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palinurus

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As a nation, America's existence is not threatened by Islamic fanatics. However, as individuals, Americans are the preferred target of those same groups. America is, after all, The Great Satan. Striking blows against the Great Satan is the quickest path to respect in the Middle East. With that respect comes money and power; the two greatest vices of all men.

I think this is all true, but would go further: when planes get flown into office buildings and the Pentagon is hit and the Boston Marathon is attacked, it's more than just "individual Americans" getting attacked. I know those attacks weren't ISIS, I guess, but it's part of the same cloth, the same motivation; that's who this enemy is. It's not just the random journalist who's in the wrong place at the wrong time; it's a broader attack than that. Of course, you are right that they don't threaten our existence at the moment, but they are doing more than cherrypicking. And the aggregate effect of those attacks, and future attacks here, threatens, perhaps not America, but the nature of America, the freedoms of America. That may not be a threat to America's existence, but it is a critical threat, because it affects our essential nature.

As to the article that Whiskey posted, my problem is that the isolationist ideal, while attractive at some level, still should ask the question: what's in OUR national interest? So while a lot of people want to blame the US relationship with Israel for the problem, I ask: 1) Would we rather Israel take them on alone? Is that in the US national interest? 2) What if Israel is gone? Is that in the US national interest to have no allies in the Middle East? Sure, there's Turkey, but for how long? 3) And what makes people think that Israel is the only or last target? Does anyone think Israel disappearing ends the threat to Americans, whether at home or abroad?
 
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enrico514

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It's funny to read all the references to 9/11. None of us know the truth about what happened that day.

It's all about oil and gas... and fucking pipelines. The rest is just a justification for carrying out predetermined actions.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I think this is all true, but would go further: when planes get flown into office buildings and the Pentagon is hit and the Boston Marathon is attacked, it's more than just "individual Americans" getting attacked. I know those attacks weren't ISIS, I guess, but it's part of the same cloth, the same motivation; that's who this enemy is. It's not just the random journalist who's in the wrong place at the wrong time; it's a broader attack than that.

It's important not to conflate homegrown terrorist threats with the likes of ISIS, because, while Islamism is frequently involved in both, the methods of prevention are almost entirely different. The Tsarnaev brothers immigrated to America as children, became US citizens, and had been radicalized fairly recently before the Boston Marathon bombing. We are not protecting ourselves from future homegrown threats by bombing ISIS; if anything, we're increasing that risk due to our constant meddling in the region, and by associating ourselves with despised regimes.

And the aggregate effect of those attacks, and future attacks here, threatens, perhaps not America, but the nature of America, the freedoms of America. That may not be a threat to America's existence, but it is a critical threat, because it affects our essential nature.

They have successfully attacked (and are continuing to attack) our freedoms, but only because we're allowing an irrational fear to trump our values.

As to the article that Whiskey posted, my problem is that the isolationist ideal, while attractive at some level, still should ask the question: what's in OUR national interest?

I'm not an isolationist, but a realist in the mold of George Kennan. He's widely credited as the father of Containment, which was our strategy for defeating the Soviet Union. Kennan was a big proponent of narrowly defining our vital interests, and defending those interests with overwhelming force when necessary. But our current political elites either define our "vital interests" so broadly as to be meaningless, or refuse to define them at all. Which ensures that virtually every conflict on the globe is a threat to our "vital interests", forcing us to constantly intervene, and weakening us through overreach.

So while a lot of people want to blame the US relationship with Israel for the problem, I ask: 1) Would we rather Israel take them on alone? Is that in the US national interest?

If Israel viewed ISIS as an existential threat, it would have been brutally destroyed months ago. ISIS is primarily threatening Syria, which, as a client state of Iran, is just fine with Israel.

2) What if Israel is gone?

Israel has a large nuclear arsenal and the most advanced military in the region. It no longer faces any realistic existential threats. And if another nation actually went to war with Israel, I'd have no problem with the US coming to its aid as an ally. But I do take issue with Israel aggressively lobbying our government to be constantly waging war on its behalf in the Middle East. It's arguably not in Israel's best interests, and it's definitely not in ours.

Is that in the US national interest to have no allies in the Middle East?

We're at least nominally allied with almost every powerful state in that region. Iran is the only exception, which becomes more marginalized by the day. I do think we ought to remind Israel that they are our client (not visa versa), and we ought to seriously reexamine our relationship with the Saudi royal family. But I've never read a serious argument for completely abandoning the ME.

Sure, there's Turkey, but for how long?

Our relations with Turkey have been pretty chilly since Erdogan came into office.

3) And what makes people think that Israel is the only or last target? Does anyone think Israel disappearing ends the threat to Americans, whether at home or abroad?

The Middle East is a horribly complex place. Needless to say, ME v. Israel (and then the US, should they "disappear") isn't remotely close to reality. Ceasing our aggressive military interventions in the region would likely improve security for both Israel and the US; but war is profitable, and jingoism is frequently deployed in both countries to secure cheap political points. When you've got a truly excellent hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
 
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B

Buster Bluth

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It's important not to conflate homegrown terrorist threats with the likes of ISIS, because, while Islamism is frequently involved in both, the methods of prevention are almost entirely different. The Tsarnaev brothers immigrated to America as children, became US citizens, and had been radicalized fairly recently before the Boston Marathon bombing. We are not protecting ourselves from future homegrown threats by bombing ISIS; if anything, we're increasing that risk due to our constant meddling in the region, and by associating ourselves with despised regimes.



They have successfully attacked (and are continuing to attack) our freedoms, but only because we're allowing an irrational fear to trump our values.



I'm not an isolationist, but a realist in the mold of George Kennan. He's widely credited as the father of Containment, which was our strategy for defeating the Soviet Union. Kennan was a big proponent of narrowly defining our vital interests, and defending those interests with overwhelming force when necessary. But our current political elites either define our "vital interests" so broadly as to be meaningless, or refuse to define them at all. Which ensures that virtually every conflict on the globe is a threat to our "vital interests", forcing us to constantly intervene, and weakening us through overreach.



If Israel viewed ISIS as an existential threat, it would have been brutally destroyed months ago. ISIS is primarily threatening Syria, which, as a client state of Iran, is just fine with Israel.



Israel has a large nuclear arsenal and the most advanced military in the region. It no longer faces any realistic existential threats. And if another nation actually went to war with Israel, I'd have no problem with the US coming to its aid as an ally. But I do take issue with Israel aggressively lobbying our government to be constantly waging war on its behalf in the Middle East. It's arguably not in Israel's best interests, and it's definitely not in ours.



We're at least nominally allied with almost every powerful state in that region. Iran is the only exception, which becomes more marginalized by the day. I do think we ought to remind Israel that they are our client (not visa versa), and we ought to seriously reexamine our relationship with the Saudi royal family. But I've never read a serious argument for completely abandoning the ME.



Our relations with Turkey have been pretty chilly since Erdogan came into office.



The Middle East is a horribly complex place. Needless to say, ME v. Israel (and then the US, should they "disappear") isn't remotely close to reality. Ceasing our aggressive military interventions in the region would likely improve security for both Israel and the US; but war is profitable, and jingoism is frequently deployed in both countries to secure cheap political points. When you've got a truly excellent hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
HOF post
 

Grahambo

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Whiskey is just the man. Plain and simple. You know I like you BB but Whiskey is my #1 (Sorry IrishLion.)

And in regards to Israel, I've told him this..if people only knew how often a representative from Israel is visiting. Basically, Whiskey is money.
 

palinurus

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It's important not to conflate homegrown terrorist threats with the likes of ISIS, because, while Islamism is frequently involved in both, the methods of prevention are almost entirely different. The Tsarnaev brothers immigrated to America as children, became US citizens, and had been radicalized fairly recently before the Boston Marathon bombing. We are not protecting ourselves from future homegrown threats by bombing ISIS; if anything, we're increasing that risk due to our constant meddling in the region, and by associating ourselves with despised regimes.



They have successfully attacked (and are continuing to attack) our freedoms, but only because we're allowing an irrational fear to trump our values.



I'm not an isolationist, but a realist in the mold of George Kennan. He's widely credited as the father of Containment, which was our strategy for defeating the Soviet Union. Kennan was a big proponent of narrowly defining our vital interests, and defending those interests with overwhelming force when necessary. But our current political elites either define our "vital interests" so broadly as to be meaningless, or refuse to define them at all. Which ensures that virtually every conflict on the globe is a threat to our "vital interests", forcing us to constantly intervene, and weakening us through overreach.



If Israel viewed ISIS as an existential threat, it would have been brutally destroyed months ago. ISIS is primarily threatening Syria, which, as a client state of Iran, is just fine with Israel.



Israel has a large nuclear arsenal and the most advanced military in the region. It no longer faces any realistic existential threats. And if another nation actually went to war with Israel, I'd have no problem with the US coming to its aid as an ally. But I do take issue with Israel aggressively lobbying our government to be constantly waging war on its behalf in the Middle East. It's arguably not in Israel's best interests, and it's definitely not in ours.



We're at least nominally allied with almost every powerful state in that region. Iran is the only exception, which becomes more marginalized by the day. I do think we ought to remind Israel that they are our client (not visa versa), and we ought to seriously reexamine our relationship with the Saudi royal family. But I've never read a serious argument for completely abandoning the ME.



Our relations with Turkey have been pretty chilly since Erdogan came into office.



The Middle East is a horribly complex place. Needless to say, ME v. Israel (and then the US, should they "disappear") isn't remotely close to reality. Ceasing our aggressive military interventions in the region would likely improve security for both Israel and the US; but war is profitable, and jingoism is frequently deployed in both countries to secure cheap political points. When you've got a truly excellent hammer, every problem looks like a nail.


My point is not that all terrorism is produced by the same group, but that it is produced by the same ideology. Working together or separately to attack the West and Westerners is all part of a broad goal. I'd argue that, if we do not oppose ISIS, the homegrown variety will see it as weakness and be emboldened to act more. I reject the notion that terrorists attack us because we "meddle" in the Middle East; they attack us because we oppose their ideology, which includes cultural expansion and attacks on infidels. 9/11 happened BEFORE we invaded Iraq or bombed ISIS.

You mention "an irrational fear" we have. You really need to define what the "irrational fear" is. You also need to tell me under what conditions this stripe of Islamics will stop killing civilians, stop trying to fly planes into building, stop trying to set off shoe bombs. That these people will, if unopposed, hurt civilians, e.g., seems like a pretty rational fear to me, and opposing them in any practical way makes sense to me. I really don't see an "irrational fear" at the root of opposing these people by reasonable means.

Re "existential threats" to Israel, there are not just existential threats and non-threats; there POTENTIAL existential threats and non-existential but dangerous threats, etc. That Israel hasn't attacked someone can be attributed to a lot of things: e.g., US pleas for restraint, desire for US to take lead, strategic considerations, etc. Again, my point isn't simply an anti-ISIS point, but a view that ISIS is just one part of a broader radical, violent muslim organism, that is a threat to freedom. Israel isn't being unreasonable when they attack those who are trying to kill their citizens.

The terrorists attack and race to fill a power vacuum. If the US cedes the field to them and stops reasonable interventions, the threat will expand. They will not leave us alone; the ideology is a poisonous one and ravenous, and it won't stop just because we roll up the sidewalk and stay home. We're kidding ourselves if we think they really won't continue to try to us harm.
 
C

Cackalacky

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My point is not that all terrorism is produced by the same group, but that it is produced by the same ideology. Working together or separately to attack the West and Westerners is all part of a broad goal. I'd argue that, if we do not oppose ISIS, the homegrown variety will see it as weakness and be emboldened to act more. I reject the notion that terrorists attack us because we "meddle" in the Middle East; they attack us because we oppose their ideology, which includes cultural expansion and attacks on infidels. 9/11 happened BEFORE we invaded Iraq or bombed ISIS.

You mention "an irrational fear" we have. You really need to define what the "irrational fear" is. You also need to tell me under what conditions this stripe of Islamics will stop killing civilians, stop trying to fly planes into building, stop trying to set off shoe bombs. That these people will, if unopposed, hurt civilians, e.g., seems like a pretty rational fear to me, and opposing them in any practical way makes sense to me. I really don't see an "irrational fear" at the root of opposing these people by reasonable means.

Re "existential threats" to Israel, there are not just existential threats and non-threats; there POTENTIAL existential threats and non-existential but dangerous threats, etc. That Israel hasn't attacked someone can be attributed to a lot of things: e.g., US pleas for restraint, desire for US to take lead, strategic considerations, etc. Again, my point isn't simply an anti-ISIS point, but a view that ISIS is just one part of a broader radical, violent muslim organism, that is a threat to freedom. Israel isn't being unreasonable when they attack those who are trying to kill their citizens.

The terrorists attack and race to fill a power vacuum. If the US cedes the field to them and stops reasonable interventions, the threat will expand. They will not leave us alone; the ideology is a poisonous one and ravenous, and it won't stop just because we roll up the sidewalk and stay home. We're kidding ourselves if we think they really won't continue to try to us harm.

Can one define "terrorist" in a comprehensive manner that warrants the immolation of our own country's original Bill of Rights? How about in a manner to include those persons here in the U.S. that are right wing neofacsists or the leftist pinky eco- commies? Should war profiteering count as terrorism? How about Western Civilization's propensity to continuously "misunderestimate" foreign persons rights as determined by themselves. Is not us imposing our own will on foreign cultures "terrorism?" Is it ok because we are the ones who are #TeamAmerica?
 
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palinurus

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Can one define "terrorist" in a comprehensive manner that warrants the immolation of our own country's original Bill of Rights? How about in a manner to include those persons here in the U.S. that are right wing neofacsists or the leftist pinky eco- commies? Should war profiteering count as terrorism? How about Western Civilization's propensity to continuously "misunderestimate" foreign persons rights as determined by themselves. Is not us imposing our own will on foreign cultures "terrorism?" Is it ok because we are the ones who are #TeamAmerica?

Why, this is all pure sophistry, with some grossly overbroad statements and transparent exaggerations tossed in. Of course, the skinhead who blew up the courthouse in Oklahoma was a terrorist, as was Ted the Guy Living Off the Grid and Sending Mail Bombs to corporate officers. I don't know anyone who said they weren't. For the rest, it sounds horrible, but you are assuming categorizations, rather than proving them.

Of course, if we are going to engage in nihilism, in a world where words have no meaning, or have all meanings, then there isn't much point in having a discussion. I just know, to paraphrase another, there's a difference between a guy pushing an old lady into the path of bus, and another guy pushing an old lady out the way of the bus; they aren't both just pushing old ladies around.
 
C

Cackalacky

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Why, this is all pure sophistry, with some grossly overbroad statements and transparent exaggerations tossed in. Of course, the skinhead who blew up the courthouse in Oklahoma was a terrorist, as was Ted the Guy Living Off the Grid and Sending Mail Bombs to corporate officers. I don't know anyone who said they weren't. For the rest, it sounds horrible, but you are assuming categorizations, rather than proving them.

Of course, if we are going to engage in nihilism, in a world where words have no meaning, or have all meanings, then there isn't much point in having a discussion. I just know, to paraphrase another, there's a difference between a guy pushing an old lady into the path of bus, and another guy pushing an old lady out the way of the bus; they aren't both just pushing old ladies around.

I feel my questions are pertinent and that a good grasp should be had before such policies are made that impact both foreign and domestic human beings so if my questioning is sophist, then maybe someone will consider such questions with an open mind. It's not nihilism to question such as I did. If we held our actions in recent history to the same nebulous criteria we very well would be terrorist by our own fear driven concepts. Our history in Latin America, our support of groups to get rid one group that leads to another power vacuum which we have to deal with again supporting some other disenfranchised group. Unending supplies of arms, drone strikes that are far more effective at generating terrorists than stopping terrorism... Is America and it's horrible foreign policy the one pushing the old lady out of the way or into the path?
 

Whiskeyjack

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My point is not that all terrorism is produced by the same group, but that it is produced by the same ideology. Working together or separately to attack the West and Westerners is all part of a broad goal.

"Terrorism" is a methodology which has been used by various groups with wildly different goals. "Islamism" is the problem ideology at work here, but the vast majority of Islamists don't have the destruction of the US/ West as one of their primary motives. Take the Taliban for instance. It's brutally violent and about as abhorrent as any regime comes, but it's very parochial in its aims-- establishing Sharia law in the Pashtun regions of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Most Islamist groups are like this; there are hundreds of them in southeast Asia that couldn't care less about the US (al-Qaeda was somewhat unique in that regard). Despite some provocative marketing techniques, ISIS appears to be similar to the Taliban; a brutally violent Islamist movement aiming to establish Sharia law in the primarily Sunni regions of Syria and Iraq.

So no, ISIS is not philosophically inimical to the West, and it's primary goal is not the destruction of the "Great Satan". Painting all Islamists with the same brush is dangerous for the reasons laid out by Cavanaugh in The Myth of Religious Violence.

I'd argue that, if we do not oppose ISIS, the homegrown variety will see it as weakness and be emboldened to act more.

If you read about the homegrown terrorists who have attacked us so far-- Hasan, Shazad, the Tsarnaevs, etc.-- it's pretty clear that adopting an even more aggressive military posture in the ME (what would that even look like?) would not have deterred these guys in the least. Positioning ourselves as the enemy of "global Islam" is one of the main factors in radicalizing these guys.

I reject the notion that terrorists attack us because we "meddle" in the Middle East; they attack us because we oppose their ideology, which includes cultural expansion and attacks on infidels. 9/11 happened BEFORE we invaded Iraq or bombed ISIS.

In bin Laden's 2002 "Letter to America", he explicitly listed the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, US support for Israel and sanctions against Iraq as chief among AQ's motives. And here's David Cross making the same point in a more humorous fashion.

You mention "an irrational fear" we have. You really need to define what the "irrational fear" is.

The odds of any random American being killed by a terrorist attack are 1 in 20 million. Which means you are statistically more likely to be killed by a toddler than a terrorist. So as soon as we start dedicating a similar amount of money, man-power and fear-mongering cable news coverage to the insidious toddler threat, I'd say it's pretty clear that our response to "terrorism" is insanely disproportionate to the danger it actually poses.

You also need to tell me under what conditions this stripe of Islamics will stop killing civilians, stop trying to fly planes into building, stop trying to set off shoe bombs.

Can you tell me under what conditions we could ensure that no one will ever take a firearm and engage in a mass murder again? For starters, we'd have to cage every mentally unstable American and repeal the 2nd Amendment. Would that be worth it? But mass murders are scary. Something must be done!

That these people will, if unopposed, hurt civilians, e.g., seems like a pretty rational fear to me, and opposing them in any practical way makes sense to me. I really don't see an "irrational fear" at the root of opposing these people by reasonable means.

Lots of assumptions here. What if leaving them alone is the best way to ensure they stop wanting to target Americans? What if telling Israel and Saudi Arabia to police their own fucking backyard would produce the similarly salient effect of reducing blow back? Even if we grant your assumption that they all hate the West and must be opposed, what's a "reasonable" policy for doing so? Are you comfortable with drone strikes that kill lots of women and children?

Re "existential threats" to Israel, there are not just existential threats and non-threats; there POTENTIAL existential threats and non-existential but dangerous threats, etc. That Israel hasn't attacked someone can be attributed to a lot of things: e.g., US pleas for restraint, desire for US to take lead, strategic considerations, etc. Again, my point isn't simply an anti-ISIS point, but a view that ISIS is just one part of a broader radical, violent muslim organism, that is a threat to freedom.

I understand your point perfectly. We hear it from the mouths of Congressmen from both parties on a daily basis. I'd argue that it's a dangerously simplistic way to approach a very complex problem. Painting in black and white like that ends up with a shredded Constitution and lots of dead women and children.

Israel isn't being unreasonable when they attack those who are trying to kill their citizens.

We've got an entire thread dedicated to this issue, so there's no point in relitigating this here. But see my response above about painting in black and white. There are a lot of dead Palestinian women and children at Israel's feet because of their indiscriminate shelling of Gaza.

The terrorists attack and race to fill a power vacuum. If the US cedes the field to them and stops reasonable interventions, the threat will expand. They will not leave us alone; the ideology is a poisonous one and ravenous, and it won't stop just because we roll up the sidewalk and stay home. We're kidding ourselves if we think they really won't continue to try to us harm.

How about we stop creating the power vacuums in the first place through a naive quest to bring liberal democracy to the benighted masses? Regional stability will require a lot of boots on the ground, and a lot of hard work by the Arab League. The American people have finally lost their appetite for the former (thankfully), but there's no indication that the latter is close to happening. I'm not advocating that the US simply pack up and leave. The British effectively managed global security through "off-shore balancing", which is something I'd like to see the US do a lot more of. But that requires a credible partner with whom we can work in the region, and when it comes to the ME, we don't have one.
 
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enrico514

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Funny, as of last week... US government’s counterterrorism chief Matthew Olson: “there’s no credible information” that the Islamic State (Isis) is planning an attack on America and that there’s “no indication at this point of a cell of foreign fighters operating in the United States” Isis not comparable to al-Qaida pre-9/11, US intelligence officials say | World news | theguardian.com

“The FBI and Homeland Security Department say there are no specific or credible terror threats to the US homeland from the Islamic State militant group” FBI: No credible threats to US from Islamic State - Washington Times
 

Irish#1

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I don't think there is ever going to be peace in the Middle East. There will always be a group pop up that wants to instill their interpretation of Islamic Law and will continue to kill anyone in the area who disagrees.
 

palinurus

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"Terrorism" is a methodology which has been used by various groups with wildly different goals. "Islamism" is the problem ideology at work here, but the vast majority of Islamists don't have the destruction of the US/ West as one of their primary motives. Take the Taliban for instance. It's brutally violent and about as abhorrent as any regime comes, but it's very parochial in its aims-- establishing Sharia law in the Pashtun regions of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Most Islamist groups are like this; there are hundreds of them in southeast Asia that couldn't care less about the US (al-Qaeda was somewhat unique in that regard). Despite some provocative marketing techniques, ISIS appears to be similar to the Taliban; a brutally violent Islamist movement aiming to establish Sharia law in the primarily Sunni regions of Syria and Iraq.

So no, ISIS is not philosophically inimical to the West, and it's primary goal is not the destruction of the "Great Satan". Painting all Islamists with the same brush is dangerous for the reasons laid out by Cavanaugh in The Myth of Religious Violence.



If you read about the homegrown terrorists who have attacked us so far-- Hasan, Shazad, the Tsarnaevs, etc.-- it's pretty clear that adopting an even more aggressive military posture in the ME (what would that even look like?) would not have deterred these guys in the least. Positioning ourselves as the enemy of "global Islam" is one of the main factors in radicalizing these guys.



In bin Laden's 2002 "Letter to America", he explicitly listed the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, US support for Israel and sanctions against Iraq as chief among AQ's motives. And here's David Cross making the same point in a more humorous fashion.



The odds of any random American being killed by a terrorist attack are 1 in 20 million. Which means you are statistically more likely to be killed by a toddler than a terrorist. So as soon as we start dedicating a similar amount of money, man-power and fear-mongering cable news coverage to the insidious toddler threat, I'd say it's pretty clear that our response to "terrorism" is insanely disproportionate to the danger it actually poses.



Can you tell me under what conditions we could ensure that no one will ever take a firearm and engage in a mass murder again? For starters, we'd have to cage every mentally unstable American and repeal the 2nd Amendment. Would that be worth it? But mass murders are scary. Something must be done!



Lots of assumptions here. What if leaving them alone is the best way to ensure they stop wanting to target Americans? What if telling Israel and Saudi Arabia to police their own fucking backyard would produce the similarly salient effect of reducing blow back? Even if we grant your assumption that they all hate the West and must be opposed, what's a "reasonable" policy for doing so? Are you comfortable with drone strikes that kill lots of women and children?



I understand your point perfectly. We hear it from the mouths of Congressmen from both parties on a daily basis. I'd argue that it's a dangerously simplistic way to approach a very complex problem. Painting in black and white like that ends up with a shredded Constitution and lots of dead women and children.



We've got an entire thread dedicated to this issue, so there's no point in relitigating this here. But see my response above about painting in black and white. There are a lot of dead Palestinian women and children at Israel's feet because of their indiscriminate shelling of Gaza.



How about we stop creating the power vacuums in the first place through a naive quest to bring liberal democracy to the benighted masses? Regional stability will require a lot of boots on the ground, and a lot of hard work by the Arab League. The American people have finally lost their appetite for the former (thankfully), but there's no indication that the latter is close to happening. I'm not advocating that the US simply pack up and leave. The British effectively managed global security through "off-shore balancing", which is something I'd like to see the US do a lot more of. But that requires a credible partner with whom we can work in the region, and when it comes to the ME, we don't have one.


I appreciate your post but maybe we've reached divergent points of understanding and belief.

I'm not painting "all Muslims" with the same brush, only painting all violent, radicalized Muslims with the same paint. As you know, the history of Islam extends far beyond 9/11. This is not the West's first brush with the expansionist and violent ideology. This goes back centuries. This wasn't created by George Bush or LBJ. I know some people agree with you regarding the causes of 9/11 and subsequent attacks, but I don't put much stock in the defenses of terrorists looking to justify their violence, whether it's Bin Laden or the terrorists who acted here (and acted, not in a vacuum, but in a world of constant pleas for the faithful to join jihad).

I, too, am saddened by the loss of freedom in the wake of 9/11. I criticized aspects of the Patriot Act when Bush was president, as well as the even worse transgressions of Obama. Some people seem to think they are okay now or were okay then, and such reactions depend on their political persuasion. I agree that the Constitution should be the protector of our rights and not something to be "gotten around."

I also agree that the ME needs to police the ME and that there is not much appetite for that. Maybe some of that is "let the US do it." Maybe the US does it because they in the ME don't have the heart to do it themselves. Either way, we live in a world that will have consequences for us if no one acts.

Our differences are these, essentially: I see this ideology (this aspect of Islam, not all Muslims) as a violent, expansionist one that needs to be opposed. What caused the vacuums is worthy of attention and consideration and we should learn from the past, but that's a separate issue from what to do when a vacuum is created and what our response should be who and what fills it. Doing nothing, or being in a minor support role (I'm not intentionally mischaracterizing your position, I just don't know what it is on this), is worse than doing what we've done. Obama declared victory in Iraq and pulled out. He could have cut a deal to keep troops there, which may well have prevented this ISIS mess. But in the vacuum we got this.

I won't open up the Israel issue, except to say that one side wants the other to be removed from the ME, and acts accordingly. One side is clearly the aggressor. I can agree with the need for more caution and care by Israel in its reaction to the threat, but the effect of the reaction to the threat can't become a justification for the greater evil of the threat that instigated the reaction.

You identify my view that radical Islam is a threat to freedom as "dangerously simplistic." You then imply that the view (I assume not me personally) is responsible for a "shredded Constitution" and the deaths of women and children. I won't categorize your opinions so harshly, and I don't know for sure, of course, what you think would be an appropriate response to the threat. But I think it's objectively true that radical Islam is a threat to those not willing to capitulate. This aspect may not affect us now (existential threat), but that is only a function of the other side's current capability. No one is worried about little Muslim sects, isolated in the mountains, insular and alone. But ISIS is not such retail Muslim shop. ISIS wants to establish (at first) a caliphate. Then, who knows? They have threatened Americans and their people have killed Europeans in Belgium and been caught in France with explosives.

Anyway, I think I respect your views and opinion, and I'll read up on the links you provide. But I do think the threat is real and, if we don't act, more people here will die. I grant you people will probably die regardless, and neither of us can prove what ifs. But history tells us the radical element here will not recede in the face of a vacuum. I'm not advocating "world policeman" behavior, only saying that we should take action in our national interest to isolate this threat and, if possible, reduce its strength or destroy it.
 

BobD

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There has never and will never be such thing as peace in the middle east.

People try to make killing religious fanatics that will, given the opportunity, kill us sound complicated. They need to be exterminated. Like roaches we will never kill them all but we can slow them down, manage infestations and hold them at bay.

Easy squeezy, lemon peazy.

If you don't have the stomach for it, don't watch, but it's gotta be done.
 

T Town Tommy

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Hitler was a third rate political activist and art school flunky... till he wasn't. He showed what unfetterred ambition based on ideological extremism can do if left unchecked. Radical Islamic sects, while maybe small and isolated, will become larger and more powerful unless checked. Today, sadly the US is the ones that usually have to do the checking. ISIS, while small, has shown the capability of amassing weapons and power at an alarming rate. Left unchecked, they could very well move towards dirty bombs, etc and use them to advance their extremism.

I have been critical of our President o much of his foreign affair decisions, and maybe pulling out of Iraq without leaving a residual force behind may have helped create much of the mess, but I do think he is right in calling on the rest of the countries in the ME to step up and stop ISIS. Sadly, it won't happen in the manner needed, especially since most of these countries are funding the breeding of radical ideology to begin with. For me, it comes down to us trying to police an area where the general population doesn't care about the police. It comes down to a no win situation with no real end game for us and our interests.
 

Grahambo

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Explaining the fight against ISIS. This is just about perfect. RT <a href="https://twitter.com/Paulbeirne">@Paulbeirne</a>: Confused? <a href="http://t.co/XOtp5bHqYv">pic.twitter.com/XOtp5bHqYv</a></p>— Matt Galloway (@mattgallowaycbc) <a href="https://twitter.com/mattgallowaycbc/status/515079042698330112">September 25, 2014</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

BGIF

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Explaining the fight against ISIS. This is just about perfect. RT <a href="https://twitter.com/Paulbeirne">@Paulbeirne</a>: Confused? <a href="http://t.co/XOtp5bHqYv">pic.twitter.com/XOtp5bHqYv</a></p>— Matt Galloway (@mattgallowaycbc) <a href="https://twitter.com/mattgallowaycbc/status/515079042698330112">September 25, 2014</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

So, 6 years later the troops were withdrawn and it's still Bush's fault for creating the J.V. and for allowing Iran to add some 18,000 centrifuges
 
C

Cackalacky

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Hitler was a third rate political activist and art school flunky... till he wasn't. He showed what unfetterred ambition based on ideological extremism can do if left unchecked. Radical Islamic sects, while maybe small and isolated, will become larger and more powerful unless checked. Today, sadly the US is the ones that usually have to do the checking. ISIS, while small, has shown the capability of amassing weapons and power at an alarming rate. Left unchecked, they could very well move towards dirty bombs, etc and use them to advance their extremism.

I have been critical of our President o much of his foreign affair decisions, and maybe pulling out of Iraq without leaving a residual force behind may have helped create much of the mess, but I do think he is right in calling on the rest of the countries in the ME to step up and stop ISIS. Sadly, it won't happen in the manner needed, especially since most of these countries are funding the breeding of radical ideology to begin with. For me, it comes down to us trying to police an area where the general population doesn't care about the police. It comes down to a no win situation with no real end game for us and our interests.
But why is the US the default check here? Or at all? At the end of WWII, there was a consensus by the West to try the Nazis as war criminals, provide them with defense attorneys and give them a "fair" trial (Nuremberg). They were tried with our direction/supervision but with the backing of the other European countries. Executions were given and carried out. It was deemed justice was served to those that were caught and in the light of history, it was a success. Mosad went on to find some of those that escaped and carried out covert operations to perform quick execution style justice.

Today, we exercise no such camaraderie or willingness regarding dealing with existential threats. Our politicians have even stated the Geneva Conventions are "meh, not applicable." LOL.

Regarding Iraq, we have no business there in the first place, and need not maintain any visible boots on the ground. The region needs to take care of itself, and our relationship with Saudi Arabia should be addressed. I honestly can't wait to become energy independent of this region so we can finally tell them to piss off.
 
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T Town Tommy

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But why is the US the default check here? Or at all? At the end of WWII, there was a consensus by the West to try the Nazis as war criminals, provide them with defense attorneys and give them a "fair" trial (Nuremberg). They were tried with our direction/supervision but with the backing of the other European countries. Executions were given and carried out. It was deemed justice was served to those that were caught and in the light of history, it was a success. Mosad went on to find some of those that escaped and carried out covert operations to perform quick execution style justice.

Today, we exercise no such camaraderie or willingness regarding dealing with existential threats. Our politicians have even stated the Geneva Conventions are "meh, not applicable." LOL.

Regarding Iraq, we have no business there in the first place, and need not to maintain any visible boots on the ground. The region needs to take care of its self. And our relation ship with Saudi Arabia should be addressed.

Comparing the West and the cooperation to the Nuremberg trials to the situation today is tremendously different. At that point in time, the war was won. Handing out and agreeing to the appropriate justice for those responsible for the atrosities was much easier to hash out.

Contrast that to today when the enemy is much less defined, harder to identify, and the very countries that we are asking for help in large part supplement these extremists through their religious clerics and through monetary means. But I do agree, the region has first responsibility... they just can't get past their own interests first. And that makes any campaign to build a coalition that agrees on anything much more difficult.
 
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Cackalacky

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Comparing the West and the cooperation to the Nuremberg trials to the situation today is tremendously different. At that point in time, the war was won. Handing out and agreeing to the appropriate justice for those responsible for the atrosities was much easier to hash out.

Contrast that to today when the enemy is much less defined, harder to identify, and the very countries that we are asking for help in large part supplement these extremists through their religious clerics and through monetary means. But I do agree, the region has first responsibility... they just can't get past their own interests first. And that makes any campaign to build a coalition that agrees on anything much more difficult.

I was also contrasting it as I judge the U.S. involvement in WWII a success story. One that should be reevaluated with regards to our current policy. Roosevelt was not gonna get involved until Brittain was at its knees. I would think that conservatives and libertarians would love the idea of a bit more isolationist policies but we really just have war hawks with profitable side jobs securing flow of munitions. I know.... My cynicism has no bounds.
 

Irish#1

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But why is the US the default check here? Or at all? At the end of WWII, there was a consensus by the West to try the Nazis as war criminals, provide them with defense attorneys and give them a "fair" trial (Nuremberg). They were tried with our direction/supervision but with the backing of the other European countries. Executions were given and carried out. It was deemed justice was served to those that were caught and in the light of history, it was a success. Mosad went on to find some of those that escaped and carried out covert operations to perform quick execution style justice.

Today, we exercise no such camaraderie or willingness regarding dealing with existential threats. Our politicians have even stated the Geneva Conventions are "meh, not applicable." LOL.

Regarding Iraq, we have no business there in the first place, and need not maintain any visible boots on the ground. The region needs to take care of itself, and our relationship with Saudi Arabia should be addressed. I honestly can't wait to become energy independent of this region so we can finally tell them to piss off.

Comparing the West and the cooperation to the Nuremberg trials to the situation today is tremendously different. At that point in time, the war was won. Handing out and agreeing to the appropriate justice for those responsible for the atrosities was much easier to hash out.

Contrast that to today when the enemy is much less defined, harder to identify, and the very countries that we are asking for help in large part supplement these extremists through their religious clerics and through monetary means. But I do agree, the region has first responsibility... they just can't get past their own interests first. And that makes any campaign to build a coalition that agrees on anything much more difficult.

IMO, one key difference is at the time Hitler was working toward world domination and was invading all the European countries, so those countries had skin in the game. If ISIS were to start invading a lot of countries, I think you would see greater support from other countries.
 

BobD

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The Israeli conflict, the Iranians, The Dallas Cowboys, Hitler, or the Saudis all are irrelevant when it comes to ISIS. We tend to get shit all jumbled together and in the end, end up with a bunch of unfinished crap.

ISIS cannot be allowed to exist and grow in Syria, Iraq or anywhere. Kill them whenever or wherever possible.

Starting a debate on anything in the US is almost a guarantee nothing will get accomplished.

The new American way: Talk our way into something, start it, then talk our way out before we accomplish anything .
 
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BobD

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Explaining the fight against ISIS. This is just about perfect. RT <a href="https://twitter.com/Paulbeirne">@Paulbeirne</a>: Confused? <a href="http://t.co/XOtp5bHqYv">pic.twitter.com/XOtp5bHqYv</a></p>— Matt Galloway (@mattgallowaycbc) <a href="https://twitter.com/mattgallowaycbc/status/515079042698330112">September 25, 2014</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I meant to ask you.....how did that fence jumper get by you? Are you slacking off over there?
 
C

Cackalacky

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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/opinion/the-ancestors-of-isis.html?_r=0
ANCESTORS of ISIS
CAMBRIDGE, England — IN the last few years, there has been a dramatic rise of a seemingly new type of polity: the Islamic rebel state. Boko Haram in West Africa, the Shabab in East Africa, the Islamic Emirate in the Caucasus and, of course, the Islamic State in the Middle East, known as ISIS, or ISIL — these movements not only call for holy war against the West, but also use their resources to build theocracies.

Though in some respects unprecedented, these groups also have much in common with the Islamic revivalist movements of the 18th century, such as the Wahhabis on the Arabian Peninsula and the great jihadist states of the 19th century. They waged jihad against non-Muslim powers, and at the same time sought to radically transform their own societies.

One of the first groups to engage in anticolonial jihad and state-building was the fighters led by Abd al-Qadir, who challenged the French imperial invasion of North Africa in the 1830s and 1840s. Qadir declared himself “commander of the faithful” — the title of a caliph — and founded an Islamic state in western Algeria, with a capital in Mascara, a regular army and an administration that enforced Shariah law and provided some public services. The state was never stable, nor did it ever encompass a clearly defined territory; it was eventually destroyed by the French.

Equally short lived was the Mahdist state in Sudan, lasting from the early 1880s to the late 1890s. Led by the self-proclaimed Mahdi (“redeemer”) Muhammad Ahmad, the movement called for jihad against their Egyptian-Ottoman rulers and their British overlords, and it established state structures, including a telegraph network, weapon factories and a propaganda apparatus. The rebels banned smoking, alcohol and dancing and persecuted religious minorities.

But the state was unable to provide stable institutions, and the economy collapsed; half of the population died from famine, disease and violence before the British Army, supported by Egyptians, crushed the regime in a bloody campaign, events chronicled in “The River War” by the young Winston Churchill, who served as an officer in Sudan.


The most sophisticated 19th-century Islamic rebel state was the Caucasian imamate. Its imams rallied the Muslims of Chechnya and Dagestan into a 30-year holy war against the Russian empire, which sought to subdue the region. During the struggle, the rebels forced the mountain communities into a militant imamate, executing internal opponents and imposing Shariah law, segregation of the sexes, bans on alcohol and tobacco, restriction on music, and the enforcement of strict dress codes — all hugely unpopular measures. Czarist troops confronted the imamate with extreme brutality, eventually shattering it.

In all of these cases, there were two distinct, though intertwined, conflicts, one against non-European empires and one against internal enemies, and both struggles were combined with state-building. This pattern is in fact not unique to the emergence of Islamic rebel states. The sociologist Charles Tilly once identified war as one of the most crucial forces in the formation of states: The foundation of a centralized government becomes necessary to organize and finance the armed forces.

At the same time, Islam was at the center of these movements. Their leaders were religious authorities, most of them assuming the title “commander of the faithful”; their states were theocratically organized. Islam helped unite fractured tribal societies and served as a source of absolute, divine authority to enhance social discipline and political order, and to legitimize war. They all preached militant Islamic revivalism, calling for the purification of their faith, while denouncing traditional Islamic society, with its more heterodox forms of Islam, as superstitious, corrupt and backward.

Today’s jihadist states share many of these features. They emerged at a time of crisis, and ruthlessly confront internal and external enemies. They oppress women. Despite the groups’ ferocity, they have all succeeded in using Islam to build broad coalitions with local tribes and communities. They provide social services and run strict Shariah courts; they use advanced propaganda methods.


If anything, they differ from the 19th-century states in that they are more radical and sophisticated. The Islamic State is perhaps the most elaborate and militant jihad polity in modern history. It uses modern state structures, including a hierarchically organized bureaucracy, a judicial system, madrasas, a vast propaganda apparatus and a financial network that allows it to sell oil on the black market. It uses violence — mass executions, kidnapping and looting, following a rationale of suppression and wealth accumulation — to an extent unknown in previous Islamic polities. And unlike its antecedents, its leaders have global aspirations, fantasizing about overrunning St. Peter’s in Rome.

And yet those differences are a matter of degree, rather than kind. Islamic rebel states are overall strikingly similar. They should be seen as one phenomenon; and this phenomenon has a history.

Created under wartime conditions, and operating in a constant atmosphere of internal and external pressure, these states have been unstable and never fully functional. Forming a state makes Islamists vulnerable: While jihadist networks or guerrilla groups are difficult to fight, a state, which can be invaded, is far easier to confront. And once there is a theocratic state, it often becomes clear that its rulers are incapable of providing sufficient social and political solutions, gradually alienating its subjects.

In this light, the international community should continue to check the expansion of groups like the Islamic State, and intervene to prevent widespread human rights abuses. But given that the United States and its allies are unlikely to commit the massive military resources necessary to defeat the Islamic State — let alone other jihadist states — the best policy might be one of containment, support of local opponents and then management of the groups’ possible collapse.

We need to recognize what these groups really are. Referring to them as a “cancer,” as President Obama has, is understandable from an emotional standpoint, but simplifies and obscures the phenomenon. Jihadist states are complex polities and must be understood in the context of Islamic history.
I thought this was interesting in context of the historical nature of aggressive Islamic revivalism. The most important points for me were that this is not new, that these types of states that develop are not stable or prosperous due to the inherent nature, and that "regional" external forces will squash it once it gets to a "state level." Also important as discussed is that it is esaier to deal with states than guerillas.
 
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BGIF

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I meant to ask you.....how did that fence jumper get by you? Are you slacking off over there?

Slacking off? Not at all. Simply enacting the President's model on perimeter security that has worked so well on the nation's borders. Following DHS protocols the jumper was given pamphlets to 27 federal assistance programs and was put on a bus to some unsuspecting state.
 
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Slacking off? Not at all. Simply enacting the President's model on perimeter security that has worked so well on the nation's borders. Following DHS protocols the jumper was given pamphlets to 27 federal assistance programs and was put on a bus to some unsuspecting state.

It just had to be a guy named Omar Gonzalez...
 

Grahambo

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I meant to ask you.....how did that fence jumper get by you? Are you slacking off over there?

Slacking off? Not at all. Simply enacting the President's model on perimeter security that has worked so well on the nation's borders. Following DHS protocols the jumper was given pamphlets to 27 federal assistance programs and was put on a bus to some unsuspecting state.

It just had to be a guy named Omar Gonzalez...

Emperor-Belichick-Has-An-Evil-Stare-GIF.gif
 
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