is why anyone would support handing to judges the authority to put a halt to important government programs just because they happen to get their knickers in a twist about a particular case,” Bagley said.

It’s unclear how the Supreme Court would rule if the question does land before it....
 
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Legacy

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When the courts become political, the legislature becomes weak, and the executive branch is mighty.... this is what happens.

One has some sympathy towards the argument that nation-wide injunctions “take the courts outside of their constitutional role.” as Bray said, but really that assumes that government acts as the Framers designed it with the legislative branch the most powerful and a small role by the Executive. The relationship between the national government vs the states at the time saw a diminished role for national government with respect to the states, embodied in the concept of constitutional federalism.

But one can argue that with the Executive now wielding so much power and the legislature not acting to restrain the Executive that the federal courts are the only recourse to put the brakes on any excesses any President may take by nation-wide injunctions until the issues can be resolved by the judicial process.

When Bagley argues that “What I struggle with is why anyone would support handing to judges the authority to put a halt to important government programs just because they happen to get their knickers in a twist about a particular case.” and if he is narrowly defining "government programs" vs Executive Orders, that's one thing. But Pence and Trump clearly want an end to nation-wide injunctions that stop Presidential actions, including EOs, that may or may not be constitutional. Those are the purview of the federal court system. An end to nation-wide injunctions would effectively be fast-tracking cases to the Supreme Court. That's what Wang argued “I can't take seriously the vice president's threat to undo what the founders of the country, the framers of the Constitution intended, which is to have a safeguard against unlawful executive branch action.”

Those that argue against nation-wide injunctions may question one person - a judge in District Court or the deciding judge in an Appeals Court - has undue influence avoids the point that one person - the President - can exercise undue influence with Executive Orders, etc. That is clearly political attempts by the Executive to minimize the constitutional role of the judiciary, amounting to federal government by fiat. IMO
 
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drayer54

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One has some sympathy towards the argument that nation-wide injunctions “take the courts outside of their constitutional role.” as Bray said, but really that assumes that government acts as the Framers designed it with the legislative branch the most powerful and a small role by the Executive. The relationship between the national government vs the states at the time saw a diminished role for a national government with respect to the states, embodied in the concept of constitutional federalism.

But one can argue that with the Executive now wielding so much power and the legislature not acting to restrain the Executive that the federal courts are the only recourse to put the brakes on any excesses any President may take by nation-wide injunctions until the issues can be resolved by the judicial process.

When Bagley argues that “What I struggle with is why anyone would support handing to judges the authority to put a halt to important government programs just because they happen to get their knickers in a twist about a particular case.” and if he is narrowly defining "government programs" vs Executive Orders, that's one thing. But Pence and Trump clearly want an end to nation-wide injunctions that stop Presidential actions, including EOs, that may or may not be constitutional. Those are the purview of the federal court system. An end to nation-wide injunctions would effectively be fast-tracking cases to the Supreme Court. That's what Wang argued, “I can't take seriously the vice president's threat to undo what the founders of the country, the framers of the Constitution intended, which is to have a safeguard against unlawful executive branch action.”

Those that argue against nation-wide injunctions may question one person - a judge in District Court or the deciding judge in an Appeals Court - has undue influence avoids the point that one person - the President - can exercise undue influence with Executive Orders, etc. That is clearly political attempts by the Executive to minimize the constitutional role of the judiciary, amounting to the federal government by fiat. IMO

I like the idea of the Judicial serving as a strong check on the Executive. I do think it is a tremendous power to just one judge and should require more than 1 voice though.
Anything that applies the brakes, is good.
 

Legacy

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On another topic, should anyone wish to comment that this may indicate this SCOTUS will be reconsidering established decisions and precedents....

In Cal v Hyatt, SCOTUS just overruled a 40 year old precedent case on states' sovereign immunity. Thomas, writing for the 5-4 majority on Cal v Hyatt, said that the prior decision in 1979 (Nevada v Hall) was an erroneous interpretation of the Constitution and the Framers' intent. They further critiqued the basis for the theory of stare decisis

A quick analysis in an Opinion article from Scotusblog
Opinion analysis: Hyatt fulfills expectations in a surprising way
In an already familiar 5-4 lineup, the Supreme Court has overruled Nevada v. Hall, which for 40 years has stood for the proposition that states generally lack sovereign immunity in one another’s courts. The new decision vindicates a legal position long held by conservatives, but it appears to endorse a loose approach to finding structural principles in the Constitution. The ruling also adopts a less than exacting view of stare decisis — hardly surprising for Justice Clarence Thomas, who wrote the opinion of the court, but odd given that other members of the majority, particularly Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh, have expressed greater concern for precedent. Time will tell whether Hyatt has set the stage for overrulings to come.

The Decision
Franchise Tax Bd. of Cal. v. Hyatt

II
Nevada v. Hall (1979) is contrary to our constitutional design and the understanding of sovereign immunity shared by the States that ratified the Constitution. Stare decisis does not compel continued adherence to this erroneous precedent. We therefore overrule Hall and hold that States retain their sovereign immunity from private suits brought in the courts of other States.

With the historical record and precedent against him, Hyatt defends Hall on the basis of stare decisis. But stare decisis is "'not an inexorable command,'" Pearson v. Callahan, 555 U. S. 223, 233 (2009), and we have held that it is "at its weakest when we interpret the Constitution because our interpretation can be altered only by constitutional amendment," Agostini v. Felton, 521 U. S. 203, 235 (1997). The Court's precedents identify a number of factors to consider, four of which warrant mention here: the quality of the decision's reasoning; its consistency with related decisions; legal developments since the decision; and reliance on the decision. See Janus v. State, County, and Municipal Employees, 585 U. S. ___, ___-___ (2018) (slip op., at 34-35); United States v. Gaudin, 515 U. S. 506, 521 (1995).

So, by a majority of one Justice, this SCOTUS has indicated it is free to revisit prior decisions, interpret the Framers' intent and determine their constitutional basis. Are the majority on the Court activist judges reworking the direction of SCOTUS in defiance of past decisions - all based on a majority of one Justice?

Amy Coney Barrett said in the Notre Dame Law Review about the tension between stare decisis and Scalia’s originalist philosophy:
Stare decisis is a sensible rule because, among other things, it protects the reliance interests of those who have structured their affairs in accordance with the Court’s existing cases. But what happens when precedent conflicts with the original meaning of the text? If Justice Scalia is correct that the original public meaning is authoritative, why is the Court justified in departing from it in the name of a judicial policy like stare decisis? The logic of originalism might lead to some unpalatable results. For example, if the original meaning of the Constitution’s Gold Clauses prohibits the use of paper money, is an originalist bound to plunge the economy into ruin? Some constitutional theorists treat precedent as capable of supplementing and even supplanting the text’s historical meaning; for them, choosing to follow precedent that diverges from the original meaning is relatively unproblematic. Originalists, in contrast, have difficulty identifying a principled justification for following such precedent, even when the consequences of overruling it would be extraordinarily disruptive.

Faced with this problem, Justice Scalia famously described himself as a “faint-hearted originalist” who would abandon the historical meaning when following it was intolerable. He claimed that “stare decisis is not part of my originalist philosophy; it is a pragmatic exception to it.”

If Scalia’s reported beliefs were true and other conservative Justices feel the same way, it would stand to reason that reports of Roe v. Wade‘s impending demise may be greatly exaggerated.
From: ORIGINALISM AND STARE DECISIS, Amy Coney Barrett (ND Law Review)
 
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Legacy

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Good review of the current attempts to limit abortion clinics with regulations and licensing rules - what are called TRAP laws (Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers). A judge today issued a temporary restraining order on Missouri Health Dept and will hear arguments on Tuesday. Article also mentions South Bend clinic.

The Anti-Abortion Strategy Closing the Last Clinic in Missouri Is Sneakier Than a Ban
“While the nation’s attention is focused on the abortion ban…it’s also equally important for people to understand that a state doesn’t need to ban abortion to eliminate access to abortion.”

(Mother Jones)

And specifically, this article explains how Missouri has regulated abortion clinics down to the St. Louis one.

Missouri could become the first state with zero abortion clinics. How did we get here?
Missouri is facing a post-Roe reality. The reason why is a history of abortion law in America.
(Vox)

TRAP laws passed around the country in the 2000s, but they have had an especially big impact in Missouri. In 2008, the state had five abortion clinics. In 2017, it had two. In October 2018, one of those clinics closed after it couldn’t meet a new requirement that abortion doctors have admitting privileges at a hospital within 15 minutes of the clinic, according to the Washington Post.

The Supreme Court in the 2016 decision Whole Woman’s Health v. Hellerstedt found TRAP laws in Texas unconstitutional. But the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals, which includes Missouri in its jurisdiction, has failed to block such laws.

The prevailing standard is the decision on Planned Parenthood v. Casey that states can regulate abortion clinics as long as the restrictions do not place an "undue burden" on a woman's right. Missouri recently also passed a heartbeat bill without any exceptions. From above:
Today, Missouri has the highest ratio of women of reproductive age to abortion provider of any state in the country, with more than a million women in that age group for just one facility.

If the arguments that a KC Mo and St. Louis abortion clinics do not place an undue burden because both have abortion clinics just across the state lines (Overland Park, Ks and Grant City, Ill), then those clinics existence are reinforced by that reasoning. The ACLU is pursuing a referendum to overturn Missouri's law which has support by a GOP "megadonor". That would increase the 2020 turnout both pro and con.
ACLU seeks to overturn Missouri abortion ban by placing question on 2020 ballot
(KC Star)

Both Gorsuch and Kavanaugh have said in their nomination proceedings that they would follow SCOTUS precedents.
 
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Irish YJ

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I see links to MotherJones and Vox and immediately quit reading.

yup. and the KC Star is solidly left as well.

regardless, any source spewing support for late term abortions is a non-starter for me. i can hold my nose and be OK with early, but anyone telling me it's OK to wait into the 3rd trimester to make a decision is simply disgusting to me. until there is some sort of common sense discussion and compromise, each side is going to press the extremes. and i don't see any common sense discussion or compromise taking place any time soon.
 

BGIF

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...

...

Quote:

The Supreme Court in the 2016 decision Whole Woman’s Health v. Hellerstedt found TRAP laws in Texas unconstitutional.

But the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals, which includes Missouri in its jurisdiction, has failed to block such laws.

...


Both Gorsuch and Kavanaugh have said in their nomination proceedings that they would follow SCOTUS precedents.


So now the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals IS SCOTUS precedent?
 

Legacy

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An advocate of free speech and exchange of ideas in the pursuit of knowledge does not dismiss substance due to source. Preparing for arguments on both sides as a law student or debater may do is a process that leads to respect for either side.

Of all the articles I reviewed on the subjects, I found the Mother Jones, Vox and KC Star ones best addressing each different aspect. You may do yourself a disservice by ignoring them evidencing a partisanship that at its worst disparages others whose opinions on the issues differ.

That said I appreciate YJ's stance on late term abortion and know that the moral aspects of abortion may outweigh any compromise. The results of referendums around the country are very revealing of our differences as Americans.
 
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ACamp1900

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Abortion may cause our next civil war.

Was thinking on this,... if the pro choice left’s big line is abortion (their reactions seem to indicate that for many it is) they clearly don’t see babies in the equation and truly think it’s a civil rights issue. Clearly the right thinks it’s murder. I don’t know how that gets reconciled peacefully without one side completely caving, which I don’t see happening either way.
 
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Legacy

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This civil war theme is being featured in numerous Christian blogs, though I have yet to see it mentioned by those opposing changes in abortion laws.

Intertesting links to all the results of all abortion-related referendums. Some like Alabama's have occasioned changes to their constitution.
Abortion on the ballot (Ballotpedia)

Recent ones in Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Maine, Oregon, Rhode Island, and Washington reflect citizen majorities in favor of preserving the status quo, sometimes overwhelmingly. A referendum for Missouri will probably be on the 2020 ballot.I think it would be short-sighted to equate those majorities as evil and non-Christian.
 
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zelezo vlk

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Recent ones in Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Maine, Oregon, Rhode Island, and Washington reflect citizen majorities in favor of preserving the status quo, sometimes overwhelmingly. A referendum for Missouri will probably be on the 2020 ballot.I think it would be short-sighted to equate those majorities as evil and non-Christian.

Well it's certainly not Christian to murder babies in utero, so I guess I'd disagree that it'd be wrong to call that non-Christian.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
 

Wild Bill

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Abortion may cause our next civil war.

The right will only fight to keep guns. You can supress speech, spy on them, piss on their way of life or violate any right you want and I'm convinced they'll only fight if feds threaten to seize weapons.

The left has no chance in a fight so they'll just infiltrate, take control and slowly boil the rest of us like they've been doing for half a century.

That's one man's opinion.
 

NorthDakota

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Recent ones in Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Maine, Oregon, Rhode Island, and Washington reflect citizen majorities in favor of preserving the status quo, sometimes overwhelmingly. A referendum for Missouri will probably be on the 2020 ballot.I think it would be short-sighted to equate those majorities as evil and non-Christian.

People who support abortion are without a doubt evil. Really no way around it. There is no Christianity in slaughtering the weakest among us.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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The right will only fight to keep guns. You can supress speech, spy on them, piss on their way of life or violate any right you want and I'm convinced they'll only fight if feds threaten to seize weapons.

The left has no chance in a fight so they'll just infiltrate, take control and slowly boil the rest of us like they've been doing for half a century.

That's one man's opinion.

Pretty accurate. Maybe we'll get to that point where it's like the movie the Patriot: the town preacher has a rifle and is on the front lines. Thennnnn it's civil war round II
 
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