'23 FL RB Richard Young (Alabama Verbal)

[NDFAN2008]

Weren't we going to land Thomas Graham who went to Oregon but Kelly dropped the ball?

 

[dublinirish]

the RKG/differen aisle stuff is more about yeah you can recruit anyone you want but when they get to ND are they gonna be a fit/graduate/stay out of trouble ala the likes of Greg Bryant etc

 

[NDMatt91]

After Eagles-gate 2013, that fat turd just mailed it in like he was drawing an unemployment check.

Interesting that you mention Eagles-gate, because IIRC that ended up costing us Alex Anzalone, a solid player at UF when healthy who ended up being a NFL draft pick.

 

[Dale]

FWIW, we were all mislead to some degree on what level of recruiting ND could achieve. The RKG and Different Aisle bs was nothing more than a lazy excuse.

MF and a stellar staff are proving it. Just all the more reason to be thankful for what we have and where ND is going. It’s been fun to watch so far.

I think to fully past judgement it’d still want to see not only us actually sign this class but see in 2 years the result. Reality is BK did sign the 2011 class. 6 Top 100 players. 3 5 star defensive lineman. He then got gun shy or lazy or both from the result of swinging for the fences. The impressive comparison to that class is while a ton of blue chips it also had a ton of 3 stars which may point to not as much willingness to grind for every prospect but only a few. The most damming thing as it relates to BK era misses is the “RKGs” we didn’t get. Braylon James and Jaden Greathouse aren’t a new unlocked shopping down a different aisle. It’s the correct aisle. Somehow Del and company just couldn’t or didn’t want to do it. Getting blackballed by NJ and DMV powerhouses. Those are the worst parts.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Interesting that you mention Eagles-gate, because IIRC that ended up costing us Alex Anzalone, a solid player at UF when healthy who ended up being a NFL draft pick.

I'm skeptical of that. He was attending classes at UF just a few days later. I think it was a convenient excuse for a flip that was going to happen either way.

 

[WilliamWallace]

I think to fully past judgement it’d still want to see not only us actually sign this class but see in 2 years the result. Reality is BK did sign the 2011 class. 6 Top 100 players. 3 5 star defensive lineman. He then got gun shy or lazy or both from the result of swinging for the fences. The impressive comparison to that class is while a ton of blue chips it also had a ton of 3 stars which may point to not as much willingness to grind for every prospect but only a few. The most damming thing as it relates to BK era misses is the “RKGs” we didn’t get. Braylon James and Jaden Greathouse aren’t a new unlocked shopping down a different aisle. It’s the correct aisle. Somehow Del and company just couldn’t or didn’t want to do it. Getting blackballed by NJ and DMV powerhouses. Those are the worst parts.

I don’t disagree that Yes, we need to sign the class, and Yes, see results. And even though BK did some really good things, he was always behind when it came to things like player development, team preparation, developing a staff, and on and on.

Bottom line was it was his ship, I think his ego got in the way of taking that next step.

 

[Dale]

he was always behind when it came to things like player development, team preparation, developing a staff, and on and on

The recruiting is one thing and there were glaring misses in the topics you mention, but I would very much disagree he was “always behind” in all of those things. That’s a topic for another thread though.

 

[stlnd01]

the RKG/differen aisle stuff is more about yeah you can recruit anyone you want but when they get to ND are they gonna be a fit/graduate/stay out of trouble ala the likes of Greg Bryant etc

I think we forget how many high-end recruits BK went after early in his tenure, and who even came to Notre Dame, but ultimately didn't work out. He got burned a few times and got a lot more choosy about "fit" after that.

 

[notredomer23]

Did BK get burned, or did he get lazy because they were committed already? This staff isn’t changing their approach to recruiting much, committed or not.

 

[IrishLion]

It may have had some components of an excuse, but it certainly had some components of truth.

I don't remember any specific incidents or recruits, but BK got "burned" early on by going after and signing some very talented recruits that were either not good cultural or academic fits. He came right out and said that "fit" would have more weight in future recruiting decisions.

Just like anything else, even if it did have elements of truth initially, it may have become the go to excuse when we didn't recruit as well.

MFMF and co. are going to be walking a tightrope in terms of getting some of these stars to buy in and stay bought in if/when they sign on the line and show up to campus.

BK signed stars that he knew would need extra attention off the field, and even with Tony Alford doing his damnedest, there were some high-profile flameouts. You can't argue the results of the downshift to 'fit over ranking' really, even if (like me!) you think there's another gear to find.

The hope is that MFMF continues to (1) be more genuinely connected to his recruits and players, rather than coming off with some of the phoniness that BK is famous for, and (2) continues to outwork everyone, which would include staying in touch with his roster as they develop off the field, which will keep some of those 'at risk' guys engaged and available.

The fit-over-ranking thing worked, obviously, as it resulted in playoff appearances that were fueled by a deep roster lead by veterans that kept its composure and didn't blow up during the regular season like a more volatile roster might have... but it's also true that BK could have probably kept some of those highly-ranked flameouts around, had he been willing to put in more effort in both recruiting AND in terms of staying around/in touch with his roster. He was a distant CEO, which had pros and cons.

 

[Luckylucci]

It may have had some components of an excuse, but it certainly had some components of truth.

I don't remember any specific incidents or recruits, but BK got "burned" early on by going after and signing some very talented recruits that were either not good cultural or academic fits. He came right out and said that "fit" would have more weight in future recruiting decisions.

Just like anything else, even if it did have elements of truth initially, it may have become the go to excuse when we didn't recruit as well.

The University of Notre Dame literally kicked the starting QB, that just made it to the National Championship the previous season, out of school, for cheating. Along with our most talented WR and a 5 star DE. Then, forfeited those wins because of it, lol.

I liked your post but it seems like "some components of truth" is a massive understatement.

 

[Dale]

Zeke Elliott and Curtis Samuel both wanted to go to ND, but the staff didn't want Zeke at RB

That isn’t true on Elliott. I know it had some talk at the time and Zeke said something in a sound bite at one point giving it some life, but it’s not the whole story at all.

 

[Irish du Nord]

That isn’t true on Elliott. I know it had some talk at the time and Zeke said something in a sound bite at one point giving it some life, but it’s not the whole story at all.

What’s the whole story?

 

[Dale]

What’s the whole story?

Keeping it short, ND was recruiting him as a ATH, that’s true but it’s not like he wasn’t gonna have the opportunity to play RB. Heck Alford was his primary. He visited OSU after he was already about near set on ND and Urban locked that thing up with one visit with ways and/or promises you’d assume Urban Meyer to use at the time.

 

[ndinoxford]

Keeping it short, ND was recruiting him as a ATH, that’s true but it’s not like he wasn’t gonna have the opportunity to play RB. Heck Alford was his primary. He visited OSU after he was already about near set on ND and Urban locked that thing up with one visit with ways and/or promises you’d assume Urban Meyer to use at the time.

I had the chance to talk to Zeke at a party at OSU a few months before the national championship win. I believe ND was playing navy that weekend so I had on my ND polo. Long story short, I met him through a friend and I asked him straight up what happened in his recruitment because I heard how we recruited him as a DB. He told me ND was him dream school but he did not like the coaches, but loved coach Alford.

 

[stlnd01]

Did BK get burned, or did he get lazy because they were committed already? This staff isn’t changing their approach to recruiting much, committed or not.

I was referring to guys like Lynch, Tee Shepherd, Greg Bryant where we won the recruiting battle but where things went sideways once they got here. Whether that was the fault of the player or Kelly or the staff, I can't say, but we largely stopped pursuing those sort of "elite player but academic/cultural reach" recruits in the latter half of BK's tenure.

Will be curious to see how Freeman threads that needle over his first few classes, though of course there are also elite recruits who are very good fits for Notre Dame. A high hit rate with those kids is probably the secret here.

 

[FWIrish4]

MFMF and co. are going to be walking a tightrope in terms of getting some of these stars to buy in and stay bought in if/when they sign on the line and show up to campus.

BK signed stars that he knew would need extra attention off the field, and even with Tony Alford doing his damnedest, there were some high-profile flameouts. You can't argue the results of the downshift to 'fit over ranking' really, even if (like me!) you think there's another gear to find.

The hope is that MFMF continues to (1) be more genuinely connected to his recruits and players, rather than coming off with some of the phoniness that BK is famous for, and (2) continues to outwork everyone, which would include staying in touch with his roster as they develop off the field, which will keep some of those 'at risk' guys engaged and available.

The fit-over-ranking thing worked, obviously, as it resulted in playoff appearances that were fueled by a deep roster lead by veterans that kept its composure and didn't blow up during the regular season like a more volatile roster might have... but it's also true that BK could have probably kept some of those highly-ranked flameouts around, had he been willing to put in more effort in both recruiting AND in terms of staying around/in touch with his roster. He was a distant CEO, which had pros and cons.

This is where the current culture is so incredibly important. When you get on campus as a stud freshman, you have to adhere to certain standards. Not only standards from the coaches, but more importantly your veteran teammates.

I’m incredibly confident this roster and staff can handle “at risk” recruits. I don’t think we’re really shopping down that aisle anyway. MFMF has been clear they’re doing more work to identify ND kids than before, so they’re just not taking sketchy studs.

 

[Rogue219]

Agree on the NFL level but still think an elite running back is a difference maker on the college level. How many first downs did Kyren Williams single handily muscle himself to last year?

Get me the trigger man who is going to get to NYC in December and be drafted. Dante be thy name. Elite QB and Elite WR rule the day. It's what Freeman needs to upgrade. Recently the defense, OL, RB, TE have all been good enough to get them where they've been.

I'll be completely transparent and say that I have absolutely no idea.

 

[Rogue219]

I'm skeptical of that. He was attending classes at UF just a few days later. I think it was a convenient excuse for a flip that was going to happen either way.

Same. I was way more dialed into recruiting at that time and remember tracking that one pretty closely. So many of these guys that ND supposedly "missed" on was just a bunch of cake and watermelon lip service.

 

[Dale]

I had the chance to talk to Zeke at a party at OSU a few months before the national championship win. I believe ND was playing navy that weekend so I had on my ND polo. Long story short, I met him through a friend and I asked him straight up what happened in his recruitment because I heard how we recruited him as a DB. He told me ND was him dream school but he did not like the coaches, but loved coach Alford.

I think Zeke himself still has some revisionist history there but I’m sure BK wasn’t Freeman is I guess the end conclusion.

That 2013 class fumbled the bag on some RBs and still signed Greg Bryant and Tarean Folston. Ryan Grant, Zeke, Ty Isaac didn’t land. Probably BKs best class pound for pound still even with the misses like that, Anzalone, Vanderdoes etc and Redfield busting.

 

[Rogue219]

Ty Isaac.

File him in the "Must Get" folder of Must Gets that never got.

 

[T-Boone]

Get me the trigger man who is going to get to NYC in December and be drafted. Dante be thy name. Elite QB and Elite WR rule the day. It's what Freeman needs to upgrade. Recently the defense, OL, RB, TE have all been good enough to get them where they've been.

I'll be completely transparent and say that I have absolutely no idea.

Georgia was an exception. Ordinary QB. Great D.

 

[WilliamWallace]

The recruiting is one thing and there were glaring misses in the topics you mention, but I would very much disagree he was “always behind” in all of those things. That’s a topic for another thread though.

You’ve watched the same things I’ve watched for at least some time I’d imagine. But, you’re right, it should be discussed elsewhere.

 

[Dale]

You’ve watched the same things I’ve watched for at least some time I’d imagine. But, you’re right, it should be discussed elsewhere.

Yeah double digit win seasons

He can’t he behind in basically all forms of coaching and still get that output.

 

[Reaper97]

Yeah double digit win seasons

He can’t he behind in basically all forms of coaching and still get that output.

And you don’t have the nation’s longest win streak as a favorite & against non-ranked opponents if you are ill-prepared.
ND got to the point they beat every team they were supposed to, a few they weren’t, just not enough of the ones they weren’t.
Off talent alone this ND team is a double-digit win team. So if they only win 9, that means MF didn’t have them fully prepared for at least one game.

 

[jprue24]

Bottom line was it was his ship, I think his ego got in the way of taking that next step.

Couldn't disagree more. Post-2016 was Kelly putting his ego aside. Whether his hand was forced or not, he still made the changes. Changes that produced 5 straight 10 win seasons and 2 CFP berths. ND is now entrenched as a borderline top 5 program, a place it hadn't been since Holtz.

 

[WilliamWallace]

W

Yeah double digit win seasons

He can’t he behind in basically all forms of coaching and still get that output.

ait so we are still discussing it? Maybe you can rename it?

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Ty Isaac.

File him in the "Must Get" folder of Must Gets that never got.

Wasn’t the issue that ND wanted him to play defense? I think they were right about that one.

 

[IrishLax]

It may have had some components of an excuse, but it certainly had some components of truth.

I don't remember any specific incidents or recruits, but BK got "burned" early on by going after and signing some very talented recruits that were either not good cultural or academic fits. He came right out and said that "fit" would have more weight in future recruiting decisions.

Just like anything else, even if it did have elements of truth initially, it may have become the go to excuse when we didn't recruit as well.

Yup, it was Aaron Lynch + “Bang Bang Notre Dame Gang” (Darby, Shephard, Greenberry, Etc.) that convinced him that he was better off letting players come to him rather than chasing players. Lead to some very steady classes with virtually no decommitments and helped retool ND into having a roster with no holes.

But the laziness and other recruiting missteps clearly cost him players, and a lot of what he had to say was clearly propaganda. ND *can* sign elite players, he was *choosing not to* recruit like the big boys.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Yup, it was Aaron Lynch + “Bang Bang Notre Dame Gang” (Darby, Shephard, Greenberry, Etc.) that convinced him that he was better off letting players come to him rather than chasing players. Lead to some very steady classes with virtually no decommitments and helped retool ND into having a roster with no holes.

But the laziness and other recruiting missteps clearly cost him players, and a lot of what he had to say was clearly propaganda. ND *can* sign elite players, he was *choosing not to* recruit like the big boys.

Right. Under this recruiting status quo post BangBang plus changes post 2016, we hit Kelly’s ceiling. Kelly knew it. Jack knew it. We know it now if we didn’t already. Let’s see MF can elevate us.