2025 Master Thread

[Rockin’Irish]

Why do we continue to drool over 247’s Team Score?

All that matters is APR.

Freeman's crew had made huge gains the past two cycles. For '25 he's sunk back down to a more BK@ND level of 90.59

Yep and I’ll bet that APR increases by the time the 2025 class signs.

 

[NDPhilly]

we're going to end up in at least the mid 91s by the time the class signs, just was hope early that we could hit 92-93.

 

[Rocketman84]

It's almost like the staff doesn't realize they are actually good at recruiting.

To have three 5.6 rated WRs in this class is an absolute joke. Yes I think Terry and Burress are better than their rankings and I think Bettis is actually worse, but the odds of 1 or 2 of them becoming really good WRs is low. Then to take Hulak, Reiff, Anderson, Thurman so early is head scratching.

IT feels like for positions groups one year is high potential talent, the next year is depth. Obviously that's not how they're recruiting but this class is confusing with how they've accepted such early commitments from minimally talented players.

It looks good now due to #s so early in the cycle, but the class probably doesn't finish top 10.

Point blank period its Notre Dame and not Indiana or Miami (Ohio) so you have to recruit like it! There was a chart with 9 WR targets and not in any curcumstance do you take options #6, #7 and #9 in a class!! I mean what do you expect from that selection besides two transfers and maybe 1-2 years production from one at best!

 

[Rocketman84]

Unpopular opinion and sacrilege but I don't know as though recruiting under Freeman has been too much different than under Kelly when just looking purely at the ending results

Still finishing kind of mid in the final rankings

Although Freeman seems to be more mindful with ensuring slots get filled/roster management

Freeman's big value proposition was bringing in top 5 class type talent and that obviously hasn't materialized

They've done a good job of getting in on some guys early that turned out to be elite (Love, Cam Williams, Bryce Young) but other than KVA and the QB spot (which quite frankly has never really an issue for ND in general over the years outside of Rees being terrible his few years) there hasn't been a whole lot of pulling out elite guys from the other elite programs

I was expecting ND to be good for a Caleb Downs or two every cycle under Freeman and that really just hasn't materialized


I'm fine with them taking Terry because he's a little different. And sure take JBJ if feel obligated. But taking Mini Plax doesn't make sense to me if you're taking JBJ. Meadows should be in the class. And they've got to be able to pull an elite guy like Taylor from their own backyard or otherwise--what are we doing here guys?


Hulak is an okay early take type. Reiff is a good take no matter when. Thurman I could see at the time because of his potential--maybe things will pick up for him this year. Anderson definitely a headscratcher

Without finishing off with Meadows and Taylor or the like--this offensive skill class would be extremely disappointing compared to what had been built upon over the past two cycles

At quite a few schools those are good recruits but at a school like Notre Dame that's supposed to be competing for championships, you cant honestly say your competing by accepting commits from guys that cant make All-State let alone Honorable Mention AA at their positions. I can honestly tell you right now that quite a few of these guys end up transferring out because this level is above their talent level! Then were stuck with depth problems again.

 

[Rocketman84]

Kellys classes always seems to have had holes at position groups. Freeman's classes have been much more well rounded.

Kelly didnt get the depth needed at positions and Freeman has taken quite a few too many "projects " while turning away clearly better talent.

 

[BobbyMac]

Kelly didnt get the depth needed at positions and Freeman has taken quite a few too many "projects " while turning away clearly better talent.

Cooper Perry got turned away and JBJ got a spot. Thats an example of what you’re saying.

Give us some other examples.

 

[BeauBenken]

Kelly only ever had a couple significant transfers in — Cody Riggs and Alohi Gilman. Anyone else? Freeman has added several significant transfers in just a couple offseasons.

He has also raised the average recruit ranking.

But you truly can’t judge their ability to recruit until we see what happens with all these players by the end of their times here.

 

[Irish du Nord]

Kelly only ever had a couple significant transfers in — Cody Riggs and Alohi Gilman. Anyone else? Freeman has added several significant transfers in just a couple offseasons.

He has also raised the average recruit ranking.

But you truly can’t judge their ability to recruit until we see what happens with all these players by the end of their times here.

Skowronek, Coan, McCloud, Dump Truck Cain Madden

 

[a mike]

Kelly only ever had a couple significant transfers in — Cody Riggs and Alohi Gilman. Anyone else? Freeman has added several significant transfers in just a couple offseasons.

I'm not trying to detract from Freeman nor defend Kelly but doing a comparison between them on transfers is about as apples/oranges as it can get

Portal, NIL, etc has clearly changed the game for every school in the country over these last few years when it comes to transfers

 

[BeauBenken]

I'm not trying to detract from Freeman nor defend Kelly but doing a comparison between them on transfers is about as apples/oranges as it can get

Portal, NIL, etc has clearly changed the game for every school in the country over these last few years when it comes to transfers

Just like NIL has changed recruiting as a whole.

Probably not fair to compare how the two recruit until the players finish their careers.

I’d say the only thing you can compare right now between Kelly and Freeman is effort and I think it’s evident Freeman and team win there.

 

[PutuporShutup]

Just like NIL has changed recruiting as a whole.

Probably not fair to compare how the two recruit until the players finish their careers.

I’d say the only thing you can compare right now between Kelly and Freeman is effort and I think it’s evident Freeman and team win there.

Agree - Recruiting wise Freeman is setting up ND to be more talented every year and not have any major drop offs.

With that said, 2024 has to be a great year on the field because the his first 2 have been underwhelming. I'm not sure he can keep landing really good classes (maybe 2025 will be a slight step down due to the 2023 season) if the team keeps underperforming.

 

[a mike]

I’d say the only thing you can compare right now between Kelly and Freeman is effort and I think it’s evident Freeman and team win there.

Problem with that is this is major college football and not preschool

Its a results oriented business, amount of effort doesn't matter

Freeman 100% got the job because he was supposed to take recruiting to another level. Otherwise ND wouldn't have hired him as he'd only been the DC at ND and a DC overall for about a minute

Thus far he has not really accomplished anything on the recruiting trail that most any other new coach couldn't have which is a problem because he doesn't have the HC experience nor developed the acumen. His value proposition was supposed to be recruiting

ND has outlayed a ton of resources to him thru top notch assistants and playing the portal/NIL game

Having to resort or choosing to take recruits like JBJ, Mini Plax, Anderson, and some of the front seven guys in his third recruiting class isn't a great look for him

 

[Ndaccountant]

Problem with that is this is major college football and not preschool

Its a results oriented business, amount of effort doesn't matter

Freeman 100% got the job because he was supposed to take recruiting to another level. Otherwise ND wouldn't have hired him as he'd only been the DC at ND and a DC overall for about a minute

Thus far he has not really accomplished anything on the recruiting trail that most any other new coach couldn't have which is a problem because he doesn't have the HC experience nor developed the acumen. His value proposition was supposed to be recruiting

ND has outlayed a ton of resources to him thru top notch assistants and playing the portal/NIL game

Having to resort or choosing to take recruits like JBJ, Mini Plax, Anderson, and some of the front seven guys in his third recruiting class isn't a great look for him

Freeman got the job because he has outstanding leadership traits. You are correct that he needs to continue to win more and I think he will. But he is exactly the type of leader that thrives at ND, which in turn makes ND thrive.

 

[TorontoGold]

Problem with that is this is major college football and not preschool

Its a results oriented business, amount of effort doesn't matter

Freeman 100% got the job because he was supposed to take recruiting to another level. Otherwise ND wouldn't have hired him as he'd only been the DC at ND and a DC overall for about a minute

Thus far he has not really accomplished anything on the recruiting trail that most any other new coach couldn't have which is a problem because he doesn't have the HC experience nor developed the acumen. His value proposition was supposed to be recruiting

ND has outlayed a ton of resources to him thru top notch assistants and playing the portal/NIL game

Having to resort or choosing to take recruits like JBJ, Mini Plax, Anderson, and some of the front seven guys in his third recruiting class isn't a great look for him

He has taken recruiting to another level though. His three recruiting cycles he signed were 7/12/9 in the composite rankings. Kelly went 16/18/9 (Freeman at DC) in his last three years at ND. That is quite literally another level. May not be the UGA/OSU/Bama level but it's another level.

To the next point, absolutely he is doing a better job than any other HC would have done sans Saban/Smart would have done. Lets look at Wiscy since Fickell would have been the next most likely option - 2024 (23) 2023 (58) and Chryst was 2022 (44) 2021 (16). If we give Fickell an out for the 2023 class, his first full year wasn't as good as Chryst's 2021 year. So in the likely second option, there's no proof to say Fickell would have been able to elevate ND's efforts like Freeman has done.

Go look at Oklahoma's classes, they're ranked around ND's range, you see the signee's at the bottom? Those are the exact same types of rankings of the prospects you list as bad takes. This class is lacking the same star power that 24 had, but you literally can't just fill out the team with .95 prospects.

 

[BeauBenken]

Problem with that is this is major college football and not preschool

Its a results oriented business, amount of effort doesn't matter

Freeman 100% got the job because he was supposed to take recruiting to another level. Otherwise ND wouldn't have hired him as he'd only been the DC at ND and a DC overall for about a minute

Thus far he has not really accomplished anything on the recruiting trail that most any other new coach couldn't have which is a problem because he doesn't have the HC experience nor developed the acumen. His value proposition was supposed to be recruiting

ND has outlayed a ton of resources to him thru top notch assistants and playing the portal/NIL game

Having to resort or choosing to take recruits like JBJ, Mini Plax, Anderson, and some of the front seven guys in his third recruiting class isn't a great look for him

Issue is you or I don't really know how those players will turn out.

 

[BeauBenken]

Skowronek, Coan, McCloud, Dump Truck Cain Madden

Good recalls. Amazing how spacey my mind is at 30.

 

[NDMatt91]

Except there’s this thing called NIL that Freeman has to deal w that Kelly didn’t while at ND. Seems as if they are playing the game w transfers but not HS kids. Big difference.

The University could help Freeman out by allowing fans to start another collective or contribute to one. If the University is going to think it's gross to pay HS recruits but fine to pay transfers, then they need to be willing to collect as much money as possible. If players like Caleb Downs become available via transfer, then you need to bring as much money in as possible and buy him. The contribution of OSU fans, not necessary alumni, was apparently a big reason why OSU was able to offer Downs the biggest bag.

 

[lcaps20]

The University could help Freeman out by allowing fans to start another collective or contribute to one. If the University is going to think it's gross to pay HS recruits but fine to pay transfers, then they need to be willing to collect as much money as possible. If players like Caleb Downs become available via transfer, then you need to bring as much money in as possible and buy him. The contribution of OSU fans, not necessary alumni, was apparently a big reason why OSU was able to offer Downs the biggest bag.

I don't think we're lacking in the NIL transfer money department. I'm not sure Downs was ever coming here regardless of the bag.

 

[BobbyMac]

Problem with that is this is major college football and not preschool

Its a results oriented business, amount of effort doesn't matter

Freeman 100% got the job because he was supposed to take recruiting to another level. Otherwise ND wouldn't have hired him as he'd only been the DC at ND and a DC overall for about a minute

Thus far he has not really accomplished anything on the recruiting trail that most any other new coach couldn't have which is a problem because he doesn't have the HC experience nor developed the acumen. His value proposition was supposed to be recruiting

ND has outlayed a ton of resources to him thru top notch assistants and playing the portal/NIL game

Having to resort or choosing to take recruits like JBJ, Mini Plax, Anderson, and some of the front seven guys in his third recruiting class isn't a great look for him

What percentage would you say MF has improved recruiting over BK?

 

[Katzenboyer]

Issue is you or I don't really know how those players will turn out.

The other issue is that Kelly absolutely would've taken the guys he mentions in his post.

Also, look at Kelly's classes at LSU. Since he's been there, according to Rivals, his classes have ranked 5th (2023) and 11th (2024). Freeman has been 11 (2023) and 9th (2024).

That doesn't tell the whole story. Kelly's average recruit ranking for his two years are 3.8 and 3.57 (!!) respectively. Freeman's have been 3.83 both years. With all the advantages LSU affords as compared to ND, those numbers show to me that Freeman is bringing in better talent than Kelly ever did.

Freeman's been a step up on the trail. He's not at OSU/Georgia/Bama level yet, but he's still young.

 

[a mike]

What percentage would you say MF has improved recruiting over BK?

Lets do 33%

Freeman is definitely better at not leaving glaring roster gaps

He's able to pivot/salvage spots whereas Kelly never seemed to have backup plans. Especially early in his career where he'd swing for the fences

(Unsolicited rant--Unfortunately I think Kelly just kinda got traumatized after Darby, Shepherd, Greenberry class and the Lynch fiasco all hitting at once and that's when he started rolling out the RKG rhetoric and began settling on what he perceived to be safer options)

But otherwise its very difficult to objectively give one the nod over the other primarily due to Freeman's limited sample size

Like I said earlier--either side can cherry pick stats to support their side of the argument

And I never intended for this to devolve into a Kelly vs Freeman pissing match. I'm not some Kelly Fanboy nor do I dislike Freeman

My original overarching general gist point I was trying to get across is that there was a perception/thought that Freeman would have us swimming in the Bama, UGA, OSU pool on a more regular basis than Kelly did when he was hired--and that simply has not been the case to date

I think Freeman has done really well with McKnight and I don't think Kelly could've got in there. And holding onto Love was an impressive and underrated win too

But otherwise he hasn't really consistently pulled off any "upsets" on the trail nor has ND really even been bothering to compete too much with the Big Boys--which I personally find disappointing

If people want to point out that Kelly posted some 10-17 ranked classes out of a larger sample size or say that Kelly's 2013 class "doesn't count" because it had a lot of "busts" then they're more than welcome to have at it

I'm measuring Freeman against Bama, UGA, OSU, etc because that's where ND needs to be to realistically expect to consistently compete for national championships--and fair or not--that was the buzz/rhetoric coming out of ND's camp to substantiate/justify the hire. So that's the paradigm I'm choosing to operate within when evaluating Freeman's performance

 

[TorontoGold]

Lets do 33%

Freeman is definitely better at not leaving glaring roster gaps

He's able to pivot/salvage spots whereas Kelly never seemed to have backup plans. Especially early in his career where he'd swing for the fences

(Unsolicited rant--Unfortunately I think Kelly just kinda got traumatized after Darby, Shepherd, Greenberry class and the Lynch fiasco all hitting at once and that's when he started rolling out the RKG rhetoric and began settling on what he perceived to be safer options)

But otherwise its very difficult to objectively give one the nod over the other primarily due to Freeman's limited sample size

Like I said earlier--either side can cherry pick stats to support their side of the argument

And I never intended for this to devolve into a Kelly vs Freeman pissing match. I'm not some Kelly Fanboy nor do I dislike Freeman

My original overarching general gist point I was trying to get across is that there was a perception/thought that Freeman would have us swimming in the Bama, UGA, OSU pool on a more regular basis than Kelly did when he was hired--and that simply has not been the case to date

I think Freeman has done really well with McKnight and I don't think Kelly could've got in there. And holding onto Love was an impressive and underrated win too

But otherwise he hasn't really consistently pulled off any "upsets" on the trail nor has ND really even been bothering to compete too much with the Big Boys--which I personally find disappointing

If people want to point out that Kelly posted some 10-17 ranked classes out of a larger sample size or say that Kelly's 2013 class "doesn't count" because it had a lot of "busts" then they're more than welcome to have at it

I'm measuring Freeman against Bama, UGA, OSU, etc because that's where ND needs to be to realistically expect to consistently compete for national championships--and fair or not--that was the buzz/rhetoric coming out of ND's camp to substantiate/justify the hire. So that's the paradigm I'm choosing to operate within when evaluating Freeman's performance

How do you measure competing with the big boys? Conversely, let's say Freeman and the staff should put in more time on long shot prospects, when you start losing the gimme prospects because they don't feel like a priority since Freeman is chasing the 5 stars who won't come to campus - I find it hard to believe that anyone would shrug that off as "oh well, he's taking chances!".

Doing this will always lead you to disappointment, especially considering the last coach to take a program to that level took 7 seasons to get there (Dabo).

The buzz from people on the beat was that Freeman would put them on a path to elevate recruiting to start closing that gap. He has improved the talent pool and on field results are improving. To be disappointed on the basis he isn't at the Bama/UGA/OSU level isn't a reasonable take. The star prospects that Freeman is landing are takes from the UGA's of the world, look at Knight getting recruited by Bama still, or KVA by OSU at the end of the cycle. The name brand guys Freeman gets are national prospects that big time programs are in the mix for. Blake Fisher (2021 star) only visited UM and a handful of other smaller schools before committing to ND, guys like Mayer/Hamilton were recruited by the big boys, but often the rest of the top 5 signee's weren't recruited as heavily as the Freeman guys.

 

[a mike]

How do you measure competing with the big boys?

Competing would be getting unofficial/official visits, being in prospects top 3, etc

Freeman actually did very well with this in his first cycle with guys like Caleb Downs, Samuel Mpemba, Dante Moore, Keon Keeley, Peyton Bowen, etc. He even got that running back from Florida (Young I think was his name?) to come up on a whim for a look.

These would typically be the types of guys that would dismiss ND out of hand but Freeman was able to at least get their attention

I don't know if he got traumatized too like Kelly but since then ND hasn't really gotten in with too many of those elite type players besides McKnight--which again I've given him credit for several times within this thread

The name brand guys Freeman gets are national prospects that big time programs are in the mix for. Blake Fisher (2021 star) only visited UM and a handful of other smaller schools before committing to ND, guys like Mayer/Hamilton were recruited by the big boys, but often the rest of the top 5 signee's weren't recruited as heavily as the Freeman guys.

Okay operating under this choosen paradigm/criteria

Below are 247 Composite Top 150 national recruits from outside the midwest that did not have limited offers lists that were included within Kelly's first three full cycle recruiting classes--

Aaron Lynch
Ishaq Williams
Stephon Tuitt
Tee Shepard
Ben Council
Matt Hegarty
GA3
Greg Bryant
Tj Jones
Taurean Folston
Elijah Shumate
Jarron Jones
Ronnie Stanley
K Russell
Davonte Neal
Max Redfield
Hunter Bivin
Cole Luke
Issiac Rochell

For Freeman we're looking at the below, but maybe he will close strong or some guys will move up here in the 2025 class--

Braylon James
Bobocur Trarore
KVA
Guerby Lambert
Bryce Young
Kedren Young
Ivan Taylor
Duece Knight

So if Freeman can yet here still in 2025 add 11 more 247 composite top 150 recruits from outside the midwest--he will be as good as Kelly was in his first three years under one of the paradigms you have set for them for comparisons sake

If we wanted to circle back with the midwest kids too we're looking at--

Davarius Daniels
Ben Koyack
Gunner Kiel
Sheldon Day
Jaylon Smith
Mike McGlinchy
Steve Elmer

vs

Jeremiah Love
Charles Jugusah
James Flannigan
CJ Carr
Cam Williams

Then Freeman will need to add 13 more 247 composite top 150 recruits here yet in 2025 to match Kelly within the standard/paradigm you have set

Geez, now that I've compiled the lists--maybe I was giving Freeman more credit than I should have

Thanks, this was an interesting and informative case study

 

[TorontoGold]

Competing would be getting unofficial/official visits, being in prospects top 3, etc

Freeman actually did very well with this in his first cycle with guys like Caleb Downs, Samuel Mpemba, Dante Moore, Keon Keeley, Peyton Bowen, etc. He even got that running back from Florida (Young I think was his name?) to come up on a whim for a look.

These would typically be the types of guys that would dismiss ND out of hand but Freeman was able to at least get their attention

I don't know if he got traumatized too like Kelly but since then ND hasn't really gotten in with too many of those elite type players besides McKnight--which again I've given him credit for several times within this thread


Okay operating under this choosen paradigm/criteria

Below are 247 Composite Top 150 national recruits from outside the midwest that did not have limited offers lists that were included within Kelly's first three full cycle recruiting classes--

Aaron Lynch
Ishaq Williams
Stephon Tuitt
Tee Shepard
Ben Council
Matt Hegarty
GA3
Greg Bryant
Tj Jones
Taurean Folston
Elijah Shumate
Jarron Jones
Ronnie Stanley
K Russell
Davonte Neal
Max Redfield
Hunter Bivin
Cole Luke
Issiac Rochell

For Freeman we're looking at the below, but maybe he will close strong or some guys will move up here in the 2025 class--

Braylon James
Bobocur Trarore
KVA
Guerby Lambert
Bryce Young
Kedren Young
Ivan Taylor
Duece Knight

So if Freeman can yet here still in 2025 add 11 more 247 composite top 150 recruits from outside the midwest--he will be as good as Kelly was in his first three years under one of the paradigms you have set for them for comparisons sake

If we wanted to circle back with the midwest kids too we're looking at--

Davarius Daniels
Ben Koyack
Gunner Kiel
Sheldon Day
Jaylon Smith
Mike McGlinchy
Steve Elmer

vs

Jeremiah Love
Charles Jugusah
James Flannigan
CJ Carr
Cam Williams

Then Freeman will need to add 13 more 247 composite top 150 recruits here yet in 2025 to match Kelly within the standard/paradigm you have set

Geez, now that I've compiled the lists--maybe I was giving Freeman more credit than I should have

Thanks, this was an interesting and informative case study

I need to mention it because my brain won't let it go - Deuce Knight.

I think you're correct that the talent injection from Kelly was huge in the first three years. My "approach" was to look at how Kelly left it to how Freeman has improved it, as your point was on the idea that Freeman hasn't been a recruiting improvement on Kelly. I think comparing data from 2011 to 2022 is incredibly tough since the conditions are incredibly different without taking into account NIL. However, since I believe that football is a zero-sum game in recruiting since if you don't get the player he's going to your enemy.

So, if we're going to measure Kelly's success in recruiting under that idea, he still did not beat Freeman in the avg class comp rating as Kelly graded out as signing the ~10th ranked class and Freeman the ~9th.

The next point I would make that as recruiting isn't a perfect science I would take the position that having a class of ~23ish at a higher avg rating is a sign that one coach is the better recruiter. I'm not refuting the data that you've provided because those are facts. My position is just that a larger and higher rated group is one I would take over a smaller but more top 150 players. This position is further confirmed in that Kelly was able to sign a lot of OL in the top 150 but for "skill" positions on offense I counted it as 6 for Kelly which is the same as Freeman.

Looking at the class comp rankings Kelly was 9 (89.96) 17 (91.21) 5 (92.30) and Freeman has been 7 (91.82) 12 (91.77) 9 (91.46).

 

[allenm5333]

ISD did a recruiting hour on youtube. Both Chrisitan and Mike were pessimistic on Shank and Lange because of academics

 

[PutuporShutup]

ISD did a recruiting hour on youtube. Both Chrisitan and Mike were pessimistic on Shank and Lange because of academics

Dang..... Was hopeful for both. We need to pick it up recruiting at the WDE position, it's such an impactful position when you have a stud there. Hopefully traore becomes one and Thomas fills out while keeping or increasing his athleticism.

 

[SoIll]

ISD did a recruiting hour on youtube. Both Chrisitan and Mike were pessimistic on Shank and Lange because of academics

It was reported early on that Lange had "work" to do, but it was possible. With all the recent negative reports on Shank, that sounds not even remotely possible.

 

[NDMatt91]

It was reported early on that Lange had "work" to do, but it was possible. With all the recent negative reports on Shank, that sounds not even remotely possible.

Dang. His transcript must be pretty bad if that's the case. You'd think if Robert Hughes and Ian Williams could get in with 2.5 GPA's out of public HS that Shanklin should be able to get in.

 

[irish2104]

ISD also had an update said ND is moving on from Shanklin...

 

[arrowryan]

ISD also had an update said ND is moving on from Shanklin...

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